Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki - User contributions [en]

Lucy Warbeck

2024-09-12T10:45:35Z

DugBride: wrong first seen book?

Lucy Warbeck is one of the background characters in the [[Tiffany Aching]] series of books, sort-of-ish written for children. She is one of the coven that Tiffany encounters first in {{HFOS}}, along with [[Annagramma Hawkin]], [[Petulia Gristle]] ''et al''. By the third book ({{W}}), she has become a recognised [[Witches|witch]], and is in training to become a [[Witchfinder]] like [[Perspicacia Tick|Miss Perspicacia Tick]].

Even at this young age, the new generation of witches are developing the sort of amusing eccentricities and character quirks which can only get more marked as they grow older. For whatever reason - eccentricity, forgetfulness or perhaps just [[Boffo (Concept)|boffo]] - young Lucy meticulously makes up her hair every morning whilst incorporating a knife and fork into her coiffure. And don't you just know, in seventy years' time, Old Mistress Warbeck will be seen as weird by a new generation of witches, and the knife and fork won't even be noticed any more by her peers...

{{stub}}

[[Category:Discworld characters|Warbeck, Lucy]]
[[Category:human characters|Warbeck, Lucy]]
[[Category:Tiffany Series characters|Warbeck,Lucy]]
[[Category:Witches|Warbeck, Lucy]]

User talk:DugBride

2023-12-31T12:12:13Z

DugBride: Created page with "Speak?"

Speak?

Talk:Margolotta

2023-12-29T23:53:35Z

DugBride: adding inspiration notion

I cannot edit the article on my phone but durring the footballer meeting where lord vetinari(gasp!) drinks beer, it is revealed as she is the founding member of the black ribboners(temperence league) I think it was revealed in a earlier book as well but don't hold me to it ~~Frogz~~

==Which Margolotta?==
I've just encountered another suggestion (outside the wiki) that Margolotta is the font of all evil in recent Discworld history. Because she appears in the same book with the Evil Empire, she is accused of leading it. AgProv has written some condemnation here as well, and there seems to be great ambivalence about her character and contributions. I don't see anything in the canon describing her as anything but the font and promoter of the new order of progress and peace among the species. Wasn't she the force behind peace among the ancient enemies of Überwald, Vetinari's first teacher in political science and the rescuer of the last Orcs? Vampires are not sympathetic characters to start, but I think the point is that she has overcome the Vampire trope and Wizards have given up destroying the landscape and Detritus is a smarter Troll, some Dwarves can consider more than gold and Werewolves can be vegetarians (most of the time).

Is she a victim of sexism as well as speciesism? Vetinari is not necessarily ''nice'', he does what's necessary for the greater good. If someone takes the wrong door out of the Oblong Office we don't call him an evil despot. They're alike as two peas; Margolotta's just been at it longer. Why would Havelock Vetinari maintain this lifelong friendship with this evil person bent on mischief toward the world he's working toward? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:26, 25 April 2011 (CEST)

I agree, there has been no indication that Margolotta is particularly evil. I think that it not necessarily sexism, just the fact that we know so little about her. She is the only known character to attribute the problems in Überwald to, simply because she was alive at the time and has no alibi. We cannot say for certain that she was not evil then, but it seems unlikely from her behavior recently, particularly in [[Book:The Fifth Elephant|The Fifth Elephant]]. By the way, though, it was Vetinary who taught her, not vice versa. I will try to find the quote soon, but it was along the lines of "I'm sorry, you think I taught him?". (unsigned comment by [[User:Confusion]] 02:49, 22 December 2013‎)
:Vetinari and Margolotta are both forces for the improvement of the Discworld, but that's because they're both skilled politicians: don't take them too literally. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:58, 22 December 2013 (GMT)

==Inspiration?==
Just looking into the description of Lady Margolotta, and she is remarkably similar to UK sitcom character legend [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Life_(1975_TV_series)#Margo_Leadbetter Margo Leadbetter], hair, pearls, fashion and name are all very close.

==Picture Credits==

Lady Margolotta, on her first meeting with Vimes, as envisaged by Woschaebedip on deviantArt. A link to Woschaebedip's pages with lots more Discworld art is here:-
http://woschaebedip.deviantart.com/
This artwork appears here with the express permission of its creator and should not be copied elsewhere on the Web without her permission. Thank you!
:That picture is driving me mad! She looks like a Zombie. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:12, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
Or, I'm forced to conclude, a very unconvincing transvestite. Should we search for different? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 13:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
:That too. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:10, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
::Its kind of terrifying --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 02:53, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
:[http://ladymargolotta.livejournal.com/ This lady nails her!] --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

The scariest thing in the world: an intelligent Sarah Palin without the specs. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:35, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-18T12:00:51Z

DugBride: adding comment

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
:I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
::This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC) 
[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Detritus

2023-12-18T11:02:15Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Detritus
|photo=blank.jpg|
|name= Detritus
|age=
|race= Troll
|occupation= [[City Watch|Watchman]]
|appearance=
|residence= [[Ankh-Morpork]]
|death=
|parents=
|relatives= "''Granny''", nephew
|children= [[Brick]] (adopted)
|marital status= Married to [[Ruby]]
|books= {{G!G!}} {{MP}} {{MAA}} {{FOC}} {{J}} {{T5E}} {{T!}}
|cameos= {{SM}} {{M!!!}} {{NW}} {{TT}} {{MM}} {{SN}} ''[[Discworld Noir]]''
}}

'''Detritus''' was the first [[trolls|troll]] member of the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]], hired under Lord [[Havelock Vetinari|Vetinari]]'s "''special hiring procedures''," at the same time as [[Cuddy]] (a [[dwarfs|dwarf]]) and [[Angua von Überwald|Angua]] (a [[werewolves|werewolf]]). Before getting this job, Detritus had been a splatter (like a bouncer, but with more force) and hired muscle for various establishments in [[Ankh-Morpork]]. However, he came unstuck one night when instructed to splat six-foot Dwarf [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]], who, no doubt, had been brought up by Dwarfs to have an appropriately robust and non-nonsense attitude to any troll who tried it on. The fact Carrot laid him cold must have helped simplify things later in their Watch relationship, as regarding rank and seniority.

Detritus also had a brief career in [[Holy Wood]], where he met and fell in love with the troll [[Ruby]] (see {{MP}}). In fact, the initial reason why Detritus joined the Watch was to get a respectable job in order to appease Ruby. In {{T!}} we are told that their marriage is happy, but childless, which may be partial motivation for Detritus taking the drug-addled young troll [[Brick]] under his wing.

City trolls are generally not very smart because of the high temperature, and Detritus is dumb enough that even city trolls consider him stupid (for an example see the incident with [[Greebo]] in {{M!!!}}). Regardless, Detritus is another natural sergeant in a way very different from [[Fred Colon]]; Detritus has a big voice and can shout until the suspect confesses without knowing what it is that he is supposed to confess to. Detritus is also the main drill sergeant training new recruits, as the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]] grows. In the events of {{T!}}, Detritus is described as being as over-protective as a mother hen.

One of the reasons behind Detritus's emerging cleverness is the special helmet he is wearing which has a fan that cools his head. (Since trolls' brains are made from impure silicon, they work better when cooled.) The helmet has been constructed by his friend and first partner on the job, acting-constable [[Cuddy]], (deceased). In colder climates, (such as [[Bonk]] winters or the chill desert nights of [[Klatch]]), Detritus displays intelligent wit and humour, and if left exposed to the icy coldness of the [[Pork Futures Warehouse]] long enough, reaches extraordinary levels of intelligence; however this is also a near-fatal temperature for even trolls.

Detritus's weapon of choice is a [[Crossbow|crossbow]] called the [[Piecemaker]] which he modified himself. It was originally a 2000-lb-draw siege crossbow firing a large iron rod. It is now a crossbow that fires a large bundle of ordinary wooden arrows at a significant fraction of local light speed. Generally anything it is fired at is disintegrated, along with anything else behind it, and finds good use in opening up an entrance to a building, as well as an exit, with the same shot. Detritus is not very good at aiming with that weapon, but given its destructiveness it does not really matter. In any case, even when he aims, the arrows are capable of shooting outwards in all directions around him. The people around him get a bit nervous, because Detritus has never managed to understand the concept of the safety catch.

In ''Thud'' we get an explicit measure of how far Detritus has grown when [[Commander Vimes]] calls him "''one of [his] best officers''."

