Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Wuffles

2018-08-24T21:28:54Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Wuffles' name */

== Wuffles' Age ==

So I've been looking at Wuffles' age, and I think I've found an inconsistancy in the books. Reading Sourcery (with his first appearance), it states:

: ''... [Vetinari] did have a small and exceedingly elderly wire-haired terrier called Wuffles that smelled badly1 and wheezed at people. It was said to be the only thing in the entire world he truly cared about.''

: ''...the dog Wuffles, who had been teleported along with his master, had waddled painfully across the floor and was peering short-sightedly at the wizard's boots.''

: ''Rincewind felt a slight pressure on his foot. Wuffles, who was extremely slow on the uptake, had fastened his toothless gums on the toe of Rincewind's boot and was giving it a vicious suck.''

And yet - if my timeline calculations based on the wiki, and the reference to Wuffles being 16 in The Truth are correct, there are 16 years between Sourcery (UU 1974) and The Truth (UU 1990).
It would surely, therefore, be impossible for Wuffles to be elderly during Sourcery, even though he's described as such in canon. In fact, he'd be a pup. If he really were elderly during Sourcery, he'd be surely downright ancient in dog years by the time of The Truth (which given the variables in some characters life timers or magical influences etc, might still be possible).

I don't see this mentioned on the wiki page, but thought it should be mentioned somewhere.

(Personally - and this is just my head canon - I link this in as a sort-of indicator for roughly when Vetinari came to power. I'm aware it's commonly said he's meant to be Patrician during CoM, but Sourcery is his first named appearance, and there seems a fair bit going on around that time: Vetinari named and definitely in power (but perhaps in a new and thus potentially more tenuous position), sourcerer afoot, Wuffles likely born and acquired by Vetinari hereabouts ...) --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 00:00, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
:Wuffles being called "exceedingly elderly" in {{S}}, we can't suppose the original lasted anything like another sixteen years, so we have to accept the suggestion (posited here somewhere that I can't find) that he was replaced by a similar beast given the same name. I'm not a pet person myself and even my wife has not cloned her cats, but I believe people do this sort of thing. The [[Discworld Timeline|Timeline]] is a regular aggravation; there is no prize for finding an inconsistency. - -[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

:: Regardless the cause or explanation, there is an inconsistency within canon which the wiki page neither acknowledges nor attempts to address at present.
:: By making a discussion page and raising the topic, I hoped to help amend this for those who care to consider the texts, and to create a space where relevant thoughts can be discussed (as the page type suggests). At least in doing so those who take a keen interest in the details of Discworld can be aware of the situation and the subject isn't left ignored.
:: Both theories seem viable, and without solid evidence either way they can only ever remain as theories - but do seem to have a place on a page such as this.
:: While inconsistencies within canon and timelines are nothing new, knowing where they may be occuring could be of use to readers. Making note of instances helps ensure we offer as much faithfully accurate information to readers as possible. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 21:14, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

1 It really does say that Wuffles smelled ''badly''. That's a terrible handicap for a dog but probably his nose went along with his teeth. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:13, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

: ''That'' would certainly be a brilliant and well veiled but in plain sight joke, and just the sort of thing I can imagine being worked into the books. Plus, we all typically grow somewhat accustomed to our own "normal" smells, so he probably wouldn't notice as much anyway. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 21:14, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

== Wuffles' name ==

I've also been checking out the etymology. Might seem basic, but "to wuffle" means to sniff or snort. When it comes to sniffing, that seems a sort of apt name for a dog.
And there I was wondering if it was because he made a wuffling sound instead of full on woofing sound at times. (which still might be possible, I guess, since some equate it to the nicker of a horse). The urban dictionary also relates it to acts of affection (non-romantic etc), a casual way to say "love" and "the sound kitties and bunnies make".

All rather sweet really. Makes me wonder if this is an example of the trope "pet the dog" to deliberately subvert Vetinari's darker reputation, or whether it's a genuine example of his softer side which might be more hinted at then fully seen (especially since we later have Mr. Fusspot, who if I remember right is described as a good judge of character, ending up with Vetinari...)
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 00:00, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

:I kind of think everybody in the world has completely missed the entire joke that ''is'' Havelock Vetinari. He is the most humane, enlightened and ethical ruler ever invented, and people actually have no reason to fear him the way they do. But they ''do'' fear him irrationally because of his title and not his person. To me, that is a funny joke. --[[User:Lias Bluestone|Lias Bluestone]] ([[User talk:Lias Bluestone|talk]]) 05:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

:: I don't see it as a joke, exactly, but certainly a brilliant bit of characterisation. I wouldn't say they fear him irrationally (well, certain people seem to have cause to: he does have people assassinated and presumably executed, take part in combat, apparently have an interesting approach to justice, have an "artist" nailed to a piece of wood by the ear, and employ "Information Retrival Technicians", not to mention the situation with the Mimes) but being an efficient and at times ever so ''practical'' a ruler doesn't detract from the fact he can still be a decent person.
:: Of course, having a loyal and much loved dog isn't entirely support for good morals, ethics and character (an example that springs to mind is Hitler and Blondi), but I do agree with the point you're making re: Vetinari. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd encouraged those perceptions around him that lead to fear, because the idea (even without a solid foundation in reality) still holds power. Guess that's the power of stories at work. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 21:28, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Wuffles

2018-08-24T21:14:04Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Wuffles' Age */

User:GallifreyanWitch

2018-08-17T00:05:46Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* The Basics */

Sorry if I'm not really meant to do a Bio - don't know what else to put for the time being and despite searching can't find any guidelines.

'''Please forgive spelling errors - my keyboard plays up at times and is a nightmare'''

I would also like to appologise in advance or overly long posts - I sort-of follow Ridcully's philosophy that anything worth taking a long time to explain is quite an interesting or worthwhile topic to explore

== The Basics ==

AKA: Layla Wolf/Verity/[The] Gallifreyan Witch / Timeless Lady

(I'm really unimaginative with usernames: one nicked from my dog, one nicked from an OC, one based on Gallifreyan history and another based on that)

Female

Age: Early Twenty's

The mind, heart and soul wanders other worlds, but the physical form is based in Wales.

Member of the Discworld MUD - user: VerityWolf (don't play it as much as I'd like to sadly)

First Pratchett book I read was THUD! - A friend of my mum had recommended it and while my mum didn't get it (she doesn't really get that sort of humor based on metaphors etc) I loved it and have been hooked ever since.

Huge fan of Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, though I have a sneaking suspicion the Discworld is becoming a permanent fixture in my mind, more so even than the two universes mentioned above. When my mind wanders, it wanders the streets of Ankh-Morpork, the Ramtop mountains and the slopes of Cori Celesti, rather than through time and space or the streets of Victorian London as it so often has. I justify this mentally in someways by recognising the Disc is a world and mirror of worlds - and so both my other fandoms will have their parallels on the Disc somewhere. Also a fan of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, The Farseer Trilogy, The Chronicles of Ancient Darkness and His Dark Materials - but none have touched my heart and taken over my mind to the extent of the Whoniverse, Holmsiverse or Discworld.

Currently Self-employed medical herbalist. Have a long standing interest in 'alternative' (but lets face it - truly traditional) medicine and 'energy' work. Consequently I find the activities of the Witches fascinating and often all to close to the truth.

Previous studies have included Herbal Medicine BSc (Hons), History (focusing on the medieval period), Archaeology, Psychology and Astronomy.

Hobbies (other than dreaming and reading) include Medieval Re-enactment (which includes Archery, Quarterstaff and one day Sword fighting, Fingerloop braiding), Lord of the Rings Online and Music (the violin - but not at all good at it due to muscle pains it causes - , plucked psaltery and tabor pipe and drum).

I've also developed a love of beta reading fanfiction (and articles etc).

Currently writing up the adventures on the Disc that I dream about. Got about 4 main stories on the go, 3ish on the edge of my mind and 2 short story all in the same (new) thread. With just their bare bones (the central story lines that are even then yet to be fleshed out) the first and second ones word counts are over 14,000 words already! Now if only I could harness that writing magic and use it to get so real work done for my degree. Working hard not to make them Mary-Sueish, but it's hard when you place a sort of mirror of yourself on another world and see it through their eyes and feel it with their heart. At present I'm writing to record them and get them to move beyond simply my mind. Perhaps one day, I may improve and publish them online if I ever feel they may have some worth to others and can get over my lack of confidence.

Also working on a timeline both in general and specifically for Vetinari - see talk page (it's a shame there isn't a page attached to the character pages enabling a suggested timeline for the character to be displayed and edited - ''hint hint'')

I'm also learning to draw - though I'm not very good - and will hopefully one day be able to contribute fan art and illustrate the stories I dream up.

== Happy Yule 2013 ==
I do feel sorry for my family. They've got me A Blink of the Screen and Dodger which I'm absolutely delighted with and are putting up with me wittering on about the Disc - which they don't always 'get'. And a friend has got me Raising Steam (which my parents had said not to get on the basis it would distract me from my studies) and The Complete Ankh-Morpork - which I am absolutely engrossed in. Consequently my mind is back on the Disc, rather than in much needed revision.

== A thought on the Year of the Reciprocating Llama ==

Recently my mind has been on stamps (of the Discworld variety, naturally) thanks to the Discworld Emporium bringing out some special limited edition ones to celebrate 10 years since they started making them and 10 years since Going Postal. On a side note I'm rather delighted to have found myself the owner of a smiling penny patrician as well as a pure black Vetinari Four pence, even if I didn't get one of the Blue triangles, an autographed card, autographed first day cover or the solid gold penny patrician - how a couple of sports can make up for the realization I missed all that I haven't a clue, but it does.

Anyway...

Something occurred to me, when studying the sheet of Vetinari Four Penny's I bought that along the bottom of it is the line: "Honouring Our Esteemed Tyrant - Lord Havelock Vetinari - Year of the Reciprocating Llama".

For some reason it was playing on my mind over the last couple of days.

Then a particle of inspiration, or perhaps understanding, hit me.

The [[Year of the Reciprocating Llama]] is 2014.

Vetinari is still the Patrician as of that date! (Talk about survivability - I wonder if he's set a record for the longest lasting Patrician yet).

We may not have the stories up to the present day yet, and the characters may be getting on a bit in years (By my calculations Havelock would be 74/75, Sam 73/74, Moist 50/51, Ridcully 98/99, Granny Weatherwax 88/89, Susan 44/45, Carrot 45/46 and Young Sam would be 24/25) even if they're not really showing it (if the Penny Patricians and Penny Moists are anything to go by - time seems to have gone a bit wibbly-wobbly) but there seems some continuity, some stretching of the Time Line beyond the books to the present day! Unless of course there is some strange parallel-shift that means 2014 (and the year of the reciprocating llama) on Roundworld is equivalent to the year 2000/1 (10 years after Going Postal took place) on Discworld. That still adds a few years on top of our already established timeline (with Vetinari in his 60s, Moist in his mid-30s etc).

Mind aching a little at playing around with numbers and dates, but feeling a little happy hope that the former conclusion is accurate.

Oh, and another thought! Unseen Academicals takes place in the Year of the Pensive Hare - according to the Discworld Stamps website that correlates to 2009. That date seems a little far ahead, and leaves quite a long gap after main confirmed event dates (e.g. Thud etc in 1990/1 and Snuff in 1995/6?) and mix up the order a bit, but applying the same logic that the names applied on roundworld are a good few years behind and using the assumption 2000/1 = 10 yrs after Going Postal, that could place it around 1995/6 - the same year as Snuff?

-------------

== Fanfiction ==

I've finally started publishing some fanfiction!

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2545592 Divination After Dark] - 2014.10.31 - Mistress Weatherwax during one dark and stormy Soul's Cake night recalls a scene from her youth.

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2719736/chapters/6103628 Personent Hodie] - 2014.12.05 - a Filk based on the Medieval song of the same name - also in image format on [http://gallifreyan-witch.deviantart.com/art/Personent-Hodie-narrow-498530613 Deviant Art]

-----------

== 12th March 2015 ==

As a rule, I wouldn't publish my fanart here - at most I'd provide links - as I know this is a wiki page and I don't want to swamp it with what belongs on a personal blog or website. But then, some rules are meant to be broken, or at least bent, and this is hardly normal circumstances.
My own little tribute, drawn the night of the 12th after hearing the news, though only published on the 16th when I finally got home to an Internet connection.
[[File:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg|thumbnail]]

== This Election... ==

[https://www.facebook.com/votevetinari Vote Vetinari]

== A New Calendar ==

Today (2015.08.20) My 2016 Witches Diary arrived. There's quite a few dates in there for events not mentioned on the main page for festivals etc. - so I'll hopefully go through it and add some in the near future.

On a slightly different tangent I've started working on a google calendar with the dates: something importable for many calendar programs as well as viewable online. According to google one should be able to:
-Find your public calendar by searching on Google.
-See your public calendar on a website or synced with another application.
-Subscribe to your public calendar and view it within Google Calendar.
-View your public calendar without using Google Calendar.

It's still quite rough, but here's the links:

xml - https://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/ald59q0e10th6jlvpt0t6q8tn8%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic

ical - https://www.google.com/calendar/ical/ald59q0e10th6jlvpt0t6q8tn8%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics

html (in theory imbedable in websites) - https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ald59q0e10th6jlvpt0t6q8tn8%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Europe/London

(If you don't speak computer - like I don't - this means: '''Web browser (HTML)''': Other people can view your calendar directly in their browser window, like Chrome or Firefox, without signing in to Google Calendar. '''Google Calendar (ICAL)''': Other people who are signed in to Google Calendar can add your public calendar. '''Another application (XML or ICAL)''': Other people can view and subscribe to your calendar using calendar applications like Outlook or Apple Calendar. You'll need to choose the format (XML or ICAL) that matches what your calendar application uses. Note: The ICAL link downloads a file that ends in “.ics”)

I don't know what all the dates are - some might not even be Discworld but were listed in the diary and didn't ring any bells as roundworld dates, and theres duplicates of some. As I said, it's still quite rough, but something that hopefully might be of interest to others: I find I can have it on my tablet calendar which helps keep me up to date - literally.

Talk:Wuffles

2018-08-17T00:00:36Z

GallifreyanWitch: Started discussion; Observations on Wuffles' age and name

Saponaria

2017-12-23T19:41:30Z

GallifreyanWitch: Added annotation: links to the plant Saponaria officinalis

Saponaria is a [[Gods|goddess]] of soap and cleanliness. It may be assumed that practices associated with her involve soap as it is noted in [[Book:The Compleat Ankh-Morpork|The Complete Ankh-Morpork]] the use of soap around the holy water fonts in the [[Temple of Small Gods]] is prohibited except among followers of Saponaria, while [[Lord Vetinari]] mentions in [[Book:The Science of Discworld IV: Judgment Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] that she arranges 'wonderfully fine, smooth and plentiful' suds.

== Annotation ==

''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponaria Saponaria]'' is the name of a genus of plants, in the ''Caryophyllaceae'' (Pinks and Carnations) family. This family - and this genus in particular - are notable for their Saponin content (named for the plant), which is responsible for creating a bubbly lather from the leaves and roots, useful as a gentle soap. It's names reflect this: "''Sapo''" is derived from Latin meaning "soap", while a common name for ''Saponaria officinalis'' is "Soapwort" ("wort" meaning herb).

{{stub}}

[[Category:Supernatural entities]]

User talk:GallifreyanWitch

2016-04-04T00:08:59Z

GallifreyanWitch: The Benefits of Being a Flatalist

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

== Thoughts ==
=== Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari ===

<big><big>POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING</big></big>

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:
* Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
* Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
* Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
* Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year (UC) !! Vetinari's Age !! Current affairs
|-
| 1939 or 1940 || Possible Year of Birth||
|-
| 1941 || 1/2 ||
|-
| 1942 || 2/3 ||
|-
| 1943 || 3/4 ||
|-
| 1944 || 4/5 ||
|-
| 1945 || 5/6 ||
|-
| 1946 || 6/7 ||
|-
| 1947 || 7/8 ||
|-
| 1948 || 8/9 ||
|-
| 1949 || 9/10 ||
|-
| 1950 || 10/11 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1951 || 11/12 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1952 || 12/13 ||
|-
| 1953 || 13/14 ||
|-
| 1954 || 14/15 ||
|-
| 1955 || 15/16 ||
|-
| 1956 || 16/17 ||
|-
| '''1957''' || 17/18 || '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || '''Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.'''
|-
| || || '''Participates in the Glorious Revolution''' (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
|-
| || || Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
|-
| 1958 || 18/19 ||
|-
| 1959 || 19/20 ||
|-
| 1960 || 20/21 ||
|-
| 1961 || 21/22 ||
|-
| 1962 || 22/23 ||
|-
| 1963 || 23/24 ||
|-
| '''1964''' || 24/25 || '''''The Colour of Magic''''' and '''''The Light Fantastic'''''
|-
| || || Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
|-
| 1965 || 25/26 ||
|-
| 1966 || 26/27 || Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
|-
| || || ''Equal Rights''
|-
| 1967 || 27/28 || Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
|-
| || || Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
|-
| '''1968''' || 28/29 || '''Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, ''The Truth'')'''
|-
| || ||[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
|-
| 1969 || 29/30 || Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
|-
| || || Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
|-
| 1970 || 30/31 || Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
|-
| 1971 || 31/32 ||
|-
| 1972 || 32/33 ||
|-
| 1973 || 33/34 ||
|-
| '''1974''' || 34/35 || '''''Sorcery'''''
|-
| || || '''Definitely Patrician.'''
|-
| || || '''Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.'''
|-
| || ||'''Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.'''
|-
| 1975 || 35/36 ||
|-
| 1976 || 36/37 ||
|-
| 1977 || 37/38 ||
|-
| 1978 || 38/39 ||
|-
| 1979 || 39/40 ||
|-
| 1980 || 40/41 ||
|-
| 1981 || 41/42 ||
|-
| 1982 || 42/43 ||
|-
| 1983 || 43/44 ||
|-
| 1984 || 44/45 || Verence II of Lancre crowned
|-
| 1985 || 45/46 || '''''Guards! Guards!'''''
|-
| || || '''Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive'''
|-
| || || '''Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.'''
|-
| || || Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
|-
| || || '''Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary'''
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
|-
| || || Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
|-
| || || Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
|-
| || || ''Witches Abroad'' - Lillith deposed in Genua
|-
| || || '''''Moving Pictures'''''
|-
| || || Vetinari visits the Odeon
|-
| || || '''''Reaper Man'''''
|-
| || || '''Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting'''
|-
| 1986 || 46/47 || '''''Men At Arms'''''
|-
| || || '''Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.'''
|-
| || || ''' Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards''' [and slight limp for a short while?]
|-
| || || Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
|-
| || ||Detritus and Angua join the Watch
|-
| || || '''''Interesting Times'''''
|-
| || || Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
|-
| || || '''''Soul Music'''''
|-
| || || '''Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)'''
|-
| || ||Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
|-
| 1987 || 47/48 || '''''Feet of Clay'''''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him'''
|-
| || || Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
|-
| || || Movement to free Golems starts
|-
| || || Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
|-
| || || ''Hogfather''
|-
| 1988 || 48/49 || '''''Jingo'''''
|-
| || || '''Leshp war with Klatch'''
|-
| || || '''Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.'''
|-
| || || '''Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before'''
|-
| || || Vimes created Duke of Ankh
|-
| || || 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
|-
| 1989 || 49/50 || '''''The Fifth Elephant'''''
|-
| 1990 || 50/51 || '''''The Truth'''''
|-
| || || '''Wuffles aged 16'''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent'''
|-
| || || Later events of '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || Birth of Young Sam Vimes
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || '''''Going Postal'''''
|-
| || || Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || ''Monstrous Regiment''
|-
| || || Borogravia-Zlobenia War
|-
| || || '''''THUD!'''''
|-
| || || Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
|-
| || || '''Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.'''
|-
| 1992 || 52/53 ||
|-
| 1993 || 53/54 ||
|-
| 1994 || 54/55 ||
|-
| 1995 || 55/56 ||
|-
| 1996 || 56/57 || '''''Snuff'''''
|-
| 1997 || 57/58 ||
|-
| 1998 || 58/59 ||
|-
| 1999 || 59/60 ||
|-
| 2000 || 60/61 ||
|}

=== [[Patrician's Palace|The Patrician's Palace]] ===

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems.
For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in [[Guards! Guards!]]. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)?
Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved?
The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/
Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are:
[[Book:The_Science_of_Discworld_IV:_Judgment_Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229))
Guards! Guards!
Feet of Clay
Night Watch

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the [[Menagerie]] on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

[[File:Ankh-morpork 004.JPG]]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

[[File:Patricianspalace.PNG]]

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the [[Pictsie]] page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Browsing through the Discworld Stamp Catalogue I've just found a stamp featuring [http://www.discworldstampcatalogue.co.uk/stamps/shs0372a.gif the front of the Patrician's Palace] - another canonical/semi-canonical reference. Can't enlighten us entirely as to the floorplan, but every little helps.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 00:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

== Normal Talk ==
==...using the page for its usual purpose==
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. ([[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] disappeared after planting another little mystery in [[Mrs Beddowe's House]]. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Dating==
I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. ''However'', in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Make that

== An Experiment... ==

Something I've been working on for a little while... I wonder if there would be a way to include it on the wiki - I can't find a way to simply embed it. I'll leave it here for now so hopefully can come back to it at a later time:
http://www.thinglink.com/scene/609101018046660609
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

wow. Impressed. This is definitely addable. How much work and dedication went into this?

Looking at the map also tells me ''exactly'' where "Aceria" should go in my fanfic take on the Discworld - in my head the location of an, er, Canada-like country on the Disc had been wobbling around a bit. But now I see it.... (''Oh Aceria! From Hub to shining sea!'') Start around the Hub and move outwards through all the unclaimed and un-named territory as far as Hudson's Bay, sorry, Whale Bay... Quirmian Aceria would be in there somewwhere, too. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Delighted you like it!

Quite a bit of time was spent on tracing. I considered adding colour (beyond an attempt a at a sort of vellum/parchment effect) but decided to keep it simple (especially since it would have taken a lot longer). Around the Hubwards Circle Sea region I also copied the map edge from the Raising Steam map of the region (it has more rivers).
Must admit it's also got me thinking a lot about the other blank regions. Wondering about Russia and Spain equivalents at the moment.
There's a couple of spots on the map which are different to the others: I'm going to make "close up" maps of those regions, which would enable greater detail, especially since Mrs Bradshaw's guide provides a few maps with new places on them, and on the Rimwards Circle Sea region there's a lot going on within quite a small area, which can't be shown at this scale.

I was also hoping to make a similar map for Ankh-Morpork, possibly with greater detail of individual areas (i.e. click a neighborhood and it will take you to a detailed map of that region). I have been desperate for the past year to properly sit down and try and correlate locations named in The Complete Ankh-Morpork with where they are on the maps - e.g. the shops and pubs and wells. I recently managed to get a highly detailed 1:1 scan of The Complete Ankh-Morpork Map so I could start overlaying it with the Streets of Ankh-Morpork one (which I've had in a digital format for ages now)- each has details the other lacks which might help identify individual properties.
Funny thing is, I'm sure I've spotted a few inconsistencies, especially between the drawing on the reverse of the new Ankh-Morpork map and the actual plan of the city itself, which makes things a bit more complicated. I've been trying to draw an image of Ankh-Morpork from the opposite direction to that on the reverse of the map (i.e. Looking down the River Ankh)

All in all, it seems I have a habit of keeping myself busy with Discworld stuff almost to the detriment of everything else. It's so intrinsically rewarding. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The Discworld Spain is almost canonical: it appears in {{WA}}. of course, as The Place Where They Do [[That Thing With The Bulls]]... ([[Olé!]]). {{W}} introduces [[Wotua Doinov|a people who speak a suspiciously Russian-like language]]; Far Uberwald and Zlobenia have an interestingly Russia-like vibe going on. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 14:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
:First, will the map work as a wiki page? If so, why not install it? Suggestions and discussion could then carry on in its talk page without overloading this one. If not, what to do with it? It would remain just an external link. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

:: Oh yes - forgotten about those references - I just don't recall names being attached - need a reread methinks. It's a shame the atlas that was meant to be published in 2014 wasn't. It would answer so many questions and blank spots on the map - though it would probably result in a lot of redrawing (and the hubwards sea coast, I'm finding, is a bit of a nightmare as the different versions don't quite match up).
::: I really don't know whether it will work as a wiki page, unfortunately. If it was possible to embed things from external sources it should - but so far I haven't found a way. My original intention was to experiment with it here, but I couldn't find a way to embed it. I've seen some sites (admittedly thinking An Archive of Our Own and Tumblr)offer rich text or HTML editing - I've found it works (not perfectly, but to a certain extent) with both of these sites, where they seem to treat it like a video. I've looked around and unfortunately can't find any alternative free website/programs.Perhaps I'm missing something, but I think this might be a coding matter - which I've absolutely no experience of. My mind is now drifting towards learning some coding and making a dedicated website with java or something...

My intention with using this format was that it's a little easier to read without being overly cluttered and/or having to match numbers to places. Having said that, I'd be happy to upload named/numbered versions as simple images to use on the wiki - I could easily see a single spot being used to point out a site on some of the pages about different location and simplified, regionalised maps with links underneath (i.e. Whole Map with links to Klatchian continent, Hub, Ramtops, Sto Plains, etc --> Map of Sto Plains with Links to cities, etc which link either directly to pages or to further maps etc, etc...). It's a bit more of a clunky, slow method, but should, I think, maintain a level of visuals and interactivity - almost like clicking a 'zoom in' (or 'pan' for moving according to compass points) button on Google Earth. It would certainly be a decent work around without any risk of braking the wiki or need to work on coding. Images are images: we can edit them to meet our needs. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 21:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Downey

2016-03-20T13:06:07Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Mrs Downey? */

How is Downey "several years older" (regardless of the greengrocer?) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
:Some years later there's still no support for the idea, so I shall remove it. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 03:41, 13 November 2011 (CET)

== What is the difference between a cameo and an appearance? ==

Seems like they're the same thing to me. Yes, I can understand that in Making Money he only had a few lines, but in Feet of Clay he didn't appear much more often in my memory. Should we just conglomerate 'cameo's with appearances?
:The difference is the same as the movies: size and significance of the part. I might say {{NW}} was a real appearance, though. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 19:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

==Dubious Entries==
Assassins specifically do not go around poisoning people for free, the Master of their guild and spokesman for their profession even less likely. Lord Downey is known to offer Humbugs on occasion, but there is no report of anyone dying from them. (There's no report of anyone actually eating them, either.) Also, is there a reference for the claim that "Downey also attempted to frame Sam Vimes using a planted packet of arsenic"? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:At (or near) the climax of {{FOC}}- Downey barges into Vimes' office with Mr Boggis and Mrs Palm as witnesses, expecting to find Vimes drunk on the bottle of whiskey and in possession of the arsenic, both of which Downey or a confederate had planted in Sam's desk. Sam of course had twigged to it, and makes a fool of Downey.

:I agree as to Downey's holiday confectionery- Terry tells us that nobody will eat them, but that's likely out of paranoia [[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 12:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Downey, Boggis and Palm were sent to find the evidence: I never got the impression that Downey had planted it. What was the motive? The guilds weren't in the king-making ring. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:Downey knew exactly where to look, barging into the office in the full expectation that Vimes would be in a drunken stupor, and was fully taken in by Vimes' sugar stunt. (Palm and Boggis were not aware it was a setup, they were along as neutral witnesses). He knew precisely what he would find (or what Vimes allowed him to think he was finding). If Downey himself didn't plant the arsenic and the whiskey, then he still certainly knew about them. Why? We don't know whether he was part of the Dragon KOA plot- we don't know who all the conspirators were. Perhaps Downey had not, in fact, got over his grudge against Vetinari. Terry never explains it, but there's no question that for whatever reason, Downey was participating in a deliberate charade to implicate the Watch Commander. [[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 23:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

How, then, did he survive the episode? Vetinari would not be charitable about an attack from the Assassins' Guild and less the blowhard Downey whom he knows of old. I still see Downey as a useful idiot. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 01:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:I can't explain Downey's motives, since Terry doesn't and, you're right, they don't appear to make any sense. But Downey definitely was knowingly participating in a frame-up.--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 03:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

''"both of which Downey or a confederate had planted in Sam's desk"'' - the text notes that Sam becomes very aware the window to his (upper-floor) office has been left wide open and that this alerts his policeman's senses. Don't forget the gargoyle constables are on Vetinari-watching duty and might only be on the outer wall of the Yard if off-duty or report-writing or pigeon-claiming (think about it). So this avenue of approach to Vimes would be wide-open - especially with an Assassins' Guild contract out.

This is where Sam is prompted by his inner suspicious bastard to ask why somebody should visit at night via the window and indeed who would be capable. What's the motive?

This is where he narrows it down to a bottle of Old Macabre and a bag of arsenic - placed there by the Dragon King (a vampire - capable of flight) with the complicity of Downey, who can then bust a corrupt policeman who has poisoned his boss and has got drunk about it afterwards. With results we all know! --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 08:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

: Apparently Dragon King is a much more experienced vampire than Count Notferutoe, who can't carry anything in bat form, certainly not a full bottle of booze! Yes, you're quite right, apparently it was DKOA who planted the "evidence"- but Downey was certainly in the know. Does this mean that Downey was part of the Kingmaking plot? Not necessarily. DKOA could simply have given him a 'friendly tipoff.' Nonetheless Downey knew it was a setup.

:Does he have a grudge against Vimes? Well, there was the Cruces thing and, more generally, Vimes' intrusion upon the Guild in {{MAA}}- and Vimes is the Guild's landlord! It also is likely that his Lordship and the aristocratic Assassins share the nobility's general resentment of this jumped-up thief-taker from Cockbill Lane, who always seems to insert himself in Places Where Not Wanted and Things Not His Business. By contrast Vimes seems to have a much better relationship with Rosie Palm, Mr Boggis, and the other heads of the 'working-class' Guilds.[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 14:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Just a thought, re: offering poison Humbugs around - would it actually count as assassination? Since it's self-administered and coming from a known (important) assassin surely if anyone accepted it would be considered they're own fault and therefore suicide? It would be similar to the 'Sending up for good' award involving the glass of sherry and almond slice and name being featured in the school magazine - and possibly the obituary section if the almond slice is accepted (as the {{AGD}} says, the guild likes to 'test, test and test again').

I guess one of the key things suggesting the humbugs are actually poisoned is the recipe in {{NOC}}.

As for the idea of assassins going around poisoning people for free, well I can't help but think the assassins are applying similar rules to others as they apply to themselves - i.e. They're not actually killing, just creating the opportunity for people to kill themselves (perhaps the Watch needs to consider the difference between 'Suicide' and 'Assisted Suicide' except it would probably be a nightmare to police and generate a lot of paperwork). It might also be some form of entertainment or a test for the assassin involved (to see how many trusting/gullible people take a sweet and how far the assassin can be a confidence trickster).