==One Successful Troll==
Detritus may very well be the single most successful character in the entire Discworld canon, moving from a semi-sentient, brutalized bouncer chained to a wall to a highly-regarded (at least by Vimes) senior sergeant in the Watch who makes very important and significant contributions to plot development in many of the major events in Ankh-Morpork. Detritus is also instrumental, (albeit not entirely responsible,) in helping heal the enormous rift between dwarfs and trolls by accepting all City Watch dwarfs as non-dwarf but Watchmen, by shaking the hand of [[Rhys Rhysson]] the [[Low King]] of the Dwarfs (see {{T5E}}) and being present during the events of {{T!}}, where the parley between the Low King and [[Mr. Shine]] the [[Diamond King]] of the trolls is brokered. Detritus's career in the Diplomatic Service has also seen him take the role of a Cultural Attaché.

(His position could be shared with Vimes, who went from Cockbill Street, quite possibly the poorest street in Ankh-Morpork, to being a knight, a duke, commander of the watch, not to mention the wealthiest man in the city. However, this could largely be because Vetinari enjoys winding him up.)

==Also See==
* [[Wikipedia:Troll (Discworld)#Detritus|Detritus's Entry]] on [[wikipedia:Wikipedia|Wikipedia]]

[[Category:Discworld characters|Detritus]]
[[category:Supporting characters|Detritus]]
[[category:Serial characters|Detritus]]
[[category:Troll characters|Detritus]]
[[Category:Watchmen]]
[[de:Detritus]]

Beggars' Guild

2023-12-15T22:54:46Z

DugBride:

Motto: ''MONETA SVPERVACANEA, MAGISTER? '' (''Spare change, guv'nor?'')

Coat of Arms: a shield quartered. In the top quartered, three dragons, courant et or, on a field, gules. In the bottom-left quarter a dragon, gardant et or on a field, gules. In the top-left and bottom-right quarters a pattern of caltraps, argent, on a field, azure. Some visitors to the city have questioned the shield saying 'what a load of dragons got to do with beggars?' This misses the point, as it is in fact a second-hand coat of arms. In fact most visitors don't ask this. The two most common questions by visitors is 'Why don't I have any money left?' and 'Um...which way to...um...you know...the '[[Seamstresses' Guild|ladies]]'?

Current leader: [[Queen Molly]].

The oldest Guild in [[Ankh-Morpork]] and one of the more powerful, topped with a weather vane shaped like a beggar with his tin cup to the wind. The Beggars control the different sorts of beggars allowed to operate and how many of them in each area of the city. Divisions include Dribblers, Mumblers, Mutterers, Walking-Along-Shouters and [[Foul Ole Ron]], during his tenure at the Guild generally considered to be in a class of his own, if only because no one will share it with him. A certain amount of leeway would be given to, say, a Mumbler who risked the occasional Mutter, but no Mutterer would dare attempt Walking-Along-Shouting, on pain of pain. Enforcers of these rules are unknown.

The president of the Beggars' Guild is called Queen or King and wears the traditional velvet gown. He or she often finds life difficult because, due to the high rank, he/she will have to beg for something extravagant, and very few people are prepared to lend a 16-room mansion (see the coronation, in ''[[Book:Guards! Guards!|Guards! Guards!]]''). The Beggars' Guild has a guildhouse, like many other guilds. The true spirit of beggary is to always beg, never pay money or render services of any sort, for anything (see ''[[Book:Men at Arms|Men at Arms]]''). Members found buying things with money, running errands for people, and so on will be punished. Due to this, the Beggars' Guild is actually among the richest guilds in the city as they believe money is to be begged for not to be spent. A lot of the money has, however, been invested in property across the city via a series of agents and shell companies. Many of the richer citizens would be shocked to learn who they rent their well-to-do houses from. It is always a bad idea to kick a beggar in Ankh-Morpork, as karma can come round very swiftly, with the bailiffs.

Like the [[Thieves' Guild]], the Beggars offer a form of [[Inn-Sewer-Ants|insurance]] as well as the opportunity for direct charity. For a small fee, they can guarantee that no aggressive, unsightly, evil-smelling members will show up at your convention, daughter's wedding, or other special occasion. If you fail to take this simple precaution, you would be amazed at the number of beggars with 'interesting skin conditions' and infectious boils who will show up and start socialising with your guests.

The beggars guild runs a highly efficient intelligence service. Beggars are found across the city, often overlooked and ignored, but they see and hear everything. This knowledge can he sold to the highest bidder, who in many cases turns out to be the [[Havelock Vetinari|Patrician]] (whose best offer is often "Do not let me detain you"). They can also locate people in the chaos that is the city, as [[Heretofore]] is able to use the beggars' guild to find [[Cribbins]] for his master [[Cosmo Lavish]].

Politically the Guild has supported both the Patrician and the Watch in the power-plays of the city. In {{FOC}} Queen Molly opposed the City Council when they suggested replacing Lord Vetinari with a malleable king in the form of Nobby Nobbs and tipped off Commander Vimes that 'he needed to watch his back' as he was an impediment to the conspirator's plans. In {{J}} when Lord Rust demanded the guild leaders vote to remove the patrician from office, after the surrender to Klatch, the Beggar's Guild was one of four who refused to sign, the others being; the [[Seamstresses' Guild]], the [[Guild of Ecdysiasts, Nautchers, Cancanieres and Exponents of Exotic Dance|Strippers' Guild]] & the Washerwomen's Guild. One wonders at Vetinari's youth to attract such support...

[[Foul Ole Ron]] and several other [[Canting Crew|beggars]] in his group used to be members in good standing in the Beggars' Guild. They are no longer members of the Guild because, perhaps, other members of the Guild would like somebody to look down on (see ''[[Book:The Truth|The Truth]]''). Foul Ole Ron's group has been, and may still be, the street salesmen of the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] newspaper. If the rule about true beggary is to be adhered to, this behaviour disqualifies Foul Ole Ron and his friends from the Beggars' Guild.

==Beggar Classes==

*Twitchers
*Droolers
*Dribblers
*Mumblers
*Mutterers
*Walk-Along-Shouter
*Demanders of a Chip
*People who call other people Jimmy
*People who need Tuppence for a cup of tea
*People who need eight pence for a meal
*People with a placard saying 'Why lie? I need a beer.'
*Beggar Lord
*Beggar King/Queen

*In a class by themselves; the [[Canting Crew]]

==Members of the Guild==

*[[Queen Molly]]
*[[Lettice Knibbs]] - maid to the Beggar Queen
*[[Cumbling Michael]] - Grade two Mutterer
*[[Dribbling Sidney]]
*[[Sidney Lopsides]]
*[[Cripple Wa]]
*[[Blind Hugh]]
*Ringo Eyebrows
*No Way José
*Whistling Dick

[[Category:Guilds]]
[[Category:Ankh-Morpork Businesses]]

Twoflower

2023-12-15T22:53:40Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Twoflower
|photo=Blank.jpg|
|name= Twoflower
|age=
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]

|occupation= Tourist, inciter of revolutions, prisoner, possible [[Grand Vizier]] of the Agatean Empire, [[Inn-Sewer-Ants]] clerk
|appearance= Short, bald, wears glasses

|residence= [[Bes Pelargic]], [[Agatean Empire]]

|death=
|parents=
|relatives= Unnamed sister mentioned in {{COM}}. He has an alter-ego on [[Roundworld]] called [[Jack Zweiblumen]].
|children= [[Pretty Butterfly]], [[Lotus Blossom]]
|marital status= Widower

|books= {{COM}}, {{TLF}}, {{IT}}
|cameos=
}}
When '''Twoflower''' first appears in {{COM}} he is the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]]'s first tourist. He strolls around the city of [[Ankh-Morpork]] looking for adventure and ''genuine'' native food, and taking pictures of everything with his [[iconograph]] (including a statue of the god [[Seven-Handed Sek|Sek]] after donating two rhinu to his temple), and several pictures at the [[Whore Pits]].

He is probably the most naive person on the [[Disc]], because he sincerely believes that no harm will happen to him since he is only a spectator. [[The Luggage]] who accompanies him and eats everyone coming too close helps protect him too, reinforcing this belief.

As an actuary, he also introduces the concept of economics (reflected-sound-of-underground-spirits, "echo-gnomics") to Ankh-Morpork and sells an inn-sewer-ants polly-sea to [[The Broken Drum]] owner [[Broadman]], who promptly sets fire to the inn to collect on the grossly overvalued Broken Drum. In the process Broadman kills himself and turns half the city into ashes.

The high rate of exchange between the [[rhinu|Agatean Empire's currency]] and the Ankh-Morpork [[Currency|dollar]] results in Twoflower's unknowingly overpaying for everything.

Twoflower's love of dragons (he was captivated by pictures of them in [[Octarine Fairy Book|The Octarine Fairy Book]]) allows him to conjure up a dragon (which he names [[Ninereeds]] after the man he was apprenticed to) when he visits [[Wyrmberg]].

The Agatean Empire normally opposes tourism (or people leaving the Empire for any reason whatsoever), but the [[Boy Emperor]] sanctions Twoflower's visit, and even instructs Ankh-Morpork's [[Patrician]] (via [[Pointless albatross]]) to protect Twoflower. The Empire's considerably more seasoned [[Nine Turning Mirrors|Grand Vizier]] asks the Patrician to kill Twoflower, so that Twoflower won't bring back the "disease of dissatisfaction".

When Twoflower arrives in [[Ankh-Morpork]], the failed wizard [[Rincewind]] is given the task of protecting him, and subsequently follows Twoflower on his journeys around the Disc in {{COM}} and {{TLF}}, the first two Discworld novels. On these journeys, Twoflower retains his optimism and naive öutlook, despite the fact he and Rincewind are almost constantly finding themselves in life-threatening situations. This could be at least partly due to the fact that most of the really dangerous stuff always happens to Rincewind. Eventually, after many adventures and saving the world, Twoflower decides to return home to the [[Counterweight continent]].

Twoflower appears again in the book {{IT}}. It seems that when he returned to the [[Agatean Empire]], he wrote a book titled ''[[What I Did On My Holidays]]''. This book presented an image of life very different from that known to the oppressed and isolated people of the Agatean Empire, and it sparked a revolutionary movement, especially since the Boy Emperor who sanctioned Twoflower's visit had long since died. Twoflower himself was thrown in prison, and then apparently forgotten. Rincewind meets up with Twoflower in the dungeons and frees him. Twoflower's two daughters, [[Pretty Butterfly]] and [[Lotus Blossom]], are among the leaders of the revolutionary group known as the [[Red Army]].

Twoflower's wife had been killed some time before in a fight between [[Lord Hong]]'s and [[Tangs|Tang's]] armies. As a result of this he ends up challenging [[Lord Hong]] (who is holding Rincewind hostage) to a duel. Twoflower is saved from certain death when the [[Barking Dog]] that was the exchange for [[Rincewind]]'s journey across the land crushes and explodes [[Lord Hong]], also killing [[Ronald Saveloy]] in the process. [[Cohen]] then names Twoflower his Grand Vizier, giving him instructions to pass on the word that "the Emperor is a literal-minded man" and fond of the phrase "heads will roll". After Cohen's departure from the throne at the start of [[the Last Hero]] this would have left the new Grand Vizier presumably in charge of the whole empire...for perhaps just long enough for it to mutate into the [[People's Beneficent Republic of Agatea]], which did away with the whole Emperor business and is now guided by the Chairperson of the Central Committee, named as a Madame [[Pretty Butterfly|Butterfly]].

[[Category:Discworld characters]]
[[Category:Leading characters]]
[[de:Zweiblum]]

Petulia Gristle

2023-12-15T22:52:58Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Petulia Gristle
|photo=Blank.jpg|
|
|name=
|age= 14 when introduced
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]
|occupation= Witch
|appearance= Young girl, rather round; tends to wear too much occult jewelery.
|residence= [[Ramtops]]
|death=
|parents=
|relatives=
|children=
|marital status= currently at least engaged.
|books= {{HFOS}}, {{W}}
|cameos=
}}

'''Petulia''' is a friend of [[Tiffany Aching]] and is being tutored by [[Gwinifer Blackcap|"Old Mother" Blackcap]]. She is particularly talented with pigs and, as a result, gains the nick-name "the pig witch". Her talent also wins her the [[Witch Trials]] in {{HFOS}}, when she performs [[the pig trick]]. What this trick actually is is not revealed. She first appears in ''A Hat Full of Sky'' and also appears in {{W}}. She is a member of the coven set up by [[Annagramma Hawkin]]. When with the coven, she has a tendency to mumble, stutter, and be extremely deferential, but when at work, she becomes self-confident and secure. In {{ISWM}}, this latter tendency appears to have found her a husband, the sort of stolid [[Lancre]] pig-farmer who values a woman's ability to tuck a pig under each arm, treat their ailments, and finally convert them to all the things pork is prone to becoming. While there is no record of the marriage, or at least not one available to us, {{W}} names the young man who has indeed noted her ability to carry a pig under each arm, and who is therefore keen on finding out more about her, as [[Matty Weaver]]. It is entirely possible this is the man who later became Mr Gristle.

Petulia is an expert at [[Pig-Boring]], which is the most humane way of slaughtering an animal prior to sausage and bacon-hood. She simply chooses her animal, and then talks to it in a most earnest monotone voice about trivial things of parochial importance until its eyes close and it slumps to one side, having by then given up the will to live.

Petulia is also, apparently, acuphobic. Being frightened of pins seems a drawback for one of veterinarian disposition, who would presumably be expected to inject her patients now and again. And a witch who has a phobia about pins might find the business with the wax doll rather daunting. (How does she attach those bits of the occult jewellry which are secured with pins, like brooches and some earrings?)

It is her misfortune to have been named after a ''very'' inappropriate [[Petulia|Goddess]]. This begs the question of what Mr and Mrs Gristle must have been thinking of... or whether they were aware of it. The far-off land (well, far away from [[Ankh-Morpork]]) they inhabit has only the occasional wandering preacher, mainly [[Omnia|Omnian]], to bring religious succour. For them to have an intimate knowledge of all of the 3000 gods and counting discovered by research theologians would be impossible.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Gristle,Petulia]]
[[Category:Witches|Gristle,Petulia]]
[[Category:Tiffany Series characters|Gristle,Petulia]]

Evadne Cake

2023-12-15T22:52:08Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Mrs Cake
|photo=Blank.jpg|
|name= Evadne Cake
|age=
|race= Human

|occupation=
|appearance=

|residence= Ankh Morpork

|death=
|parents=
|relatives= Great Uncle [[Erasmus]]
|children= Daughter, [[Ludmilla Cake]]
|marital status= Widow (though still talks to husband)

|books= {{RM}}, {{MAA}}
|cameos={{J}}, {{GP}}, {{MM}}, {{FOC}}
}}

'''''Don't ask.''''' – the [[Ankh-Morpork]] [[Post Office]]

'''Mrs. Evadne Cake''' is a psychic medium. Her size is small, but her hat and purse are extra-large. When Mrs. Cake sits with her hat on and cuddling her purse, she looks as if only her face is not covered with these accessories.

Mrs. Cake volunteers at all temples that she can find, taking over miscellaneous housekeeping duties and performing them efficiently. Unfortunately, sooner or later she invariably falls out with the priests (because she converses with the dead) and ends up leaving the temples in a mess because now nobody else knows how to fulfill the duties she has relinquished. Mrs. Cake is dreaded by all priests and priestesses across the continents, as far as the Lost Jewelled Temple of [[Offler]], in [[Klatch (continent)|Klatch]] (see ''[[Book:Reaper Man|Reaper Man]]''), and maybe farther. It is possible that Mrs. Cake can be considered a [[witches magic|witch]]. Besides conversing with the dead, Mrs. Cake also has the ability to turn on or turn off her precognition, a very useful tool while walking the dangerous streets of [[Ankh-Morpork]], but premonitions also make her conversation with normal people very confusing, because she tends to reply to a question right before it has been asked. Yet, if she has replied and then the person decides not to ask the question, she gets a [[Recursion|terrible headache]].

She has an amicable working relationship with her [[spirit guide]], [[One-Man-Bucket]], and knows how to get his full co-operation: setting fire to a glass of whiskey, so that its ghost lasts for just long enough on the other side, is her usual reward for a job well done.