I wonder if it's an established activity for assassins, dishing out poisoned sweets, which may have led to the advice 'Don't except sweets from strangers'.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
: I thought it was a joke. Assassins don't go around poisoning people for free (probably less so the Master of their guild): it's a rule. The Almond Slice? Possibly student humor in the guild school or something more practical... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

:: Hmm. Could be. Hadn't thought of it like that. Could be either way. If it is a joke it's a ''very'' consistent one. I guess you can never tell with Ankh-Morpork. As for the aspect of it being a rule... it may be in the rule book (virtual or real), but if Downey means what he says about rules (which, judging from his general sense of humor, is possibly a joke, though the statement itself seems quite likely to be accurate) they're probably more like very important, standard guidelines --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

== But what did his mother call him? ==

I'm sure that somewhere in several million words of Terry Pratchett is at least one reference to Downey's first name being "Donald". But I just can't nail it down. Any ideas? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 18:18, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: My gut says there's no mention of it in the canon, but please prove me wrong --[[Special:Contributions/83.255.42.90|83.255.42.90]] 18:37, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Just a thought, completely plucked out of thin air without even a hint from the books: what if his first name was Robert and he had a son who, in that traditional fashion, shared his name? Could become a bit of a roundworld parody like with Jeremy Clockson. I expect any such son would follow his fathers footsteps into the guild as the roundworld [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Downey,_Jr. equivalent] did, possibly from an early age.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 09:20, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

== Mrs Downey? ==

I've just picked up the reference, in the character-laconic box, which states Downey is married. I've never considered this before and always assumed he was a commited bachelor. After all, there's a scene where he appears in the Guild in his pyjamas and dressing gown in the middle of the night during an emergency, implicitly suggesting he lives in. Could anyone cite the canonical text on this? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 13:38, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
:I never heard of her either. The Companions are no help, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for a wife. I'm taking it out until someone can provide a reference. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:28, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
::While I don't recall a reference, for some reason I've ended up with the perception he would be married - quite possibly from here. As for why he'd be at the guild at night if he was married it could be that as Guild Master and head of the School he'd be needed on-site as much as possible, especially since much of the Guilds business may be conducted after daylight hours and he'd be needed for emergencies like that referred to above. It may also be the Guild offers rooms for members, a bit like the (traditional) Gentlemen's Clubs, which as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen%27s_club Wikipedia] says:
::: ''"The clubs were, in effect, "second homes" in the centre of London where men could relax, mix with their friends, play parlour games, get a meal, and in some clubs stay overnight. ... They were a convenient retreat for men who wished to get away from female relations. Many men spent much of their lives in their club, and it was common for young newly graduated men who had moved to London for the first time to live at their club for two or three years before they could afford to rent a house or flat... In the 19th and 20th centuries, clubs were regarded as a central part of elite men's lives. They provided everything a regular home would have. Clubs were created and designed for a man's domestic needs. They were places to relieve stress and worries. They provided emotional and practical needs. They provided spaces such as dining halls, library, entertainment and game rooms, rooms for sleep, bathrooms and washrooms, and a study. In many ways they resembled a regular home."''
::: '' "Clubs were created in a time where family was considered one of the most important aspects of a man's life in the 19th century. A man's home was his property and should have been a place to satisfy most of his needs but for elite men this was not always the case; it was not always a place that provided privacy and comfort. An explanation for this might be because the home of elite families often entertained guests for dinners, formal teas, entertainment, and parties. Their lives were on display and often their lives would be reported in local papers. A gentleman's club offered an escape from this family world. Another explanation would be that men as boys were brought up in all male environments in places like schools and sports pastimes and they became uncomfortable when they now had to share their lives with women in a family environment. A gentleman's club offered an escape."''
::: ''"The clubs were designed for communication and the sharing of information with each other... It was often used as a tool to climb the social ladder... Gossip was also a tool that led to more practical results in the outside world..." ''
::I can see the guilds fulfilling this sort of role, taking the place of such clubs which were often related to ones [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gentlemen%27s_clubs_in_London occupation, lifestyle or political/philosophical views] (like the Holmesian [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_Club ''Diogenese Club''] or [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeeves Jeeves'] '' Junior Ganymede Club ''). The Assassins Guild location and building in particular looks just the sort to house such a club, and the fact that even after graduation Assassins would need to maintain contact with the Guild for licensing and probably contracts means they'd spend a lot of time there. The building contains possibly the second-best library in the city and as a school is already set up to provide food and accommodation. It would also be a key point where people of certain levels of wealth and class would naturally mix, and it would be easier to maintain contact with the "Old Boys" through the guild/"club". It would also be useful in sharing information which might be related to contracts, social climbing and influencing politics (in the past, at least) - I am put in mind of the Book kept by the Ganymede Club in which secrets about the valet's employers are kept as secrets within the club for either leverage in difficult situations or as an entertaining read on long dull nights.
::As for why Downey might stay there if it were fulfilling the role of a club? It might be an old habit - he studied there, grew up there, works there, why not sleep there as well? It'd save the commuting. It could be he prefers the environment. Or it could be an escape from home life and the very wife we're questioning the existence of.
::--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 13:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:The Bucket

2016-01-28T20:09:15Z

GallifreyanWitch: Another Bucket in fiction

It could be a very tenuous link, but I've just been watching BBC's Dickensian and seen and realised there's a character called "Inspector Bucket" who originated in Bleak House. A policeman called Bucket and a pub favoured by Watchmen called "The Bucket"... a connection/inspiration perhaps?
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:09, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Clacks

2015-10-21T13:44:12Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Six Shutters? */

==Six Shutters?==
Does anyone know why [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clacks Wikipedia]] thinks a clacks array only has six shutters? Eight seems obvious and I thought that had been mentioned.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 04:18, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
*Possibly due to the same reason we have chapter 7a instead of 8 -[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel}} Jun 4 12:42 2007 (IST)
*I thought of the possible dangers, but things come in 7as all the time, and I remember the reference to the sixteen shutters (either both sides or one side of a duplex tower.)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:56, 4 June 2007 (CEST) And in {{T5E}}, just after we meet Skimmer, Lord Vetinari watched the semaphore tower. "All eight of the big shutters facing him were blinking furiously..."
**that would indicated that maybe shutter numbers are not static or that we have a continuity mistake --[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel]] 13:51 05 June 2007
***Not unless someone can find a mention of a six-panel array somewhere in the text. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
**** Well, I don't know whether it's anything to go by, but the Clacks Board Game (that's just arrived!) uses 6 shutters. Must say though I was under the impression it was 8 - but I expect that's something I've assumed due to the power of the number. Also, as far as I can tell, they haven't included details on sending numbers, and I can't help but think theres far more combinations of lights possible than they display. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC) Just found an [http://geeksyndicate.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/pic1670734.jpg image of the Clacks Alphabet] used in the game. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 13:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Practical Matters==

Considering the concentration of computer professionals and general geeks in Discworld fandom, it's odd that I haven't seen much in the way of technical analysis of the Clacks. Perhaps some of the more digital (or just imaginative) contributors could produce some answers to practical problems.
Please add comments, solutions, or just more questions here to see if we can produce a workable model. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

: Here's ours: [http://blip.tv/file/4906971 Clacks, phase I]. ''(Unsigned comment by [[User:76.191.219.152|76.191.219.152]] at 18:55, 20 March 2011)''

==Optical==
At eight miles, a clacks array needs to be 138 times wider than one that can just be read at 100 yards. Supposing very sharp-eyed young operators could see four-inch panels at 100 yards, the panels would be 46 feet square and the array nearly 100 feet wide and 250 feet! high. Since towers have been reported to be 150 feet tall, this is unlikely. Therefore we have to assume optical technology from the Counterweight Continent has produced useful telescopes quite quickly since Twoflower's strange lenses.

:In Jingo, Lord Rust has a telescope, which he claims was only invented the previous year. Of course, the Klatchians have had them for ages. Every reason therefore to expect the Clacks had telescopes.--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 13:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:: According to the Clacks Boardgame yes, they do use telescopes. It also states the distance between towers is around 20 Miles - so based on the above analysis you'd definitely need good lenses. In Raising Steam, Adora mentions every clacksman is equipped with "a very expensive pair of Herr Fleiss's binoculars, made using the very best Uberwald technology". --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Mechanical==
A more manageable 20-by-50-foot array with 9-foot panels is equivalent to a 3/4 inch panel at 100 yards, perhaps readable with a simple telescope. Flashing multiple 9-foot shutters randomly at twice per second would still be difficult with purely mechanical timing and control; the maintenance problems described are understandable.

What powers the mechanism? ([[Golems]] are suggested for the future.)

Is there a reference to the shape of the array? Do we know if it's 1x8, 2x4 etc? Not that it makes a huge difference, but a 1x8 array would imply binary encoding. I've known people to be able to read a binary stream almost as fast as normal text.

A 1x8 would have heavy unusable redundancy. There are eight versions of "one light on" each indistinguishable from each other, and, erm, 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 versions of "two lights on". A rectangular array removes a lot of redundancy, you get two-side-by-side, two-up-down, two-left-diagonal, two-right-diagonal, etc. (unsigned comment by [[User:Jgharston]], 1 Jun 2014)
:Now it occurs to me that the ninth panel above the array mentioned in {{MR}} might be just a visual reference to locate the pattern below, rather than a parity bit or other coding function. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

==Digital==
{{MR}} mentions a separate clock panel above the array of eight. Why would it be synchronous?
Is it, rather, a parity bit?

As with ASCII, etc., the eight bits allow for many control characters and subcodes (the ''overhead'') besides the basic alphabet, but how are these separated? Reading semaphore at all at 120 per minute is a good enough trick without multiplexing; I would expect they read numbers which are interpreted or decoded later, by others, but the operators are said to be able to read the overhead as they go.

Clock rate = 2 : Bit Rate = 16 : Bytes/sec = 2

At this rate, a low-res picture 100 pixels square in 8-bit color takes nearly 11/2 hours, 3/4 hour for 4-bit color duplexed. How good a compression algorithm can Lieutenant [[Blouse]] write?

:Use 8bit CMYK (256 colour) encoding, 1 byte per pixel, 2 bytes/sec, header frames encode the picture size. A 100x100px picture is 10000px or 10002 frames total, so 5001 seconds total transmission time, or just over 83 minutes. You could probably improve on that by encoding something like "pixels 25-95 are colour ccmmyykk" for example. Then is just a matter of creating the right imp for the job. --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 15:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

==Health and Safety==
This has been a difficult area for the industry. The obvious dangers of working at great height can be guarded and on-the-job fatalities are much reduced, but the stress of long periods of intense concentration still produces mental casualties. Attention is now being paid to the expensive [[Klatchian Coffee|Klatchian Coffees]] that are associated with the group.

==Alternatives==
We have already seen faster-than-light communication (including voice) demonstrated with the [[Omniscope]]. Why aren't the technomancers of the [[Unreal Estate]] providing a much better system than the Clacks? The Omniscope works better than their [[Dis-organiser]]; co-ordinating the two they could be as rich as Creosote (or Bill Gates.)

hmm. Would mass use of a magical device such as the omniscope for communication and entertainment also bring certain intractable problems with it? If an Omniscope can see and open a doorway to ''everything'' happening ''everywhere'', this would at the very least make it an Internet analogue in the Discworld.(All you would need would perhaps be a sub-fingernail sized sliver cut from an Omniscope - its ''omni-chip'', maybe, or Central Perception Unit? - , and some sort of magnifying device). And just as the Internet is stupendously popular in our dimension of space and time, so it would be on the Disc. In fact, it could be the next big craze after Music with Rocks In and after the Clicks.

Here lies the problem. Mass popular interest in anything technomantic, given a magical focus, has in the past offered a gateway to things from the Dungeon Dimensions to come in and colonise our plane of reality. And why shouldn't it, as from an Omniscope's point of view, the Dungeon Dimensions are a valid sub-set of ''everything'' and ''everywhere''.

To extend the Internet analogy: these would be some malicious viruses and self-replicating malware should they manage to get onto the Omni-Net! Cue Ponder Stibbons and Hex to write the AV protection? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you can see the dangers; I recognise them, but we're talking about Wizards. They don't let the occasional rip in the fabric of reality worry them. They might balk at allowing the general public too much access to their toys, though; simple bloody-mindedness might deter them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 12:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
:: You assume that rips in the fabric of reality would not interfere with any of their 9 moments of food intake. I assure you that even the chance of having to skip even one of them would keep wizards away from the notion of ripping any sorts of fabric. Good heavens! --[[Special:Contributions/94.213.120.101|94.213.120.101]] 11:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

==Major Edit==
I think what's called "Light Clacks" here is actually a one-bit optical telegraph, unrelated to the Clacks. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
*Oh right. Well the characters call it a light clacks in the text, so just assumed. I notice you've grouped it under "Earlier Semaphore" now; it is mentioned after the Clacks introduction in {{TFE}}, but then it could still easily be older technology. Here's the reference if you want to check: ''Monstrous Regiment, Page 137 (Doubleday UK Hardback)''. [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 10:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

== A little crossover with Roundworld? ==

While doing a little search about the Clacks on Google, I noticed some entries coming up with "ClacksWeb".
Unfortunately this is not a website dedicated to the workings of the Clacks, as I was hoping to find, but is the website associated with [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clackmannanshire Clackmannanshire], Britain's Smallest Historic County, located in Scotland. It is otherwise known as "The Wee County" (which naturally brought Feegles to mind) and is usually abbreviated to simply "Clacks".

You know you've got the Disc on you're mind when you see that county name and automatically read it as "Clacksmanshire", and get little visions of a place, probably up towards the Ramtops or Chalk, where Clacksmen might retire to or take a break from the whistling winds and dizzying heights of the towers. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 13:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Clacks

2015-10-21T13:21:19Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* A little crossover with Roundworld? */ new section

==Six Shutters?==
Does anyone know why [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clacks Wikipedia]] thinks a clacks array only has six shutters? Eight seems obvious and I thought that had been mentioned.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 04:18, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
*Possibly due to the same reason we have chapter 7a instead of 8 -[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel}} Jun 4 12:42 2007 (IST)
*I thought of the possible dangers, but things come in 7as all the time, and I remember the reference to the sixteen shutters (either both sides or one side of a duplex tower.)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:56, 4 June 2007 (CEST) And in {{T5E}}, just after we meet Skimmer, Lord Vetinari watched the semaphore tower. "All eight of the big shutters facing him were blinking furiously..."
**that would indicated that maybe shutter numbers are not static or that we have a continuity mistake --[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel]] 13:51 05 June 2007
***Not unless someone can find a mention of a six-panel array somewhere in the text. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
**** Well, I don't know whether it's anything to go by, but the Clacks Board Game (that's just arrived!) uses 6 shutters. Must say though I was under the impression it was 8 - but I expect that's something I've assumed due to the power of the number. Also, as far as I can tell, they haven't included details on sending numbers, and I can't help but think theres far more combinations of lights possible than they display. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Practical Matters==

Considering the concentration of computer professionals and general geeks in Discworld fandom, it's odd that I haven't seen much in the way of technical analysis of the Clacks. Perhaps some of the more digital (or just imaginative) contributors could produce some answers to practical problems.
Please add comments, solutions, or just more questions here to see if we can produce a workable model. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

: Here's ours: [http://blip.tv/file/4906971 Clacks, phase I]. ''(Unsigned comment by [[User:76.191.219.152|76.191.219.152]] at 18:55, 20 March 2011)''

==Optical==
At eight miles, a clacks array needs to be 138 times wider than one that can just be read at 100 yards. Supposing very sharp-eyed young operators could see four-inch panels at 100 yards, the panels would be 46 feet square and the array nearly 100 feet wide and 250 feet! high. Since towers have been reported to be 150 feet tall, this is unlikely. Therefore we have to assume optical technology from the Counterweight Continent has produced useful telescopes quite quickly since Twoflower's strange lenses.

:In Jingo, Lord Rust has a telescope, which he claims was only invented the previous year. Of course, the Klatchians have had them for ages. Every reason therefore to expect the Clacks had telescopes.--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 13:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:: According to the Clacks Boardgame yes, they do use telescopes. It also states the distance between towers is around 20 Miles - so based on the above analysis you'd definitely need good lenses. In Raising Steam, Adora mentions every clacksman is equipped with "a very expensive pair of Herr Fleiss's binoculars, made using the very best Uberwald technology". --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Mechanical==
A more manageable 20-by-50-foot array with 9-foot panels is equivalent to a 3/4 inch panel at 100 yards, perhaps readable with a simple telescope. Flashing multiple 9-foot shutters randomly at twice per second would still be difficult with purely mechanical timing and control; the maintenance problems described are understandable.

What powers the mechanism? ([[Golems]] are suggested for the future.)

Is there a reference to the shape of the array? Do we know if it's 1x8, 2x4 etc? Not that it makes a huge difference, but a 1x8 array would imply binary encoding. I've known people to be able to read a binary stream almost as fast as normal text.

A 1x8 would have heavy unusable redundancy. There are eight versions of "one light on" each indistinguishable from each other, and, erm, 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 versions of "two lights on". A rectangular array removes a lot of redundancy, you get two-side-by-side, two-up-down, two-left-diagonal, two-right-diagonal, etc. (unsigned comment by [[User:Jgharston]], 1 Jun 2014)
:Now it occurs to me that the ninth panel above the array mentioned in {{MR}} might be just a visual reference to locate the pattern below, rather than a parity bit or other coding function. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

==Digital==
{{MR}} mentions a separate clock panel above the array of eight. Why would it be synchronous?
Is it, rather, a parity bit?

As with ASCII, etc., the eight bits allow for many control characters and subcodes (the ''overhead'') besides the basic alphabet, but how are these separated? Reading semaphore at all at 120 per minute is a good enough trick without multiplexing; I would expect they read numbers which are interpreted or decoded later, by others, but the operators are said to be able to read the overhead as they go.

Clock rate = 2 : Bit Rate = 16 : Bytes/sec = 2

At this rate, a low-res picture 100 pixels square in 8-bit color takes nearly 11/2 hours, 3/4 hour for 4-bit color duplexed. How good a compression algorithm can Lieutenant [[Blouse]] write?

:Use 8bit CMYK (256 colour) encoding, 1 byte per pixel, 2 bytes/sec, header frames encode the picture size. A 100x100px picture is 10000px or 10002 frames total, so 5001 seconds total transmission time, or just over 83 minutes. You could probably improve on that by encoding something like "pixels 25-95 are colour ccmmyykk" for example. Then is just a matter of creating the right imp for the job. --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 15:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

==Health and Safety==
This has been a difficult area for the industry. The obvious dangers of working at great height can be guarded and on-the-job fatalities are much reduced, but the stress of long periods of intense concentration still produces mental casualties. Attention is now being paid to the expensive [[Klatchian Coffee|Klatchian Coffees]] that are associated with the group.

==Alternatives==
We have already seen faster-than-light communication (including voice) demonstrated with the [[Omniscope]]. Why aren't the technomancers of the [[Unreal Estate]] providing a much better system than the Clacks? The Omniscope works better than their [[Dis-organiser]]; co-ordinating the two they could be as rich as Creosote (or Bill Gates.)

hmm. Would mass use of a magical device such as the omniscope for communication and entertainment also bring certain intractable problems with it? If an Omniscope can see and open a doorway to ''everything'' happening ''everywhere'', this would at the very least make it an Internet analogue in the Discworld.(All you would need would perhaps be a sub-fingernail sized sliver cut from an Omniscope - its ''omni-chip'', maybe, or Central Perception Unit? - , and some sort of magnifying device). And just as the Internet is stupendously popular in our dimension of space and time, so it would be on the Disc. In fact, it could be the next big craze after Music with Rocks In and after the Clicks.

Here lies the problem. Mass popular interest in anything technomantic, given a magical focus, has in the past offered a gateway to things from the Dungeon Dimensions to come in and colonise our plane of reality. And why shouldn't it, as from an Omniscope's point of view, the Dungeon Dimensions are a valid sub-set of ''everything'' and ''everywhere''.

To extend the Internet analogy: these would be some malicious viruses and self-replicating malware should they manage to get onto the Omni-Net! Cue Ponder Stibbons and Hex to write the AV protection? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you can see the dangers; I recognise them, but we're talking about Wizards. They don't let the occasional rip in the fabric of reality worry them. They might balk at allowing the general public too much access to their toys, though; simple bloody-mindedness might deter them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 12:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
:: You assume that rips in the fabric of reality would not interfere with any of their 9 moments of food intake. I assure you that even the chance of having to skip even one of them would keep wizards away from the notion of ripping any sorts of fabric. Good heavens! --[[Special:Contributions/94.213.120.101|94.213.120.101]] 11:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

==Major Edit==
I think what's called "Light Clacks" here is actually a one-bit optical telegraph, unrelated to the Clacks. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
*Oh right. Well the characters call it a light clacks in the text, so just assumed. I notice you've grouped it under "Earlier Semaphore" now; it is mentioned after the Clacks introduction in {{TFE}}, but then it could still easily be older technology. Here's the reference if you want to check: ''Monstrous Regiment, Page 137 (Doubleday UK Hardback)''. [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 10:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

== A little crossover with Roundworld? ==

While doing a little search about the Clacks on Google, I noticed some entries coming up with "ClacksWeb".
Unfortunately this is not a website dedicated to the workings of the Clacks, as I was hoping to find, but is the website associated with [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clackmannanshire Clackmannanshire], Britain's Smallest Historic County, located in Scotland. It is otherwise known as "The Wee County" (which naturally brought Feegles to mind) and is usually abbreviated to simply "Clacks".

You know you've got the Disc on you're mind when you see that county name and automatically read it as "Clacksmanshire", and get little visions of a place, probably up towards the Ramtops or Chalk, where Clacksmen might retire to or take a break from the whistling winds and dizzying heights of the towers. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 13:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Clacks

2015-10-21T12:41:16Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Optical */

==Six Shutters?==
Does anyone know why [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clacks Wikipedia]] thinks a clacks array only has six shutters? Eight seems obvious and I thought that had been mentioned.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 04:18, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
*Possibly due to the same reason we have chapter 7a instead of 8 -[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel}} Jun 4 12:42 2007 (IST)
*I thought of the possible dangers, but things come in 7as all the time, and I remember the reference to the sixteen shutters (either both sides or one side of a duplex tower.)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:56, 4 June 2007 (CEST) And in {{T5E}}, just after we meet Skimmer, Lord Vetinari watched the semaphore tower. "All eight of the big shutters facing him were blinking furiously..."
**that would indicated that maybe shutter numbers are not static or that we have a continuity mistake --[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel]] 13:51 05 June 2007
***Not unless someone can find a mention of a six-panel array somewhere in the text. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
**** Well, I don't know whether it's anything to go by, but the Clacks Board Game (that's just arrived!) uses 6 shutters. Must say though I was under the impression it was 8 - but I expect that's something I've assumed due to the power of the number. Also, as far as I can tell, they haven't included details on sending numbers, and I can't help but think theres far more combinations of lights possible than they display. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Practical Matters==

Considering the concentration of computer professionals and general geeks in Discworld fandom, it's odd that I haven't seen much in the way of technical analysis of the Clacks. Perhaps some of the more digital (or just imaginative) contributors could produce some answers to practical problems.
Please add comments, solutions, or just more questions here to see if we can produce a workable model. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

: Here's ours: [http://blip.tv/file/4906971 Clacks, phase I]. ''(Unsigned comment by [[User:76.191.219.152|76.191.219.152]] at 18:55, 20 March 2011)''

==Optical==
At eight miles, a clacks array needs to be 138 times wider than one that can just be read at 100 yards. Supposing very sharp-eyed young operators could see four-inch panels at 100 yards, the panels would be 46 feet square and the array nearly 100 feet wide and 250 feet! high. Since towers have been reported to be 150 feet tall, this is unlikely. Therefore we have to assume optical technology from the Counterweight Continent has produced useful telescopes quite quickly since Twoflower's strange lenses.

:In Jingo, Lord Rust has a telescope, which he claims was only invented the previous year. Of course, the Klatchians have had them for ages. Every reason therefore to expect the Clacks had telescopes.--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 13:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:: According to the Clacks Boardgame yes, they do use telescopes. It also states the distance between towers is around 20 Miles - so based on the above analysis you'd definitely need good lenses. In Raising Steam, Adora mentions every clacksman is equipped with "a very expensive pair of Herr Fleiss's binoculars, made using the very best Uberwald technology". --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Mechanical==
A more manageable 20-by-50-foot array with 9-foot panels is equivalent to a 3/4 inch panel at 100 yards, perhaps readable with a simple telescope. Flashing multiple 9-foot shutters randomly at twice per second would still be difficult with purely mechanical timing and control; the maintenance problems described are understandable.

What powers the mechanism? ([[Golems]] are suggested for the future.)

Is there a reference to the shape of the array? Do we know if it's 1x8, 2x4 etc? Not that it makes a huge difference, but a 1x8 array would imply binary encoding. I've known people to be able to read a binary stream almost as fast as normal text.

A 1x8 would have heavy unusable redundancy. There are eight versions of "one light on" each indistinguishable from each other, and, erm, 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 versions of "two lights on". A rectangular array removes a lot of redundancy, you get two-side-by-side, two-up-down, two-left-diagonal, two-right-diagonal, etc. (unsigned comment by [[User:Jgharston]], 1 Jun 2014)
:Now it occurs to me that the ninth panel above the array mentioned in {{MR}} might be just a visual reference to locate the pattern below, rather than a parity bit or other coding function. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

==Digital==
{{MR}} mentions a separate clock panel above the array of eight. Why would it be synchronous?
Is it, rather, a parity bit?

As with ASCII, etc., the eight bits allow for many control characters and subcodes (the ''overhead'') besides the basic alphabet, but how are these separated? Reading semaphore at all at 120 per minute is a good enough trick without multiplexing; I would expect they read numbers which are interpreted or decoded later, by others, but the operators are said to be able to read the overhead as they go.

Clock rate = 2 : Bit Rate = 16 : Bytes/sec = 2

At this rate, a low-res picture 100 pixels square in 8-bit color takes nearly 11/2 hours, 3/4 hour for 4-bit color duplexed. How good a compression algorithm can Lieutenant [[Blouse]] write?

:Use 8bit CMYK (256 colour) encoding, 1 byte per pixel, 2 bytes/sec, header frames encode the picture size. A 100x100px picture is 10000px or 10002 frames total, so 5001 seconds total transmission time, or just over 83 minutes. You could probably improve on that by encoding something like "pixels 25-95 are colour ccmmyykk" for example. Then is just a matter of creating the right imp for the job. --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 15:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

==Health and Safety==
This has been a difficult area for the industry. The obvious dangers of working at great height can be guarded and on-the-job fatalities are much reduced, but the stress of long periods of intense concentration still produces mental casualties. Attention is now being paid to the expensive [[Klatchian Coffee|Klatchian Coffees]] that are associated with the group.

==Alternatives==
We have already seen faster-than-light communication (including voice) demonstrated with the [[Omniscope]]. Why aren't the technomancers of the [[Unreal Estate]] providing a much better system than the Clacks? The Omniscope works better than their [[Dis-organiser]]; co-ordinating the two they could be as rich as Creosote (or Bill Gates.)

hmm. Would mass use of a magical device such as the omniscope for communication and entertainment also bring certain intractable problems with it? If an Omniscope can see and open a doorway to ''everything'' happening ''everywhere'', this would at the very least make it an Internet analogue in the Discworld.(All you would need would perhaps be a sub-fingernail sized sliver cut from an Omniscope - its ''omni-chip'', maybe, or Central Perception Unit? - , and some sort of magnifying device). And just as the Internet is stupendously popular in our dimension of space and time, so it would be on the Disc. In fact, it could be the next big craze after Music with Rocks In and after the Clicks.

Here lies the problem. Mass popular interest in anything technomantic, given a magical focus, has in the past offered a gateway to things from the Dungeon Dimensions to come in and colonise our plane of reality. And why shouldn't it, as from an Omniscope's point of view, the Dungeon Dimensions are a valid sub-set of ''everything'' and ''everywhere''.

To extend the Internet analogy: these would be some malicious viruses and self-replicating malware should they manage to get onto the Omni-Net! Cue Ponder Stibbons and Hex to write the AV protection? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you can see the dangers; I recognise them, but we're talking about Wizards. They don't let the occasional rip in the fabric of reality worry them. They might balk at allowing the general public too much access to their toys, though; simple bloody-mindedness might deter them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 12:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
:: You assume that rips in the fabric of reality would not interfere with any of their 9 moments of food intake. I assure you that even the chance of having to skip even one of them would keep wizards away from the notion of ripping any sorts of fabric. Good heavens! --[[Special:Contributions/94.213.120.101|94.213.120.101]] 11:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

==Major Edit==
I think what's called "Light Clacks" here is actually a one-bit optical telegraph, unrelated to the Clacks. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
*Oh right. Well the characters call it a light clacks in the text, so just assumed. I notice you've grouped it under "Earlier Semaphore" now; it is mentioned after the Clacks introduction in {{TFE}}, but then it could still easily be older technology. Here's the reference if you want to check: ''Monstrous Regiment, Page 137 (Doubleday UK Hardback)''. [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 10:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Clacks

2015-10-21T12:28:36Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Six Shutters? */

==Six Shutters?==
Does anyone know why [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clacks Wikipedia]] thinks a clacks array only has six shutters? Eight seems obvious and I thought that had been mentioned.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 04:18, 3 June 2007 (CEST)
*Possibly due to the same reason we have chapter 7a instead of 8 -[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel}} Jun 4 12:42 2007 (IST)
*I thought of the possible dangers, but things come in 7as all the time, and I remember the reference to the sixteen shutters (either both sides or one side of a duplex tower.)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:56, 4 June 2007 (CEST) And in {{T5E}}, just after we meet Skimmer, Lord Vetinari watched the semaphore tower. "All eight of the big shutters facing him were blinking furiously..."
**that would indicated that maybe shutter numbers are not static or that we have a continuity mistake --[[User:Lord rel|Lord rel]] 13:51 05 June 2007
***Not unless someone can find a mention of a six-panel array somewhere in the text. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
**** Well, I don't know whether it's anything to go by, but the Clacks Board Game (that's just arrived!) uses 6 shutters. Must say though I was under the impression it was 8 - but I expect that's something I've assumed due to the power of the number. Also, as far as I can tell, they haven't included details on sending numbers, and I can't help but think theres far more combinations of lights possible than they display. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

==Practical Matters==

Considering the concentration of computer professionals and general geeks in Discworld fandom, it's odd that I haven't seen much in the way of technical analysis of the Clacks. Perhaps some of the more digital (or just imaginative) contributors could produce some answers to practical problems.
Please add comments, solutions, or just more questions here to see if we can produce a workable model. - --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

: Here's ours: [http://blip.tv/file/4906971 Clacks, phase I]. ''(Unsigned comment by [[User:76.191.219.152|76.191.219.152]] at 18:55, 20 March 2011)''

==Optical==
At eight miles, a clacks array needs to be 138 times wider than one that can just be read at 100 yards. Supposing very sharp-eyed young operators could see four-inch panels at 100 yards, the panels would be 46 feet square and the array nearly 100 feet wide and 250 feet! high. Since towers have been reported to be 150 feet tall, this is unlikely. Therefore we have to assume optical technology from the Counterweight Continent has produced useful telescopes quite quickly since Twoflower's strange lenses.

:In Jingo, Lord Rust has a telescope, which he claims was only invented the previous year. Of course, the Klatchians have had them for ages. Every reason therefore to expect the Clacks had telescopes.--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 13:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

==Mechanical==
A more manageable 20-by-50-foot array with 9-foot panels is equivalent to a 3/4 inch panel at 100 yards, perhaps readable with a simple telescope. Flashing multiple 9-foot shutters randomly at twice per second would still be difficult with purely mechanical timing and control; the maintenance problems described are understandable.

What powers the mechanism? ([[Golems]] are suggested for the future.)

Is there a reference to the shape of the array? Do we know if it's 1x8, 2x4 etc? Not that it makes a huge difference, but a 1x8 array would imply binary encoding. I've known people to be able to read a binary stream almost as fast as normal text.

A 1x8 would have heavy unusable redundancy. There are eight versions of "one light on" each indistinguishable from each other, and, erm, 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 versions of "two lights on". A rectangular array removes a lot of redundancy, you get two-side-by-side, two-up-down, two-left-diagonal, two-right-diagonal, etc. (unsigned comment by [[User:Jgharston]], 1 Jun 2014)
:Now it occurs to me that the ninth panel above the array mentioned in {{MR}} might be just a visual reference to locate the pattern below, rather than a parity bit or other coding function. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

==Digital==
{{MR}} mentions a separate clock panel above the array of eight. Why would it be synchronous?
Is it, rather, a parity bit?

As with ASCII, etc., the eight bits allow for many control characters and subcodes (the ''overhead'') besides the basic alphabet, but how are these separated? Reading semaphore at all at 120 per minute is a good enough trick without multiplexing; I would expect they read numbers which are interpreted or decoded later, by others, but the operators are said to be able to read the overhead as they go.

Clock rate = 2 : Bit Rate = 16 : Bytes/sec = 2

At this rate, a low-res picture 100 pixels square in 8-bit color takes nearly 11/2 hours, 3/4 hour for 4-bit color duplexed. How good a compression algorithm can Lieutenant [[Blouse]] write?

:Use 8bit CMYK (256 colour) encoding, 1 byte per pixel, 2 bytes/sec, header frames encode the picture size. A 100x100px picture is 10000px or 10002 frames total, so 5001 seconds total transmission time, or just over 83 minutes. You could probably improve on that by encoding something like "pixels 25-95 are colour ccmmyykk" for example. Then is just a matter of creating the right imp for the job. --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 15:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

==Health and Safety==
This has been a difficult area for the industry. The obvious dangers of working at great height can be guarded and on-the-job fatalities are much reduced, but the stress of long periods of intense concentration still produces mental casualties. Attention is now being paid to the expensive [[Klatchian Coffee|Klatchian Coffees]] that are associated with the group.

==Alternatives==
We have already seen faster-than-light communication (including voice) demonstrated with the [[Omniscope]]. Why aren't the technomancers of the [[Unreal Estate]] providing a much better system than the Clacks? The Omniscope works better than their [[Dis-organiser]]; co-ordinating the two they could be as rich as Creosote (or Bill Gates.)

hmm. Would mass use of a magical device such as the omniscope for communication and entertainment also bring certain intractable problems with it? If an Omniscope can see and open a doorway to ''everything'' happening ''everywhere'', this would at the very least make it an Internet analogue in the Discworld.(All you would need would perhaps be a sub-fingernail sized sliver cut from an Omniscope - its ''omni-chip'', maybe, or Central Perception Unit? - , and some sort of magnifying device). And just as the Internet is stupendously popular in our dimension of space and time, so it would be on the Disc. In fact, it could be the next big craze after Music with Rocks In and after the Clicks.

Here lies the problem. Mass popular interest in anything technomantic, given a magical focus, has in the past offered a gateway to things from the Dungeon Dimensions to come in and colonise our plane of reality. And why shouldn't it, as from an Omniscope's point of view, the Dungeon Dimensions are a valid sub-set of ''everything'' and ''everywhere''.

To extend the Internet analogy: these would be some malicious viruses and self-replicating malware should they manage to get onto the Omni-Net! Cue Ponder Stibbons and Hex to write the AV protection? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you can see the dangers; I recognise them, but we're talking about Wizards. They don't let the occasional rip in the fabric of reality worry them. They might balk at allowing the general public too much access to their toys, though; simple bloody-mindedness might deter them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 12:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
:: You assume that rips in the fabric of reality would not interfere with any of their 9 moments of food intake. I assure you that even the chance of having to skip even one of them would keep wizards away from the notion of ripping any sorts of fabric. Good heavens! --[[Special:Contributions/94.213.120.101|94.213.120.101]] 11:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

==Major Edit==
I think what's called "Light Clacks" here is actually a one-bit optical telegraph, unrelated to the Clacks. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
*Oh right. Well the characters call it a light clacks in the text, so just assumed. I notice you've grouped it under "Earlier Semaphore" now; it is mentioned after the Clacks introduction in {{TFE}}, but then it could still easily be older technology. Here's the reference if you want to check: ''Monstrous Regiment, Page 137 (Doubleday UK Hardback)''. [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 10:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Guild of Archaeologists, Antiquarians and Tomb Evacuators

2015-09-22T10:29:56Z

GallifreyanWitch: Created page with " I've just been looking at the stamp set available via the Discworld Emporium. Interesting little details they include with stamps. And it just occurred to me: a guild headed..."