Mrs. Cake has a daughter, [[Ludmilla Cake]], who is partly a [[werewolves|werewolf]] (in ''[[Book:Reaper Man|Reaper Man]]'']. Mrs. Cake now rents out rooms in her house to the undead, including the [[zombies|zombie]] [[Reg Shoe]], the werewolf [[Angua von Überwald]], and the [[vampires]] Count and Countess [[Notfaroutoe]]. Mrs. Cake is sensitive to the needs of the undead, such as the need for orthopedic gravel in the coffin, the need for a door handle that can be operated by a paw, and the need to leave a window open (for examples, see ''[[Book:Men at Arms|Men at Arms]]''). Mrs. Cake is also tolerant of the eccentricities of the undead, such as carrying one's own arm until it is sewn back on. By the time of {{MM}} she is even letting a room to one [[Mavolio Bent]], and that ''really is'' broad-minded.

She may be an unhappy medium, but she may also be psychically connected to the Goddess [[Czol]]. As evidence, see her position in the prehistoric postal pantheon by association. When Moist takes over the Post Office, the items on the "Dont arsk us about" list include two entries reading "Mrs Cake."

The full list is:

DONT ARSK US ABOUT:
*rocks
*troll's with sticks
*All sorts of dragons
*Mrs Cake
*Huje green things with teeth
*Any kinds of black dogs with orange eyebrows
*Rains of spaniel's
*fog
*Mrs Cake

And when Moist hires a very experienced golem, [[Anghammarad]], to be a postman, the [[Golems|golem]] recalls delivering messages in a past age:

‘You really used to deliver messages for kings?’ said Groat. 
‘Many Kings,’ said Anghammarad. ‘Many Empires. Many Gods. Many Gods. All Gone. All Things Go.’ The golem’s voice got deeper, as if he was quoting from memory. ‘Neither Deluge Nor Ice Storm Nor The Black Silence Of The Netherhells Shall Stay These Messengers About Their Sacred Business. Do Not Ask Us About Sabre-Tooth Tigers, Tar Pits, Big Green Things With Teeth Or The Goddess Czol’ 
‘You had big green things with teeth back then?’ said Tropes. 
‘Bigger. Greener. More Teeth,’ rumbled Anghammarad. 
‘And the goddess Czol?’ said Moist. 
‘Do Not Ask.’ 
 
She has a friend, [[Harms-Beetle|Mrs Harms-Beetle]], who lives in [[Welcome Soap]].

Evadne was also the first name of Dr Hinge, of Hinge and Bracket fame.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[Category:Supporting characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[Category:Human characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[de:Evadne Kuchen]]

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-11T12:34:09Z

DugBride: add comment

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
:I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-11T10:07:03Z

DugBride:

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-11T09:50:44Z

DugBride:

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can or worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-11T09:48:44Z

DugBride:

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can or worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair.
I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-11T08:53:45Z

DugBride:

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can or worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens.

File:Detrituspiecemaker.png

2023-12-09T14:22:22Z

DugBride:

== Summary ==
Detritus with his Piecemaker

User:DugBride

2023-12-09T14:18:48Z

DugBride:

Metaphorical main a shed, using wiki to research Discworld characters, sometimes I have questions 

If you want to to see work in progress on a reskin of the board game Oath: Chronicles of Empire and Exile go look at the BGG forum 
[https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 Oath: Stories of Discworld]

Evadne Cake

2023-12-09T14:17:04Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Mrs Cake
|photo=Mrs Cake.jpg|alt=Mrs Evandne Cake|Mrs Cake

|name= Evadne Cake
|age=
|race= Human

|occupation=
|appearance=

|residence= Ankh Morpork

|death=
|parents=
|relatives= Great Uncle [[Erasmus]]
|children= Daughter, [[Ludmilla Cake]]
|marital status= Widow (though still talks to husband)

|books= {{RM}}, {{MAA}}
|cameos={{J}}, {{GP}}, {{MM}}, {{FOC}}
}}

'''''Don't ask.''''' – the [[Ankh-Morpork]] [[Post Office]]

'''Mrs. Evadne Cake''' is a psychic medium. Her size is small, but her hat and purse are extra-large. When Mrs. Cake sits with her hat on and cuddling her purse, she looks as if only her face is not covered with these accessories.

Mrs. Cake volunteers at all temples that she can find, taking over miscellaneous housekeeping duties and performing them efficiently. Unfortunately, sooner or later she invariably falls out with the priests (because she converses with the dead) and ends up leaving the temples in a mess because now nobody else knows how to fulfill the duties she has relinquished. Mrs. Cake is dreaded by all priests and priestesses across the continents, as far as the Lost Jewelled Temple of [[Offler]], in [[Klatch (continent)|Klatch]] (see ''[[Book:Reaper Man|Reaper Man]]''), and maybe farther. It is possible that Mrs. Cake can be considered a [[witches magic|witch]]. Besides conversing with the dead, Mrs. Cake also has the ability to turn on or turn off her precognition, a very useful tool while walking the dangerous streets of [[Ankh-Morpork]], but premonitions also make her conversation with normal people very confusing, because she tends to reply to a question right before it has been asked. Yet, if she has replied and then the person decides not to ask the question, she gets a [[Recursion|terrible headache]].

She has an amicable working relationship with her [[spirit guide]], [[One-Man-Bucket]], and knows how to get his full co-operation: setting fire to a glass of whiskey, so that its ghost lasts for just long enough on the other side, is her usual reward for a job well done.

Mrs. Cake has a daughter, [[Ludmilla Cake]], who is partly a [[werewolves|werewolf]] (in ''[[Book:Reaper Man|Reaper Man]]'']. Mrs. Cake now rents out rooms in her house to the undead, including the [[zombies|zombie]] [[Reg Shoe]], the werewolf [[Angua von Überwald]], and the [[vampires]] Count and Countess [[Notfaroutoe]]. Mrs. Cake is sensitive to the needs of the undead, such as the need for orthopedic gravel in the coffin, the need for a door handle that can be operated by a paw, and the need to leave a window open (for examples, see ''[[Book:Men at Arms|Men at Arms]]''). Mrs. Cake is also tolerant of the eccentricities of the undead, such as carrying one's own arm until it is sewn back on. By the time of {{MM}} she is even letting a room to one [[Mavolio Bent]], and that ''really is'' broad-minded.

She may be an unhappy medium, but she may also be psychically connected to the Goddess [[Czol]]. As evidence, see her position in the prehistoric postal pantheon by association. When Moist takes over the Post Office, the items on the "Dont arsk us about" list include two entries reading "Mrs Cake."

The full list is:

DONT ARSK US ABOUT:
*rocks
*troll's with sticks
*All sorts of dragons
*Mrs Cake
*Huje green things with teeth
*Any kinds of black dogs with orange eyebrows
*Rains of spaniel's
*fog
*Mrs Cake

And when Moist hires a very experienced golem, [[Anghammarad]], to be a postman, the [[Golems|golem]] recalls delivering messages in a past age:

‘You really used to deliver messages for kings?’ said Groat. 
‘Many Kings,’ said Anghammarad. ‘Many Empires. Many Gods. Many Gods. All Gone. All Things Go.’ The golem’s voice got deeper, as if he was quoting from memory. ‘Neither Deluge Nor Ice Storm Nor The Black Silence Of The Netherhells Shall Stay These Messengers About Their Sacred Business. Do Not Ask Us About Sabre-Tooth Tigers, Tar Pits, Big Green Things With Teeth Or The Goddess Czol’ 
‘You had big green things with teeth back then?’ said Tropes. 
‘Bigger. Greener. More Teeth,’ rumbled Anghammarad. 
‘And the goddess Czol?’ said Moist. 
‘Do Not Ask.’ 
 
She has a friend, [[Harms-Beetle|Mrs Harms-Beetle]], who lives in [[Welcome Soap]].