I've just been looking at the stamp set available via the Discworld Emporium. Interesting little details they include with stamps.
And it just occurred to me: a guild headed by a Mr. Robinson, as in Tony Robinson of Time Team and Blackadder fame? The picture, as best I could see, didn't seem to look like him, but the descriptions of it's members also put me in mind of some people on time team.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 10:29, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Guild of Archaeologists, Antiquarians and Tomb Evacuators

2015-09-22T08:56:42Z

GallifreyanWitch: The Guilds motto

One of the [[Guilds]] of [[Ankh-Morpork]]. It appears as a location in the computer game [[Discworld Noir]]. It has a very crotchety doorman, who is both knowledgeable about ancient artifacts and not disposed to let people in unless they are signed in by an official member. The Guild had a very secure section of vaults, where the priceless artifacts of ancient civilizations are stored away, never to see the light of day. They very scrupulously exhibit, in public areas, only the ''really interesting'' stuff such as pottery shards and fragments, with long academic discourses attached saying how excited the Guild was to receive positive proof from close analysis of this fragment that double-handled ceremonial amphorae of the LoftExtention type were in use during the Mycaeniac age in Classical Ephebe, and not the later Spartacreatean age, as is popularly supposed. All the boring incidental stuff that isn't nearly as academically interesting, made in boring materials like silver and gold and which convey only limited information concerning ornamentation and jewelry styles, is kept locked securely away in the lowest and best-secured vaults, and we don't have too much of ''that'' sort of trivial incidental thing anyway.

''Stealth Archaeology'' is a related (and deniable) discipline that largely appears to involve avoiding all inventive and deadly traps, and then getting away with the loot before the site's owner finds out. This may well be fully covered by the ''Tomb Evacuators'' part of the job description. Ask Laredo Cronk or [[Alice Band]], perhaps...

Known members:

* Miss [[Alice Band]];
* [[Lorenzo Cronk|Laredo Cronk]];
* Mr Robinson, Guild Master;
* [[Ilsa Vargberg]]

The Guild is based at 27b [[By The Wall]], possibly a very apt location nearby a redundant section of city wall. Maybe the vaults are also a relic of the active city wall once having been here?

The Guild's Motto, as mentioned in Discworld Noir, is ''Serpentis Odi'', which roughly translates to "I Hate Snakes", apparently expressing the opinion of a fellow Archaeologist, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Jones Dr. Jones].

[[Category:Guilds|Archaeologists, Antiquarians and Tomb Evacuators,Guild of]]
[[Category:Ankh-Morpork Businesses|Archaeologists, Antiquarians and Tomb Evacuators,Guild of]]

Talk:Book:The Shepherd's Crown

2015-09-09T22:59:32Z

GallifreyanWitch:

I'm three or four chapters, or equivalent of, into the new book. Things happen. I think I can see what Terry was doing here in what he knew was going to be his last book. I won't spoil it for anyone yet to read it. But be prepared for a big shocker in the first thirty pages. And even this is setting up bigger things still. I also get the feeling this last book is Terry back on form again after somewhat losing the Pratchett voice in the previous novels. A worthy farewell. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 18:52, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
:I opined before that {{ISWM}} was his best effort after the illness. He said he'd used up Granny Weatherwax, but apparently he could still do a younger Witch. I wonder if a more retiring lead who tended to be in the third person was easier. TSC is not here yet, of course. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:11, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
apparently released in the USA today (3rd September '15). Is this also true in Canada or do you have to wait for longer? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 09:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
:Humm. I may have been shafted by the Canadian book-selling industry again. Having taken my my order, they now say "out of stock online". It could have been here from England by now. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC) ...cancelled and ordered from England as I should have in the first place. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:28, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't started my copy yet. I haven't read the rest of the Tiffany Aching series before now - simply haven't got around to it - and the idea of the last novel is a bit daunting (but I'm in half a mind to read it backwards, so knowing the future I learn the past). Nonetheless, thought I might share this which came into my inbox today from the Discworld Emporium:
:Unsurprising perhaps, but no less meaningful, Professor Sir Terry Pratchett OBE Blackboard Monitor achieved his 10th number one in the UK book charts with his 41st and final Discworld novel - a final Hurrah and 'mind how you go' from our beloved author in a manner most fitting - in words, on pages, bound in a book.
What a final Hurrah in deed.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:59, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Olden Ones

2015-09-09T22:50:55Z

GallifreyanWitch: The Endless and the Ogdoad

==Ancient Ones vs. Old High Ones vs. Olden Ones==

I know {{COM}} refers to these beings as "Old High Ones"... {{TLF}} also refers to a group of beings described as the "Ancient Ones", who know everything about all the universes- and how Ankh-Morpork has the strongest smell of all cities, everywhere.

Same group of beings? [[User:TC01|TC01]] 23:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
:Sure; how many gangs of ancient super-gods could there be? That we know personally? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

::Alright, then, I'll redirect [[Ancient Ones]] here, '''''as''''' is done with [[Old High Ones]]. [[User:TC01|TC01]] 00:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:"As is done", Grasshopper, "''as''". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

How many of them are there (1, 7, 7a)? (unsigned question by [[User:Confusion]], 00:40, 6 July 2011
: Only one left of 7a as far as we know ([[Azrael]]). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:55, 6 July 2011 (CEST)

== Similar in another universe? ==

In my Internet wanderings I recently stumbled across [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endless_(comics) The Endless] of The Sandman Comics by Niel Gaiman. I haven't read the comics, nor delved deeply into the references to the Olden Ones of the Discworld, but to my uneducated mind there seem to be certain similarities between the two (and to a lesser extent some aspects seem similar to other supernaturals of the Disc). As a brief example, taken from the intro to their Wikipedia page, they are described thus:
:"The characters embody powerful forces or aspects of the universe... They have existed since the dawn of time and are thought to be among the most powerful beings in the universe. They are distinct from and supposedly more powerful than most gods". The page goes on to say they "spend most their time fulfilling their functions as embodiments of natural forces... none of them are "representations" or "personifications" of their function, they simply are their function".

Their number consist of Destiny, Death (who, I cannot help but add, is female, wears black (and those three associations alone remind my of [[Susan Sto-Helit|a lady of the Disc]]) and wears an Ankh), Dream, Destruction, Desire, Delirium and Despair (so thats one less than associated with the Disc).
It seems on the Disc these forces have got personifications to fulfill their roles for them.

Among the other things that strike me as somewhat similar to other beings of the Disc are the fact that "If one of the Endless is destroyed, then he or she will be replaced by another aspect of their role" - a little reminiscent of the Auditors to my mind and how their speech is represented in different ways (which immediately draws to mind [[Death|THE VOICE]]).

On a completely different note, the Dictionary.com word of the day recently was "[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad Ogdoad]" which suddenly reminded me of how among the Ancient Egyptian deities and creation myths were these eight beings who represent the "primal, fundamental state of the beginning" and who (along with Ra) made everything else. Now, the Egyptians may have had these eight deities, but paired them up so they represented four concepts: "the primordial waters (Nu and Naunet), air or invisibility (Amun and Amaunet), darkness (Kuk and Kauket), and eternity or infinity (Huh and Hauhet)". This, to me, sounds as if the Discworld idea slipped through to our Roundworld, but as so often the case we didn't quite understand or only caught half the message, so knowing there were eight but only having four concepts to attach them to we just we just did the best we could with the information we had.

Interesting parallels, at the very least, I think. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:50, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

User:GallifreyanWitch

2015-08-20T22:23:56Z

GallifreyanWitch: A Calendar

Sorry if I'm not really meant to do a Bio - don't know what else to put for the time being and despite searching can't find any guidelines.

'''Please forgive spelling errors - my keyboard plays up at times and is a nightmare'''

I would also like to appologise in advance or overly long posts - I sort-of follow Ridcully's philosophy that anything worth taking a long time to explain is quite an interesting or worthwhile topic to explore

== The Basics ==

AKA: Layla Wolf/Verity/[The] Gallifreyan Witch

Female

Age: Early Twenty's

The mind, heart and soul wanders other worlds, but the physical form is based in Wales.

Member of the Discworld MUD - user: VerityWolf (don't play it as much as I'd like to sadly)

First Pratchett book I read was THUD! - A friend of my mum had recommended it and while my mum didn't get it (she doesn't really get that sort of humor based on metaphors etc) I loved it and have been hooked ever since.

Huge fan of Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, though I have a sneaking suspicion the Discworld is becoming a permanent fixture in my mind, more so even than the two universes mentioned above. When my mind wanders, it wanders the streets of Ankh-Morpork, the Ramtop mountains and the slopes of Cori Celesti, rather than through time and space or the streets of Victorian London as it so often has. I justify this mentally in someways by recognising the Disc is a world and mirror of worlds - and so both my other fandoms will have their parallels on the Disc somewhere. Also a fan of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, The Farseer Trilogy, The Chronicles of Ancient Darkness and His Dark Materials - but none have touched my heart and taken over my mind to the extent of the Whoniverse, Holmsiverse or Discworld.

Currently studying Herbal Medicine BSc (Hons). Have a long standing interest in 'alternative' (but lets face it - truly traditional) medicine and 'energy' work. Consequently I find the activities of the Witches fascinating and often all to close to the truth.

Previous studies have included History (focusing on the medieval period), Archaeology, Psychology and Astronomy.

Hobbies (other than dreaming and reading) include Medieval Re-enactment (which includes Archery, Quarterstaff and one day Sword fighting, Fingerloop braiding), Lord of the Rings Online and Music (the violin - but not at all good at it due to muscle pains it causes - , plucked psaltery and tabor pipe and drum).

Currently writing up the adventures on the Disc that I dream about. Got about 4 main stories on the go, 3ish on the edge of my mind and 2 short story all in the same (new) thread. With just their bare bones (the central story lines that are even then yet to be fleshed out) the first and second ones word counts are over 14,000 words already! Now if only I could harness that writing magic and use it to get so real work done for my degree. Working hard not to make them Mary-Sueish, but it's hard when you place a sort of mirror of yourself on another world and see it through their eyes and feel it with their heart. At present I'm writing to record them and get them to move beyond simply my mind. Perhaps one day, I may improve and publish them online if I ever feel they may have some worth to others and can get over my lack of confidence.

Also working on a timeline both in general and specifically for Vetinari - see talk page (it's a shame there isn't a page attached to the character pages enabling a suggested timeline for the character to be displayed and edited - ''hint hint'')

I'm also learning to draw - though I'm not very good - and will hopefully one day be able to contribute fan art and illustrate the stories I dream up.

== Happy Yule 2013 ==
I do feel sorry for my family. They've got me A Blink of the Screen and Dodger which I'm absolutely delighted with and are putting up with me wittering on about the Disc - which they don't always 'get'. And a friend has got me Raising Steam (which my parents had said not to get on the basis it would distract me from my studies) and The Complete Ankh-Morpork - which I am absolutely engrossed in. Consequently my mind is back on the Disc, rather than in much needed revision.

== A thought on the Year of the Reciprocating Llama ==

Recently my mind has been on stamps (of the Discworld variety, naturally) thanks to the Discworld Emporium bringing out some special limited edition ones to celebrate 10 years since they started making them and 10 years since Going Postal. On a side note I'm rather delighted to have found myself the owner of a smiling penny patrician as well as a pure black Vetinari Four pence, even if I didn't get one of the Blue triangles, an autographed card, autographed first day cover or the solid gold penny patrician - how a couple of sports can make up for the realization I missed all that I haven't a clue, but it does.

Anyway...

Something occurred to me, when studying the sheet of Vetinari Four Penny's I bought that along the bottom of it is the line: "Honouring Our Esteemed Tyrant - Lord Havelock Vetinari - Year of the Reciprocating Llama".

For some reason it was playing on my mind over the last couple of days.

Then a particle of inspiration, or perhaps understanding, hit me.

The [[Year of the Reciprocating Llama]] is 2014.

Vetinari is still the Patrician as of that date! (Talk about survivability - I wonder if he's set a record for the longest lasting Patrician yet).

We may not have the stories up to the present day yet, and the characters may be getting on a bit in years (By my calculations Havelock would be 74/75, Sam 73/74, Moist 50/51, Ridcully 98/99, Granny Weatherwax 88/89, Susan 44/45, Carrot 45/46 and Young Sam would be 24/25) even if they're not really showing it (if the Penny Patricians and Penny Moists are anything to go by - time seems to have gone a bit wibbly-wobbly) but there seems some continuity, some stretching of the Time Line beyond the books to the present day! Unless of course there is some strange parallel-shift that means 2014 (and the year of the reciprocating llama) on Roundworld is equivalent to the year 2000/1 (10 years after Going Postal took place) on Discworld. That still adds a few years on top of our already established timeline (with Vetinari in his 60s, Moist in his mid-30s etc).

Mind aching a little at playing around with numbers and dates, but feeling a little happy hope that the former conclusion is accurate.

Oh, and another thought! Unseen Academicals takes place in the Year of the Pensive Hare - according to the Discworld Stamps website that correlates to 2009. That date seems a little far ahead, and leaves quite a long gap after main confirmed event dates (e.g. Thud etc in 1990/1 and Snuff in 1995/6?) and mix up the order a bit, but applying the same logic that the names applied on roundworld are a good few years behind and using the assumption 2000/1 = 10 yrs after Going Postal, that could place it around 1995/6 - the same year as Snuff?

-------------

== Fanfiction ==

I've finally started publishing some fanfiction!

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2545592 Divination After Dark] - 2014.10.31 - Mistress Weatherwax during one dark and stormy Soul's Cake night recalls a scene from her youth.

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2719736/chapters/6103628 Personent Hodie] - 2014.12.05 - a Filk based on the Medieval song of the same name - also in image format on [http://gallifreyan-witch.deviantart.com/art/Personent-Hodie-narrow-498530613 Deviant Art]

-----------

== 12th March 2015 ==

As a rule, I wouldn't publish my fanart here - at most I'd provide links - as I know this is a wiki page and I don't want to swamp it with what belongs on a personal blog or website. But then, some rules are meant to be broken, or at least bent, and this is hardly normal circumstances.
My own little tribute, drawn the night of the 12th after hearing the news, though only published on the 16th when I finally got home to an Internet connection.
[[File:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg|thumbnail]]

== This Election... ==

[https://www.facebook.com/votevetinari Vote Vetinari]

== A New Calendar ==

Today (2015.08.20) My 2016 Witches Diary arrived. There's quite a few dates in there for events not mentioned on the main page for festivals etc. - so I'll hopefully go through it and add some in the near future.

On a slightly different tangent I've started working on a google calendar with the dates: something importable for many calendar programs as well as viewable online. According to google one should be able to:
-Find your public calendar by searching on Google.
-See your public calendar on a website or synced with another application.
-Subscribe to your public calendar and view it within Google Calendar.
-View your public calendar without using Google Calendar.

It's still quite rough, but here's the links:

xml - https://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/ald59q0e10th6jlvpt0t6q8tn8%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic

ical - https://www.google.com/calendar/ical/ald59q0e10th6jlvpt0t6q8tn8%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics

html (in theory imbedable in websites) - https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ald59q0e10th6jlvpt0t6q8tn8%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Europe/London

(If you don't speak computer - like I don't - this means: '''Web browser (HTML)''': Other people can view your calendar directly in their browser window, like Chrome or Firefox, without signing in to Google Calendar. '''Google Calendar (ICAL)''': Other people who are signed in to Google Calendar can add your public calendar. '''Another application (XML or ICAL)''': Other people can view and subscribe to your calendar using calendar applications like Outlook or Apple Calendar. You'll need to choose the format (XML or ICAL) that matches what your calendar application uses. Note: The ICAL link downloads a file that ends in “.ics”)

I don't know what all the dates are - some might not even be Discworld but were listed in the diary and didn't ring any bells as roundworld dates, and theres duplicates of some. As I said, it's still quite rough, but something that hopefully might be of interest to others: I find I can have it on my tablet calendar which helps keep me up to date - literally.

Talk:Morpork

2015-07-06T15:05:17Z

GallifreyanWitch:

== The Owl ==

Surely Morpork is represented on the coat of arms as a owl? (In this world it is a Tasmanian Spotted Owl) [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:38, 23 February 2012 (CET).

Thanks to a discussion on the Discworld Monthly facebook page, it has been revealed that on Roundworld the Morepork is another name for the Tasmanian spotted owl, native to Tasmania and New Zealand (I.e. the [[Foggy Islands]]?). In fact with regards to Ankh-Morpork it is mentioned on the birds [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morepork Wikipedia] page, which also suggests Pterry had not heard of the bird at the time of naming the city, but retroactively associated the two. Again based on the facebook thread, apparently the name comes from the birds "distinctive hoot" that sounds like "More Pork", and someone else pointed out that apparently hearing the hoot is meant to be an omen of death.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 14:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Its just occured to me... if the cry of the bird heralds death... and the Ankh is a symbol of life... thats quite a nice, sort of, duality going on there. If Pterry really didn't know about that when he first wrote it, it looks like this is another case where Narrativia smiled and made things magically work out. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 15:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Morpork

2015-07-06T14:49:37Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* The Owl */

Book:A Practical Manual for the Modern Witch

2015-06-11T11:57:32Z

GallifreyanWitch: Created page with "Mentioned on the Discworld Emporium "About Us" page and according to Amazon due for release 20 August 2015. An extract from the Amazon page describes it thus: :... 2016's dia..."

Mentioned on the Discworld Emporium "About Us" page and according to Amazon due for release 20 August 2015.
An extract from the Amazon page describes it thus:

:... 2016's diary gives a long-awaited insight into the wit and wisdom of some of the Discworld's most-loved characters, the Witches.
:Or, as Granny Weatherwax puts it:
::"I don't hold with diaries. If a witch don't know where she's been or where she should be, no amount of writing it down in long ad diverse letters will make any difference.
::There are some who say that making a note of birthdays and the like will mean you get a lot of presents but I think Gytha is wrong.
::But suit yourself.
::Personally I can't be doing with it."
:~ Esme Weatherwax

Talk:Book:The Compleat Discworld Atlas

2015-06-11T11:47:30Z

GallifreyanWitch: A update

Looked at the Emporium homepage. Love the unicursal hexagram carved on the floor - that was Aleistar Crowley's trademark...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:53, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

== An Update ==
A years passed and it's still not out, but having had another look on the Discworld Emporium page which mentions it, it now says it will be released this year - and given it mentions the 2016 diary in the same sentence (and that's already being listed on Amazon) I guess there is hope yet. And,at the very least, it's still on their minds and being worked on - so this may yet become more than just a rumored book forever more. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 11:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Bibliography

2015-06-11T11:39:16Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Diaries */

A Terry Pratchett bibliography (originally derived from [[Wikipedia:|Wikipedia]], the free encyclopedia on 3 July 2005 and ppint's bibliography). All dates are of first publication. Revised editions and collections are not listed. The recommended reading order of the books is given in the article [[Reading Order]]. Several books are adapted to the theatre, [[TV and film adaptations|TV or film]] or are planned to be.

==Books==

===Discworld===
====Novels====
* 01 {{COM}} (Colin Smythe, 1983)
* 02 {{TLF}} (Colin Smythe, 1986)
* 03 {{ER}} ([[Gollancz]], Colin Smythe, 1987)
* 04 {{M}} (Gollancz, Colin Smythe, 1987)
* 05 {{S}} (Gollancz, Colin Smythe, 1989)
* 06 {{WS}} (Gollancz, 1989)
* 07 {{P}} (Gollancz, 1989)
* 08 {{G!G!}} (Gollancz, 1989)
* 09 {{E}} (Gollancz, 1990)
* 10 {{MP}} (Gollancz, 1990)
* 11 {{RM}} (Gollancz, 1991)
* 12 {{WA}} (Gollancz, 1991)
* 13 {{SG}} (Gollancz, 1992)
* 14 {{LL}} (Gollancz, 1992)
* 15 {{MAA}} (Gollancz, 1993)
* 16 {{SM}} (Gollancz, 1994)
* 17 {{IT}} (Gollancz, 1994)
* 18 {{M!!!}} (Gollancz, 1994)
* 19 {{FOC}} (Gollancz, 1996)
* 20 {{H}} (Gollancz, 1996)
* 21 {{J}} (Gollancz, 1997)
* 22 {{TLC}} (Doubleday, 1998)
* 23 {{CJ}} (Doubleday, 1998)
* 24 {{TFE}} (Doubleday, 1999)
* 25 {{TT}} (Doubleday, 2000)
* 26 {{TOT}} (Doubleday, 2001)
* 27 {{TLH}} (Gollancz, 2001)
* 28 {{TAM}} (Doubleday, 2001)
* 29 {{NW}} (Doubleday, 2002)
* 30 {{WFM}} (Doubleday, 2003)
* 31 {{MR}} (Doubleday, 2003)
* 32 {{HFOS}} (Doubleday, 2004)
* 33 {{GP}} (Doubleday, 2004)
* 34 {{T!}} (Doubleday, 2005)
* 35 {{W}} (Doubleday, 2006)
* 36 {{MM}} (Doubleday, 2007)
* 37 {{UA}} (Doubleday, 2009)
* 38 {{ISWM}} (Doubleday, 2010)
* 39 {{SN}} (Doubleday, 2011)
* 40 {{RS}} (Doubleday, 2013)
* 41 [[Book:The Shepherd's Crown|The Shepherd's Crown]] (Doubleday, 2015)

====Graphic Novels====
* {{COM}} The Graphic Novel (Corgi 1992)
* {{TLF}} The Graphic Novel (Corgi 1993)
* {{M}} The Big Comic (Gollancz 1994)
* {{G!G!}} A Discworld Graphic Novel (Gollancz 2000)
* {{E}} The illustrated Eric (Gollancz 2011)
* {{TLH}} (Gollancz, 2001)
* [[Book:The Illustrated Wee Free Men|''The Illustrated Wee Free Men'']] (Doubleday 2008)
* Colour of Magic and Light Fantastic (omnibus) (Doubleday 2008)
* Soul Music: The Illustrated Screenplay (Corgi 1997)
* Wyrd Sisters: The Illustrated Screenplay (Corgi 1998)
* Terry Pratchett's Hogfather: The Illustrated Screenplay (Gollancz 2006)
* Terry Pratchett's The Colour of Magic: The Illustrated Screenplay (Gollancz 2008)

====Collections====
* The Witches Trilogy (1994)
* Death Trilogy (1998)
* The Colour of Magic / The Light Fantastic (1999)
* The City Watch (1999)
* Rincewind the Wizzard (1999)
* Tales of Discworld (2000)
* Gods Trilogy (2000)
* The Wee Free Men: The Beginning (2010)

====Rumored====
* [[Book:Raising Taxes|''Raising Taxes'']]
* [[Book:Scouting for Trolls|''Scouting for Trolls'']]
* [[Book:The Missing Chapter|''The Missing Chapter'']]
* [[Book:Atlas|''Atlas'']]
* [[Book:Running Water| ''Running Water'']]

====Short Stories====
* {{TB}} (1992)
* {{TOC}} (1993)
* {{SALF}} (1998)
* [[Short Story:Death and What Comes Next|''Death and What Comes Next'']] (2002)
* [[Short Story:A Collegiate Casting-Out of Devilish Devices|''A Collegiate Casting-Out of Devilish Devices'']] (2005)
* [[Short Story:We Can Rule You Wholesale|''We Can Rule You Wholesale'']] (1999)
* [[Short Story:Thud - a historical perspective|''Thud - a historical perspective'']] (2002)
* ''[[Ankh-Morpork Scouting (and possibly Urban Survival) Federation|The Minutes of the Meeting To Form The Proposed Ankh-Morpork Federation of Scouts]]'', (2007)

====Maps====
* {{SAM}} (Corgi, 1993)
* {{DM}} (Corgi, 1995)
* {{TGL}} (Corgi, 1998)
* {{DD}} (Corgi, 1999)
* {{CAM}} (Doubleday, 2012)

====Companions====
* {{DC}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]]) (Gollancz, 1994, 1997)
* {{DC}} ''Updated'' (with [[Stephen Briggs]]) (Gollancz, 2001)
* {{NDC}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]]) (Gollancz, 2003)
* {{TR}}: The Discworld Companion...So Far (with [[Stephen Briggs]]) (Gollancz, 2012)

====Science of Discworld====
* {{SOD1}} (with [[Ian Stewart]] and [[Jack Cohen]]) (Ebury Press, 1999)
* {{SOD2}} (with [[Ian Stewart]] and [[Jack Cohen]]) (Ebury Press 2002)
* {{SOD3}} (with [[Ian Stewart]] and [[Jack Cohen]]) (Ebury Press, 2005)
* {{SOD4}} (with [[Ian Stewart]] and [[Jack Cohen]]) (Ebury Press, 2013)

====Miscellany====
* {{NOC}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]] and Tina Hannan) (Doubleday, 1999) (Corgi, 2001)
* [[Book:The Josh Kirby Discworld Portfolio|The Josh Kirby Discworld Portfolio]] 1993
* [[Book:The Pratchett Portfolio: A Compendium of Discworld |The Pratchett Portfolio: A Compendium of Discworld Characters]] (with [[Paul Kidby]]) (Gollancz,1996)
* {{AOD}} (with [[Paul Kidby]]) (HarperCollins, 2004)
* [[Book:Where's My Cow?|''Where's My Cow?'']] (illustrated spin-off of {{T!}} ) (Doubleday, 2005)
* [[Book:The Unseen University Cut-out Book|''The Unseen University Cut-out Book'']] (with [[Bernard Pearson]] and Alan Batley) (Doubleday, 2006)
* [[Book:The Wit and Wisdom of Discworld|''The Wit and Wisdom of Discworld'']] (with [[Stephen Briggs]]) (Doubleday, 2007)
* [[Book:The Folklore of Discworld|''The Folklore of Discworld'']] (with Dr. [[Jacqueline Simpson]]) (Doubleday, 2008)
* {{TWOP}} (illustrated spin-off of {{SN}}) (Doubleday, 2012)
* {{W}} - [[Maddy Prior|musical version]] - the story of {{W}} retold using English folk-music, provided by a house-band Nanny Ogg would have not only loved but would have wanted to sing with - Steeleye Span.
* [[Book:Mrs Bradshaw's Handbook|Mrs Bradshaw's Handbook]] (Doubleday, 2014)

====Theatre adaptations====
All adapted by [[Stephen Briggs]] except for Lords and Ladies which is adapted by [[Irana Brown]]
* {{M}} The Play (Corgi, 1996)
* {{WS}} The Play (Corgi, 1996)
* {{G!G!}} The Play (Corgi, 1997)
* {{MAA}} The Play (Corgi, 1997)
* {{M!!!}} The Play (Samuel French, 1998)
* {{CJ}} The Play (Samuel French, 1999)
* {{LL}} The Play (Samuel French, 2001)
* {{TFE}} The Play (Methuen, 2002)
* {{NW}} The Play (Methuen, 2004)
* {{MR}} The Play (Methuen, 2004)
* {{J}} The Play (Methuen, 2005)
* {{IT}} The Play (Methuen, 2005)
* {{GP}} The Play (Methuen, 2005)
* {{TAM}} The Play (Oxford University Press, 2006)

====Gaming====
=====Board games=====
* Thud: Strategy game for two players available from 2008
* Watch Out: Discworld Board Game from The Cunning Artificer 2004.
* [[Ankh Morpork Discworld Board Game|Discworld Ankh-Morpork]], from Treefrog Games 2011.
* Guards! Guards! A Discworld Boardgame from Z-Man Games 2011.
* The Witches, from Treefrog Games 2013

=====Computer games=====
* [[Discworld (game)|Discworld]], PC/Mac/Sony Playstation/Sega Saturn game, developed by Perfect 10 Productions and Teeny Weeny Games, published by Psygnosis 1995.
* [[Discworld II: Missing Presumed...!?]], PC/Sony Playstation/Sega Saturn game, developed by Perfect Entertainment, published by Psygnosis (PC/PSX versions) and Sega (Saturn version) 1996.
* [[Discworld Noir]], GSP Games 2000.
=====Tabletop role-playing=====
* [[GURPS Discworld]], with Phil Masters (SJGames, 1998; maps by [[Stephen Briggs]] and [[Stephen Player]], art by [[Paul Kidby]]) Discworld converted to the GURPS RPG system Later rebranded under the "Powered by GURPS" banner as the ''Discworld Roleplaying Game''
* [[GURPS Discworld Also]], with Phil Masters and John M. Ford (SJGames, 2001; art by Sean Murray) Additional material converted to the GURPS system

====Quiz====
* [[Book:The Unseen University Challenge|''The Unseen University Challenge'']] (quiz book by {{wp|Dave Langford|Dave Langford}}) (Gollancz, 1996)
* [[Book:The Wyrdest Link|''The Wyrdest Link'']] (quiz book by {{wp|Dave Langford|Dave Langford}}) (Gollancz, 2002, 2006)

====Diaries====
* {{UUD}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]])
* {{CWD}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]])
* {{AGD}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]])
* {{FGD}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]])
* {{TGD}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]])
* {{RVD}} (with [[Stephen Briggs]] and [[Paul Kidby]])
* [[Book:The Celebrated Discworld Almanak|''The Celebrated Discworld Almanak'']] for the Year of the Prawn being the common year 2005 (with [[Bernard Pearson]])
* [[Book:The Ankh-Morpork Post Office Handbook & Diary 2007|''The Ankh-Morpork Post Office Handbook & Diary 2007'']] (with [[Stephen Briggs]] and [[Paul Kidby]])
* [[Book:Lu Tse's Yearbook of Englightenment 2008|''Lu Tse's Yearbook of Enlightenment 2008'']] (with [[Stephen Briggs]] and Paul Kidby) (Gollancz, 2007) Release Date 30 Aug 2007
* [[A Practical Manual for the Modern Witch]] (2016 Diary)

====Discworld Calendars====
* The Discworld: Day-to-Day Calendar
* Discworld - Mini Calendar 2000
* The Discworld Calendar: 2001
* The Discworld Calendar: 2002
* Discworld Calendar 2004
* Discworld Calendar 2005
* Terry Pratchett's Hogfather Discworld Calendar 2007
* Terry Pratchett's Discworld Collectors' Edition Calendar 2008
* Terry Pratchett's Discworld Collectors' Edition Calendar 2009
* Terry Pratchett's Discworld Collectors' Edition Calendar 2010
* Terry Pratchett's Discworld Collector's Edition Calendar 2011
* Terry Pratchett's Discworld Collectors' Edition Calendar 2012

====Anthologies====
* The Flying Sorcerers, ed. Peter Haining, Souvenir Press, 1998: multi-author anthology including the first release of the Pratchett short story '''''Turntables of the Night'''''.
* Legends, ed. Robert Silverberg, Souvenir Press, 1998: multi-author anthology including the first release of the Pratchett short story '''''The Sea and Little Fishes'''''.
* [[Book:the Ultimate Encyclopaedia of Fantasy (the definitive illustrated guide|''The Ultimate Encyclopaedia of Fantasy'' (the definitive illustrated guide)]] (Carlton Books 1998). Terry contributed a preface.

===Non-Discworld===

====Novels====
* [[Book:The Carpet People|''The Carpet People'']] ([[Colin Smythe]], 1971)
* [[Book:The Dark Side of the Sun|''The Dark Side of the Sun'']] (Colin Smythe, 1976)
* [[Book:Strata|''Strata'']] (Colin Smythe, 1981)
* {{T}} ([[Doubleday]], 1989)
* {{TUC}} (with [[Gray Jolliffe]]) (Gollancz, 1989)
* {{GO}} (with [[Neil Gaiman]]) (Gollancz, 1990)
* {{D}} (Doubleday, 1990)
* {{WI}} (Doubleday, 1990)
* {{OY}} (Doubleday, 1992)
* {{JATD}} (Doubleday, 1993)
* {{JATB}} (Doubleday, 1996)
* {{N}} (Doubleday, 2008)
* ''[[Book:Dodger|Dodger]]'' (Doubleday, 2012)

====The ''Long Earth'' series====
''Co-written with {{wp|Stephen Baxter|Stephen Baxter}}''
* ''[[Book:The Long Earth|The Long Earth]]'' (Doubleday, 2012)
* ''[[Book:The Long War|The Long War]] (Doubleday, 2013)
* ''[[Book:The Long Mars|The Long Mars]] (Doubleday, April 2014)
* ''[[Book:The Long Utopia|The Long Utopia]] (Doubleday and Random House, June 2015)

====Plays====
* [[Book:Johnny and the Dead (playscript)|''Johnny and the Dead'']] (adapted by [[Stephen Briggs]]) (Oxford University Press, ?)
* [[Book:Nation (playscript)|''Nation'']] (adapted by Mark Ravenhill) (Oxford University Press, 2009)
* [[Book:The Rince Cycle|''The Rince Cycle'']] (adapted by Stephen Briggs) (Oberon Modern Plays, to be released 20th February 2015.