Evadne was also the first name of Dr Hinge, of Hinge and Bracket fame.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[Category:Supporting characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[Category:Human characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[de:Evadne Kuchen]]

Petulia Gristle

2023-12-09T14:15:59Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Petulia Gristle
|photo=PetuliaGristle.jpg|Petulia Gristle with pigs
|
|name=
|age= 14 when introduced
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]
|occupation= Witch
|appearance= Young girl, rather round; tends to wear too much occult jewelery.
|residence= [[Ramtops]]
|death=
|parents=
|relatives=
|children=
|marital status= currently at least engaged.
|books= {{HFOS}}, {{W}}
|cameos=
}}

'''Petulia''' is a friend of [[Tiffany Aching]] and is being tutored by [[Gwinifer Blackcap|"Old Mother" Blackcap]]. She is particularly talented with pigs and, as a result, gains the nick-name "the pig witch". Her talent also wins her the [[Witch Trials]] in {{HFOS}}, when she performs [[the pig trick]]. What this trick actually is is not revealed. She first appears in ''A Hat Full of Sky'' and also appears in {{W}}. She is a member of the coven set up by [[Annagramma Hawkin]]. When with the coven, she has a tendency to mumble, stutter, and be extremely deferential, but when at work, she becomes self-confident and secure. In {{ISWM}}, this latter tendency appears to have found her a husband, the sort of stolid [[Lancre]] pig-farmer who values a woman's ability to tuck a pig under each arm, treat their ailments, and finally convert them to all the things pork is prone to becoming. While there is no record of the marriage, or at least not one available to us, {{W}} names the young man who has indeed noted her ability to carry a pig under each arm, and who is therefore keen on finding out more about her, as [[Matty Weaver]]. It is entirely possible this is the man who later became Mr Gristle.

Petulia is an expert at [[Pig-Boring]], which is the most humane way of slaughtering an animal prior to sausage and bacon-hood. She simply chooses her animal, and then talks to it in a most earnest monotone voice about trivial things of parochial importance until its eyes close and it slumps to one side, having by then given up the will to live.

Petulia is also, apparently, acuphobic. Being frightened of pins seems a drawback for one of veterinarian disposition, who would presumably be expected to inject her patients now and again. And a witch who has a phobia about pins might find the business with the wax doll rather daunting. (How does she attach those bits of the occult jewellry which are secured with pins, like brooches and some earrings?)

It is her misfortune to have been named after a ''very'' inappropriate [[Petulia|Goddess]]. This begs the question of what Mr and Mrs Gristle must have been thinking of... or whether they were aware of it. The far-off land (well, far away from [[Ankh-Morpork]]) they inhabit has only the occasional wandering preacher, mainly [[Omnia|Omnian]], to bring religious succour. For them to have an intimate knowledge of all of the 3000 gods and counting discovered by research theologians would be impossible.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Gristle,Petulia]]
[[Category:Witches|Gristle,Petulia]]
[[Category:Tiffany Series characters|Gristle,Petulia]]

Twoflower

2023-12-09T14:15:13Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Twoflower
|photo=Twoflower.jpg| Twoflower and his daughters
|name= Twoflower
|age=
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]

|occupation= Tourist, inciter of revolutions, prisoner, possible [[Grand Vizier]] of the Agatean Empire, [[Inn-Sewer-Ants]] clerk
|appearance= Short, bald, wears glasses

|residence= [[Bes Pelargic]], [[Agatean Empire]]

|death=
|parents=
|relatives= Unnamed sister mentioned in {{COM}}. He has an alter-ego on [[Roundworld]] called [[Jack Zweiblumen]].
|children= [[Pretty Butterfly]], [[Lotus Blossom]]
|marital status= Widower

|books= {{COM}}, {{TLF}}, {{IT}}
|cameos=
}}
When '''Twoflower''' first appears in {{COM}} he is the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]]'s first tourist. He strolls around the city of [[Ankh-Morpork]] looking for adventure and ''genuine'' native food, and taking pictures of everything with his [[iconograph]] (including a statue of the god [[Seven-Handed Sek|Sek]] after donating two rhinu to his temple), and several pictures at the [[Whore Pits]].

He is probably the most naive person on the [[Disc]], because he sincerely believes that no harm will happen to him since he is only a spectator. [[The Luggage]] who accompanies him and eats everyone coming too close helps protect him too, reinforcing this belief.

As an actuary, he also introduces the concept of economics (reflected-sound-of-underground-spirits, "echo-gnomics") to Ankh-Morpork and sells an inn-sewer-ants polly-sea to [[The Broken Drum]] owner [[Broadman]], who promptly sets fire to the inn to collect on the grossly overvalued Broken Drum. In the process Broadman kills himself and turns half the city into ashes.

The high rate of exchange between the [[rhinu|Agatean Empire's currency]] and the Ankh-Morpork [[Currency|dollar]] results in Twoflower's unknowingly overpaying for everything.

Twoflower's love of dragons (he was captivated by pictures of them in [[Octarine Fairy Book|The Octarine Fairy Book]]) allows him to conjure up a dragon (which he names [[Ninereeds]] after the man he was apprenticed to) when he visits [[Wyrmberg]].

The Agatean Empire normally opposes tourism (or people leaving the Empire for any reason whatsoever), but the [[Boy Emperor]] sanctions Twoflower's visit, and even instructs Ankh-Morpork's [[Patrician]] (via [[Pointless albatross]]) to protect Twoflower. The Empire's considerably more seasoned [[Nine Turning Mirrors|Grand Vizier]] asks the Patrician to kill Twoflower, so that Twoflower won't bring back the "disease of dissatisfaction".

When Twoflower arrives in [[Ankh-Morpork]], the failed wizard [[Rincewind]] is given the task of protecting him, and subsequently follows Twoflower on his journeys around the Disc in {{COM}} and {{TLF}}, the first two Discworld novels. On these journeys, Twoflower retains his optimism and naive öutlook, despite the fact he and Rincewind are almost constantly finding themselves in life-threatening situations. This could be at least partly due to the fact that most of the really dangerous stuff always happens to Rincewind. Eventually, after many adventures and saving the world, Twoflower decides to return home to the [[Counterweight continent]].

Twoflower appears again in the book {{IT}}. It seems that when he returned to the [[Agatean Empire]], he wrote a book titled ''[[What I Did On My Holidays]]''. This book presented an image of life very different from that known to the oppressed and isolated people of the Agatean Empire, and it sparked a revolutionary movement, especially since the Boy Emperor who sanctioned Twoflower's visit had long since died. Twoflower himself was thrown in prison, and then apparently forgotten. Rincewind meets up with Twoflower in the dungeons and frees him. Twoflower's two daughters, [[Pretty Butterfly]] and [[Lotus Blossom]], are among the leaders of the revolutionary group known as the [[Red Army]].

Twoflower's wife had been killed some time before in a fight between [[Lord Hong]]'s and [[Tangs|Tang's]] armies. As a result of this he ends up challenging [[Lord Hong]] (who is holding Rincewind hostage) to a duel. Twoflower is saved from certain death when the [[Barking Dog]] that was the exchange for [[Rincewind]]'s journey across the land crushes and explodes [[Lord Hong]], also killing [[Ronald Saveloy]] in the process. [[Cohen]] then names Twoflower his Grand Vizier, giving him instructions to pass on the word that "the Emperor is a literal-minded man" and fond of the phrase "heads will roll". After Cohen's departure from the throne at the start of [[the Last Hero]] this would have left the new Grand Vizier presumably in charge of the whole empire...for perhaps just long enough for it to mutate into the [[People's Beneficent Republic of Agatea]], which did away with the whole Emperor business and is now guided by the Chairperson of the Central Committee, named as a Madame [[Pretty Butterfly|Butterfly]].

[[Category:Discworld characters]]
[[Category:Leading characters]]
[[de:Zweiblum]]

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2023-12-09T14:13:24Z

DugBride: /* AI content and fan project promotion */

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.

Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
</div>

==Well, that hurts==
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

==New staff==
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators: 
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and 
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 
And belatedly, having opened his email: 
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'') 
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space. 
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

==Down time==
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

==Those missing facilities==
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

==CQ Vade Mecum==
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

==Page count==
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports: 
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." It gives the error code
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

==Rejects==
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

==Test==
Editing appears to work.
: Does editing still work?
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

==Server Move==
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

==Everything okay?==
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back? 
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

==Annotations (again)==
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC) Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.

:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

==...and then==
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

== Repeated annotations ==
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Re-hash==
''Recalled from the archives:'' 
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:

i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;

ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.

iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.

iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.

v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.

vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.

vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.

--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)

:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)

Some guidelines for annotators?

Useful annotations: 
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).

Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.

Useless annotations:

The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich. 
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.) 
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?

--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)

Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.”
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

==That was interesting==
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

==AI content and fan project promotion==
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
::I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

:::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can or worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things. Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair.