====Short Stories====
* [[Short story:The Hades Business|''The Hades Business'']] (1963) Republished in {{BS}}
* [[Short story:Night Dweller|''Night Dweller'']] (1965)
* [[Short story:Twenty Pence With Envelope and Seasonal Greetings|''Twenty Pence With Envelope and Seasonal Greetings'']] (1987) Republished in {{BS}}
* [[Short story:Final Reward|''Final Reward'']] (1988) Republished in {{BS}}
* [[Short story:Incubust|''Incubust'']] (1988)
* [[Short story:Turntables of the Night|''Turntables of the Night'']] (1989) Republished in {{BS}}
* [[Short story:History in the Faking|''History in the Faking'']] (1990)
* [[Short story:ifdefDEBUG "world/enough" "time"|''#ifdefDEBUG + "world/enough" + "time"'']] (1990)
* [[Short story:Hollywood Chickens|''Hollywood Chickens'']] (1990) Republished in {{BS}}
* [[Short story:Once And Future|''Once And Future'']] (1995) Republished in {{BS}}
* [[Short story:The Megabyte Drive to Believe in Santa Claus|''The Megabyte Drive to Believe in Santa Claus'']] (1996) Republished in {{BS}}
* {{OMWF}} ([[New England Science Fiction Association]], 2004) is a collection of several of the above Dw and Non-Dw short stories. Terry Pratchett also wrote several stories under the pseudonym [[Uncle Jim]] for the ''Bucks Free Press''.

====Anthologies====
* {{BS}} (2012)
* [[Book:Dragons At Crumbling Castle|''Dragons At Crumbling Castle'']] (Doubleday, 11 September 2014)
* [[Book:A Slip of the Keyboard|''A Slip of the Keyboard'': Collected Non-fiction Writings]] (Doubleday, 25 Sep 2014)

====Miscellany====
* The Richard Dimbleby Lecture 2010: available here[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/01/terry-pratchett-alzheimer-assisted-suicide], abridged.
* ''[[Book:The Dodger's Guide to London|The Dodger's Guide to London]]'' (Doubleday, 2013)
* Terry writing on [http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/15/a-butt-of-my-own-jokes-terry-pratchett-on-the-disease-that-finally-claimed-him on the Embuggerance]

==Publishers==
* [[B. Wahlströms]]
* [[Colin Smythe]]
* [[Doubleday]]
* [[Gollancz]]
* [[HarperCollins]]
* [[Heyne]]
* [[Random House]]

==External links==
* [[wikipedia:Terry Pratchett|Terry Pratchett]] on Wikipedia
* [[wikipedia:Discworld|Discworld]] on Wikipedia
* [http://www.terrypratchett.co.uk/ Terry Pratchett] - Verlagsgruppe Random House / Doubleday / etc.
* [http://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/ Terry Pratchett Books] - (HarperCollins)
* [http://www.colinsmythe.co.uk/ Colin Smythe Ltd]
* [http://www.i-m-t.demon.co.uk/afp/biblio1.txt ppint's extensive bibliography, part 1 (Discworld works)]
* [http://www.i-m-t.demon.co.uk/afp/biblio2.txt ppint's extensive bibliography, part 2 (non-Discworld works)]
* [http://www.i-m-t.demon.co.uk/afp/biblio3.txt ppint's extensive bibliography, part 3 (foreign language editions)]
* [http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/terry-pratchett/ Fantastic fiction]

[[Category:Books by Terry Pratchett| ]]
[[Category:Discworld Series| ]]
[[Category:Witches Series| ]]
[[Category:Rincewind Series| ]]
[[Category:Death Series| ]]
[[Category:Watch Series| ]]
[[Category:Tiffany Series| ]]
[[Category:Maps| ]]
[[Category:Bromeliad series| ]]
[[Category:Johnny Maxwell Series| ]] [[de:Bücher:Übersicht]]

User:GallifreyanWitch

2015-04-30T15:06:04Z

GallifreyanWitch:

Sorry if I'm not really meant to do a Bio - don't know what else to put for the time being and despite searching can't find any guidelines.

'''Please forgive spelling errors - my keyboard plays up at times and is a nightmare'''

I would also like to appologise in advance or overly long posts - I sort-of follow Ridcully's philosophy that anything worth taking a long time to explain is quite an interesting or worthwhile topic to explore

== The Basics ==

AKA: Layla Wolf/Verity/[The] Gallifreyan Witch

Female

Age: Early Twenty's

The mind, heart and soul wanders other worlds, but the physical form is based in Wales.

Member of the Discworld MUD - user: VerityWolf (don't play it as much as I'd like to sadly)

First Pratchett book I read was THUD! - A friend of my mum had recommended it and while my mum didn't get it (she doesn't really get that sort of humor based on metaphors etc) I loved it and have been hooked ever since.

Huge fan of Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, though I have a sneaking suspicion the Discworld is becoming a permanent fixture in my mind, more so even than the two universes mentioned above. When my mind wanders, it wanders the streets of Ankh-Morpork, the Ramtop mountains and the slopes of Cori Celesti, rather than through time and space or the streets of Victorian London as it so often has. I justify this mentally in someways by recognising the Disc is a world and mirror of worlds - and so both my other fandoms will have their parallels on the Disc somewhere. Also a fan of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, The Farseer Trilogy, The Chronicles of Ancient Darkness and His Dark Materials - but none have touched my heart and taken over my mind to the extent of the Whoniverse, Holmsiverse or Discworld.

Currently studying Herbal Medicine BSc (Hons). Have a long standing interest in 'alternative' (but lets face it - truly traditional) medicine and 'energy' work. Consequently I find the activities of the Witches fascinating and often all to close to the truth.

Previous studies have included History (focusing on the medieval period), Archaeology, Psychology and Astronomy.

Hobbies (other than dreaming and reading) include Medieval Re-enactment (which includes Archery, Quarterstaff and one day Sword fighting, Fingerloop braiding), Lord of the Rings Online and Music (the violin - but not at all good at it due to muscle pains it causes - , plucked psaltery and tabor pipe and drum).

Currently writing up the adventures on the Disc that I dream about. Got about 4 main stories on the go, 3ish on the edge of my mind and 2 short story all in the same (new) thread. With just their bare bones (the central story lines that are even then yet to be fleshed out) the first and second ones word counts are over 14,000 words already! Now if only I could harness that writing magic and use it to get so real work done for my degree. Working hard not to make them Mary-Sueish, but it's hard when you place a sort of mirror of yourself on another world and see it through their eyes and feel it with their heart. At present I'm writing to record them and get them to move beyond simply my mind. Perhaps one day, I may improve and publish them online if I ever feel they may have some worth to others and can get over my lack of confidence.

Also working on a timeline both in general and specifically for Vetinari - see talk page (it's a shame there isn't a page attached to the character pages enabling a suggested timeline for the character to be displayed and edited - ''hint hint'')

I'm also learning to draw - though I'm not very good - and will hopefully one day be able to contribute fan art and illustrate the stories I dream up.

== Happy Yule 2013 ==
I do feel sorry for my family. They've got me A Blink of the Screen and Dodger which I'm absolutely delighted with and are putting up with me wittering on about the Disc - which they don't always 'get'. And a friend has got me Raising Steam (which my parents had said not to get on the basis it would distract me from my studies) and The Complete Ankh-Morpork - which I am absolutely engrossed in. Consequently my mind is back on the Disc, rather than in much needed revision.

== A thought on the Year of the Reciprocating Llama ==

Recently my mind has been on stamps (of the Discworld variety, naturally) thanks to the Discworld Emporium bringing out some special limited edition ones to celebrate 10 years since they started making them and 10 years since Going Postal. On a side note I'm rather delighted to have found myself the owner of a smiling penny patrician as well as a pure black Vetinari Four pence, even if I didn't get one of the Blue triangles, an autographed card, autographed first day cover or the solid gold penny patrician - how a couple of sports can make up for the realization I missed all that I haven't a clue, but it does.

Anyway...

Something occurred to me, when studying the sheet of Vetinari Four Penny's I bought that along the bottom of it is the line: "Honouring Our Esteemed Tyrant - Lord Havelock Vetinari - Year of the Reciprocating Llama".

For some reason it was playing on my mind over the last couple of days.

Then a particle of inspiration, or perhaps understanding, hit me.

The [[Year of the Reciprocating Llama]] is 2014.

Vetinari is still the Patrician as of that date! (Talk about survivability - I wonder if he's set a record for the longest lasting Patrician yet).

We may not have the stories up to the present day yet, and the characters may be getting on a bit in years (By my calculations Havelock would be 74/75, Sam 73/74, Moist 50/51, Ridcully 98/99, Granny Weatherwax 88/89, Susan 44/45, Carrot 45/46 and Young Sam would be 24/25) even if they're not really showing it (if the Penny Patricians and Penny Moists are anything to go by - time seems to have gone a bit wibbly-wobbly) but there seems some continuity, some stretching of the Time Line beyond the books to the present day! Unless of course there is some strange parallel-shift that means 2014 (and the year of the reciprocating llama) on Roundworld is equivalent to the year 2000/1 (10 years after Going Postal took place) on Discworld. That still adds a few years on top of our already established timeline (with Vetinari in his 60s, Moist in his mid-30s etc).

Mind aching a little at playing around with numbers and dates, but feeling a little happy hope that the former conclusion is accurate.

Oh, and another thought! Unseen Academicals takes place in the Year of the Pensive Hare - according to the Discworld Stamps website that correlates to 2009. That date seems a little far ahead, and leaves quite a long gap after main confirmed event dates (e.g. Thud etc in 1990/1 and Snuff in 1995/6?) and mix up the order a bit, but applying the same logic that the names applied on roundworld are a good few years behind and using the assumption 2000/1 = 10 yrs after Going Postal, that could place it around 1995/6 - the same year as Snuff?

-------------

== Fanfiction ==

I've finally started publishing some fanfiction!

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2545592 Divination After Dark] - 2014.10.31 - Mistress Weatherwax during one dark and stormy Soul's Cake night recalls a scene from her youth.

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2719736/chapters/6103628 Personent Hodie] - 2014.12.05 - a Filk based on the Medieval song of the same name - also in image format on [http://gallifreyan-witch.deviantart.com/art/Personent-Hodie-narrow-498530613 Deviant Art]

-----------

== 12th March 2015 ==

As a rule, I wouldn't publish my fanart here - at most I'd provide links - as I know this is a wiki page and I don't want to swamp it with what belongs on a personal blog or website. But then, some rules are meant to be broken, or at least bent, and this is hardly normal circumstances.
My own little tribute, drawn the night of the 12th after hearing thed news, though only published on the 16th when I finally got home to an Internet connection.
[[File:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg|thumbnail]]

== This Election... ==

[https://www.facebook.com/votevetinari Vote Vetinari]

Talk:Cloaca Maxima

2015-04-30T01:20:09Z

GallifreyanWitch: An alternate route, comparison to the Roman one and information from Discworld Noir

== The Path of the Cloaca Maxima ==

The main page says:
:As Quarry Lane is in the rimwards-by-widdershins part of the city (to those thinking in Roundworld terms, the south-east), and they eventually :resurface, after following the length of the Cloaca, in the University Library, at the other end of the City(turn-by-hubwise, or a long way north-west), then two things may be deduced.
:: That the Cloaca runs the full diameter of the city, from bottom-right to top-left;
:: That it is at such a depth that it runs underneath the River, as a direct line taken between Quarry Lane and the University crosses the River twice at the Isle of Gods. This would explain why it is only accessible in high summer or at time of drought: based on what we know on Roundworld about ancient drainage systems, this would have been deliberate, so that the River could be harnessed to flushing the Great Drain through. It is assumed that the Cloaca carries on past Quarry Lane and the city limits, to a point where it flushes directly into the Circle Sea. The text of Men at Arms confirms this:-
: A very large tunnel, almost blocked with debris and silt, led off in what Cuddy thought was the direction of the estuary (p227, Corgi PB)
:The assumption is also that lesser tributary sewers originating in other areas of the city periodically feed into the Cloaca, thus in theory at least, providing the main arteries of a sewerage network capable of serving the whole city's needs. Again, the text of Men at Arms confirms that the Cloaca is so arranged: Cuddy and Detritus initially land in such a tributary sewer, and follow it downwards into the main Cloaca. The body of someone that looked for all the world like Beano the clown is discovered concealed in one of many such lesser sewers, which all feed into the main drain.

I couldn't help but start mentally questioning this when I read it, partly because the way I see t, it doesn't have to run the full diameter of the city. Perhaps I'm reading the page wrong, but both Quarry Lane and the UU Library are in Morpork, thus it doesn't technically have to pass under the river Ankh. Also, while it's true the University is more turnwise than Quarry Lane, the image presented by "bottom-right to top-left" seems to exaggerate this view more than may be the case.

For some reason I linked through Cloacina to Wikipedia, and from there to the page about the Roman Cloaca Maxima. I don't remember why, but I ended up looking at the image they have on that page - a map showing the course of the Roman Cloaca Maxima - and thinking "That could fit into Ankh-Morpork". So I downloaded it, loaded up photoshop and overlayed it onto the "Streets of Ankh-Morpork Map". It's not a perfect fit, but I still think it's pretty close:

[[File:The Roman Cloaca Maxima superimposed onto Morpork.png|frameless]]

Given Ankh-Morpork's not Rome we might make some mental adjustments, deepening the curves near UU and around the Ankh. It also doesn't reach Quarry Lane, but comes close by reaching Five Ways. What I found a funny coincidence was that it passes beneath both the Alchemist's Guild and Plumber's Guild buildings - it seems very apt for the Plumber's to be above it given their occupation, and I wonder if the Alchemist's had ever come across it (either as a blast shelter or to "safely dispose" of failed experiments). Were the path something like this, it might also be said that it had been designed to be "flushed" through by siphoning water from the River Ankh. In theory, it might also be possible to stratigraphically date the building of the sewer and/or old city walls, as if it took this course it looks like it might pass through or beneath the historic wall lines along Goosegate and Treacle Mine Road - perhaps the idea being the sewage was taken outside the city limits - which would make sense with regards to the position of Quarry Lane (lately I've been trying to sketch out a possible layout of historic Ankh-Morpork so this really caught my eye). If historic Morporkians had anything of the ingenuity and understanding of Roundworld Romans, I expect they were quite aware of the importance of draining marshes and proper sewage systems to take things some distance from them to prevent contamination. It also looks as if it starts within the bounds of the old city walls.

I would, however, agree some part of it could go beneath the River Ankh.

The sewers (unnamed, so possibly in general, though given how the sewers of Ankh-Morpork seem unknown to most this could still be the Cloaca Maxima) are featured in Discworld Noir (I haven't played it, but I'm sad enough to have watched the walkthrough. Multiple times.). on the "map view" in the game, it looks like the cursor is hovering around Holofernes Street, and Lewton describes them thus:
:"A shallow sewer, running from the Brass Bridge and then around the Rimward edge of the Patrician's Palace."
Nobby, probably following Men At Arms, admits he's heard of the sewers under Ankh-Morpork, saying they're underwater except during drought. Malaclypse claims "albino alligators" (and according to a palace guard, rats and deadly vegetation) live in the sewers and that the sewers themselves are below the water table. Plans for an "intricate sewer system" were found in the Von Uberwald library (what they're doing there one can only imagine - unless it has something to do with Carlotta...), which Lewton thinks must be thousands of years old and under the water line if there wasn't a drought on. Throughout the game it's raining, and Lewton notes that "given the rains that we'd had recently, I could only find one section of sewer that might be above the water. There was a shallow sewer running from the Maudlin Bridge around the Rimwards side of the Royal Winter Palace of the Kings of Ankh, now the home of the Patrician. I guess the designers weren't allowed to put sewers under the Palace grounds, which might have been why the Royal Summer Palace of the Kings of Ankh was a long way from Ankh-Morpork. That and the stench of the river Ankh anyway". [Again, this little fact about it not going through the palace might help dating via stratigraphy: there was something significant there that made them not want to build through that spot. Presumably the Palace was there, but it's gone through some changes since it was built given the -by Roundworld standards- post 16th cent architecture. Working out the historic layout of Ankh-Morpork is no easy task, but I wouldn't have said the Palace was there during AM's main middle ages, so it seems the sewers were built after that time too - which makes sense with the dates of Cirone IV being post 1500 and the time of kings ending with the late 17th cent.
This seems a bit confusing given the conversation between Detritus and Cuddy in Men at Arms:
::' "Cirone IV me fabricat",' he read aloud. 'He was one of the early kings, wasn't he? Hey . . . do you know what that means?'
::'No-one's been down here since yesterday,' said Detritus.
::'No! This place . . . this place is more than two thousand years old.'

Early? 2000 Years Old? That's about the same age as UU, isn't it? But Cirone II (1511/2)surely came before Cirone IV, and I don't think the the Palace was there 2000 years ago... Part of me wonders if there was just some very hard rock there they didn't want to mine through, and whether the avoidance of the palace is pure coincidence. Head aching. Perhaps I'm tying myself up in knots, but I'm sure I'm onto something. Moving on...]
:"The ancient civic plans from the Library led me straight to the sewers entrance, not far from the Maudlin Bridge. A relatively small tunnel was concealed beneath a pile of debris that must have accumulated over the centuries. It looked as if most of the tunnels here were actually still above the water line: the sludge to be more honest about it. "

(Just a little side note: The sewer water looks green in the images and Lewton - a werewolf by this point -says he isn't certain it really was "water". Perhaps that backs up my thought on the Alchemists "waste disposal". Also, given nature of how initial exploration of the tunnels often leads Lewton in circles, a little bit of me has started wondering if they're close to the University and influenced by it's unusual moving structure.) At one point Lewton looks up one of the pipes through a grill and can see the Temple of Small Gods above. (Now there's a thought: what if the University's unseen structure is able to vary with relation to other structures, not just within it's own walls? I.e. you look out of one window and you're right next to the university, but look out another and you're next to, say, the Disk, or Treacle Mine Road, or Scoone Avenue... or Empirical Crescent maybe... I'm quickly coming to the conclusion the University must be a TARDIS.)

I also have vague recollections of the sewers being featured in ... I think it was the first Discworld Game, and I think Rincewind used them to get to the Pork Futures Wearhouse... though perhaps I'm mistaken. I'll have to watch that walkthrough again soon to check.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 01:20, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

File:The Roman Cloaca Maxima superimposed onto Morpork.png

2015-04-29T22:48:45Z

GallifreyanWitch: A superimposed (Red) line of the Roman Cloaca Maxima on to "The Streets of Ankh-Morpork Map". While not a perfect fit to that recorded in the books (with key points being under the Unseen University Library and Quarry Lane) and sites on the map, it doe...

A superimposed (Red) line of the Roman Cloaca Maxima on to "The Streets of Ankh-Morpork Map". While not a perfect fit to that recorded in the books (with key points being under the Unseen University Library and Quarry Lane) and sites on the map, it does seem to pass quite close to those points. Also, interestingly, this path goes beneath both the Guilds of Alchemists and Plumbers.

Talk:Stoker Blake

2015-03-31T11:04:05Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Re: The Shovel */

== Re: The Shovel ==

While browsing some medieval stuff I came across [http://www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/murder.jpg this image] and couldn't help but think of this page. It seems the shovel/spade was recorded as a killing weapon even back then. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
:TP wrote about the terrifying capabilities of many common farm implements and artisans' tools as weapons of war. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:45, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
::And deadly they are too. As a medieval re-enactor we've made some of them: a replica of a medieval sickle, a flail, a pitchfork, and on the list to make is a scythe (medieval style had straighter handles - already have a modern one and I'm very tempted to use it with fancy dress one day). Got me thinking now about adding a spade to the to-make list. we also have a rake, though think you'd be hard pressed to use it as a weapon as it's so toothless. Best of all, though, in my opinion is the quarterstaff: known in it's time as the King of Weapons, a good quarterstaff fighter could take on at least three fighters armed with sword and dagger. Not bad for a simple, long stick. I found one site that suggested it had evolved, over time, into the policemans baton, and baton-twirling skills. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 11:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Stoker Blake

2015-03-30T20:18:15Z

GallifreyanWitch: Created page with " == Re: The Shovel == While browsing some medieval stuff I came across [http://www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/murder.jpg this image] and couldn't help but th..."

Havelock Vetinari

2015-03-30T19:53:38Z

GallifreyanWitch: Added bit about his qualifications, stoker blake and charlie

{{Character Data
|title= Vetinari
|photo= awakening.jpg|Havelock Vetinari as drawn by [http://www.nocturnalsoldier.org/Tealin/xhp/disc/index.html Tealin]
|name= Havelock Vetinari
|age= about 50
|race= [[Humans|Human]] (as far as anyone can tell)
|occupation= [[Patrician]], ex-[[Assassins' Guild|Assassin]]
|appearance= Tall, fragile, in control. Has a goatee. His eyes are a penetrating ice-blue in colour. Walks with a cane after the events of {{MAA}}
|residence= [[Patrician's Palace]], [[Ankh-Morpork]]
|death=
|parents= Father dead, didn't take things seriously enough.
|relatives= Aunt [[Lady Roberta Meserole]]
|children=
|marital status= never married, linked to [[Margolotta|Lady Margolotta]].
|books= {{S}} {{G!G!}} {{MP}} {{MAA}} {{IT}} {{FOC}} {{T5E}} {{TT}} {{GP}} {{T!}} {{MM}} {{UA}}, |
|cameos= {{TCOM}} {{SM}} {{TLH}} {{NW}} {{M}} (mentioned) {{WS}} (mentioned) ''[[Discworld Noir]]'' (his voice is heard)
}}
[[Image:Vet02.png|left|150px]]
Family Motto: ''SI NON CONFECTVS, NON REFICIAT.''

''If it ain't broke, don't fix it''

'''Havelock Vetinari''' is the current [[Patrician]] of [[Ankh-Morpork]]. He has been the supreme ruler for some years and is the successor of [[Mad Lord Snapcase]]. The Assassins' Guild have an AM$ 1,000,000 fee for his inhumation, though rumour says that they are not accepting contracts on him at present. As a former [[Assassins' Guild|Assassin]] himself, he is probably just too difficult to kill. However, his greatest defence against would-be plotters is that he carefully sees to it that a reality with him as Patrician is slightly better than one without him.

It was his discovery that people only really want stability and that tomorrow should pretty much resemble today, and this has been his greatest contribution to Ankh-Morpork. Impressively, he manages to keep this up even while he drags Ankh-Morpork, sometimes kicking and screaming, into the future. It is said that Vetinari can accomplish more with irony than most others can with steel. He can also accomplish more with one raised eyebrow than most people can with two of them and a lifetime of practice.

He seems to have no vices whatsoever, since some guild or other would otherwise undoubtedly have made use of them by now. Admittedly, Vetinari did ban street theatre and tends to hang mime artists upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign reading "Learn The Words," but this is generally taken by the population as simply an amusing character trait. Anyway, in Ankh-Morpork people think that strolling players are no better than criminals, and mimes are just plain freaky.

It has also recently emerged that Vetinari also has firmly-held Views about [[Daniellarina Pouter|modern art]] which are not far removed from those he holds concerning mime artists. While a fan of music in general, Lord Vetinari believes that actual live performance of [[Opera]] proves less enjoyable than simply reading the notes on the page.

Lord Vetinari enjoys a variety of games and puzzles (both metaphoric and literal); he faithfully completes the daily crossword in the ''[[Ankh-Morpork Times]]'' and is a master at [[Stealth Chess]]. He is also an expert [[Thud]] player, adept at either the Trolls or Dwarfs side of the board. For years, he has carried on a long-distance game with [[Lady Margolotta]] of Überwald, communicating moves via clacks. While initially opposed to the street game [[foot-the-ball]], the Patrician recently endorsed the version of the game played at Unseen University.

Several of his abilities (an absolutely photographic memory, the ability to solve puzzles almost instantly and an apparent inability to get drunk) suggest he may not be entirely human.

Though he apparently lacks any magical or technological understanding whatsoever, matters of that nature have never presented much of an obstacle to Vetinari, mostly because from his perspective such things ultimately manifest, both in initial cause and final effect, in the behaviour of people, which he understands exceedingly well.

Following the events of [[The Truth]], he employs [[Charlie (The Truth)|Charlie]] as his double, standing in for him on occasion. One such occasion was during [[Book:Raising Steam|Raising Steam]], while Vetinari adopted the guise of [[Stoker Blake]].

In the Sky One adaptation of The Colour of Magic he is played by Jeremy Irons. In the Sky One adaptation of Going Postal he is played by Charles Dance.

== Politics ==
Lord Vetinari has a vast spy network, and he himself is the head of intelligence, the only man who knows all of the information so far collected. We learn in {{G!G!}} that some of his spies are particularly intelligent [[Rats|rats]] who evolved under the magic-contaminated grounds of [[Unseen University]]. Also, in {{COM}}, it is suggested that he uses rats as messengers as well. It also appears that he as infiltrated the intelligence networks of the rival guilds and organisations in the city, taking choice morsels of intelligence. In {{S}} he was reading a report of what the chief thief said to his deputy in their secret meeting room. The patrician is adept at using the [[Clacks]] system to deliver misinformation. He has had [[Leonard of Quirm]] create highly difficult codes that can be broken by his most intelligent rivals, thus ensuring they know what he is thinking. Or rather they know what he wants them to believe he is thinking...

Vetinari is very good at listening, and has a way of making people uncomfortable so that they talk more and more in trying to dilute the atmosphere. Lord Vetinari is also very manipulative. His more obvious moves include the innovation of allowing crime syndicates to become legalized guilds much as guilds of people of other trades. This means that a certain amount of crime is legal, and it is the responsibility of the [[Thieves' Guild]] to punish unlicensed stealing, [[Assassins' Guild]] to punish uncontracted killing, etc., arguably doing a better job than the Guard, (when the Thieves' Guild went on strike, crime actually increased.) In politics Lord Vetinari strongly believes in the "''one man – one vote''," system, where he-alone is the man, and he alone has the vote. It seems to follow that the Patrician does not belong to any political party.

His less obvious moves include minimizing the Night Watch division of the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]]; populating it with riffraff and ethnic minorities and demoralizing its leader [[Samuel Vimes]] (then Captain), with the intent of winding him up so that he might unwind all at once, overstep his diminutive jurisdiction, and sort things out ({{MAA}}). Lord Vetinari hires many [[clerks]], some trained Assassins, some young diplomats who are not from the noble families, and some spies assigned to diplomatic offices.

The [[Patrician's Palace]] is in charge of the registration of the [[Guilds of Ankh-Morpork|Guilds]], diplomacy with foreign countries, the wages of City employees such as the Watchmen, and so on. Lord Vetinari also likes to give important jobs to unwilling young men whom he considers capable; his victims so far include [[William de Worde]] of the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]], and [[Moist von Lipwig]] of the [[Post Office]] and the [[Ankh-Morpork_Mint|Royal Mint]].

Unlike previous Patricians, Vetinari truly works to make the city work, not for personal gain or vanity. He has carried out many devious schemes for the good of the city, and eliminates persons or situations that threaten the city. In a very complex manoeuvre, he set up the Ankh-Morpork [[Post Office]] against the [[clacks]] company [[Grand Trunk]] to get the company out of the hands of embezzlers destroying the company for profit. After the clacks system gets back on its feet, Lord Vetinari can again let foreign diplomats send a clacks home about ''what he wants them to think''; characteristically he specifies that his codes be 'fiendishly difficult' but not unbreakable as he wants people to read them so that he knows what they think he thinks they're thinking.

Lord Vetinari's head clerk, for several years now, is a slight, quiet young man named [[Drumknott]]. Both Drumknott and the other members of the Palace staff have been instructed to accept bribes proffered for access to the Patrician.

His success has led many to attempt to emulate him – or, in some [[Cosmo Lavish|extreme cases]], to become him. There is apparently an entire wing of Ankh-Morpork's mental hospital devoted to people convinced that they are Vetinari. They often engage in eyebrow-raising competitions.

After the Unseen University banquet in [[Unseen Academicals]] he confesses to Drumknott that he is 'drunk as a skunk'; however, the only apparent manifestation of this is that he becomes extremely talkative, stubs his toe on a step in the palace, and takes an extra fifty seconds to solve the Times crossword.

==Early Years==
Havelock was born into the extremely wealthy and influential Vetinari family, and it seems that he was raised during the early part of his life by his aunt, [[Lady Roberta Meserole]].

In his youth, he attended the [[Assassins' Guild]], where he studied languages (the guild being the most proper place for wealthy families to send their children for education regardless of their specific vocation). It seems that Vetinari was particularly interested in classical arts of camouflage, defying the guild's policy of all-black dress in favour of dark grey and dark green. He was failed in his stealth course on account of his teacher never seeing him in classes. This, replied Vetinari in his own defense, was to his mind the ''entire point'' of the subject.

Vetinari gained a number of qualifications at the guild, listed in the {{AGD}} as: Doctor of Medicine & Applied Pathology, Doctor of Music, Doctor of God Studies, Master Assassin, Master of Political Expediency, Master of Alchemical Science, Member of the Institute of Dance & Deportment, Bachelor of the Science of Inhumation & Diploma in Physical Education. He has also gone on to become the guilds Provost.

He studied at the guild at the same time as the current Master of Assassins, [[Lord Downey]], who gave him the less-than-affectionate nickname 'Dog-botherer'. Given the positions they respectively hold thirty years later, it is possible that Downey now regrets the little misunderstandings of their youth, especially the nickname. It is obvious that Downey's attitude to Vetinari is now one of obsequious but wary respect. He did however graduate with full honors in [[1968 UC|1968]].

At some point during his early life he journeyed to [[Überwald]], as part of the [[Grand Sneer]] (where young members of high-born and wealthy families journey to backwards countries to see how inferior they are.) During this period Vetinari seems to have had some sort of a relationship with an Überwaldean noblewoman, the [[vampires|vampire]] [[Lady Margolotta]]. Contrary to the way things might have been expected to go, given their respective ages, it is implied that he taught her at least a good deal of what she knows about manipulation.

It is also very possible that when the Patricianship changed hands, and Snapcase demanded files be created on ''"up and coming young men in the Guild of Assassins"'', that would have been a ''very'' good time for Vetinari to embark on the leisurely coming-of-age Grand Sneer; customary to young men of his social class. If the new Patrician was seeking to establish a shortlist of candidates to ascertain the identity of the Assassin who inhumed his predecessor, it is highly likely that Vetinari would have been offered the same sort of grateful advancement as was offered to John Keel - making this an ideal time to leave the city for a few years and exploit his aunt's Disc-wide social and business connections.

How Vetinari himself ascended to the Patricianship is a story yet untold. It is known that his advice was heeded by Snapcase's administration on at least one occasion: when a 20p bounty on rat tails was introduced to combat a serious rodent infestation, but threatened to drain the treasury dry without curtailing the rats' numbers. Vetinari's suggestion to "tax the rat farms" provided an early demonstration of his shrewd political insight.

Another clue to the secret past of the Patrician is that once a year he, like several others, wears a sprig of lilac in remembrance of an important [[Glorious Revolution|event]] in recent history. This is because the Patrician fought in the event on the side of the Watchmen, though at a point of time when old Vimes was not present and the young one was unconscious. As well, Vetinari himself inhumed Lord Winder, by the method of sheer terror. In the latter case, he showed a remarkable degree of foresight and high ambition: Asked by the then-Patrician Winder: "Who are yer?", he answers: "Think of me as ... your future".

It has been said that the only living thing Lord Vetinari truly cared for was his dog, an extremely elderly wire-haired terrier named [[Wuffles]]. After Wuffles' death, he religiously visits the grave weekly to leave a favourite dog biscuit. The end of {{MM}} seems to indicate that he has adopted the chairman of the Royal Bank, [[Mr. Fusspot]], to fill the void left by Wuffles.

In the difficult time of the [[Sourcerer]], which is very carefully not remembered by people who were visiting their ailing aunt in [[Quirm]] at the time, Vetinari was transformed into a yellow-green lizard. Both lizard and Wuffles were taken in for safekeeping by the [[Librarian]], until things could return to normal again. During this time, the lizard was kept in a glass jar. (This left him with an uncomfortable feeling near glass for some time) Fortunately for the senior wizards, Vetinari suffered an uncharacteristic and extremely annoying memory loss on his return to human form, and was left with a distressingly uncontrollable (but short-lived) tendency to try to catch flies with his tongue...

==Character Annotations==
The name "'''Vetinari'''" is a pun on the infamous [[Wikipedia:Medici|De' Medici]] family of Florence who ruled the city and surroundings during the Renaissance.

There is a famous Middle English chivalric romance called "Havelock the Dane."

There are several streets on [[Roundworld]] named 'Havelock' including a Havelock Place in Melbourne. It should be noted that many of these appear to be named after the British General Henry Havelock, who fought in the Indian Mutiny, and after whom the piece of cloth that hangs from the back of a kepi to keep the sun off the neck was named. (In the very best traditions of [[Blouse|military officers having items of clothing named after them]], and despite the fact the Japanese, who at the time didn't count, had independently invented such a useful item six hundred or so years beforehand).

Another famous Havelock was Victorian sexologist [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havelock_Ellis Havelock Ellis], whose career took a very decidedly non-Victorian route, when he compiled what for many years were held to be the first definitive scholarly works on deviant sexuality. As the Victorians seemed to believe virtually every form of sexual expression was deviant, Ellis had no shortage of raw material to include, and gleefully set about shocking his society with a catalogue of work that comprehensively covered just about everything imaginable and quite a few things that are not, perhaps, so easily encompassed by the normal mind. Oddly enough the writings are not at all sexually stimulating or prurient: this Havelock dissects his subject with the same sort of matter-of-fact forensic care and attention to detail that Havelock Vetinari might put to running a city. The underlying reasoning is one that Havelock Vetinari might recognise and nod approval to- there is a suspicion that Ellis is trying to wake people up and bring them to a new level of understanding about how things can be better organised and understood, even if this means having to think the hitherto unthinkable, and contemplate things previously thought beyond the civilised pale.

The name "Havelock" is often said to be of Old Norse/Norwegian origin meaning "sea war"/"sea-contest"/"sea sport" and the likes. According to [http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Havelock this site], however, it's said to be of Germanic origin, primarily used in the Welsh language, meaning "elf warrior" or "olive tree".

Interestingly, this quote echoes Vetinari's philosophy and his stated reason why he has remained Patrician for so long:

''In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life...''

Controversy dogs its provenance. It is sometimes attributed to historian Edmund Gibbon, writing on the final collapse of the Greek city states, first to Persia, then to Macedonia and Rome. But research suggests this is more recent: Margaret Thatcher speaking on the evils of socialism in 1994. A version may have originated with Gibbon; Thatcher's paraphrase is in the context of a diatribe on the perceived evils of state intervention and socialist patriarchy. And Gibbon certainly never said that!

==Also See==
* [[wikipedia:Havelock Vetinari|Havelock Vetinari's Entry]] on [[wikipedia:Wikipedia|Wikipedia]]

[[Category:Discworld characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[Category:Serial characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[Category:Supporting characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[Category:Human characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[de:Havelock Vetinari]]

Havelock Vetinari

2015-03-30T19:22:38Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Character Annotations */

{{Character Data
|title= Vetinari
|photo= awakening.jpg|Havelock Vetinari as drawn by [http://www.nocturnalsoldier.org/Tealin/xhp/disc/index.html Tealin]
|name= Havelock Vetinari
|age= about 50
|race= [[Humans|Human]] (as far as anyone can tell)
|occupation= [[Patrician]], ex-[[Assassins' Guild|Assassin]]
|appearance= Tall, fragile, in control. Has a goatee. His eyes are a penetrating ice-blue in colour. Walks with a cane after the events of {{MAA}}
|residence= [[Patrician's Palace]], [[Ankh-Morpork]]
|death=
|parents= Father dead, didn't take things seriously enough.
|relatives= Aunt [[Lady Roberta Meserole]]
|children=
|marital status= never married, linked to [[Margolotta|Lady Margolotta]].
|books= {{S}} {{G!G!}} {{MP}} {{MAA}} {{IT}} {{FOC}} {{T5E}} {{TT}} {{GP}} {{T!}} {{MM}} {{UA}}, |
|cameos= {{TCOM}} {{SM}} {{TLH}} {{NW}} {{M}} (mentioned) {{WS}} (mentioned) ''[[Discworld Noir]]'' (his voice is heard)
}}
[[Image:Vet02.png|left|150px]]
Family Motto: ''SI NON CONFECTVS, NON REFICIAT.''

''If it ain't broke, don't fix it''

'''Havelock Vetinari''' is the current [[Patrician]] of [[Ankh-Morpork]]. He has been the supreme ruler for some years and is the successor of [[Mad Lord Snapcase]]. The Assassins' Guild have an AM$ 1,000,000 fee for his inhumation, though rumour says that they are not accepting contracts on him at present. As a former [[Assassins' Guild|Assassin]] himself, he is probably just too difficult to kill. However, his greatest defence against would-be plotters is that he carefully sees to it that a reality with him as Patrician is slightly better than one without him.

It was his discovery that people only really want stability and that tomorrow should pretty much resemble today, and this has been his greatest contribution to Ankh-Morpork. Impressively, he manages to keep this up even while he drags Ankh-Morpork, sometimes kicking and screaming, into the future. It is said that Vetinari can accomplish more with irony than most others can with steel. He can also accomplish more with one raised eyebrow than most people can with two of them and a lifetime of practice.

He seems to have no vices whatsoever, since some guild or other would otherwise undoubtedly have made use of them by now. Admittedly, Vetinari did ban street theatre and tends to hang mime artists upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign reading "Learn The Words," but this is generally taken by the population as simply an amusing character trait. Anyway, in Ankh-Morpork people think that strolling players are no better than criminals, and mimes are just plain freaky.

It has also recently emerged that Vetinari also has firmly-held Views about [[Daniellarina Pouter|modern art]] which are not far removed from those he holds concerning mime artists. While a fan of music in general, Lord Vetinari believes that actual live performance of [[Opera]] proves less enjoyable than simply reading the notes on the page.

Lord Vetinari enjoys a variety of games and puzzles (both metaphoric and literal); he faithfully completes the daily crossword in the ''[[Ankh-Morpork Times]]'' and is a master at [[Stealth Chess]]. He is also an expert [[Thud]] player, adept at either the Trolls or Dwarfs side of the board. For years, he has carried on a long-distance game with [[Lady Margolotta]] of Überwald, communicating moves via clacks. While initially opposed to the street game [[foot-the-ball]], the Patrician recently endorsed the version of the game played at Unseen University.

Several of his abilities (an absolutely photographic memory, the ability to solve puzzles almost instantly and an apparent inability to get drunk) suggest he may not be entirely human.

Though he apparently lacks any magical or technological understanding whatsoever, matters of that nature have never presented much of an obstacle to Vetinari, mostly because from his perspective such things ultimately manifest, both in initial cause and final effect, in the behaviour of people, which he understands exceedingly well.

In the Sky One adaptation of The Colour of Magic he is played by Jeremy Irons. In the Sky One adaptation of Going Postal he is played by Charles Dance.

== Politics ==
Lord Vetinari has a vast spy network, and he himself is the head of intelligence, the only man who knows all of the information so far collected. We learn in {{G!G!}} that some of his spies are particularly intelligent [[Rats|rats]] who evolved under the magic-contaminated grounds of [[Unseen University]]. Also, in {{COM}}, it is suggested that he uses rats as messengers as well. It also appears that he as infiltrated the intelligence networks of the rival guilds and organisations in the city, taking choice morsels of intelligence. In {{S}} he was reading a report of what the chief thief said to his deputy in their secret meeting room. The patrician is adept at using the [[Clacks]] system to deliver misinformation. He has had [[Leonard of Quirm]] create highly difficult codes that can be broken by his most intelligent rivals, thus ensuring they know what he is thinking. Or rather they know what he wants them to believe he is thinking...

Vetinari is very good at listening, and has a way of making people uncomfortable so that they talk more and more in trying to dilute the atmosphere. Lord Vetinari is also very manipulative. His more obvious moves include the innovation of allowing crime syndicates to become legalized guilds much as guilds of people of other trades. This means that a certain amount of crime is legal, and it is the responsibility of the [[Thieves' Guild]] to punish unlicensed stealing, [[Assassins' Guild]] to punish uncontracted killing, etc., arguably doing a better job than the Guard, (when the Thieves' Guild went on strike, crime actually increased.) In politics Lord Vetinari strongly believes in the "''one man – one vote''," system, where he-alone is the man, and he alone has the vote. It seems to follow that the Patrician does not belong to any political party.

His less obvious moves include minimizing the Night Watch division of the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]]; populating it with riffraff and ethnic minorities and demoralizing its leader [[Samuel Vimes]] (then Captain), with the intent of winding him up so that he might unwind all at once, overstep his diminutive jurisdiction, and sort things out ({{MAA}}). Lord Vetinari hires many [[clerks]], some trained Assassins, some young diplomats who are not from the noble families, and some spies assigned to diplomatic offices.

The [[Patrician's Palace]] is in charge of the registration of the [[Guilds of Ankh-Morpork|Guilds]], diplomacy with foreign countries, the wages of City employees such as the Watchmen, and so on. Lord Vetinari also likes to give important jobs to unwilling young men whom he considers capable; his victims so far include [[William de Worde]] of the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]], and [[Moist von Lipwig]] of the [[Post Office]] and the [[Ankh-Morpork_Mint|Royal Mint]].

Unlike previous Patricians, Vetinari truly works to make the city work, not for personal gain or vanity. He has carried out many devious schemes for the good of the city, and eliminates persons or situations that threaten the city. In a very complex manoeuvre, he set up the Ankh-Morpork [[Post Office]] against the [[clacks]] company [[Grand Trunk]] to get the company out of the hands of embezzlers destroying the company for profit. After the clacks system gets back on its feet, Lord Vetinari can again let foreign diplomats send a clacks home about ''what he wants them to think''; characteristically he specifies that his codes be 'fiendishly difficult' but not unbreakable as he wants people to read them so that he knows what they think he thinks they're thinking.

Lord Vetinari's head clerk, for several years now, is a slight, quiet young man named [[Drumknott]]. Both Drumknott and the other members of the Palace staff have been instructed to accept bribes proffered for access to the Patrician.

His success has led many to attempt to emulate him – or, in some [[Cosmo Lavish|extreme cases]], to become him. There is apparently an entire wing of Ankh-Morpork's mental hospital devoted to people convinced that they are Vetinari. They often engage in eyebrow-raising competitions.

After the Unseen University banquet in [[Unseen Academicals]] he confesses to Drumknott that he is 'drunk as a skunk'; however, the only apparent manifestation of this is that he becomes extremely talkative, stubs his toe on a step in the palace, and takes an extra fifty seconds to solve the Times crossword.

==Early Years==
Havelock was born into the extremely wealthy and influential Vetinari family, and it seems that he was raised during the early part of his life by his aunt, [[Lady Roberta Meserole]].

In his youth, he attended the [[Assassins' Guild]], where he studied languages (the guild being the most proper place for wealthy families to send their children for education regardless of their specific vocation). It seems that Vetinari was particularly interested in classical arts of camouflage, defying the guild's policy of all-black dress in favour of dark grey and dark green. He was failed in his stealth course on account of his teacher never seeing him in classes. This, replied Vetinari in his own defense, was to his mind the ''entire point'' of the subject.

He studied at the guild at the same time as the current Master of Assassins, [[Lord Downey]], who gave him the less-than-affectionate nickname 'Dog-botherer'. Given the positions they respectively hold thirty years later, it is possible that Downey now regrets the little misunderstandings of their youth, especially the nickname. It is obvious that Downey's attitude to Vetinari is now one of obsequious but wary respect. He did however graduate with full honors in [[1968 UC|1968]].

At some point during his early life he journeyed to [[Überwald]], as part of the [[Grand Sneer]] (where young members of high-born and wealthy families journey to backwards countries to see how inferior they are.) During this period Vetinari seems to have had some sort of a relationship with an Überwaldean noblewoman, the [[vampires|vampire]] [[Lady Margolotta]]. Contrary to the way things might have been expected to go, given their respective ages, it is implied that he taught her at least a good deal of what she knows about manipulation.

It is also very possible that when the Patricianship changed hands, and Snapcase demanded files be created on ''"up and coming young men in the Guild of Assassins"'', that would have been a ''very'' good time for Vetinari to embark on the leisurely coming-of-age Grand Sneer; customary to young men of his social class. If the new Patrician was seeking to establish a shortlist of candidates to ascertain the identity of the Assassin who inhumed his predecessor, it is highly likely that Vetinari would have been offered the same sort of grateful advancement as was offered to John Keel - making this an ideal time to leave the city for a few years and exploit his aunt's Disc-wide social and business connections.

How Vetinari himself ascended to the Patricianship is a story yet untold. It is known that his advice was heeded by Snapcase's administration on at least one occasion: when a 20p bounty on rat tails was introduced to combat a serious rodent infestation, but threatened to drain the treasury dry without curtailing the rats' numbers. Vetinari's suggestion to "tax the rat farms" provided an early demonstration of his shrewd political insight.

Another clue to the secret past of the Patrician is that once a year he, like several others, wears a sprig of lilac in remembrance of an important [[Glorious Revolution|event]] in recent history. This is because the Patrician fought in the event on the side of the Watchmen, though at a point of time when old Vimes was not present and the young one was unconscious. As well, Vetinari himself inhumed Lord Winder, by the method of sheer terror. In the latter case, he showed a remarkable degree of foresight and high ambition: Asked by the then-Patrician Winder: "Who are yer?", he answers: "Think of me as ... your future".

It has been said that the only living thing Lord Vetinari truly cared for was his dog, an extremely elderly wire-haired terrier named [[Wuffles]]. After Wuffles' death, he religiously visits the grave weekly to leave a favourite dog biscuit. The end of {{MM}} seems to indicate that he has adopted the chairman of the Royal Bank, [[Mr. Fusspot]], to fill the void left by Wuffles.

In the difficult time of the [[Sourcerer]], which is very carefully not remembered by people who were visiting their ailing aunt in [[Quirm]] at the time, Vetinari was transformed into a yellow-green lizard. Both lizard and Wuffles were taken in for safekeeping by the [[Librarian]], until things could return to normal again. During this time, the lizard was kept in a glass jar. (This left him with an uncomfortable feeling near glass for some time) Fortunately for the senior wizards, Vetinari suffered an uncharacteristic and extremely annoying memory loss on his return to human form, and was left with a distressingly uncontrollable (but short-lived) tendency to try to catch flies with his tongue...

==Character Annotations==
The name "'''Vetinari'''" is a pun on the infamous [[Wikipedia:Medici|De' Medici]] family of Florence who ruled the city and surroundings during the Renaissance.

There is a famous Middle English chivalric romance called "Havelock the Dane."

There are several streets on [[Roundworld]] named 'Havelock' including a Havelock Place in Melbourne. It should be noted that many of these appear to be named after the British General Henry Havelock, who fought in the Indian Mutiny, and after whom the piece of cloth that hangs from the back of a kepi to keep the sun off the neck was named. (In the very best traditions of [[Blouse|military officers having items of clothing named after them]], and despite the fact the Japanese, who at the time didn't count, had independently invented such a useful item six hundred or so years beforehand).

Another famous Havelock was Victorian sexologist [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havelock_Ellis Havelock Ellis], whose career took a very decidedly non-Victorian route, when he compiled what for many years were held to be the first definitive scholarly works on deviant sexuality. As the Victorians seemed to believe virtually every form of sexual expression was deviant, Ellis had no shortage of raw material to include, and gleefully set about shocking his society with a catalogue of work that comprehensively covered just about everything imaginable and quite a few things that are not, perhaps, so easily encompassed by the normal mind. Oddly enough the writings are not at all sexually stimulating or prurient: this Havelock dissects his subject with the same sort of matter-of-fact forensic care and attention to detail that Havelock Vetinari might put to running a city. The underlying reasoning is one that Havelock Vetinari might recognise and nod approval to- there is a suspicion that Ellis is trying to wake people up and bring them to a new level of understanding about how things can be better organised and understood, even if this means having to think the hitherto unthinkable, and contemplate things previously thought beyond the civilised pale.

The name "Havelock" is often said to be of Old Norse/Norwegian origin meaning "sea war"/"sea-contest"/"sea sport" and the likes. According to [http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Havelock this site], however, it's said to be of Germanic origin, primarily used in the Welsh language, meaning "elf warrior" or "olive tree".

Interestingly, this quote echoes Vetinari's philosophy and his stated reason why he has remained Patrician for so long:

''In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life...''

Controversy dogs its provenance. It is sometimes attributed to historian Edmund Gibbon, writing on the final collapse of the Greek city states, first to Persia, then to Macedonia and Rome. But research suggests this is more recent: Margaret Thatcher speaking on the evils of socialism in 1994. A version may have originated with Gibbon; Thatcher's paraphrase is in the context of a diatribe on the perceived evils of state intervention and socialist patriarchy. And Gibbon certainly never said that!

==Also See==
* [[wikipedia:Havelock Vetinari|Havelock Vetinari's Entry]] on [[wikipedia:Wikipedia|Wikipedia]]

[[Category:Discworld characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[Category:Serial characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[Category:Supporting characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[Category:Human characters|Vetinari, Havelock]]
[[de:Havelock Vetinari]]

Talk:Havelock Vetinari

2015-03-30T17:37:59Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Sexuality */

==Assassin's Guild target?==

Does the assassin's guild have a fee on his head? I thought he (and Sam Vimes) were the only two people the guild gave up on...--[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 23:06, 13 Sep 2005 (CEST)

:I'm pretty sure that I read in one of the books that Vetinari had a fee on his head but noone had yet dared (and succeeded) to collect it. Don't remember in which book it could have been tough. Probably one of the guards novels. It would be nice if we could verify this though. [[User:Jeltz|Jeltz]] 23:13, 13 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Men At Arms:
'Everyone knows the Assassins have set his fee at a million dollars,' said Lady Selachii.'That's how much it would cost to have him killed.' 'One can't help feeling,' said Lord Rust, 'that it would cost a lot more than that to make sure he stayed dead.'
--[[User:Death|Death]] 10:03, 14 Sep 2005 (CEST)

:I give you [[Nightwatch]], UK hardback p. 8 from the top:
'You're a bit young to be sent on this contract, aren't you?' said Vimes. 'Not a contract, sir,' said Jocasta, still paddling. 'Come now, Miss Wiggs. The price on my head is at least---' 'The Guild Council put it in abeyance, sir,' said the dogged swimmer. 'You're off the register. They're not accepting contracts on you at present.'

On the next page, when Sam contemplates this:
'Off the register, eg? The only person not on it any more, it was rumoured, was Lord Vetinari, the Patrician. The Assassins understood the political game in the city better than anyone, and if they took you off the register it was because they felt your departure would not only spoil the game but also smash the board...'

I'm writing a paper on Havelock Vetinari for my English Composition II class and I need some good reliable sources, especially Terry Pratchett interviews that may bring up his name or books he is featured in prominently. I promise faithfully to share all my information, but I need someone to point me in a good direction!

==Name==
I read somewhere about Vetinari's name being a satire in itself but I can't remember what of or where i read it - any ideas? [[User:81.77.78.217|81.77.78.217]] 21:25, 13 February 2006 (CET)

:From http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/sourcery.html: " A sideways pun (via 'veterinary') on the name of the famous de Medici family, who were the enlightened rulers of Renaissance Florence." --[[User:10.0.0.1|10.0.0.1]] 12:57, 14 February 2006 (CET)

Yes, where a vetinarian is an animal doctor and ''medicin'' is the french (and possibly other Romance languages) for 'doctor'--[[User:Hapenny|Hapenny]] 23:45, 24 January 2008 (CET)

in book 37 a drunken footballer directly calls him vetinary

One quick question: I think there was an English medieval king called "Havelock" as well, as far as i remember it seems as if he was regarded as a kind of ideal leader...just an idea though
:See {{wp|Havelok the Dane|Havelok}}. No obvious connection, though, except as successful overthrower of an evil ruler. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It was also used as a pun during the Fifth Elephant: when Vimes mentioned Vetinari to the von Uberwalds (werewolves) (putting a little extra stress on the first syllable) the response included a growl. (He got a similar response at the mention of baths - it all rather put's me in mind of Blackadder III dealing with the actors through the use of the word 'Macbeth').
I've also commented on the name 'Havelock' lower down this page (under Vetinari In Concert), sorry - it fitted in with my mention of his Holmesian like character with relation to choice of instruments. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|GallifreyanWitch]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 16:18, 21 November 2013 (GMT)

==Age quibble==

Vetinari needs to be well over 50. He's older than Sam, who has to be over 50 by now.
(Calculate from ''Night Watch''.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 10:15 EST 17 Aug 2006.

: I gathered from Nightwatch that he's slightly older than Sam (how old are Assasin's Guild students?). Sam goes back 30 years in time and sees himself as a 16 or 18yo (can't remember exactly). That would make him nearing 50 and Vetinari a few years older than that. I remember TP saying that Vimes and Vetinari are roughly the same age, too.
BTW, we probably need to replace age with year of birth so it doesn't need to change with each book, and a timeline (just mailed the LSpace people who maintain the DW Timeline whether it's okay to put in on the wiki). --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 16:48, 17 August 2006 (CEST)

Timeline discussion [[Talk:Discworld Timeline|moved here]].

In {{NW}}, Vetinari is still a pupil at the Assassins' Guild school. We know from context ({{P}}) that the AG school is set up along the lines of a British public school. In common with other British higher schools, the age-range of pupils would be eleven - eighteen. Downey and his louche chums would be the equivalent of sixth-formers: ie, seventeen-eighteen. Vetinari, from context, can be assumed to be of the same age or slightly younger? While mention is made of a "post-graduate" course in the Assassins' Guild - implying that it offers continuing learning at the equivalent of university level (the Unseen University can hardly be expected to offer degrees in assassination...) the bulk of the Guild's education appears to be focused on young people of accepted school-age, ie 11-18 years old. So you could assume the young Vetinari is, at this time, no lower than the fifth form (15-16) but most probably in the Lower Sixth (16-17)?

In The Truth, we are told he graduated in 1969. This places the events of Night Watch as being no later than 1999/1969, and suggests a birthdate of c.1951 [[User:Gothmog Dave|Gothmog Dave]] 21:54, 29 February 2008 (CET)

In the book The Fifth Elephant, Lady Margolotta (a vampire) says that Vetinari "should be quite old by now". Sam Vimes asks her if she taught Vetinari everything he knows, and she laughs and insinuates that, in fact, he had taught her in her younger days. This indicates to me the possibility that Vetinari's age is far greater than what some of you may be thinking. And although it hasn't been explicitly stated in any of Terry Pratchett's works as far as I know, it also opens up the possibility that Vetinari is a vampire, which would explain how he could look relatively young while in fact being quite old.

Assuming that Vetinari is seventeen during Night Watch, it's impossible (unless he ages in a ''very'' strange way) that he could be the Patrician during the events of The Colour of Magic or Mort. Since in Thief of Time Susan is almost certainly in her early- to mid-twenties, I'm assuming that by Night Watch (in the present) she's at least 25. This means that Night Watch takes place around 27 years after Mort, and three years after Vetinari 'killed' Winder, meaning he couldn't possibly be celebrating his 10th anniversary as Patrician, even if he had managed to become Patrician at such a young age. Does anyone else agree? [[User:Rachel95|Rachel95]]

I've created a potential Time Line for Vetinari on my talk/discussion page, based on the assumption he's 17 or 18 in Nights Watch (though I expect it could also be modified to assume he's younger/older at that time) and on the info I can find on the page related to events in specific years (I would provide the link but formatting could be problematic as I'm writing from a tablet). I must admit I think the Time Line I've come up with covers most things and fits in quite well. I've also included current affairs (other rulers, wars, development of technology) and the little info on Wuffles on the timeline to provide context.

Here are some of my assumptions/suggestions based on the Time Line I've made:

It would, if it's accurate, suggest he's around 24/25 at the time of The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic - so it would technically be possible for him to be Patrician at that time.

As of THUD! Vetinari has been patrician for at least 17 years (based on Sorcery), possibly 27 Years (if he was patrician during the colour of magic).

There is roughly a 10 year gap between Colour of Magic and Sorcery, presenting the potential he lost weight and showed his true colours as patrician during that time - see point below about overweight Vetinari (even if it took 10 years if he really lost weight during that time I'd love to know what his diet/fitness plan was to achieve such a change).

There could be a gap between 7 and 17 years between Vetinari's final year/s as a student in the guild and his being patrician - during which time the Grand Sneer and his assistance to Lord Snapcase can be assumed to have taken place.

If he is the patrician during the colour of magic it suggests he made use of the post-graduate program during his time as patrician (must admit I find it curious he has no formal qualification in languages despite the fact they'd probably be useful in his current profession).
Personally I think the reference in The Truth to graduation in 1969 refers to his latest graduation - i.e. post-graduate course. It messes the dates up quite a bit and doesn't fit in with the suggested date for Night Watch if that were his original graduation aged under 20 otherwise, and probably reduces his apparent age by about 10 years or so I think, which would not fit in with the idea of him being older than he seems or aged in his 50s during the latest books.
Potential year of birth - 1939/1940
Possible ages during sorcery - 34/35
Possible age during Guards! Guards! - 45/46
Other key books on virtually a yearly basis after that.
Possible age during The Truth - 50/51
Possible age during Goind Postal and THUD! - 51/52
Dates for following books unknown, but presumably also on a yearly basis suggesting he's arounf 54/55 as of Snuff

And, Rachel95, I wouldn't put it past Vetinari to age in an odd manner, however I'd of also thought that using Susan's age as a guide might not set things in stone - she is Death's Granddaughter afterall, so it might be that she's the one who ages in an odd way (I've included her potential date of birth based on the lspace wiki time line on the Time Line on my talk page.). I personally don't think he's a Vampire - even though he exhibits similar traits. But I do think he's not simply human. There is a presedence for a human aging oddly: Rincewind - who's life timer is described as looking as if it were created by a glassblower with hiccups - What if the same glassblower was a frequent sufferer of hiccups and made other unusual hourglasses (which just so happen to be for influential people in relation to events on the disc? (Oh dear - Now my mind is racing with potential stories.)
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:08, 1 December 2013 (GMT)

== Coat of arms ==
After the success of my [[Ankh-Morpork]] coat of arms I thought I'd try my hand at a few more. Vetinari's was the obvious choice because it's more or less blank although I added a bit of a flourish to the motto to liven it up a bit. If you go back and look at when I first added Vetinari's coat of arms you'll see it looked dreadful but I think I've found a way that works, I've made it slightly larger and floated it above the text. I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions (or criticisms) you may have.--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 00:38, 26 February 2007 (CET)

I can't read the motto.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:30, 26 February 2007 (CET)

click on it and it'll get bigger--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 03:53, 26 February 2007 (CET)

== Vetinari's Intelligence Files ==

Do the Patrician's intelligence service files contain at least a partial catalogue of books held by the Library?

--(Originally posted by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] to [[The Summoning of Dragons]] on 22:10, 19 May 2007 moved here by [[User:Fhh98|Fhh98]] 06:31, 28 February 2008 (CET))

:The Patrician's intelligence service files could hardly contain more than a partial list. The UU Library, of course, contains all the books ever written and all the books that will or may ever be written.

:--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 01:08, 28 February 2008 (CET) (Originally posted to [[Talk:The Summoning of Dragons]] moved here by [[User:Fhh98|Fhh98]] 06:31, 28 February 2008 (CET))
::It is possible that the UU library may have a list of the books that will ''never'' be written. [[Special:Contributions/173.206.76.164|173.206.76.164]] 06:39, 23 March 2011 (CET)

Just logic, really: how does a non-wizard such as Lupine Wonse stumble accross the idea, in the first place, that the UU library contains a book which offers the key to taking over the city? (And to know its location on the shelf well enough to direct a hired thief there). Without Wonse's awareness that such a book exists, there'd be no later events to relate in {{G!G!}} - the ''Summoning'' would still be gently mouldering unheeded on a shelf somewhere, with its carbonised last few pages flaking into decrepitude. Wonse could ask a Wizard, but then he's openly declared an interest in such a book - leading no doubt to an intelligence report on ''him'' ending up on the Patrician's desk. The simplest concept that answered this question - ''how did he know the book existed in the first place?'' - is to posit that, as Vetinari's secretary, Wonse had unlimited access to the intelligence files in the Palace in the course of his duties. Nobody would notice, or think to ask, what he was looking up, as it was his job to maintain those archives. And if the Files included partial catalogues of books held in the Guild libraries, including that of UU...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 16:38, 3 March 2008 (CET)

de Malachite's adventure might well fall into the category of things the Patrician didn't want to see happen again and had notes about. On the other hand Wonse was a clever sod in his own right and might have come across it anywhere. Certainly I would expect the university to give the Palace the courtesy of free access to the library, and it wouldn't seem odd for clerks to be doing research there. This is pretty much why I was astonished when you pointed out that I was wrong in assuming Wonse stole the book himself: that was so much more likely. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:57, 3 March 2008 (CET)

:Brother Fingers stole the book. [[User:Fhh98|Fhh98]] 03:46, 4 March 2008 (CET)

We know. Agprov's trying to work out how Wonse knew where to look. I say he was a clerk and finding out was what he did. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:42, 4 March 2008 (CET)

If the Library contains every book that's ever existed, its going to be hard for any non-magician to find any book. No details have been given on the Library's filing system, but it's bound to be complicated. [[Special:Contributions/92.7.160.39|92.7.160.39]] 15:27, 24 February 2011 (CET)

It is. [[Blit]]. (ref {{UA}})--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:50, 23 March 2011 (CET)

==Stealth Exam==
When Vetinari returns (camouflaged) from taking out the assassin intending to kill Keel, Lady Roberta remarks "I understand, Havelock, that you scored zero in your examination for stealthy movement."
The "correction" mentions only the "missed" classes, which apparently didn't bar him from the exam. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

==TV Casting==
Remember, in Sky's adaptation of The Colour Of Magic, Vetinari is played by Jeremy Irons. I don't know where in this article this should be mentioned, but it's noteworthy. [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 16:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
:I don't know that most of us accept that he was Patrician at the time of {{COM}}, although Irons certainly plays him that way, not like the fat hedonist from the book. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

== Roundworld equivalent ==

OK I know a wiki isn't the right place to post current-event-blog-satire but this picture nails the Roundworld-Vetinari to an accuracy of 225%

[[http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/political-pictures-putin-gr.jpg Vlad Putin pic]]

[[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 22:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Five years on, it is possible to marvel at the prescience of this comment. Where are the Guild of Assassins when you need them? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 19:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

==Vetinari In Concert==
The Assassins' Guild School is known to require proficiency in some musical instrument, and V. is known to have an ear that prefers his own reading of the score to any imperfect performance of it. I wonder what his instrument was. The violin, like Sherlock Holmes, or the oboe, perhaps, because it's difficult? Maybe an even more unusual Agatean instrument, or the Klatchian asp-pipe? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

:I would say the violin would be the most obvious choice, which probably means it's automatically excluded. Maybe something unexpected like a harp, or even bagpipes? Though given V. seems to be proficient in almost everything he can probably play whatever instrument he picks up. --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 09:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I realise this doesn't mean he actually plays it, but in Going Postal Moist says he has 'pianist's fingers'. --[[User:Rachel95|Rachel95]] 21:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I would have thought the violin a good, if predictable choice (OK, I must admit I see Vetinari as a very Holmesian character considering his build, skills, mind and abilities - if anything he seems a cross between Sherlock and Mycroft and if you want to go into sort of conspiracy-theorizing one might say even the name hints at this link: both 'Have'(in Havelock) and 'My' (in Mycroft) being terms of ownership, while 'lock' being in both 'Sherlock' and 'Havelock' - though perhaps that's just the thoughts of a mind that notices odd, seemingly deliberate coincidences. I remember reading somewhere that a Sherlock like detective probably wouldn't work that well in Ankh-Morpork, but a Sherlock like character would surely still be a possibility).

Anyway - back on topic, on the main Wikipedia page for Vetinari it says
:'Vetinari also enjoys reading written music rather than listening to it performed, because the idea of it being performed by people, with all the sweat and saliva involved, strikes him as distasteful.'
Perhaps the thought of 'sweat and saliva' would be somewhat off putting with some instruments - especially wind instruments - though the violin would seem quite inoffensive in these respects as far as I can see.

It's also worth remembering he's a Doctor of Music and, let's face it, a polymath. I expect he'd be proficient in a variety of instruments, and still probably be able to play new instruments quite easily through transferable skills (like his juggling in Klatch during Jingo). I must admit I'm biased as I play the violin (though not well), however the skills/knowledge involved in it have greatly helped me in learning the plucked psaltery and tabor pipe, hence the line of thinking above.

This is, of course, assuming he actually plays music. He may have the skills and played in the past but who knows now? Certainly his view of music means he might just play it with his mind (see Soul Music - or [http://www.ealasaid.com/fan/vetinari/vl-soulmusic.html this useful webpage]

[[User:GallifreyanWitch|GallifreyanWitch]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 14:45, 21 November 2013 (GMT)

Interesting ideas. I gave one of my Assassins, in fanfic, the tuba, just for the sheer incongruity of it... (there was another more intricate joke involved, but you'd have to read the fic...) So what would Vetinari play? Well, he'd be cunning. In the Assassins' School Orchestra, he might be the piccolo player: he could just slip it into his inside pocket, bid the rest of the orchestra goodnight, and be in bed a long time before the timpanist had dismantled and packed his drums. He might be the man who quietly points out that the Uberwaldean music teacher meant no insult, as few people outside Überwald would know the word " das Faggot" means "bassoon". (weird but true). I suppose he might play the Extremely Muted Trumpet as an extention of his skills in stealth and concealment, arguing that a musical instrument making any sort of sound would betray his position... or else, given the social disruption caued by Music With rocks In, somewhere in the lowest dungeons of the palace, in a sound-proofed triple-locked room, there is The Guitar and a righteous heap of Marshall Stacks, where Vetinari goes to chill and blast out a few riffs. After all, the guitar is ''dangerous'' in other hands...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:52, 21 November 2013 (GMT)
:"Doctor of Music"? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:59, 21 November 2013 (GMT)
::Love the ideas for different instruments. The concept of subtlety does seem very in keeping but can't help but grin at the thought of The Guitar.
:: Re: Doctor of Music, to quote the page for the [[Assassins'_Guild|Assassins Guild]]:
:::Lord Havelock Vetinari Holding the Title 'Provost of Assassins' and the following degrees: DMAP [Doctor of Medicine & Applied Pathology], '''DM [Doctor of Music]''', DGS [Doctor of God Studies], MA [Master Assassins], MPE [Master of Political Expediency], MASc [Master of Alchemical Science], MIDD [Member of the Institute of Dance & Deportment], BScI [Bachelor of the Science of Inhumation] & DiPE [Diploma in Physical Education]
::--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 23:53, 26 November 2013 (GMT)
:But where does ''that'' come from? Is it in the Handbook? It would suggest that he spent many extra years at the College rather than hiding out on a long Grand Sneer as we suspected and wouldn't he have found many of these courses a great waste of time? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:14, 2 December 2013 (GMT) (From [[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]], apparently, so maybe from the Handbook. I'd still like confirmation. If so, I'd have to think of most as honorary degrees.} --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:50, 2 December 2013 (GMT)

Ah, I see what you mean. I was relying on what was written on this wiki. I'm not familiar with the handbook. Do you mean Assassins Guild Yearbook - not that I'd know if it were included as I don't have that one. From the looks of it this is the change to the Assassins guild page that mentions it: http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Assassins%27_Guild&diff=13110&oldid=13096.