Twoflower

2023-12-09T12:01:14Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Twoflower
|photo=Twoflower.jpg| Twoflower and his daughters from Oath: Stories of Discworld
|name= Twoflower
|age=
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]

|occupation= Tourist, inciter of revolutions, prisoner, possible [[Grand Vizier]] of the Agatean Empire, [[Inn-Sewer-Ants]] clerk
|appearance= Short, bald, wears glasses

|residence= [[Bes Pelargic]], [[Agatean Empire]]

|death=
|parents=
|relatives= Unnamed sister mentioned in {{COM}}. He has an alter-ego on [[Roundworld]] called [[Jack Zweiblumen]].
|children= [[Pretty Butterfly]], [[Lotus Blossom]]
|marital status= Widower

|books= {{COM}}, {{TLF}}, {{IT}}
|cameos=
}}
When '''Twoflower''' first appears in {{COM}} he is the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]]'s first tourist. He strolls around the city of [[Ankh-Morpork]] looking for adventure and ''genuine'' native food, and taking pictures of everything with his [[iconograph]] (including a statue of the god [[Seven-Handed Sek|Sek]] after donating two rhinu to his temple), and several pictures at the [[Whore Pits]].

He is probably the most naive person on the [[Disc]], because he sincerely believes that no harm will happen to him since he is only a spectator. [[The Luggage]] who accompanies him and eats everyone coming too close helps protect him too, reinforcing this belief.

As an actuary, he also introduces the concept of economics (reflected-sound-of-underground-spirits, "echo-gnomics") to Ankh-Morpork and sells an inn-sewer-ants polly-sea to [[The Broken Drum]] owner [[Broadman]], who promptly sets fire to the inn to collect on the grossly overvalued Broken Drum. In the process Broadman kills himself and turns half the city into ashes.

The high rate of exchange between the [[rhinu|Agatean Empire's currency]] and the Ankh-Morpork [[Currency|dollar]] results in Twoflower's unknowingly overpaying for everything.

Twoflower's love of dragons (he was captivated by pictures of them in [[Octarine Fairy Book|The Octarine Fairy Book]]) allows him to conjure up a dragon (which he names [[Ninereeds]] after the man he was apprenticed to) when he visits [[Wyrmberg]].

The Agatean Empire normally opposes tourism (or people leaving the Empire for any reason whatsoever), but the [[Boy Emperor]] sanctions Twoflower's visit, and even instructs Ankh-Morpork's [[Patrician]] (via [[Pointless albatross]]) to protect Twoflower. The Empire's considerably more seasoned [[Nine Turning Mirrors|Grand Vizier]] asks the Patrician to kill Twoflower, so that Twoflower won't bring back the "disease of dissatisfaction".

When Twoflower arrives in [[Ankh-Morpork]], the failed wizard [[Rincewind]] is given the task of protecting him, and subsequently follows Twoflower on his journeys around the Disc in {{COM}} and {{TLF}}, the first two Discworld novels. On these journeys, Twoflower retains his optimism and naive öutlook, despite the fact he and Rincewind are almost constantly finding themselves in life-threatening situations. This could be at least partly due to the fact that most of the really dangerous stuff always happens to Rincewind. Eventually, after many adventures and saving the world, Twoflower decides to return home to the [[Counterweight continent]].

Twoflower appears again in the book {{IT}}. It seems that when he returned to the [[Agatean Empire]], he wrote a book titled ''[[What I Did On My Holidays]]''. This book presented an image of life very different from that known to the oppressed and isolated people of the Agatean Empire, and it sparked a revolutionary movement, especially since the Boy Emperor who sanctioned Twoflower's visit had long since died. Twoflower himself was thrown in prison, and then apparently forgotten. Rincewind meets up with Twoflower in the dungeons and frees him. Twoflower's two daughters, [[Pretty Butterfly]] and [[Lotus Blossom]], are among the leaders of the revolutionary group known as the [[Red Army]].

Twoflower's wife had been killed some time before in a fight between [[Lord Hong]]'s and [[Tangs|Tang's]] armies. As a result of this he ends up challenging [[Lord Hong]] (who is holding Rincewind hostage) to a duel. Twoflower is saved from certain death when the [[Barking Dog]] that was the exchange for [[Rincewind]]'s journey across the land crushes and explodes [[Lord Hong]], also killing [[Ronald Saveloy]] in the process. [[Cohen]] then names Twoflower his Grand Vizier, giving him instructions to pass on the word that "the Emperor is a literal-minded man" and fond of the phrase "heads will roll". After Cohen's departure from the throne at the start of [[the Last Hero]] this would have left the new Grand Vizier presumably in charge of the whole empire...for perhaps just long enough for it to mutate into the [[People's Beneficent Republic of Agatea]], which did away with the whole Emperor business and is now guided by the Chairperson of the Central Committee, named as a Madame [[Pretty Butterfly|Butterfly]].

[[Category:Discworld characters]]
[[Category:Leading characters]]
[[de:Zweiblum]]

File:Twoflower.jpg

2023-12-09T11:55:59Z

DugBride:

Twoflower and his daughters

Beggars' Guild

2023-12-09T07:32:39Z

DugBride: add pic

Motto: ''MONETA SVPERVACANEA, MAGISTER? '' (''Spare change, guv'nor?'') [[File:Beggers-Guild.jpg|thumb|alt=Tin Weathervane on top of the Beggars Guild|Weathervane on top of Beggars Guild]]

Coat of Arms: a shield quartered. In the top quartered, three dragons, courant et or, on a field, gules. In the bottom-left quarter a dragon, gardant et or on a field, gules. In the top-left and bottom-right quarters a pattern of caltraps, argent, on a field, azure. Some visitors to the city have questioned the shield saying 'what a load of dragons got to do with beggars?' This misses the point, as it is in fact a second-hand coat of arms. In fact most visitors don't ask this. The two most common questions by visitors is 'Why don't I have any money left?' and 'Um...which way to...um...you know...the '[[Seamstresses' Guild|ladies]]'?

Current leader: [[Queen Molly]].

The oldest Guild in [[Ankh-Morpork]] and one of the more powerful, topped with a weather vane shaped like a beggar with his tin cup to the wind. The Beggars control the different sorts of beggars allowed to operate and how many of them in each area of the city. Divisions include Dribblers, Mumblers, Mutterers, Walking-Along-Shouters and [[Foul Ole Ron]], during his tenure at the Guild generally considered to be in a class of his own, if only because no one will share it with him. A certain amount of leeway would be given to, say, a Mumbler who risked the occasional Mutter, but no Mutterer would dare attempt Walking-Along-Shouting, on pain of pain. Enforcers of these rules are unknown.

The president of the Beggars' Guild is called Queen or King and wears the traditional velvet gown. He or she often finds life difficult because, due to the high rank, he/she will have to beg for something extravagant, and very few people are prepared to lend a 16-room mansion (see the coronation, in ''[[Book:Guards! Guards!|Guards! Guards!]]''). The Beggars' Guild has a guildhouse, like many other guilds. The true spirit of beggary is to always beg, never pay money or render services of any sort, for anything (see ''[[Book:Men at Arms|Men at Arms]]''). Members found buying things with money, running errands for people, and so on will be punished. Due to this, the Beggars' Guild is actually among the richest guilds in the city as they believe money is to be begged for not to be spent. A lot of the money has, however, been invested in property across the city via a series of agents and shell companies. Many of the richer citizens would be shocked to learn who they rent their well-to-do houses from. It is always a bad idea to kick a beggar in Ankh-Morpork, as karma can come round very swiftly, with the bailiffs.

Like the [[Thieves' Guild]], the Beggars offer a form of [[Inn-Sewer-Ants|insurance]] as well as the opportunity for direct charity. For a small fee, they can guarantee that no aggressive, unsightly, evil-smelling members will show up at your convention, daughter's wedding, or other special occasion. If you fail to take this simple precaution, you would be amazed at the number of beggars with 'interesting skin conditions' and infectious boils who will show up and start socialising with your guests.

The beggars guild runs a highly efficient intelligence service. Beggars are found across the city, often overlooked and ignored, but they see and hear everything. This knowledge can he sold to the highest bidder, who in many cases turns out to be the [[Havelock Vetinari|Patrician]] (whose best offer is often "Do not let me detain you"). They can also locate people in the chaos that is the city, as [[Heretofore]] is able to use the beggars' guild to find [[Cribbins]] for his master [[Cosmo Lavish]].