: Is there some kind of standard referencing system used on this wiki to clear up confusions like this? I've been a keen reader of this wiki for quite a while, but my joining it is quite recent so I don't really know.

EDIT: Having just had a quick look at 'The Library' - can't easily provide the link due to tablet and formatting but a quick google search for 'Havelock Vetinari Library' should show it up - under the page for Assassins it lists his qualifications as based on the Assassins Guild Yearbook.

I would also suspect that, to a mind like Vetinari's, all knowledge is useful. Looking at them I can't really see any that wouldn't be of use in some way. Political Expediancy, science of inhumation and physical education all make sense for an assassin. Master assassin might be to do with the origional qualification granted by the guild or an additional level of teaching (e.g. BSc vs Masters vs Doctrate). The more curious ones are Member of the institute of Dance and Deportment, Doctor of Music, Doctor of God Studies, Doctor of Medicine and Applied Pathology and Master of Alchemical Science, but even then I think most of these can be explained. Dance and Deportment would be useful to someone entering a rather traditional world which values such skills - and Dance would encourage a number of skills of use to an assassin . Medicine and Applied Pathology would probably teach both how to kill and understand killing methods involving quite natural means (or at least means that appear natural) as well as what to do if one encounters problems oneself - and medicine would always be useful for staying alive (especially since the Doctors of Ankh-Morpork don't seem all that great - presents the option for the physician to heal thyself). Alchemical Science would probably be akin to chemistry, and useful in understanding the substances used in the guild (poisons, antidotes, sleeping draughts, etc). Music is perhaps a curious one - but then again it might be the precise nature, the skills involved and mental challenge that would interest him (it would probably encourage nimble fingers and mind - and might be useful to bear in mind he does seem to like puzzles). God studies might be the strangest - but considering how real the Deities of the Disc are it would probably be a good idea to understand them - and it might be worth considering there have been assassins like Teatime who'd considered how to inhume anthropomorphic personifications.

If anything I'm suprised he didn't go on to get a Doctrate in Languages (which he probably has the skills for (and perhaps his understanding of Klatchian hints at this in Jingo) and seems the only potentially relevent qualification left for him to get in my mind).

Perhaps, as he learnt in the guild origionally perhaps a wide variety of skills he might have decided to go on and formalise his knowledge. On the other hand perhaps he's a life long student, constantly seeking a new challenge (which seems quite fitting considering his improvements to the city).

And, based on the age/time line discussion above and the timeline I've been working on, he may have had 7 to 17 years before becoming patrician - and theres at least a gap of 12 years between Night Watch and his assumed graduation according to The Truth - in which time he could have quite easily got quite a few qualifications. I think this would also leave time for the Grand Sneer - which might take only a year or two or three - still leaving plenty of time. Perhaps the Guild even does correspondance/distance learning/modular courses or special shorter courses that are of use to the average noble not going to go on to take the black. If he's patrician during The Colour of Magic then it seems he may have used the post graduate courses during his time as patrician. And perhaps he did extra study while at the guild initially - considering his study of Camouflage during Night Watch he seems a keen and attentive student, and perhaps once he'd reached the point where he could fail/get 100% for camouflage his attentions turned to other subjects. He really does seem an eclectic polymath. And don't forget his attitude to the books brought to him by the rat's during Guards! Guards! - 'Lacemaking through the ages'? (But that's assuming it wasn't a rebound book). The text even says 'he was not a man to ignore fresh knowledge'.

Getting back to Qualifications (having so greatly deviated from the original topic of musical instruments - perhaps this should be copied to a new thread) now we have a potential refernece for the qualifications might it be worth listing them on Vetinari's page (so we don't have to keep swapping to the Assassins Guild page to learn what he qualified in)?

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 01:15, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Just been wondering across Youtube in search of tips on how to play irish fiddle music and due to the interconnectedness of all things stumbled upon this:

Jeremy Irons learning to play the fiddle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvTxPz5L2tU

Considering he played the Patrician in The Colour of Magic in a very Vetinari like way it reminded me of this thread. Can now mentally see Vetinari playing the fiddle, and not necessarily classical.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 10:09, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

== Glorious Revolution ==

Any ideas on re-wording this to be bit better? I understood young Samuel Vimes was present, but the older self had gone back.
As well, the Patrician fought in the event on the side of the Watchmen, though at a period Vimes was not present.
--[[Special:Contributions/82.130.29.57|82.130.29.57]] 00:38, 24 February 2011 (CET)

== Past Havelock knows Vimes is Vimes... ==

Having recently heard the audio book version of ''Night Watch'', something stuck out to me about halfway through. When Vimes (posing as Keel) goes to visit Vetinari's aunt, it is revealed once Vimes/Keel leaves that Havelock knows he is called Vimes. I don't understand where he came by this information or if this is a typo or simply needs to be chalked up to Vetinari being omniscient, even in the past. Thoughts?
:In the book (Corgi PB, p.256), V. refers to him as Keel. A little brain-cramp in the audiobook script, maybe? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:13, 8 April 2013 (GMT)
::Ah, must be, must be. Thanks for the info.

== An Explanation for Overweight Vetinari ==

This was just my two cents that I didn't know where-else I could post, but seeing as there were two explanations given to the massive discrepancy in weight and nature between Lord Vetinari between the initial Discworld books and subsequent tales;

When beginning his career as Patrician, Lord Vetinari perhaps felt it appropriate to maintain the image of 'here comes the old boss, same as the new boss' as in appearing somewhat plump, cold and foreboding, without weakness yet exuberant and overindulging with a penchant for candied jellyfish (a vice that could be taken advantage of come need to dispose of him).

The moment the masses perceived him to be just like the former patricians as a whole (a promising start only to lead to a spectacularly terrible finish) he could then lose the weight and vices, whipping the rug out from under the populace with such speed and skill, the majority (poor) didn't notice the change (or if they did, they didn't care), and the minority (wealthy) were in no position to point it out.
--[[User:IronDino|IronDino]] ([[User talk:IronDino|talk]]) 17:16, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

==A most amusing bit of trivia==
I really don't know if Terry meant to do this deliberately or indeed if he was even aware of it. But in my Web meanderings, I have discovered that the American Sign Language gesture for "vagina", often used by deaf people talking among themselves to communicate displeasure at the personality, attitudes or general demotic-vagina-ness of a nearby hearing person, involves ''holding your hands flat, fingers together, thumbs extended, and the tips of the thumbs and forefingers touching.''

In other words, ''steepling the fingers''.

How many times does Vetinari do this in conversation with people he finds irksome, stupid or annoying? Is it a private joke? We are told Vetinari is multi-lingual, and elsewhere that Assassins have a sign-language and finger code they use among their own.... the question is, does he consciously refrain from this mannerism if he ever needs to discuss issues with the Ankh-Morpork Society For The Deaf? (unless he finds their representatives to be irksome or annoying...). I must work this into fanfic now I know of it...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 12:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Reminds me of ''The Da Vinci Code'' film, now you point it out, although there the symbolism was the other way up to represent the feminine (i.e. a 'V' shape). Along similar lines of thought (if increasingly tenuous to the discussion re: Discworld books etc)the symbolism for the natural elements of Air (Intellect) and Fire (Spirit) (masculine elements)incorporate triangles pointing upwards - which I guess could be thought similar to steepled fingers. It certainly is an interesting idea it being code (whether private joke or designed to be interpreted/understood by someone - regardless of the meaning/symbolism - in which case, is there any consistency in the occurrence?). Then again, it could be one of those interesting 'coincidences' Narrativia has thrown in Terry's path, which he's sort of mentioned happening before. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC) OK - just done a bit more googling and also found that the shape of steepled fingers could also correlate to the symbols for 'action' or 'shelter' in 'Bliss language' (Not the same Bliss referred to in {{SOD4}} but an interesting coincidence nonetheless)--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Very sorry to post again, but rereading your post I couldn't help but wonder where it says Vetinari's multilingual. Personally I think he is, but I don't recall any direct mention in the books (except or the hint when he understands but claims not to have spoken - which is different to not being able to speak - Klatchian in {{J}} ) and based on his list of qualifications there's no mention of him being a Doctor of Languages (which seems odd considering everything else he's got and the relevance of such a qualification to his occupation). --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:I remember the mention of languages as his academic "major" at the College. I can't say where it was, of course. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
::I don't know whether this is the reference your thinking of, but I've just found a mention to him studying languages at the Assassins Guild in Jingo - no mention of it being a major just 'studied' - I'd of thought if he'd majored in it it would add some letters behind his name (But then again, for all we know the list of qualifications in the Yearbook might not be exhaustive) and languages would, perhaps, be a normal (if smaller if not followed up by the pupil) part of the Guilds teachings.
::--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:43, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Sexuality==
I know that there are hints that Vetinari is in some kind of relationship with Lady Margolotta, but there is a hint in Unseen Academicals that he might be gay, Glenda at one point muses that 'no one knew which side of the bed he got out of, or if he got out of bed at all', suggesting that, at least in the realm of Ankh Morpork rumour, he could be gay or a-sexual. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this idea? --(unsigned comment by [[User: Jarona]] 15 August 2014‎)

:While I personally don't follow the idea that he's gay (ok, I'll admit it, I'm also more than a bit Havelocked so I'm not exactly inclined to think that way - though it would be typical: all the best men are gay, taken, fictional or dead, after all) perhaps this reference/rumor is a nod towards the fanfiction archives: it's hard at times to go scrolling through AO3 without seeing his Lordship embroiled in some affair or other - often enough with Vimes. As of today there are 330 works listed as featuring Vetinari, 91 of which feature a relationship (beyond normal work, if you see what I mean) with Commander Vimes, 30 of which feature a relationship with Drumknott, 2 with Von Lipwig and even one with Carrot. And that's only on AO3 - I know there's other archives out there (Fanfiction.net springs to mind). That's quite a contrast to the 9 where he's involved with Sybil Ramkin and 8 where he's involved with Margolotta. Then there's those who suggest he's bi-sexual: there's 16 works on AO3 where he's involved with Sam AND Sybil. And then there's those with Original Characters - but thats another story (literally)
:What I find funny is how there's even a few fanfictions out there that play on the idea of the rumors. It's hardly surprising really: a tyrants love life is bound to attract some attention from the gossip-hungry public (and political opponents, of course).
:You can even see characters in canon speculating a bit. I'd completely forgotten (or probably naively taken as read) the quote you mentioned,but there's also a bit in [[The Truth]], for example:
::''"Mrs Arcanum patted her hair. 'I've always thought Lord Vetinari was a most handsome man,' she said, and then looked flustered when they all stared at her. 'I meant, I'm just a little surprised there isn't a Lady Vetinari. As it were. Ahem.'! ''

:I think part of it is that some people don't buy to the Vetinari/Margolotta relationship - I actually remember finding a page one time that listed reasons this canon-mentioned relationship might not be active during most the canon, and thus why people might not believe in it. Even before finding that I was having my doubts: there's so much potential interference with politics to start with, and the distance might not help, but it's a useful political tool both benefit from by maintaining the illusion - You can see that in Raising Steam when certain suggestions are made a train to Uberwald would ease "political" relations - which it does, in a way, but with the Dwarves mainly.
:As a result (I think), since people are still looking for someone to pair him up with (Modern Jane Austen style), Vimes and a love/hate relationship seems to be the popular option.
:And there goes a chunk of what I was hoping to write as a paper one day on the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork (because studying a single fictional character of the Disc is a ton more fun than revising Phytochemistry and other Herbalism related subjects that I need to do).
:--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 17:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

File talk:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg

2015-03-23T15:16:36Z

GallifreyanWitch:

This is odd; .png is an allowed format and there are others (see File:AaaaDACC.png). It shows up if you click on it: I wonder why no preview. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:47, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

My thoughts precisely. At first I thought it was just me, and that while .png was allowed it wasn't a format the wiki worked best with - providing a link rather than image - but when I saw the same was occurring with a .jpg I began to wonder what was going on. Looking at the uploaded files it looks as if files going back to Nov 20th have been affected with the same problem - whatever that be - and they're .jpg's too. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 15:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
:But I don't have the problem (see File:EXP.jpg), except that there are no thumbnails in the '''Gallery of new files''' lately. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
::The file is there, the thumbnail is not. So images which are big enough to require a thumbnail are showing a broken link. Click on it though and you'll still see the original file. Something to look into. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 00:20, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
:So, I begin to grasp: large files (in px, not necessarily KB} can't be thumbnailed on the page, large being somewhere north of 600px. The Gallery, meanwhile, isn't showing thumbnails regardless. It's probably seldom that anything the size of File:Rince cycle.jpg needs to be uploaded, of course; 640x480 is pretty large on the screen. Maybe we could post some guidelines to size and resolution somewhere (Help:editing)? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:34, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

::It was a configuration issue, when the picture reaches a certain size a thumbnail should be generated and used instead. However, they weren't being generated. I had some time to sit down and figure it out tonight so they're working now. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

:::Of course I spoke too soon. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
::::New files had thumbnails, old ones didn't. But that's all fixed now. Let me know if there is anything else. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:56, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
: Hah! Nothing like having a god on your side... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
: Wonderful - glad to see the images come up --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 15:16, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

File talk:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg

2015-03-18T15:39:05Z

GallifreyanWitch:

User:GallifreyanWitch

2015-03-16T17:55:20Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* 12th March 2015 */

Sorry if I'm not really meant to do a Bio - don't know what else to put for the time being and despite searching can't find any guidelines.

'''Please forgive spelling errors - my keyboard plays up at times and is a nightmare'''

I would also like to appologise in advance or overly long posts - I sort-of follow Ridcully's philosophy that anything worth taking a long time to explain is quite an interesting or worthwhile topic to explore

== The Basics ==

AKA: Layla Wolf/Verity/[The] Gallifreyan Witch

Female

Age: Early Twenty's

The mind, heart and soul wanders other worlds, but the physical form is based in Wales.

Member of the Discworld MUD - user: VerityWolf (don't play it as much as I'd like to sadly)

First Pratchett book I read was THUD! - A friend of my mum had recommended it and while my mum didn't get it (she doesn't really get that sort of humor based on metaphors etc) I loved it and have been hooked ever since.

Huge fan of Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, though I have a sneaking suspicion the Discworld is becoming a permanent fixture in my mind, more so even than the two universes mentioned above. When my mind wanders, it wanders the streets of Ankh-Morpork, the Ramtop mountains and the slopes of Cori Celesti, rather than through time and space or the streets of Victorian London as it so often has. I justify this mentally in someways by recognising the Disc is a world and mirror of worlds - and so both my other fandoms will have their parallels on the Disc somewhere. Also a fan of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, The Farseer Trilogy, The Chronicles of Ancient Darkness and His Dark Materials - but none have touched my heart and taken over my mind to the extent of the Whoniverse, Holmsiverse or Discworld.

Currently studying Herbal Medicine BSc (Hons). Have a long standing interest in 'alternative' (but lets face it - truly traditional) medicine and 'energy' work. Consequently I find the activities of the Witches fascinating and often all to close to the truth.

Previous studies have included History (focusing on the medieval period), Archaeology, Psychology and Astronomy.

Hobbies (other than dreaming and reading) include Medieval Re-enactment (which includes Archery, Quarterstaff and one day Sword fighting, Fingerloop braiding), Lord of the Rings Online and Music (the violin - but not at all good at it due to muscle pains it causes - , plucked psaltery and tabor pipe and drum).

Currently writing up the adventures on the Disc that I dream about. Got about 4 main stories on the go, 3ish on the edge of my mind and 2 short story all in the same (new) thread. With just their bare bones (the central story lines that are even then yet to be fleshed out) the first and second ones word counts are over 14,000 words already! Now if only I could harness that writing magic and use it to get so real work done for my degree. Working hard not to make them Mary-Sueish, but it's hard when you place a sort of mirror of yourself on another world and see it through their eyes and feel it with their heart. At present I'm writing to record them and get them to move beyond simply my mind. Perhaps one day, I may improve and publish them online if I ever feel they may have some worth to others and can get over my lack of confidence.

Also working on a timeline both in general and specifically for Vetinari - see talk page (it's a shame there isn't a page attached to the character pages enabling a suggested timeline for the character to be displayed and edited - ''hint hint'')

I'm also learning to draw - though I'm not very good - and will hopefully one day be able to contribute fan art and illustrate the stories I dream up.

== Happy Yule 2013 ==
I do feel sorry for my family. They've got me A Blink of the Screen and Dodger which I'm absolutely delighted with and are putting up with me wittering on about the Disc - which they don't always 'get'. And a friend has got me Raising Steam (which my parents had said not to get on the basis it would distract me from my studies) and The Complete Ankh-Morpork - which I am absolutely engrossed in. Consequently my mind is back on the Disc, rather than in much needed revision.

== A thought on the Year of the Reciprocating Llama ==

Recently my mind has been on stamps (of the Discworld variety, naturally) thanks to the Discworld Emporium bringing out some special limited edition ones to celebrate 10 years since they started making them and 10 years since Going Postal. On a side note I'm rather delighted to have found myself the owner of a smiling penny patrician as well as a pure black Vetinari Four pence, even if I didn't get one of the Blue triangles, an autographed card, autographed first day cover or the solid gold penny patrician - how a couple of sports can make up for the realization I missed all that I haven't a clue, but it does.

Anyway...

Something occurred to me, when studying the sheet of Vetinari Four Penny's I bought that along the bottom of it is the line: "Honouring Our Esteemed Tyrant - Lord Havelock Vetinari - Year of the Reciprocating Llama".

For some reason it was playing on my mind over the last couple of days.

Then a particle of inspiration, or perhaps understanding, hit me.

The [[Year of the Reciprocating Llama]] is 2014.

Vetinari is still the Patrician as of that date! (Talk about survivability - I wonder if he's set a record for the longest lasting Patrician yet).

We may not have the stories up to the present day yet, and the characters may be getting on a bit in years (By my calculations Havelock would be 74/75, Sam 73/74, Moist 50/51, Ridcully 98/99, Granny Weatherwax 88/89, Susan 44/45, Carrot 45/46 and Young Sam would be 24/25) even if they're not really showing it (if the Penny Patricians and Penny Moists are anything to go by - time seems to have gone a bit wibbly-wobbly) but there seems some continuity, some stretching of the Time Line beyond the books to the present day! Unless of course there is some strange parallel-shift that means 2014 (and the year of the reciprocating llama) on Roundworld is equivalent to the year 2000/1 (10 years after Going Postal took place) on Discworld. That still adds a few years on top of our already established timeline (with Vetinari in his 60s, Moist in his mid-30s etc).

Mind aching a little at playing around with numbers and dates, but feeling a little happy hope that the former conclusion is accurate.

Oh, and another thought! Unseen Academicals takes place in the Year of the Pensive Hare - according to the Discworld Stamps website that correlates to 2009. That date seems a little far ahead, and leaves quite a long gap after main confirmed event dates (e.g. Thud etc in 1990/1 and Snuff in 1995/6?) and mix up the order a bit, but applying the same logic that the names applied on roundworld are a good few years behind and using the assumption 2000/1 = 10 yrs after Going Postal, that could place it around 1995/6 - the same year as Snuff?

-------------

== Fanfiction ==

I've finally started publishing some fanfiction!

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2545592 Divination After Dark] - 2014.10.31 - Mistress Weatherwax during one dark and stormy Soul's Cake night recalls a scene from her youth.

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2719736/chapters/6103628 Personent Hodie] - 2014.12.05 - a Filk based on the Medieval song of the same name - also in image format on [http://gallifreyan-witch.deviantart.com/art/Personent-Hodie-narrow-498530613 Deviant Art]

-----------

== 12th March 2015 ==

As a rule, I wouldn't publish my fanart here - at most I'd provide links - as I know this is a wiki page and I don't want to swamp it with what belongs on a personal blog or website. But then, some rules are meant to be broken, or at least bent, and this is hardly normal circumstances.
My own little tribute, drawn the night of the 12th after hearing thed news, though only published on the 16th when I finally got home to an Internet connection.
[[File:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg|thumbnail]]

User:GallifreyanWitch

2015-03-16T17:53:48Z

GallifreyanWitch: 12th march pic added

Sorry if I'm not really meant to do a Bio - don't know what else to put for the time being and despite searching can't find any guidelines.

'''Please forgive spelling errors - my keyboard plays up at times and is a nightmare'''

I would also like to appologise in advance or overly long posts - I sort-of follow Ridcully's philosophy that anything worth taking a long time to explain is quite an interesting or worthwhile topic to explore

== The Basics ==

AKA: Layla Wolf/Verity/[The] Gallifreyan Witch

Female

Age: Early Twenty's

The mind, heart and soul wanders other worlds, but the physical form is based in Wales.

Member of the Discworld MUD - user: VerityWolf (don't play it as much as I'd like to sadly)

First Pratchett book I read was THUD! - A friend of my mum had recommended it and while my mum didn't get it (she doesn't really get that sort of humor based on metaphors etc) I loved it and have been hooked ever since.

Huge fan of Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes, though I have a sneaking suspicion the Discworld is becoming a permanent fixture in my mind, more so even than the two universes mentioned above. When my mind wanders, it wanders the streets of Ankh-Morpork, the Ramtop mountains and the slopes of Cori Celesti, rather than through time and space or the streets of Victorian London as it so often has. I justify this mentally in someways by recognising the Disc is a world and mirror of worlds - and so both my other fandoms will have their parallels on the Disc somewhere. Also a fan of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, The Farseer Trilogy, The Chronicles of Ancient Darkness and His Dark Materials - but none have touched my heart and taken over my mind to the extent of the Whoniverse, Holmsiverse or Discworld.

Currently studying Herbal Medicine BSc (Hons). Have a long standing interest in 'alternative' (but lets face it - truly traditional) medicine and 'energy' work. Consequently I find the activities of the Witches fascinating and often all to close to the truth.

Previous studies have included History (focusing on the medieval period), Archaeology, Psychology and Astronomy.

Hobbies (other than dreaming and reading) include Medieval Re-enactment (which includes Archery, Quarterstaff and one day Sword fighting, Fingerloop braiding), Lord of the Rings Online and Music (the violin - but not at all good at it due to muscle pains it causes - , plucked psaltery and tabor pipe and drum).

Currently writing up the adventures on the Disc that I dream about. Got about 4 main stories on the go, 3ish on the edge of my mind and 2 short story all in the same (new) thread. With just their bare bones (the central story lines that are even then yet to be fleshed out) the first and second ones word counts are over 14,000 words already! Now if only I could harness that writing magic and use it to get so real work done for my degree. Working hard not to make them Mary-Sueish, but it's hard when you place a sort of mirror of yourself on another world and see it through their eyes and feel it with their heart. At present I'm writing to record them and get them to move beyond simply my mind. Perhaps one day, I may improve and publish them online if I ever feel they may have some worth to others and can get over my lack of confidence.

Also working on a timeline both in general and specifically for Vetinari - see talk page (it's a shame there isn't a page attached to the character pages enabling a suggested timeline for the character to be displayed and edited - ''hint hint'')

I'm also learning to draw - though I'm not very good - and will hopefully one day be able to contribute fan art and illustrate the stories I dream up.

== Happy Yule 2013 ==
I do feel sorry for my family. They've got me A Blink of the Screen and Dodger which I'm absolutely delighted with and are putting up with me wittering on about the Disc - which they don't always 'get'. And a friend has got me Raising Steam (which my parents had said not to get on the basis it would distract me from my studies) and The Complete Ankh-Morpork - which I am absolutely engrossed in. Consequently my mind is back on the Disc, rather than in much needed revision.

== A thought on the Year of the Reciprocating Llama ==

Recently my mind has been on stamps (of the Discworld variety, naturally) thanks to the Discworld Emporium bringing out some special limited edition ones to celebrate 10 years since they started making them and 10 years since Going Postal. On a side note I'm rather delighted to have found myself the owner of a smiling penny patrician as well as a pure black Vetinari Four pence, even if I didn't get one of the Blue triangles, an autographed card, autographed first day cover or the solid gold penny patrician - how a couple of sports can make up for the realization I missed all that I haven't a clue, but it does.

Anyway...

Something occurred to me, when studying the sheet of Vetinari Four Penny's I bought that along the bottom of it is the line: "Honouring Our Esteemed Tyrant - Lord Havelock Vetinari - Year of the Reciprocating Llama".

For some reason it was playing on my mind over the last couple of days.

Then a particle of inspiration, or perhaps understanding, hit me.

The [[Year of the Reciprocating Llama]] is 2014.

Vetinari is still the Patrician as of that date! (Talk about survivability - I wonder if he's set a record for the longest lasting Patrician yet).

We may not have the stories up to the present day yet, and the characters may be getting on a bit in years (By my calculations Havelock would be 74/75, Sam 73/74, Moist 50/51, Ridcully 98/99, Granny Weatherwax 88/89, Susan 44/45, Carrot 45/46 and Young Sam would be 24/25) even if they're not really showing it (if the Penny Patricians and Penny Moists are anything to go by - time seems to have gone a bit wibbly-wobbly) but there seems some continuity, some stretching of the Time Line beyond the books to the present day! Unless of course there is some strange parallel-shift that means 2014 (and the year of the reciprocating llama) on Roundworld is equivalent to the year 2000/1 (10 years after Going Postal took place) on Discworld. That still adds a few years on top of our already established timeline (with Vetinari in his 60s, Moist in his mid-30s etc).

Mind aching a little at playing around with numbers and dates, but feeling a little happy hope that the former conclusion is accurate.

Oh, and another thought! Unseen Academicals takes place in the Year of the Pensive Hare - according to the Discworld Stamps website that correlates to 2009. That date seems a little far ahead, and leaves quite a long gap after main confirmed event dates (e.g. Thud etc in 1990/1 and Snuff in 1995/6?) and mix up the order a bit, but applying the same logic that the names applied on roundworld are a good few years behind and using the assumption 2000/1 = 10 yrs after Going Postal, that could place it around 1995/6 - the same year as Snuff?

-------------

== Fanfiction ==

I've finally started publishing some fanfiction!

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2545592 Divination After Dark] - 2014.10.31 - Mistress Weatherwax during one dark and stormy Soul's Cake night recalls a scene from her youth.

[http://archiveofourown.org/works/2719736/chapters/6103628 Personent Hodie] - 2014.12.05 - a Filk based on the Medieval song of the same name - also in image format on [http://gallifreyan-witch.deviantart.com/art/Personent-Hodie-narrow-498530613 Deviant Art]

-----------

== 12th March 2015 ==

As a rule, I wouldn't publish my fanart here - at most I'd provide links - as I know this is a wiki page and I don't want to swamp it with what belongs on a personal blog or website. But then, some rules are meant to be broken, or at least bent, and this is hardly normal circumstances.
My own little tribute, drawn the night of the 12th after hearing thed news, though only published on the 16th when I finally got home to an Internet connection.

File:Quite a Legacy (reuploaded).jpg

2015-03-16T17:51:27Z

GallifreyanWitch: Drew this the night of the 12th March 2015. I wouldn't normally publish my little attempts at fanart here, but then, the 12th was no ordinary day in Discworld history, and these are hardly normal circumstances. Re-upload of the image I tried to uploa...

Drew this the night of the 12th March 2015. I wouldn't normally publish my little attempts at fanart here, but then, the 12th was no ordinary day in Discworld history, and these are hardly normal circumstances.

Re-upload of the image I tried to upload as a png (Very sorry about that - feel free to delete the png - I had no idea it wouldn't appear as an image when uploaded.

File:Quite a Legacy.png

2015-03-16T17:40:49Z

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2015-03-16T17:24:13Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Thursday, March 12, 2015 */

Light Dams

2015-02-09T19:53:23Z

GallifreyanWitch:

An architectural and engineering feat in the [[Great Nef]] desert, desighned and built by [[Goldeneyes Silverhand Dactylos]].

While not described in the text, it would appear from context that these are otherwise conventional dams, strategically located in the Nef desert to trap and channel the sluggish Discworld light, so that it can be exported and/or sold on to other parts of the [[Disc]] that need it more than a desert does. The further details of the technology/technomancy involved have so far not been disclosed to us. The Light Dams and their devisor make an appearance in {{COM}}.

The Light Dams were featured on a [http://www.discworldstampcatalogue.co.uk/shs0350.html minisheet of stamps] issued in 2014 - the Year of the Reciprocating Llama - as one of the Wonders of the World series.

[[Category:Discworld culture]]
[[Category:Devices]]
[[de:Lichtdämme]]

Man With Dog

2015-02-09T18:32:22Z

GallifreyanWitch:

This is [[William Pouter]]'s portrait of [[Vetinari]] with his faithful pet dog, [[Wuffles]]. (Although there are rumours that the Patrician carefully nurtures a man who is his exact body double, for specifically stated reasons such as sitting for portraits, or attending long-winded civic functions where it is important that the Patrician be seen to attend).

Normally on display in the [[Royal Art Museum]], for most of the events described in {{MM}}, there was presumably an empty space on the wall and a face-saving notice hastily pinned up there apologising that the portrait had been taken down for cleaning.

The picture had in fact been stolen to order (Sir [[Reynold Stitched]] gloomily admitted that this is an occupational hazard of running an art gallery) and when encountered in {{MM}}, is in fact hanging on the wall in [[Cosmo Lavish]]'s study as part of his obsessive and some might say, lunatic, drive to become Vetinari and take his place as [[Patrician]].

Cosmo succeeds so well in becoming as one with Vetinari - at least, to his own satisfaction - that he actually has intelligent conversations with the painting. Although the advanced blood poisoning brought about by a [[Stygium|gangrenous finger]] might have something to do with this particular heightened state of consciousness.

Following official recognition of Cosmo's claim to the Patricianship, and a greater interest being taken in the private lives of the [[Lavishes|Lavish]] family (if only to recover several tons of missing gold), it is possible the painting has been recovered and is now back in its rightful place.

Although Sir Reynold must surely now be thinking of enhanced security measures, as that's ''twice'' now that a major artwork has been stolen from his Gallery.

In 2014 - the Year of the Reciprocating Llama - the painting was featured on a [http://www.discworldstampcatalogue.co.uk/stamps/shs0353a.gif 6p stamp] and had a [http://www.discworldstampcatalogue.co.uk/shs0353.html sport variation].

[[Category:Discworld culture]]
[[de:Mann mit Hund]]

Talk:Muntab

2015-02-09T16:15:43Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Link to the Ottoman Empire? */ new section

'''Muntab mentioned in Wyrd Sisters'''
Someone might want to include something from Wyrd Sisters, ''"The calender of the Theocracy of Muntab counts down, not up. No-one knows why, but it might not be a good idea to hang around and find out."'' Source: http://www.lspace.org/books/pqf/wyrd-sisters.html Sorry I don't have time to write copy myself ;) -torb

:Did you read it all the way through? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

== Muntab currentlty ==

I'll check into this but if someone has it on the top of their minds:

In one of the later books (early in the book), could be {{T5E}} could be {{GP}} there is an exchange between [[Vetinari]] and someone during a discussion of current foreign affairs:

Vetinari: -... and there is also the Muntab question.

Someone: - Where is Muntab?

Vetinari: - Exactly

[[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 16:27, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:Nanny Ogg asks Verence the Muntab Question in {{CJ}}; being a trained Fool he doesn't seem to know the joke. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::You just saved my evening. This got stuck in my head and I browsing everything with Vetinari in it. At least I got books organized on the bokoshelf (after a year and a half in this appartment) [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 18:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I remember the exchange with Vetinari, too but I can't find it. (It has to be there, that's the joke - Nanny and Verence just mess it up because we're supposed to remember it from the previous mention.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 18:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::On wikipedia it's mentioned as the question which side the developed nations will choose in a war between Borogravia and Muntab. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 13:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

:Does this idea come from a game? WP gives no reference, despite their rules. Muntab isn't very nearby Borogravia, either. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 01:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

OK I found it. {{TT}}, first time Vetinari visits the printing shed and "appoints" William de Worde as responsible, the conversation goes:

Vetinari -On the whole, I wish to avoid any low-level difficulties at this time, what with the unsettled situation in Übervald and the whole Muntab question.

WdWorde -Where's Muntab?

Vetinari -Exactly. [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 22:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:Likely the annotator didn't read this, or get the joke. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

== Link to the Ottoman Empire? ==

The mention of the word Pasha in the annotations got me thinking and researching.

A wider comparison to the Ottoman empire seems quite possible in my mind. For one thing, it was once quite large, covering parts of Eastern Europe, Northern Africa, Egypt, Arabia, Israel... the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ottoman_Empire list] goes on and on. This presents the possibility it stretched all the way up to Überwald and Borogravia. Given how Vlad the Impaler fought against the Ottoman Empire on Roundworld it makes one wonder if the same happened on the Disc - which would certainly help explain the foot hold of the Vampires in Uberwald. The uniform of the military in Borogravia is also similar to that used by the British forces during the Crimean War - which in part was due to the decline of the Ottoman Empire and conflict over the lands it once occupied.

In fact, might "the Muntab Question" actually refer to the "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Question Eastern Question]" - which was ultimately to do with the power struggle between European powers who had interests in the crumbling Ottoman Empire? It would explain their continued significance and why the Muntab Question continues to bother the politicians of the Disc.

This might also fit in with the joke over "Where is Muntab" - "Exactly" - as the Empire dwindles.

Geographically, Muntab - if it stretched up to Borogravia - might have also included the large body of water on the {{DM}} rimwards of Borogravia - much like how the Ottoman Empire at one point surrounded the Black Sea, while the mountains of Klatchistan going hubwards might be akin to the Balkans and Carpathians.

I'm now finding a map forming in my head of the Disc of Old, in an age when they were yet to grow out of the idea of Empires and so the Disc was divided up between a few big powers... Ankh-Morpork, Muntab, Uberwald, The "Evil Empire", Klatch...