Politically the Guild has supported both the Patrician and the Watch in the power-plays of the city. In {{FOC}} Queen Molly opposed the City Council when they suggested replacing Lord Vetinari with a malleable king in the form of Nobby Nobbs and tipped off Commander Vimes that 'he needed to watch his back' as he was an impediment to the conspirator's plans. In {{J}} when Lord Rust demanded the guild leaders vote to remove the patrician from office, after the surrender to Klatch, the Beggar's Guild was one of four who refused to sign, the others being; the [[Seamstresses' Guild]], the [[Guild of Ecdysiasts, Nautchers, Cancanieres and Exponents of Exotic Dance|Strippers' Guild]] & the Washerwomen's Guild. One wonders at Vetinari's youth to attract such support...

[[Foul Ole Ron]] and several other [[Canting Crew|beggars]] in his group used to be members in good standing in the Beggars' Guild. They are no longer members of the Guild because, perhaps, other members of the Guild would like somebody to look down on (see ''[[Book:The Truth|The Truth]]''). Foul Ole Ron's group has been, and may still be, the street salesmen of the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] newspaper. If the rule about true beggary is to be adhered to, this behaviour disqualifies Foul Ole Ron and his friends from the Beggars' Guild.

==Beggar Classes==

*Twitchers
*Droolers
*Dribblers
*Mumblers
*Mutterers
*Walk-Along-Shouter
*Demanders of a Chip
*People who call other people Jimmy
*People who need Tuppence for a cup of tea
*People who need eight pence for a meal
*People with a placard saying 'Why lie? I need a beer.'
*Beggar Lord
*Beggar King/Queen

*In a class by themselves; the [[Canting Crew]]

==Members of the Guild==

*[[Queen Molly]]
*[[Lettice Knibbs]] - maid to the Beggar Queen
*[[Cumbling Michael]] - Grade two Mutterer
*[[Dribbling Sidney]]
*[[Sidney Lopsides]]
*[[Cripple Wa]]
*[[Blind Hugh]]
*Ringo Eyebrows
*No Way José
*Whistling Dick

[[Category:Guilds]]
[[Category:Ankh-Morpork Businesses]]

File:Beggers-Guild.jpg

2023-12-09T07:24:26Z

DugBride:

Weathervane on the Beggars guild described in Jingo

User:DugBride

2023-12-06T10:51:21Z

DugBride:

Metaphorical main a shed, using wiki to research Discworld characters whilst I wait for free goes on the AI image generation. Now filling in image blanks when I come across them. 

If you want to to see work in progress on a reskin of the board game Oath: Chronicles of Empire and Exile go look at the BGG forum 
[https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 Oath: Stories of Discworld]

User:DugBride

2023-12-06T10:50:16Z

DugBride: Created page with " Metaphorical main a shed, using wiki to research Discworld characters whilst wait for free goes on the AI image generation. Now filling in image blanks when I come across them. If you want o to see work in progress on a reskin of the board game Oath: Chronicles of Empire and Exile go look at the BGG forum [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 Oath: Stories of Discworld]"

Metaphorical main a shed, using wiki to research Discworld characters whilst wait for free goes on the AI image generation. Now filling in image blanks when I come across them.
If you want o to see work in progress on a reskin of the board game Oath: Chronicles of Empire and Exile go look at the BGG forum [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 Oath: Stories of Discworld]

Petulia Gristle

2023-12-06T10:41:31Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Petulia Gristle
|photo=PetuliaGristle.jpg|Petulia Gristle with pigs from Oath: Stories of Discworld
|
|name=
|age= 14 when introduced
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]
|occupation= Witch
|appearance= Young girl, rather round; tends to wear too much occult jewelery.
|residence= [[Ramtops]]
|death=
|parents=
|relatives=
|children=
|marital status= currently at least engaged.
|books= {{HFOS}}, {{W}}
|cameos=
}}

'''Petulia''' is a friend of [[Tiffany Aching]] and is being tutored by [[Gwinifer Blackcap|"Old Mother" Blackcap]]. She is particularly talented with pigs and, as a result, gains the nick-name "the pig witch". Her talent also wins her the [[Witch Trials]] in {{HFOS}}, when she performs [[the pig trick]]. What this trick actually is is not revealed. She first appears in ''A Hat Full of Sky'' and also appears in {{W}}. She is a member of the coven set up by [[Annagramma Hawkin]]. When with the coven, she has a tendency to mumble, stutter, and be extremely deferential, but when at work, she becomes self-confident and secure. In {{ISWM}}, this latter tendency appears to have found her a husband, the sort of stolid [[Lancre]] pig-farmer who values a woman's ability to tuck a pig under each arm, treat their ailments, and finally convert them to all the things pork is prone to becoming. While there is no record of the marriage, or at least not one available to us, {{W}} names the young man who has indeed noted her ability to carry a pig under each arm, and who is therefore keen on finding out more about her, as [[Matty Weaver]]. It is entirely possible this is the man who later became Mr Gristle.

Petulia is an expert at [[Pig-Boring]], which is the most humane way of slaughtering an animal prior to sausage and bacon-hood. She simply chooses her animal, and then talks to it in a most earnest monotone voice about trivial things of parochial importance until its eyes close and it slumps to one side, having by then given up the will to live.

Petulia is also, apparently, acuphobic. Being frightened of pins seems a drawback for one of veterinarian disposition, who would presumably be expected to inject her patients now and again. And a witch who has a phobia about pins might find the business with the wax doll rather daunting. (How does she attach those bits of the occult jewellry which are secured with pins, like brooches and some earrings?)

It is her misfortune to have been named after a ''very'' inappropriate [[Petulia|Goddess]]. This begs the question of what Mr and Mrs Gristle must have been thinking of... or whether they were aware of it. The far-off land (well, far away from [[Ankh-Morpork]]) they inhabit has only the occasional wandering preacher, mainly [[Omnia|Omnian]], to bring religious succour. For them to have an intimate knowledge of all of the 3000 gods and counting discovered by research theologians would be impossible.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Gristle,Petulia]]
[[Category:Witches|Gristle,Petulia]]
[[Category:Tiffany Series characters|Gristle,Petulia]]

File:PetuliaGristle.jpg

2023-12-06T10:37:47Z

DugBride:

Portrait of Petulia Gristle with pigs

Evadne Cake

2023-12-06T10:30:38Z

DugBride:

{{Character Data
|title= Mrs Cake
|photo=Mrs Cake.jpg|alt=Mrs Evandne Cake|Mrs Cake created for Oath: Stories of Discworld

|name= Evadne Cake
|age=
|race= Human

|occupation=
|appearance=

|residence= Ankh Morpork

|death=
|parents=
|relatives= Great Uncle [[Erasmus]]
|children= Daughter, [[Ludmilla Cake]]
|marital status= Widow (though still talks to husband)

|books= {{RM}}, {{MAA}}
|cameos={{J}}, {{GP}}, {{MM}}, {{FOC}}
}}

'''''Don't ask.''''' – the [[Ankh-Morpork]] [[Post Office]]

'''Mrs. Evadne Cake''' is a psychic medium. Her size is small, but her hat and purse are extra-large. When Mrs. Cake sits with her hat on and cuddling her purse, she looks as if only her face is not covered with these accessories.

Mrs. Cake volunteers at all temples that she can find, taking over miscellaneous housekeeping duties and performing them efficiently. Unfortunately, sooner or later she invariably falls out with the priests (because she converses with the dead) and ends up leaving the temples in a mess because now nobody else knows how to fulfill the duties she has relinquished. Mrs. Cake is dreaded by all priests and priestesses across the continents, as far as the Lost Jewelled Temple of [[Offler]], in [[Klatch (continent)|Klatch]] (see ''[[Book:Reaper Man|Reaper Man]]''), and maybe farther. It is possible that Mrs. Cake can be considered a [[witches magic|witch]]. Besides conversing with the dead, Mrs. Cake also has the ability to turn on or turn off her precognition, a very useful tool while walking the dangerous streets of [[Ankh-Morpork]], but premonitions also make her conversation with normal people very confusing, because she tends to reply to a question right before it has been asked. Yet, if she has replied and then the person decides not to ask the question, she gets a [[Recursion|terrible headache]].

She has an amicable working relationship with her [[spirit guide]], [[One-Man-Bucket]], and knows how to get his full co-operation: setting fire to a glass of whiskey, so that its ghost lasts for just long enough on the other side, is her usual reward for a job well done.

Mrs. Cake has a daughter, [[Ludmilla Cake]], who is partly a [[werewolves|werewolf]] (in ''[[Book:Reaper Man|Reaper Man]]'']. Mrs. Cake now rents out rooms in her house to the undead, including the [[zombies|zombie]] [[Reg Shoe]], the werewolf [[Angua von Überwald]], and the [[vampires]] Count and Countess [[Notfaroutoe]]. Mrs. Cake is sensitive to the needs of the undead, such as the need for orthopedic gravel in the coffin, the need for a door handle that can be operated by a paw, and the need to leave a window open (for examples, see ''[[Book:Men at Arms|Men at Arms]]''). Mrs. Cake is also tolerant of the eccentricities of the undead, such as carrying one's own arm until it is sewn back on. By the time of {{MM}} she is even letting a room to one [[Mavolio Bent]], and that ''really is'' broad-minded.

She may be an unhappy medium, but she may also be psychically connected to the Goddess [[Czol]]. As evidence, see her position in the prehistoric postal pantheon by association. When Moist takes over the Post Office, the items on the "Dont arsk us about" list include two entries reading "Mrs Cake."

The full list is:

DONT ARSK US ABOUT:
*rocks
*troll's with sticks
*All sorts of dragons
*Mrs Cake
*Huje green things with teeth
*Any kinds of black dogs with orange eyebrows
*Rains of spaniel's
*fog
*Mrs Cake

And when Moist hires a very experienced golem, [[Anghammarad]], to be a postman, the [[Golems|golem]] recalls delivering messages in a past age:

‘You really used to deliver messages for kings?’ said Groat. 
‘Many Kings,’ said Anghammarad. ‘Many Empires. Many Gods. Many Gods. All Gone. All Things Go.’ The golem’s voice got deeper, as if he was quoting from memory. ‘Neither Deluge Nor Ice Storm Nor The Black Silence Of The Netherhells Shall Stay These Messengers About Their Sacred Business. Do Not Ask Us About Sabre-Tooth Tigers, Tar Pits, Big Green Things With Teeth Or The Goddess Czol’ 
‘You had big green things with teeth back then?’ said Tropes. 
‘Bigger. Greener. More Teeth,’ rumbled Anghammarad. 
‘And the goddess Czol?’ said Moist. 
‘Do Not Ask.’ 
 
She has a friend, [[Harms-Beetle|Mrs Harms-Beetle]], who lives in [[Welcome Soap]].

Evadne was also the first name of Dr Hinge, of Hinge and Bracket fame.

[[Category:Discworld characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[Category:Supporting characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[Category:Human characters|Cake, Evadne]]
[[de:Evadne Kuchen]]

File:Mrs Cake.jpg

2023-12-06T10:25:12Z

DugBride:

Mrs Evadne Cake sat at table

Detritus

2023-12-06T09:05:19Z

DugBride: testing adding pics size limits captions etc

{{Character Data
|title= Detritus
|photo=DetritusPiecemakerSmall.jpg|
|name= Detritus
|age=
|race= Troll
|occupation= [[City Watch|Watchman]]
|appearance=
|residence= [[Ankh-Morpork]]
|death=
|parents=
|relatives= "''Granny''", nephew
|children= [[Brick]] (adopted)
|marital status= Married to [[Ruby]]
|books= {{G!G!}} {{MP}} {{MAA}} {{FOC}} {{J}} {{T5E}} {{T!}}
|cameos= {{SM}} {{M!!!}} {{NW}} {{TT}} {{MM}} {{SN}} ''[[Discworld Noir]]''
}}

'''Detritus''' was the first [[trolls|troll]] member of the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]], hired under Lord [[Havelock Vetinari|Vetinari]]'s "''special hiring procedures''," at the same time as [[Cuddy]] (a [[dwarfs|dwarf]]) and [[Angua von Überwald|Angua]] (a [[werewolves|werewolf]]). Before getting this job, Detritus had been a splatter (like a bouncer, but with more force) and hired muscle for various establishments in [[Ankh-Morpork]]. However, he came unstuck one night when instructed to splat six-foot Dwarf [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]], who, no doubt, had been brought up by Dwarfs to have an appropriately robust and non-nonsense attitude to any troll who tried it on. The fact Carrot laid him cold must have helped simplify things later in their Watch relationship, as regarding rank and seniority.

Detritus also had a brief career in [[Holy Wood]], where he met and fell in love with the troll [[Ruby]] (see {{MP}}). In fact, the initial reason why Detritus joined the Watch was to get a respectable job in order to appease Ruby. In {{T!}} we are told that their marriage is happy, but childless, which may be partial motivation for Detritus taking the drug-addled young troll [[Brick]] under his wing.

City trolls are generally not very smart because of the high temperature, and Detritus is dumb enough that even city trolls consider him stupid (for an example see the incident with [[Greebo]] in {{M!!!}}). Regardless, Detritus is another natural sergeant in a way very different from [[Fred Colon]]; Detritus has a big voice and can shout until the suspect confesses without knowing what it is that he is supposed to confess to. Detritus is also the main drill sergeant training new recruits, as the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]] grows. In the events of {{T!}}, Detritus is described as being as over-protective as a mother hen.

One of the reasons behind Detritus's emerging cleverness is the special helmet he is wearing which has a fan that cools his head. (Since trolls' brains are made from impure silicon, they work better when cooled.) The helmet has been constructed by his friend and first partner on the job, acting-constable [[Cuddy]], (deceased). In colder climates, (such as [[Bonk]] winters or the chill desert nights of [[Klatch]]), Detritus displays intelligent wit and humour, and if left exposed to the icy coldness of the [[Pork Futures Warehouse]] long enough, reaches extraordinary levels of intelligence; however this is also a near-fatal temperature for even trolls.

Detritus's weapon of choice is a [[Crossbow|crossbow]] called the [[Piecemaker]] which he modified himself. It was originally a 2000-lb-draw siege crossbow firing a large iron rod. It is now a crossbow that fires a large bundle of ordinary wooden arrows at a significant fraction of local light speed. Generally anything it is fired at is disintegrated, along with anything else behind it, and finds good use in opening up an entrance to a building, as well as an exit, with the same shot. Detritus is not very good at aiming with that weapon, but given its destructiveness it does not really matter. In any case, even when he aims, the arrows are capable of shooting outwards in all directions around him. The people around him get a bit nervous, because Detritus has never managed to understand the concept of the safety catch.

In ''Thud'' we get an explicit measure of how far Detritus has grown when [[Commander Vimes]] calls him "''one of [his] best officers''."

==One Successful Troll==
Detritus may very well be the single most successful character in the entire Discworld canon, moving from a semi-sentient, brutalized bouncer chained to a wall to a highly-regarded (at least by Vimes) senior sergeant in the Watch who makes very important and significant contributions to plot development in many of the major events in Ankh-Morpork. Detritus is also instrumental, (albeit not entirely responsible,) in helping heal the enormous rift between dwarfs and trolls by accepting all City Watch dwarfs as non-dwarf but Watchmen, by shaking the hand of [[Rhys Rhysson]] the [[Low King]] of the Dwarfs (see {{T5E}}) and being present during the events of {{T!}}, where the parley between the Low King and [[Mr. Shine]] the [[Diamond King]] of the trolls is brokered. Detritus's career in the Diplomatic Service has also seen him take the role of a Cultural Attaché.

(His position could be shared with Vimes, who went from Cockbill Street, quite possibly the poorest street in Ankh-Morpork, to being a knight, a duke, commander of the watch, not to mention the wealthiest man in the city. However, this could largely be because Vetinari enjoys winding him up.)

==Also See==
* [[Wikipedia:Troll (Discworld)#Detritus|Detritus's Entry]] on [[wikipedia:Wikipedia|Wikipedia]]

[[Category:Discworld characters|Detritus]]
[[category:Supporting characters|Detritus]]
[[category:Serial characters|Detritus]]
[[category:Troll characters|Detritus]]
[[Category:Watchmen]]
[[de:Detritus]]

File:DetritusPiecemakerSmall.jpg

2023-12-06T08:59:30Z

DugBride:

Detritus with his Piecemaker created for Oath: Stories of Discworld

File:Detrituspiecemaker.png

2023-12-06T08:44:55Z

DugBride: /* Summary */

== Summary ==
Detritus with his Piecemaker created for Oath: Stories of Discworld

File:Detrituspiecemaker.png

2023-12-06T08:43:40Z

DugBride: Detritus with his Peicemaker created for Oath: Stories of Discworld

== Summary ==
Detritus with his Peicemaker created for Oath: Stories of Discworld