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 16:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Vanglemesh

2015-02-09T15:20:32Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Link to Bangladesh */ new section

[[Vanglemesht]] is mentioned twice outside of the Mapp. Could this have been intended to be the same thing? Or is it something else? [[User:TC01|TC01]] 02:33, 14 November 2010 (CET)

That's interesting, as there is a Kahn-Li mentioned in {{RM}} and a country called Khanli on {{DM}}. I have made the assumption these are the same place, (although I always try to be cheeful if I am ever proven wrong!)

Going back to the article on Vanglemesht, though, this specifically says it is about the spoken language, not the country where it is spoken. If the country is Vanglemesh, without a "T", this parellels Roundworld example: eg ''Germany'' (the country) is where ''German'' (the language) is spoken. ''Sverige'' is the name for the country in its own language, which is of course ''svensk.''

Therefore:
*[[Vangelmesh]] the country;
*[[Vanglemesht]] the language

--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 15:16, 14 November 2010 (CET)

== Link to Bangladesh ==

Having just added the Annotation about name comparisons to Bangladesh, I decided it best to hold back from adding too many assumptions to the entry.

What I was thinking of saying though, was from this comparison we might be able to start guessing about the culture and politics of the region. For example, Bangladesh's foreign policy is based on the principle of "friendship towards all and malice towards none". Given Vanglemesh's location - quit close to once invasive Omnia, Istanzia with it's recently transgressing troops (of where we do not know) and various other relatively nearby powers (who, if history teaches us anything, are quite likely to have had little conflicts between each other) a policy like Bangladesh's might prove useful in creating relative benevolent neutrality (if there is such a thing and it's not too paradoxical) and help them avoid any such conflicts.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 15:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Vanglemesh

2015-02-09T15:07:16Z

GallifreyanWitch:

Vangelmesh is a mysterious country marked on {{DM}} as being in the foothills of the [[Klatchistan]] mountains, rimwards of [[Smale]], [[Ushistan]] and [[Betrek]]. Very little is known about it, except that by proximity it may once have been a conquered satellite of [[Omnia]]. it is highly possible that [[Vanglemesht]] is spoken here.

== Annotation ==
Given the sound of the name, there might be a link to the Roundworld [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh Bangladesh]. Good old Wikipedia describes it as being being bordered by India to it's west, north and east - which given the proximity and relative location of [[Ghat]] seems somewhat similar when looking at the {{DM}} - and while mostly low lying, it does feature a hilly region and rivers - on the Discworld Map a river is visible coming out of this Vanglemesh. Bangladesh also has several more mountainous neighbors, such as Nepal, which seems reminiscent of Vanglemesh's location in the foothills of the Klatchistan Mountains as mentioned above.

And if that wasn't enough support for the link it seems that [[Kythia|once]] [[Samothrip|again]], Pratchett has looked to historic place names and etymologies to name places on the Disc: The name Bangladesh may derive from the ancient Kingdom of Vanga (which in turn, interestingly enough, is thought to link to the Austric word "Bonga" meaning Sun God - perhaps a link to the [[Mountains of the Sun]]?). "-desh" is linked to the Sanskrit word simply meaning "land" or "country". The area has also been known as "Vangla" (back in 805 AD) and "Vangaladesa" (in the 11th century).

[[Category:Discworld geography]]
[[de:Wangelmescht (Land)]]

User talk:GallifreyanWitch

2015-01-10T21:34:53Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* An Experiment... */

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

== Thoughts ==
=== Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari ===

<big><big>POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING</big></big>

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:
* Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
* Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
* Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
* Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year (UC) !! Vetinari's Age !! Current affairs
|-
| 1939 or 1940 || Possible Year of Birth||
|-
| 1941 || 1/2 ||
|-
| 1942 || 2/3 ||
|-
| 1943 || 3/4 ||
|-
| 1944 || 4/5 ||
|-
| 1945 || 5/6 ||
|-
| 1946 || 6/7 ||
|-
| 1947 || 7/8 ||
|-
| 1948 || 8/9 ||
|-
| 1949 || 9/10 ||
|-
| 1950 || 10/11 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1951 || 11/12 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1952 || 12/13 ||
|-
| 1953 || 13/14 ||
|-
| 1954 || 14/15 ||
|-
| 1955 || 15/16 ||
|-
| 1956 || 16/17 ||
|-
| '''1957''' || 17/18 || '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || '''Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.'''
|-
| || || '''Participates in the Glorious Revolution''' (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
|-
| || || Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
|-
| 1958 || 18/19 ||
|-
| 1959 || 19/20 ||
|-
| 1960 || 20/21 ||
|-
| 1961 || 21/22 ||
|-
| 1962 || 22/23 ||
|-
| 1963 || 23/24 ||
|-
| '''1964''' || 24/25 || '''''The Colour of Magic''''' and '''''The Light Fantastic'''''
|-
| || || Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
|-
| 1965 || 25/26 ||
|-
| 1966 || 26/27 || Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
|-
| || || ''Equal Rights''
|-
| 1967 || 27/28 || Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
|-
| || || Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
|-
| '''1968''' || 28/29 || '''Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, ''The Truth'')'''
|-
| || ||[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
|-
| 1969 || 29/30 || Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
|-
| || || Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
|-
| 1970 || 30/31 || Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
|-
| 1971 || 31/32 ||
|-
| 1972 || 32/33 ||
|-
| 1973 || 33/34 ||
|-
| '''1974''' || 34/35 || '''''Sorcery'''''
|-
| || || '''Definitely Patrician.'''
|-
| || || '''Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.'''
|-
| || ||'''Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.'''
|-
| 1975 || 35/36 ||
|-
| 1976 || 36/37 ||
|-
| 1977 || 37/38 ||
|-
| 1978 || 38/39 ||
|-
| 1979 || 39/40 ||
|-
| 1980 || 40/41 ||
|-
| 1981 || 41/42 ||
|-
| 1982 || 42/43 ||
|-
| 1983 || 43/44 ||
|-
| 1984 || 44/45 || Verence II of Lancre crowned
|-
| 1985 || 45/46 || '''''Guards! Guards!'''''
|-
| || || '''Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive'''
|-
| || || '''Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.'''
|-
| || || Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
|-
| || || '''Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary'''
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
|-
| || || Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
|-
| || || Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
|-
| || || ''Witches Abroad'' - Lillith deposed in Genua
|-
| || || '''''Moving Pictures'''''
|-
| || || Vetinari visits the Odeon
|-
| || || '''''Reaper Man'''''
|-
| || || '''Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting'''
|-
| 1986 || 46/47 || '''''Men At Arms'''''
|-
| || || '''Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.'''
|-
| || || ''' Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards''' [and slight limp for a short while?]
|-
| || || Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
|-
| || ||Detritus and Angua join the Watch
|-
| || || '''''Interesting Times'''''
|-
| || || Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
|-
| || || '''''Soul Music'''''
|-
| || || '''Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)'''
|-
| || ||Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
|-
| 1987 || 47/48 || '''''Feet of Clay'''''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him'''
|-
| || || Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
|-
| || || Movement to free Golems starts
|-
| || || Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
|-
| || || ''Hogfather''
|-
| 1988 || 48/49 || '''''Jingo'''''
|-
| || || '''Leshp war with Klatch'''
|-
| || || '''Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.'''
|-
| || || '''Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before'''
|-
| || || Vimes created Duke of Ankh
|-
| || || 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
|-
| 1989 || 49/50 || '''''The Fifth Elephant'''''
|-
| 1990 || 50/51 || '''''The Truth'''''
|-
| || || '''Wuffles aged 16'''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent'''
|-
| || || Later events of '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || Birth of Young Sam Vimes
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || '''''Going Postal'''''
|-
| || || Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || ''Monstrous Regiment''
|-
| || || Borogravia-Zlobenia War
|-
| || || '''''THUD!'''''
|-
| || || Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
|-
| || || '''Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.'''
|-
| 1992 || 52/53 ||
|-
| 1993 || 53/54 ||
|-
| 1994 || 54/55 ||
|-
| 1995 || 55/56 ||
|-
| 1996 || 56/57 || '''''Snuff'''''
|-
| 1997 || 57/58 ||
|-
| 1998 || 58/59 ||
|-
| 1999 || 59/60 ||
|-
| 2000 || 60/61 ||
|}

=== [[Patrician's Palace|The Patrician's Palace]] ===

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems.
For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in [[Guards! Guards!]]. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)?
Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved?
The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/
Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are:
[[Book:The_Science_of_Discworld_IV:_Judgment_Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229))
Guards! Guards!
Feet of Clay
Night Watch

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the [[Menagerie]] on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

[[File:Ankh-morpork 004.JPG]]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

[[File:Patricianspalace.PNG]]

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the [[Pictsie]] page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues
perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Normal Talk ==
==...using the page for its usual purpose==
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. ([[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] disappeared after planting another little mystery in [[Mrs Beddowe's House]]. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Dating==
I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. ''However'', in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Make that

== An Experiment... ==

Something I've been working on for a little while... I wonder if there would be a way to include it on the wiki - I can't find a way to simply embed it. I'll leave it here for now so hopefully can come back to it at a later time:
http://www.thinglink.com/scene/609101018046660609
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

wow. Impressed. This is definitely addable. How much work and dedication went into this?

Looking at the map also tells me ''exactly'' where "Aceria" should go in my fanfic take on the Discworld - in my head the location of an, er, Canada-like country on the Disc had been wobbling around a bit. But now I see it.... (''Oh Aceria! From Hub to shining sea!'') Start around the Hub and move outwards through all the unclaimed and un-named territory as far as Hudson's Bay, sorry, Whale Bay... Quirmian Aceria would be in there somewwhere, too. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Delighted you like it!

Quite a bit of time was spent on tracing. I considered adding colour (beyond an attempt a at a sort of vellum/parchment effect) but decided to keep it simple (especially since it would have taken a lot longer). Around the Hubwards Circle Sea region I also copied the map edge from the Raising Steam map of the region (it has more rivers).
Must admit it's also got me thinking a lot about the other blank regions. Wondering about Russia and Spain equivalents at the moment.
There's a couple of spots on the map which are different to the others: I'm going to make "close up" maps of those regions, which would enable greater detail, especially since Mrs Bradshaw's guide provides a few maps with new places on them, and on the Rimwards Circle Sea region there's a lot going on within quite a small area, which can't be shown at this scale.

I was also hoping to make a similar map for Ankh-Morpork, possibly with greater detail of individual areas (i.e. click a neighborhood and it will take you to a detailed map of that region). I have been desperate for the past year to properly sit down and try and correlate locations named in The Complete Ankh-Morpork with where they are on the maps - e.g. the shops and pubs and wells. I recently managed to get a highly detailed 1:1 scan of The Complete Ankh-Morpork Map so I could start overlaying it with the Streets of Ankh-Morpork one (which I've had in a digital format for ages now)- each has details the other lacks which might help identify individual properties.
Funny thing is, I'm sure I've spotted a few inconsistencies, especially between the drawing on the reverse of the new Ankh-Morpork map and the actual plan of the city itself, which makes things a bit more complicated. I've been trying to draw an image of Ankh-Morpork from the opposite direction to that on the reverse of the map (i.e. Looking down the River Ankh)

All in all, it seems I have a habit of keeping myself busy with Discworld stuff almost to the detriment of everything else. It's so intrinsically rewarding. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The Discworld Spain is almost canonical: it appears in {{WA}}. of course, as The Place Where They Do [[That Thing With The Bulls]]... ([[Olé!]]). {{W}} introduces [[Wotua Doinov|a people who speak a suspiciously Russian-like language]]; Far Uberwald and Zlobenia have an interestingly Russia-like vibe going on. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 14:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
:First, will the map work as a wiki page? If so, why not install it? Suggestions and discussion could then carry on in its talk page without overloading this one. If not, what to do with it? It would remain just an external link. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

:: Oh yes - forgotten about those references - I just don't recall names being attached - need a reread methinks. It's a shame the atlas that was meant to be published in 2014 wasn't. It would answer so many questions and blank spots on the map - though it would probably result in a lot of redrawing (and the hubwards sea coast, I'm finding, is a bit of a nightmare as the different versions don't quite match up).
::: I really don't know whether it will work as a wiki page, unfortunately. If it was possible to embed things from external sources it should - but so far I haven't found a way. My original intention was to experiment with it here, but I couldn't find a way to embed it. I've seen some sites (admittedly thinking An Archive of Our Own and Tumblr)offer rich text or HTML editing - I've found it works (not perfectly, but to a certain extent) with both of these sites, where they seem to treat it like a video. I've looked around and unfortunately can't find any alternative free website/programs.Perhaps I'm missing something, but I think this might be a coding matter - which I've absolutely no experience of. My mind is now drifting towards learning some coding and making a dedicated website with java or something...

My intention with using this format was that it's a little easier to read without being overly cluttered and/or having to match numbers to places. Having said that, I'd be happy to upload named/numbered versions as simple images to use on the wiki - I could easily see a single spot being used to point out a site on some of the pages about different location and simplified, regionalised maps with links underneath (i.e. Whole Map with links to Klatchian continent, Hub, Ramtops, Sto Plains, etc --> Map of Sto Plains with Links to cities, etc which link either directly to pages or to further maps etc, etc...). It's a bit more of a clunky, slow method, but should, I think, maintain a level of visuals and interactivity - almost like clicking a 'zoom in' (or 'pan' for moving according to compass points) button on Google Earth. It would certainly be a decent work around without any risk of braking the wiki or need to work on coding. Images are images: we can edit them to meet our needs. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 21:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User talk:GallifreyanWitch

2015-01-10T21:32:03Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* An Experiment... */

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

== Thoughts ==
=== Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari ===

<big><big>POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING</big></big>

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:
* Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
* Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
* Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
* Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year (UC) !! Vetinari's Age !! Current affairs
|-
| 1939 or 1940 || Possible Year of Birth||
|-
| 1941 || 1/2 ||
|-
| 1942 || 2/3 ||
|-
| 1943 || 3/4 ||
|-
| 1944 || 4/5 ||
|-
| 1945 || 5/6 ||
|-
| 1946 || 6/7 ||
|-
| 1947 || 7/8 ||
|-
| 1948 || 8/9 ||
|-
| 1949 || 9/10 ||
|-
| 1950 || 10/11 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1951 || 11/12 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1952 || 12/13 ||
|-
| 1953 || 13/14 ||
|-
| 1954 || 14/15 ||
|-
| 1955 || 15/16 ||
|-
| 1956 || 16/17 ||
|-
| '''1957''' || 17/18 || '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || '''Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.'''
|-
| || || '''Participates in the Glorious Revolution''' (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
|-
| || || Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
|-
| 1958 || 18/19 ||
|-
| 1959 || 19/20 ||
|-
| 1960 || 20/21 ||
|-
| 1961 || 21/22 ||
|-
| 1962 || 22/23 ||
|-
| 1963 || 23/24 ||
|-
| '''1964''' || 24/25 || '''''The Colour of Magic''''' and '''''The Light Fantastic'''''
|-
| || || Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
|-
| 1965 || 25/26 ||
|-
| 1966 || 26/27 || Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
|-
| || || ''Equal Rights''
|-
| 1967 || 27/28 || Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
|-
| || || Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
|-
| '''1968''' || 28/29 || '''Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, ''The Truth'')'''
|-
| || ||[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
|-
| 1969 || 29/30 || Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
|-
| || || Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
|-
| 1970 || 30/31 || Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
|-
| 1971 || 31/32 ||
|-
| 1972 || 32/33 ||
|-
| 1973 || 33/34 ||
|-
| '''1974''' || 34/35 || '''''Sorcery'''''
|-
| || || '''Definitely Patrician.'''
|-
| || || '''Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.'''
|-
| || ||'''Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.'''
|-
| 1975 || 35/36 ||
|-
| 1976 || 36/37 ||
|-
| 1977 || 37/38 ||
|-
| 1978 || 38/39 ||
|-
| 1979 || 39/40 ||
|-
| 1980 || 40/41 ||
|-
| 1981 || 41/42 ||
|-
| 1982 || 42/43 ||
|-
| 1983 || 43/44 ||
|-
| 1984 || 44/45 || Verence II of Lancre crowned
|-
| 1985 || 45/46 || '''''Guards! Guards!'''''
|-
| || || '''Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive'''
|-
| || || '''Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.'''
|-
| || || Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
|-
| || || '''Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary'''
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
|-
| || || Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
|-
| || || Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
|-
| || || ''Witches Abroad'' - Lillith deposed in Genua
|-
| || || '''''Moving Pictures'''''
|-
| || || Vetinari visits the Odeon
|-
| || || '''''Reaper Man'''''
|-
| || || '''Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting'''
|-
| 1986 || 46/47 || '''''Men At Arms'''''
|-
| || || '''Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.'''
|-
| || || ''' Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards''' [and slight limp for a short while?]
|-
| || || Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
|-
| || ||Detritus and Angua join the Watch
|-
| || || '''''Interesting Times'''''
|-
| || || Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
|-
| || || '''''Soul Music'''''
|-
| || || '''Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)'''
|-
| || ||Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
|-
| 1987 || 47/48 || '''''Feet of Clay'''''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him'''
|-
| || || Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
|-
| || || Movement to free Golems starts
|-
| || || Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
|-
| || || ''Hogfather''
|-
| 1988 || 48/49 || '''''Jingo'''''
|-
| || || '''Leshp war with Klatch'''
|-
| || || '''Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.'''
|-
| || || '''Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before'''
|-
| || || Vimes created Duke of Ankh
|-
| || || 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
|-
| 1989 || 49/50 || '''''The Fifth Elephant'''''
|-
| 1990 || 50/51 || '''''The Truth'''''
|-
| || || '''Wuffles aged 16'''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent'''
|-
| || || Later events of '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || Birth of Young Sam Vimes
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || '''''Going Postal'''''
|-
| || || Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || ''Monstrous Regiment''
|-
| || || Borogravia-Zlobenia War
|-
| || || '''''THUD!'''''
|-
| || || Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
|-
| || || '''Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.'''
|-
| 1992 || 52/53 ||
|-
| 1993 || 53/54 ||
|-
| 1994 || 54/55 ||
|-
| 1995 || 55/56 ||
|-
| 1996 || 56/57 || '''''Snuff'''''
|-
| 1997 || 57/58 ||
|-
| 1998 || 58/59 ||
|-
| 1999 || 59/60 ||
|-
| 2000 || 60/61 ||
|}

=== [[Patrician's Palace|The Patrician's Palace]] ===

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems.
For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in [[Guards! Guards!]]. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)?
Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved?
The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/
Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are:
[[Book:The_Science_of_Discworld_IV:_Judgment_Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229))
Guards! Guards!
Feet of Clay
Night Watch

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the [[Menagerie]] on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

[[File:Ankh-morpork 004.JPG]]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

[[File:Patricianspalace.PNG]]

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the [[Pictsie]] page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues
perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Normal Talk ==
==...using the page for its usual purpose==
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. ([[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] disappeared after planting another little mystery in [[Mrs Beddowe's House]]. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Dating==
I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. ''However'', in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Make that

== An Experiment... ==

Something I've been working on for a little while... I wonder if there would be a way to include it on the wiki - I can't find a way to simply embed it. I'll leave it here for now so hopefully can come back to it at a later time:
http://www.thinglink.com/scene/609101018046660609
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

wow. Impressed. This is definitely addable. How much work and dedication went into this?

Looking at the map also tells me ''exactly'' where "Aceria" should go in my fanfic take on the Discworld - in my head the location of an, er, Canada-like country on the Disc had been wobbling around a bit. But now I see it.... (''Oh Aceria! From Hub to shining sea!'') Start around the Hub and move outwards through all the unclaimed and un-named territory as far as Hudson's Bay, sorry, Whale Bay... Quirmian Aceria would be in there somewwhere, too. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Delighted you like it!

Quite a bit of time was spent on tracing. I considered adding colour (beyond an attempt a at a sort of vellum/parchment effect) but decided to keep it simple (especially since it would have taken a lot longer). Around the Hubwards Circle Sea region I also copied the map edge from the Raising Steam map of the region (it has more rivers).
Must admit it's also got me thinking a lot about the other blank regions. Wondering about Russia and Spain equivalents at the moment.
There's a couple of spots on the map which are different to the others: I'm going to make "close up" maps of those regions, which would enable greater detail, especially since Mrs Bradshaw's guide provides a few maps with new places on them, and on the Rimwards Circle Sea region there's a lot going on within quite a small area, which can't be shown at this scale.

I was also hoping to make a similar map for Ankh-Morpork, possibly with greater detail of individual areas (i.e. click a neighborhood and it will take you to a detailed map of that region). I have been desperate for the past year to properly sit down and try and correlate locations named in The Complete Ankh-Morpork with where they are on the maps - e.g. the shops and pubs and wells. I recently managed to get a highly detailed 1:1 scan of The Complete Ankh-Morpork Map so I could start overlaying it with the Streets of Ankh-Morpork one (which I've had in a digital format for ages now)- each has details the other lacks which might help identify individual properties.
Funny thing is, I'm sure I've spotted a few inconsistencies, especially between the drawing on the reverse of the new Ankh-Morpork map and the actual plan of the city itself, which makes things a bit more complicated. I've been trying to draw an image of Ankh-Morpork from the opposite direction to that on the reverse of the map (i.e. Looking down the River Ankh)

All in all, it seems I have a habit of keeping myself busy with Discworld stuff almost to the detriment of everything else. It's so intrinsically rewarding. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The Discworld Spain is almost canonical: it appears in {{WA}}. of course, as The Place Where They Do [[That Thing With The Bulls]]... ([[Olé!]]). {{W}} introduces [[Wotua Doinov|a people who speak a suspiciously Russian-like language]]; Far Uberwald and Zlobenia have an interestingly Russia-like vibe going on. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 14:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
:First, will the map work as a wiki page? If so, why not install it? Suggestions and discussion could then carry on in its talk page without overloading this one. If not, what to do with it? It would remain just an external link. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

: Oh yes - forgotten about those references - I just don't recall names being attached - need a reread methinks. It's a shame the atlas that was meant to be published in 2014 wasn't. It would answer so many questions and blank spots on the map - though it would probably result in a lot of redrawing (and the hubwards sea coast, I'm finding, is a bit of a nightmare as the different versions don't quite match up).
:: I really don't know whether it will work as a wiki page, unfortunately. If it was possible to embed things from external sources it should - but so far I haven't found a way. My original intention was to experiment with it here, but I couldn't find a way to embed it. I've seen some sites (admittedly thinking An Archive of Our Own and Tumblr)offer rich text or HTML editing - I've found it works (not perfectly, but to a certain extent) with both of these sites, where they seem to treat it like a video. I've looked around and unfortunately can't find any alternative free website/programs.Perhaps I'm missing something, but I think this might be a coding matter - which I've absolutely no experience of. My mind is now drifting towards learning some coding and making a dedicated website with java or something...

My intention with using this format was that it's a little easier to read without being overly cluttered and/or having to match numbers to places. Having said that, I'd be happy to upload named/numbered versions as simple images to use on the wiki - I could easily see a single spot being used to point out a site on some of the pages about different location and simplified, regionalised maps with links underneath (i.e. Whole Map with links to Klatchian continent, Hub, Ramtops, Sto Plains, etc --> Map of Sto Plains with Links to cities, etc which link either directly to pages or to further maps etc, etc...). It's a bit more of a clunky, slow method, but should, I think, maintain a level of visuals and interactivity - almost like clicking a 'zoom in' (or 'pan' for moving according to compass points) button on Google Earth. It would certainly be a decent work around without any risk of braking the wiki or need to work on coding. Images are images: we can edit them to meet our needs. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 21:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User talk:GallifreyanWitch

2015-01-10T12:08:07Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* An Experiment... */

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

== Thoughts ==
=== Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari ===

<big><big>POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING</big></big>

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:
* Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
* Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
* Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
* Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year (UC) !! Vetinari's Age !! Current affairs
|-
| 1939 or 1940 || Possible Year of Birth||
|-
| 1941 || 1/2 ||
|-
| 1942 || 2/3 ||
|-
| 1943 || 3/4 ||
|-
| 1944 || 4/5 ||
|-
| 1945 || 5/6 ||
|-
| 1946 || 6/7 ||
|-
| 1947 || 7/8 ||
|-
| 1948 || 8/9 ||
|-
| 1949 || 9/10 ||
|-
| 1950 || 10/11 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1951 || 11/12 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1952 || 12/13 ||
|-
| 1953 || 13/14 ||
|-
| 1954 || 14/15 ||
|-
| 1955 || 15/16 ||
|-
| 1956 || 16/17 ||
|-
| '''1957''' || 17/18 || '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || '''Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.'''
|-
| || || '''Participates in the Glorious Revolution''' (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
|-
| || || Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
|-
| 1958 || 18/19 ||
|-
| 1959 || 19/20 ||
|-
| 1960 || 20/21 ||
|-
| 1961 || 21/22 ||
|-
| 1962 || 22/23 ||
|-
| 1963 || 23/24 ||
|-
| '''1964''' || 24/25 || '''''The Colour of Magic''''' and '''''The Light Fantastic'''''
|-
| || || Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
|-
| 1965 || 25/26 ||
|-
| 1966 || 26/27 || Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
|-
| || || ''Equal Rights''
|-
| 1967 || 27/28 || Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
|-
| || || Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
|-
| '''1968''' || 28/29 || '''Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, ''The Truth'')'''
|-
| || ||[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
|-
| 1969 || 29/30 || Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
|-
| || || Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
|-
| 1970 || 30/31 || Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
|-
| 1971 || 31/32 ||
|-
| 1972 || 32/33 ||
|-
| 1973 || 33/34 ||
|-
| '''1974''' || 34/35 || '''''Sorcery'''''
|-
| || || '''Definitely Patrician.'''
|-
| || || '''Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.'''
|-
| || ||'''Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.'''
|-
| 1975 || 35/36 ||
|-
| 1976 || 36/37 ||
|-
| 1977 || 37/38 ||
|-
| 1978 || 38/39 ||
|-
| 1979 || 39/40 ||
|-
| 1980 || 40/41 ||
|-
| 1981 || 41/42 ||
|-
| 1982 || 42/43 ||
|-
| 1983 || 43/44 ||
|-
| 1984 || 44/45 || Verence II of Lancre crowned
|-
| 1985 || 45/46 || '''''Guards! Guards!'''''
|-
| || || '''Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive'''
|-
| || || '''Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.'''
|-
| || || Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
|-
| || || '''Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary'''
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
|-
| || || Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
|-
| || || Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
|-
| || || ''Witches Abroad'' - Lillith deposed in Genua
|-
| || || '''''Moving Pictures'''''
|-
| || || Vetinari visits the Odeon
|-
| || || '''''Reaper Man'''''
|-
| || || '''Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting'''
|-
| 1986 || 46/47 || '''''Men At Arms'''''
|-
| || || '''Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.'''
|-
| || || ''' Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards''' [and slight limp for a short while?]
|-
| || || Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
|-
| || ||Detritus and Angua join the Watch
|-
| || || '''''Interesting Times'''''
|-
| || || Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
|-
| || || '''''Soul Music'''''
|-
| || || '''Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)'''
|-
| || ||Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
|-
| 1987 || 47/48 || '''''Feet of Clay'''''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him'''
|-
| || || Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
|-
| || || Movement to free Golems starts
|-
| || || Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
|-
| || || ''Hogfather''
|-
| 1988 || 48/49 || '''''Jingo'''''
|-
| || || '''Leshp war with Klatch'''
|-
| || || '''Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.'''
|-
| || || '''Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before'''
|-
| || || Vimes created Duke of Ankh
|-
| || || 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
|-
| 1989 || 49/50 || '''''The Fifth Elephant'''''
|-
| 1990 || 50/51 || '''''The Truth'''''
|-
| || || '''Wuffles aged 16'''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent'''
|-
| || || Later events of '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || Birth of Young Sam Vimes
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || '''''Going Postal'''''
|-
| || || Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || ''Monstrous Regiment''
|-
| || || Borogravia-Zlobenia War
|-
| || || '''''THUD!'''''
|-
| || || Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
|-
| || || '''Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.'''
|-
| 1992 || 52/53 ||
|-
| 1993 || 53/54 ||
|-
| 1994 || 54/55 ||
|-
| 1995 || 55/56 ||
|-
| 1996 || 56/57 || '''''Snuff'''''
|-
| 1997 || 57/58 ||
|-
| 1998 || 58/59 ||
|-
| 1999 || 59/60 ||
|-
| 2000 || 60/61 ||
|}

=== [[Patrician's Palace|The Patrician's Palace]] ===

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems.
For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in [[Guards! Guards!]]. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)?
Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved?
The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/
Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are:
[[Book:The_Science_of_Discworld_IV:_Judgment_Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229))
Guards! Guards!
Feet of Clay
Night Watch

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the [[Menagerie]] on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

[[File:Ankh-morpork 004.JPG]]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

[[File:Patricianspalace.PNG]]

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the [[Pictsie]] page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues
perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Normal Talk ==
==...using the page for its usual purpose==
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. ([[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] disappeared after planting another little mystery in [[Mrs Beddowe's House]]. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Dating==
I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. ''However'', in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Make that

== An Experiment... ==

Something I've been working on for a little while... I wonder if there would be a way to include it on the wiki - I can't find a way to simply embed it. I'll leave it here for now so hopefully can come back to it at a later time:
http://www.thinglink.com/scene/609101018046660609
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

wow. Impressed. This is definitely addable. How much work and dedication went into this?

Looking at the map also tells me ''exactly'' where "Aceria" should go in my fanfic take on the Discworld - in my head the location of an, er, Canada-like country on the Disc had been wobbling around a bit. But now I see it.... (''Oh Aceria! From Hub to shining sea!'') Start around the Hub and move outwards through all the unclaimed and un-named territory as far as Hudson's Bay, sorry, Whale Bay... Quirmian Aceria would be in there somewwhere, too. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Delighted you like it!

Quite a bit of time was spent on tracing. I considered adding colour (beyond an attempt a at a sort of vellum/parchment effect) but decided to keep it simple (especially since it would have taken a lot longer). Around the Hubwards Circle Sea region I also copied the map edge from the Raising Steam map of the region (it has more rivers).
Must admit it's also got me thinking a lot about the other blank regions. Wondering about Russia and Spain equivalents at the moment.
There's a couple of spots on the map which are different to the others: I'm going to make "close up" maps of those regions, which would enable greater detail, especially since Mrs Bradshaw's guide provides a few maps with new places on them, and on the Rimwards Circle Sea region there's a lot going on within quite a small area, which can't be shown at this scale.

I was also hoping to make a similar map for Ankh-Morpork, possibly with greater detail of individual areas (i.e. click a neighborhood and it will take you to a detailed map of that region). I have been desperate for the past year to properly sit down and try and correlate locations named in The Complete Ankh-Morpork with where they are on the maps - e.g. the shops and pubs and wells. I recently managed to get a highly detailed 1:1 scan of The Complete Ankh-Morpork Map so I could start overlaying it with the Streets of Ankh-Morpork one (which I've had in a digital format for ages now)- each has details the other lacks which might help identify individual properties.
Funny thing is, I'm sure I've spotted a few inconsistencies, especially between the drawing on the reverse of the new Ankh-Morpork map and the actual plan of the city itself, which makes things a bit more complicated. I've been trying to draw an image of Ankh-Morpork from the opposite direction to that on the reverse of the map (i.e. Looking down the River Ankh)

All in all, it seems I have a habit of keeping myself busy with Discworld stuff almost to the detriment of everything else. It's so intrinsically rewarding. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 12:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

User talk:GallifreyanWitch

2015-01-06T22:20:19Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* An Experiment... */ new section

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

== Thoughts ==
=== Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari ===

<big><big>POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING</big></big>

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:
* Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
* Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
* Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
* Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year (UC) !! Vetinari's Age !! Current affairs
|-
| 1939 or 1940 || Possible Year of Birth||
|-
| 1941 || 1/2 ||
|-
| 1942 || 2/3 ||
|-
| 1943 || 3/4 ||
|-
| 1944 || 4/5 ||
|-
| 1945 || 5/6 ||
|-
| 1946 || 6/7 ||
|-
| 1947 || 7/8 ||
|-
| 1948 || 8/9 ||
|-
| 1949 || 9/10 ||
|-
| 1950 || 10/11 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1951 || 11/12 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1952 || 12/13 ||
|-
| 1953 || 13/14 ||
|-
| 1954 || 14/15 ||
|-
| 1955 || 15/16 ||
|-
| 1956 || 16/17 ||
|-
| '''1957''' || 17/18 || '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || '''Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.'''
|-
| || || '''Participates in the Glorious Revolution''' (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
|-
| || || Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
|-
| 1958 || 18/19 ||
|-
| 1959 || 19/20 ||
|-
| 1960 || 20/21 ||
|-
| 1961 || 21/22 ||
|-
| 1962 || 22/23 ||
|-
| 1963 || 23/24 ||
|-
| '''1964''' || 24/25 || '''''The Colour of Magic''''' and '''''The Light Fantastic'''''
|-
| || || Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
|-
| 1965 || 25/26 ||
|-
| 1966 || 26/27 || Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
|-
| || || ''Equal Rights''
|-
| 1967 || 27/28 || Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
|-
| || || Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
|-
| '''1968''' || 28/29 || '''Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, ''The Truth'')'''
|-
| || ||[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
|-
| 1969 || 29/30 || Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
|-
| || || Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
|-
| 1970 || 30/31 || Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
|-
| 1971 || 31/32 ||
|-
| 1972 || 32/33 ||
|-
| 1973 || 33/34 ||
|-
| '''1974''' || 34/35 || '''''Sorcery'''''
|-
| || || '''Definitely Patrician.'''
|-
| || || '''Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.'''
|-
| || ||'''Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.'''
|-
| 1975 || 35/36 ||
|-
| 1976 || 36/37 ||
|-
| 1977 || 37/38 ||
|-
| 1978 || 38/39 ||
|-
| 1979 || 39/40 ||
|-
| 1980 || 40/41 ||
|-
| 1981 || 41/42 ||
|-
| 1982 || 42/43 ||
|-
| 1983 || 43/44 ||
|-
| 1984 || 44/45 || Verence II of Lancre crowned
|-
| 1985 || 45/46 || '''''Guards! Guards!'''''
|-
| || || '''Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive'''
|-
| || || '''Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.'''
|-
| || || Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
|-
| || || '''Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary'''
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
|-
| || || Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
|-
| || || Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
|-
| || || ''Witches Abroad'' - Lillith deposed in Genua
|-
| || || '''''Moving Pictures'''''
|-
| || || Vetinari visits the Odeon
|-
| || || '''''Reaper Man'''''
|-
| || || '''Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting'''
|-
| 1986 || 46/47 || '''''Men At Arms'''''
|-
| || || '''Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.'''
|-
| || || ''' Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards''' [and slight limp for a short while?]
|-
| || || Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
|-
| || ||Detritus and Angua join the Watch
|-
| || || '''''Interesting Times'''''
|-
| || || Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
|-
| || || '''''Soul Music'''''
|-
| || || '''Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)'''
|-
| || ||Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
|-
| 1987 || 47/48 || '''''Feet of Clay'''''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him'''
|-
| || || Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
|-
| || || Movement to free Golems starts
|-
| || || Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
|-
| || || ''Hogfather''
|-
| 1988 || 48/49 || '''''Jingo'''''
|-
| || || '''Leshp war with Klatch'''
|-
| || || '''Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.'''
|-
| || || '''Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before'''
|-
| || || Vimes created Duke of Ankh
|-
| || || 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
|-
| 1989 || 49/50 || '''''The Fifth Elephant'''''
|-
| 1990 || 50/51 || '''''The Truth'''''
|-
| || || '''Wuffles aged 16'''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent'''
|-
| || || Later events of '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || Birth of Young Sam Vimes
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || '''''Going Postal'''''
|-
| || || Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || ''Monstrous Regiment''
|-
| || || Borogravia-Zlobenia War
|-
| || || '''''THUD!'''''
|-
| || || Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
|-
| || || '''Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.'''
|-
| 1992 || 52/53 ||
|-
| 1993 || 53/54 ||
|-
| 1994 || 54/55 ||
|-
| 1995 || 55/56 ||
|-
| 1996 || 56/57 || '''''Snuff'''''
|-
| 1997 || 57/58 ||
|-
| 1998 || 58/59 ||
|-
| 1999 || 59/60 ||
|-
| 2000 || 60/61 ||
|}

=== [[Patrician's Palace|The Patrician's Palace]] ===

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems.
For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in [[Guards! Guards!]]. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)?
Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved?
The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/
Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are:
[[Book:The_Science_of_Discworld_IV:_Judgment_Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229))
Guards! Guards!
Feet of Clay
Night Watch

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the [[Menagerie]] on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

[[File:Ankh-morpork 004.JPG]]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

[[File:Patricianspalace.PNG]]

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the [[Pictsie]] page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues
perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Normal Talk ==
==...using the page for its usual purpose==
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. ([[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] disappeared after planting another little mystery in [[Mrs Beddowe's House]]. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Dating==
I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. ''However'', in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Make that

== An Experiment... ==

Something I've been working on for a little while... I wonder if there would be a way to include it on the wiki - I can't find a way to simply embed it. I'll leave it here for now so hopefully can come back to it at a later time:
http://www.thinglink.com/scene/609101018046660609
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Ankh-Morpork Neighbourhoods

2015-01-05T22:29:15Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* The Question Marks */

SysOps :: this page probably should have an 's' on the end, '''Ankh-Morpork Neighbourhoods'''. Can this be changed?
: Done --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 14:51, 16 August 2006 (CEST)
:: Many thanks :) --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 19:00, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

----

I really thought I better discuss what I've included in this article.

*Is neighbourhood the correct terminology? How about Suburb, Village, District?
**Village - As referred to in the books. "...soon encompassed the surrounding villages." [[The Discworld Companion|DC]]

** Neighbourhood seems okay, although they are former villages. AFAIK it's not common to keep calling them villages, and they aren't in the book. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 14:51, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

::: I didn't think village was appropriate for the same reasons. District would not work - I believe districts are run as local goverments and Suburbs would more likely be the bits outside of the city walls. --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 19:00, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

The books do refer to [[New Ankh]], which I've always associated with the urban sprawl outside the city walls? As the blurb in the Mapp points out, the area encompassed inside the walls, although it's where most of the action takes place, is way too small for a million people, and even those used to Hong Kong would think they were overcrowded were that the case... and most walled cities break out, after a few hundred years, into suburbs outside the walls. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 15:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

----

*Are we ok to included images like I have here? Are there any copyright issues we need to worry about?
**Have you done the image by yourself? In that case it should be no problem. I hope you add a translated version to the [[:de:Hauptseite|DiscWiki]] when the names are sorted out ;-) --[[User:Death|Death]] 09:09, 18 July 2006 (CEST)
***Yes I did the image myself. I created a vector graphics version of the [[Book:Streets of Ankh-Morpork|Streets of Ankh-Morpork]] by scanning the map and then tracing over it with vectors (quite a number of weeks work for sure). Copyright can be confusing for sure. I guess we'll here about it if we do something wrong. --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 15:11, 18 July 2006 (CEST)
****If unsure, contact [[Stephen Briggs]] or [[Colin Smythe|Terry's agent]], they'll know whether it's right or wrong. I'm sure that if you send a polite note they won't see any harm in it, but if they have to discover it themselves they could be less inclined to ne easy going. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 14:51, 16 August 2006 (CEST)
:::: I'll drop Mr Briggs a note and see what he thinks. --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 19:00, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

----

**Take a look at the '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RincewindTLH.png Rincewind pic on Wikipedia]''' and the ''''Fair Use'''' information. Can we also include images from Paul Kidby and other sources under a 'Fair Use' license? --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 20:01, 19 July 2006 (CEST)
***''This work is copyrighted and unlicensed. It does not fall into one of the blanket fair use categories. However, it is believed that the use of this work in the article "Rincewind": [...] qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law.''(aside: US copyright law is very simple: Disney owns everything. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]]) Reads like ''stealing'' to me and we shouldn't copy that behavior. However, we could just ask Paul Kidby for his permission to use his pictures (with an apropriate note) in the two Discworld Wikis. There are two pictures used in the '''design''' of the German wiki (not uploaded as wiki content) because we got his permission to use his pictures on our webpage some years ago. I didn't think that permission included uploading to a wiki hosted as part of our webpage. (But then wikis weren't invented back then.) --[[User:Death|Death]] 16:11, 20 July 2006 (CEST)
*** Agree with [[User:Death|Death]] here. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 14:51, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

----

*Is it possible to find exactly what area each neighbourhood encompasses? Can we make educated guesses and publish that information here on the Wiki? ie Like I have done with the two 'possible' names, Speedwell and Five-Ways. This information can always be changed in the future if [[Terry Pratchett|TP]] decides to tell us. Hopefully someone will find their real names in the books.

Help is certainly going to be needed to find out what the rest of the neighbourhoods are called and to what extent they cover. -- [[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 19:52, 17 July 2006 (CEST)

* I wish I had a ''Streets'' or a ''Mapp'', but no. The Shades on this map looks very large compared to the ''Night Watch'' map and some descriptions. Is there any support for the idea that The Shades sometimes refers to the whole old city and sometimes to a smaller area within (where even the Watch doesn't go?) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:15 EST 16 Aug 2006

** The Shades are fairly large, yes. I'm not getting my copy of the AM map out, but as this is based on that map I don't doubt the size of the Shades. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 21:32, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

Even within the Shades their are differences of outlook and opinion. Vimes' birthplace on Cockbill Street is technically part of the Shades, but in context represents an area where pride among the desperately poor outweighs tendency to illegality - no Cockbill Street person would get involved in crime for fear of being shamed in the eyes of the neighbours if found out. So we have a law-abiding part of the Shades, a cut above the older more evil and immoral streets to its hubwards? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:55, 16 January 2011 (CET)

==Ankh and Morpork==

One thing I have wonder is what part is concidered Ankh and what part is conidered Morpork. I think that this information would be useful if added to this article. My guess is that Mopork is the right part of the city on the map. But I'm not sure since Ankh and Mopork hasn't been mentioned much in the later books. –[[User:Jeltz|Jeltz]] 12:46, 19 July 2006 (CEST)
:Morpork is the part on the right side of the Ankh containing The Shades. --[[User:Death|Death]] 12:56, 19 July 2006 (CEST)

::Thanks. So the red part of the map where most of the action in the novels take place could simply be namned Morpork? But I don't think we know that for sure. –[[User:Jeltz|Jeltz]] 23:46, 19 July 2006 (CEST)

::The [[Book:The Discworld Companion|The Discworld Companion]] mentions '...proud Ankh, Turnwise of the river, and pestilent Morpork on the Widdershins side...' --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 00:54, 20 July 2006 (CEST)

::Ankh is the richer part, it's where Vimes lives with Sybil now. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 14:51, 16 August 2006 (CEST)

Like Buda and Pest, depending on what side of the river you're on? It's also been pointed out that London is also a twin city, although the inhabitants are less imaginative and just refer to Narff and Sarfff. Religious enforcers called taxi drivers will usually point out the exact boundaries, ie "I'm not going sarfff of the river at THIS time of night, squire".--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 15:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

==The Question Marks==

The one just to the right and below Dolly Sisters and the Wizards' Quarter. On the Mapp, and I think in one of the later Watch books, the great bare white streak is an area of cleared housing and general urban improvement caused by it having been Ground Zero for the Noble Dragon crashing to earth, having been bestd by Errol and blasted out of the sky by a sonic boom (which can't have done the building fabric much good, either). The note is that this area is awaiting development and is still effectively a bomb site, as a noble dragon crashing to earth cleared a LOT of ground. As you might expect, it's called "[[Dragon's Landing]]" or something like that.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 15:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Another thought occurs to me - from {{MAA}}, we can infer that a lot of the Clay Lane/Quarry Lane area in the "south-east" of the city - "east" of the Shades and the meat markets/abbatoirs - is now pretty much exclusively a Troll enclave. So "Trolltown" needs to be clearly indicated on the city map? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 10:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Around Goosegate and Attic Bee Street: no less than ''three'' hospitals are named in this relatively small zone. (This is common on Roundworld: for instance, no less than four formerly independent hospitals, with their infrastructure of nurses' homes, pharmacies, teaching schools and other supporting industries such as funeral directors, are clustered around the Oxford Street area of Manchester.) Since this appears to be evolving as the medical care zone of the city, why not identify it with the older English word for such facilities: "Spitals", or "Spitalfields"? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:55, 16 January 2011 (CET)

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned and I haven't noticed it: Could the regions be such as those on the Discworld Ankh-Morpork Boardgame? Would happily upload the relevant info if you think it would help. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

== New Ankh ==

There is a clear inference in the books that [[Harry King]]'s recycling facilities, which are noisome even by Ankh-Morpork standards and which require a large amount of free land, are situated both upwind and upriver of the old walled city. This makes them the first location outside the old walled city to regularly appear in the books.

A suggestion for their location is that these are situated Hubwards of the city, and are accessed via either Water Gate (for river-borne traffic) and Least Gate (for honey-carts and similar leaving by road. There is a reference somewhere to massive compost heaps situated close to the river where garden-minded citizens may fill a sack for tenpence.

A character called Gerald Leastways appears in {{NW}}. It is possible that he derives his name from a pedigree drawn in the Least Gate area of the city. Could we speculate - although this is only a supposition based on an inference - that where Pallant Street leaves the old walled city at Least Gate, when it enters New Ankh, it might well change its name to Least Way? (that is, the street and district on the other side of the wall from Least Gate.) Ankh-Morporkians being nothing if not prosaic, "Leastways" would then become a descriptive name for one born and brought up in the area.

This may become a template for all the city's main roads as they pass through the city wall - which at the time of writing has not been superceded by an even larger and longer city wall further out. (It is probably the case that Ankh-Morpork, like the European cities it is based on, has reached a stage where building walls around itself has become obselescent, having already outgrown at least two which are now swallowed up inside itself as growth becomes inexorable.)

We therefore might expect the continuation of Kicklebury Street as it passes through the Limping Gate to become, perhaps, Limping Street or Limping Way. Upper Broadway starts at the Un-named Gate: its continuation on the other side might be Sto Helit Way, or the Helitian Road (known to citizens as the Road to Hels?) Losing Street, inside the city, begins at the Onion Gate. Onion Road?

Pigsty Hill leads to the Shambling Gate - only right and proper, as this is the drovers' route from the Chalk Country to the Shambles, the slaughterhouse district. Therefore the continuation road from the gate is Drovers' Way? And given that drovers with large herds need to be able to stable them over night, especially if they arrive after the city gates are closed, this area of New Ankh might be called Droversfields?

Dimwell Street begins at Traitors' Gate. Upper Dimwell? New Dimwell Road?

Park Lane/Edgeway Road lead to the Rimward Gate. Rimwards Road?

King's Way/Dark Gate/King's Down/ Deosil Gate (in order from the river outwards) are the a recognised road for Quirm. If we use a little Quirmian and suggest the original name might have been ''Rue Des Rois"'', what about "Ruddyroy Street" as a local corruption?

The only caveat to the idea of city walls and fortifications becoming obselete and more expensive to build as the city gets larger and the line of wall longer (expensive to build, had to man, expensive to maintain and vulnerable to artillery) is that in the 17th and 18th centuries, many European cities adopted the new defensive philosophy of geometrically designed "star-forts" at strategic locations. These could safely be left unmanned and only garrisoned if there were real and pressing need. Those which needed a permanent garrison also served as useful barracks to keep the rough soldiery out of the way of citizens.

The principal castle of the Tump looks to be vulnerable and open to concerted attack from the north and west. What barbicans, skirting walls and other additional defences might have been built in to cover this weak spot - such as the star-forts of a later age?

What mediaeval city walls evolved into:- [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort]

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2014-12-28T11:07:54Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Hosting Funding */

'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''

<div class="usermessage">This is the page for current discussions. Archives can be found in [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]], [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]], [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]] and [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]] </div>

== de:Links to be deleted? ==
There are many dead "de:Links" in the wiki, e.g. in Hogfather: "de:Buch:Schweinsgalopp". Is there any hope or intention to fill them with life (again?), or are they deadwood, to be deleted if you are already working on an article and stumble on one of them?--[[User:EinFritz|EinFritz]] ([[User talk:EinFritz|talk]]) 08:47, 16 October 2013 (GMT)
:Leave them for now. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 11:52, 16 October 2013 (GMT)
::I'm still wondering why they can't be linked; theirs still work. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:25, 16 October 2013 (GMT)
::I fixed them: see below. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:05, 30 November 2013 (GMT)

==Security breach?==
There was just a strange edit by an unregistered user ‎at 10.203.74.26 in [[Talk:Nightingale Valley]].
How did that get in here? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:08, 10 November 2013 (GMT)

==Fallout from upgrade==
*Was the "{Edit]" button supposed to move from the right to hard against the section title? It's not visually appealing.
*The Edit Summary box is also funny.

:That was me, I opened permissions and was testing to see if i'd opened them too far. Which I had. All registered users should be able to create and edit pages now. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:35, 10 November 2013 (GMT)

Whew! Thought they'd found a new tactic, there. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:55, 10 November 2013 (GMT)

==feedback from user==
I've had a really interesting conversation with a first-time casual user of the wiki who came here (my reccomendation) to research background information for fanfic writing. The feedback runs:-

*''I looked at the Discworld wiki, and tried to use it to help Cheery buy her dress. I was not even able to find the Category: Ankh Morpork Businesses for a long time. Neither "Ankh-Morpork" nor "Locations" mention it.''

''And I had the AM businesses page up at one point earlier tonight when was I writing you but lost it and couldn't find it again when I knew the page existed! I tried to put "businesses" into search and went nowhere, even trying it several ways. I finally went clicking down the directory until I ran into "Stuff." It's frustrated me and made my little fic, "Cheery's First Date" not nearly as fun to write. It's not a very good fic, but I'm not sure I want to write another one unless I can get the site details straight. I can tell from reading that you've been a faithful contributor to the wiki since it began, AG/PROV, so I hope this isn't annoying. Or at least can decide to gloss over what I don't know. I have no idea where Frout's is. But neither does Pterry, it appears, so it's okay.''

I mean, I suspect the Categories "evolved organically" with the Wiki, as they contain a few inconsistencies of various sorts. but if a new user finds it frustratingly hard to navigate, is this typical experience for all visitors? should we look at categories and indexing and see if it can be made simpler? (Lots of work...) over to you...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:33, 21 November 2013 (GMT)
:I never thought of anyone ''starting'' from Categories, but apparently... 
:"Categories" has its own section on Main Page so it doesn't seem too hard to find, although it seems to me that "Portals" could use reworking, and Categories might be added as a Portal. "Tours" and both the "Reading suggestions" might be deleted to make room, Biography isn't a portal, just a page. Articles like Disambiguation Pages could be created to group related categories and ease searches. Any other portals? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:48, 21 November 2013 (GMT)
::See what you think of the "Categories" portal on the Main Page. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:20, 22 November 2013 (GMT)

==List of Pratchett characters==
Then, I'd like opinions on the major overhaul of the [[List of Pratchett characters]]. Apart from the mistakes and odd nomenclature that can be corrected, I'm not keen on the whole layout, mainly because it removes much of the alphabetical ordering and requires that you know which section to look in. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:46, 22 November 2013 (GMT)

I like it! I got to thinking about the feedback received on site accessibility, and it's probably important for us to realise that not every casual caller will find it user-friendly. The short-cuts and ways in that we know and use might well be not so obvious to newcomers, or to people wanting to visit for purposes of research and fact-finding - which, after all, is what a Wiki is ''for''. Every possible gateway portal should be viewed as a legitimate doorway, and I guess it's down to us to oil the hinges and put "Push" or "pull" on the correct sides. (Why do I feel a need to burst into opera here...) And signage on the walls...

Thanks! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 12:19, 22 November 2013 (GMT)
:Are you referring to the List of Prstchett characters, here? (Time for another archive, too...)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:31, 22 November 2013 (GMT)

==SNAFU?==
Oh gods! "Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:" is the specified namespace, but the Mended Drum is in "Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:". What to do? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:43, 23 November 2013 (GMT)

==de: links!==
Hah! I fixed the de interwiki links (me, coding and operational ignoramus)! 
Well, I say fixed, but there's a catch. They work, but to move to the sidebar where they belong they have to be on a line after another category. I wasted a lot of time separating them from the body of the article with colons when cutting and pasting them up would have been as easy. Who knew? This obviously wasn't the case in the old version; I wonder if there's another fix in the program somewhere? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:22, 24 November 2013 (GMT)

Found it. The trick here is just that the page has to be saved again (not even edited, but opened and saved at least). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:41, 24 November 2013 (GMT)

*I'm removing the few Cesky language links as I find them. I don't see any evidence that the Czech wiki still exists. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:56, 27 November 2013 (GMT)

==SPAM ALERT! User: Netterku, possible spammer==

Please check out User:Netterku, as I suspect he may be a spammer who has got through the net. Inept, as it's in Indonesian, which I speak as fluently as Vimes speaks Dwarfish (in fact, Vimes is native fluent compared to me). But interesting, in that the spamming sems to be arranged differently and not to the old well-known pattern. If we agree, and the user has not responded to my yellow card warning, shall we block? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 25 Nov 2013
:Let's hope their program hasn't learned the Qwestyons, but I guess a new list can be installed if necessary. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:45, 25 November 2013 (GMT)

just dealt with a second spammer who got in. But at least it's a trickle rather than a tsunami... AgProv, writing as..[[User:Vorpga|Vorpga]] ([[User talk:Vorpga|talk]]) 21:39, 26 November 2013 (GMT)

==Change of address?==
Funny...disc.osiris-web.com is no longer in service, but the wiki is available direct from lspace.org. I guess if you can read this you're not bothered, but old bookmarks may not work. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:33, 27 December 2013 (GMT)

:I cleaned up when I moved my DNS management to Amazon Route 53. I'll go ahead and reenable it. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:39, 27 December 2013 (GMT)

::Turns out it was a bad import. I've fixed the issue. It may take a few hours to propagate. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:56, 27 December 2013 (GMT)

==Browsing==
[[Special:PopularPages|PopularPages]] is always amusing, whether it's "why so many?" or "why so few?" 
[[Duke Harold]] is currently the least popular entry, despite [[User:AgProv|AgProv]]'s best effort, but there's little rhyme or reason. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:45, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

==Upgrade complaints==
*Was the "{Edit]" button supposed to move from the right to hard against the section title? It's not visually appealing.
*The Edit Summary box is also funny.
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

::I hadn't noticed since I don't normally use the LSpace skin. Looks like I'll have to make some style adjustments. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 00:06, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Those should be fixed now. I haven't been able to test in all browsers though. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Yep, fixed those...unfortunately I tried to change skins to have a look and all I got was a blank page. Since all I get is a blank page, I can't change it back either. Any suggestions? User:Old Dickens (in Mr Spuddy-Face disguise as --[[User:Aavatar|Aavatar]] ([[User talk:Aavatar|talk]]) 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)).

:Clear your browsers cache and cookies. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 12:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Need to update the UserMerge extension too. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that didn't help (I had the same problem in three browsers anyway). Aren't the preferences stored at your end? - Old Dickens, aka --[[User:Aavatar|Aavatar]] ([[User talk:Aavatar|talk]]) 23:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

: I have to go into the database to change another user's skin. You've now reverted to the default skin. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Whew! Thanks; best to be comfortable in your own skin... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 12:51, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

==Return of SPAM==
Here's the first piece of spam in a long time , from [[User:Bencongslebor]], and MERGE doesn't work. The page goes blank.

: The plugin which enables that hasn't been upgraded to support the new version of MediaWiki. As soon as it's updated I'll apply the update to this wiki. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 14:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

::Spoke too soon, the author has updated the plugin. I'll try and get it installed this week. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 14:27, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Not yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:00, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of them signing up but not leaving any droppings just now...odd. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

:They're not passing the email validation test. I need to find some time to perform another upgrade of the wiki software. A security update came out a couple weeks ago but I haven't had time to implement it yet. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Traditionally, though, these people don't even speak English, suggesting that their program has learned the answers to the Qwestions. Did you install the whole list? Should we write more? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

''{{Clicks fingers meaningfully, notes "merge" currently not functional, awaits moment to pounce and rend.}}'' [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Also notes tvtropes formatting does not work here...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:01, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

:Base upgrade complete. Still need to identify and fix issues with the default skin and extensions. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
:: Extensions Updated --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:: Just updated the list of questions. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

==Another SEARCH oddity==
Surely '''Vortis''', the jeweller, appears more than once here, and certainly in [[Here'n'now]], but a search doesn't produce any result. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

:A degree of confusion with aquiline villain [[Vorbis]]? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Ah. The apparent non-existence of "Vortis" is another problem. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:55, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

:Nothing I can do about the search issue right now. It's a built in part of the application and I dont have the time to modify it. Also, we apparently need a new set of questions for the spam filter. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 01:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
::Ay ay, cap'n. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

==Blocking==
Apparently we can use the Block function again? (...not that it ever did much good.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I prefer to use Merge and Delete, but I need to find out why that wasnt presented as an option. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

==Outage Notice==
"Amazon has started warning customers of its EC2 cloud computing platform that it's going to start rebooting their instances en masse over the next few days.

Not all EC2 instance types will need rebooting; the fast storage (HS1) and large memory (R3) virtual machines are unaffected. But the reboots will nonetheless be widespread, with all regions and all availability zones affected. Rebooting is due to start this evening and finish next Tuesday.

Amazon hasn't explained why the bulk reboot is needed, but a source speaking to ITNews has said that it's due to an embargoed flaw in the Xen hypervisor. That bug, XSA-108, is due to be publicly disclosed on October 1, by which time Amazon's reboot should be complete."

This will force the wiki down at some point but I haven't received notice yet of the exact time. ---[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]])
:"''due to an embargoed flaw in the Xen hypervisor''" - I'm pretty sure that means the servers are being taken over by alien forces. Anyway, we'll be here when its all over. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 21:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks for clearing that up. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

==New Premises==
Aaaaaand, we're back (if you know where to look)! '''Don't''' try to use the L-Space skin, however.
There be Dragons. --[[User:Aavatar|Aavatar]] ([[User talk:Aavatar|talk]]) 01:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

:The Dragons have been slain! --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The skin is back, but other things seem strange in this universe. There are new red links and things seem to be in different namespaces (initial impression; I haven't figured anything out yet). I see hours of engrossing activity re-writing the main page alone. 
And we still have the damned "&amp". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Trying to fix the new broken links to the portals on the main page quickly got too deep for me.
I can search and look at the [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Characters]] page, it's at [http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Discworld_%26_Pratchett_Wiki:Characters], and the links work, but it can't be edited and it turns into a red link when used. 
Mended Drum archives 1 and 2 seem to be gone. I have these myself from the great move, but how to reinstate them safely? The Discworld & Pratchett Wiki namespace obviously exists but it's not in the list of searchable namespaces; most of the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace seems to be missing. I need a Wizard. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

:Dont worry, there was a typo in the namespace configuration. See if it's fixed now. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Easy-peasy; oh, boy! Happy Guy Fawkes night! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

==Next problem...==
Oops. Now images don't work, in templates or separately, not even thumbnails in the gallery. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:52, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

:Don't worry they're all still there. I'll try and fix those links tonight. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 15:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
::What. me worry? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
:::Images loaded. Sorry, my household is the home of the plague right now so this took a while to get to. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 01:35, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
::The mills of the [[User:Osiris|god]] grind slowly, but exceeding fine. You da man! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

...but, [[User:AgProv|AgProv's]] syntax looks ok in [[Talk:Mayor of Quirm]], but it doesn't work. I tried it and the image works by itself, but not with the "thumb" instructions. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:50, 20 November 2014 (UTC) I tried a bunch: some files work, some with exactly the same format (File.jpg) don't. Size and date don't seem to matter. ??? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:16, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

==Spam control==
We seem to be back to the common IP address and the Delete button for vermin is gone. Can we only delete the droppings? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:41, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

==Hosting Funding==
I'm considering adding some simple ads from google to help defray the hosting costs. I honestly don't expect much return but a little bit helps. I'd like to hear the communities thoughts though. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 23:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
:I don't know how much money we're talking about, here. I guess two million hits on the front page alone could sell some ads, but how much that's worth or what's needed? The idea depresses me after all these years: I'd rather chip in myself if it could be done by contributions, but I couldn't come up with a lot. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::doesnt matter anyway, adsense said we dont meet content guidelines
:Content Guidelines?! Gods, I wonder who does. Meanwhile, as I type, I get this Security Alert: ''Revocation information for the security certificate for this site is not available. Do you want to proceed?''...erm... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
::There is no security certificate for this site. That only applies to https sites and this site is strictly http. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 14:27, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Just a thought, but maybe something like [http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/ easy fundraising] would help raise some money to cover hosting costs - it wouldn't even need people to donate directly. According to their website to be eligible 'You simply need to be based in the UK, have unselfish goals and good intentions'. Personally, having found this wiki so helpful I too would feel happy about making a donation, but sadly I doubt it could be much. Still, a small button at the side accepting donations might well help raise a bit of funding.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 01:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
:While we might fit in under "religious groups", there's the problem that we've never been based in the UK. It doesn't look promising. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:56, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
:: Oh. Didn't know. Perhaps theres something similar for whichever country this is based in. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 11:07, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum

2014-12-28T01:13:27Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Hosting Funding */

User talk:GallifreyanWitch

2014-12-24T20:04:19Z

GallifreyanWitch: /* Dating */

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

== Thoughts ==
=== Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari ===

<big><big>POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING</big></big>

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:
* Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
* Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
* Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
* Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Year (UC) !! Vetinari's Age !! Current affairs
|-
| 1939 or 1940 || Possible Year of Birth||
|-
| 1941 || 1/2 ||
|-
| 1942 || 2/3 ||
|-
| 1943 || 3/4 ||
|-
| 1944 || 4/5 ||
|-
| 1945 || 5/6 ||
|-
| 1946 || 6/7 ||
|-
| 1947 || 7/8 ||
|-
| 1948 || 8/9 ||
|-
| 1949 || 9/10 ||
|-
| 1950 || 10/11 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1951 || 11/12 || '''Joins the Guild of Assassins?'''
|-
| 1952 || 12/13 ||
|-
| 1953 || 13/14 ||
|-
| 1954 || 14/15 ||
|-
| 1955 || 15/16 ||
|-
| 1956 || 16/17 ||
|-
| '''1957''' || 17/18 || '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || '''Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.'''
|-
| || || '''Participates in the Glorious Revolution''' (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
|-
| || || Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
|-
| 1958 || 18/19 ||
|-
| 1959 || 19/20 ||
|-
| 1960 || 20/21 ||
|-
| 1961 || 21/22 ||
|-
| 1962 || 22/23 ||
|-
| 1963 || 23/24 ||
|-
| '''1964''' || 24/25 || '''''The Colour of Magic''''' and '''''The Light Fantastic'''''
|-
| || || Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
|-
| 1965 || 25/26 ||
|-
| 1966 || 26/27 || Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
|-
| || || ''Equal Rights''
|-
| 1967 || 27/28 || Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
|-
| || || Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
|-
| '''1968''' || 28/29 || '''Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, ''The Truth'')'''
|-
| || ||[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
|-
| 1969 || 29/30 || Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
|-
| || || Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
|-
| 1970 || 30/31 || Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
|-
| 1971 || 31/32 ||
|-
| 1972 || 32/33 ||
|-
| 1973 || 33/34 ||
|-
| '''1974''' || 34/35 || '''''Sorcery'''''
|-
| || || '''Definitely Patrician.'''
|-
| || || '''Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.'''
|-
| || ||'''Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.'''
|-
| 1975 || 35/36 ||
|-
| 1976 || 36/37 ||
|-
| 1977 || 37/38 ||
|-
| 1978 || 38/39 ||
|-
| 1979 || 39/40 ||
|-
| 1980 || 40/41 ||
|-
| 1981 || 41/42 ||
|-
| 1982 || 42/43 ||
|-
| 1983 || 43/44 ||
|-
| 1984 || 44/45 || Verence II of Lancre crowned
|-
| 1985 || 45/46 || '''''Guards! Guards!'''''
|-
| || || '''Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive'''
|-
| || || '''Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.'''
|-
| || || Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
|-
| || || '''Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary'''
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
|-
| || || Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
|-
| || || Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
|-
| || || ''Witches Abroad'' - Lillith deposed in Genua
|-
| || || '''''Moving Pictures'''''
|-
| || || Vetinari visits the Odeon
|-
| || || '''''Reaper Man'''''
|-
| || || '''Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting'''
|-
| 1986 || 46/47 || '''''Men At Arms'''''
|-
| || || '''Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.'''
|-
| || || ''' Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards''' [and slight limp for a short while?]
|-
| || || Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
|-
| || || Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
|-
| || ||Detritus and Angua join the Watch
|-
| || || '''''Interesting Times'''''
|-
| || || Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
|-
| || || '''''Soul Music'''''
|-
| || || '''Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)'''
|-
| || ||Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
|-
| 1987 || 47/48 || '''''Feet of Clay'''''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him'''
|-
| || || Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
|-
| || || Movement to free Golems starts
|-
| || || Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
|-
| || || ''Hogfather''
|-
| 1988 || 48/49 || '''''Jingo'''''
|-
| || || '''Leshp war with Klatch'''
|-
| || || '''Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.'''
|-
| || || '''Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before'''
|-
| || || Vimes created Duke of Ankh
|-
| || || 300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
|-
| 1989 || 49/50 || '''''The Fifth Elephant'''''
|-
| 1990 || 50/51 || '''''The Truth'''''
|-
| || || '''Wuffles aged 16'''
|-
| || || '''Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent'''
|-
| || || Later events of '''''Night Watch'''''
|-
| || || Birth of Young Sam Vimes
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || '''''Going Postal'''''
|-
| || || Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
|-
| 1991 || 51/52 || ''Monstrous Regiment''
|-
| || || Borogravia-Zlobenia War
|-
| || || '''''THUD!'''''
|-
| || || Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
|-
| || || '''Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.'''
|-
| 1992 || 52/53 ||
|-
| 1993 || 53/54 ||
|-
| 1994 || 54/55 ||
|-
| 1995 || 55/56 ||
|-
| 1996 || 56/57 || '''''Snuff'''''
|-
| 1997 || 57/58 ||
|-
| 1998 || 58/59 ||
|-
| 1999 || 59/60 ||
|-
| 2000 || 60/61 ||
|}

=== [[Patrician's Palace|The Patrician's Palace]] ===

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems.
For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in [[Guards! Guards!]]. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)?
Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved?
The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/
Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are:
[[Book:The_Science_of_Discworld_IV:_Judgment_Day|The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day]] - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229))
Guards! Guards!
Feet of Clay
Night Watch

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the [[Menagerie]] on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

[[File:Ankh-morpork 004.JPG]]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

[[File:Patricianspalace.PNG]]

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the [[Pictsie]] page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues
perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Normal Talk ==
==...using the page for its usual purpose==
Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. ([[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] disappeared after planting another little mystery in [[Mrs Beddowe's House]]. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face.
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

==Dating==
I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. ''However'', in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Make that