http://wiki.lspace.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=AgProv&feedformat=atomDiscworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T14:44:41ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.40.0http://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User_talk:AgProv&diff=30608User talk:AgProv2020-02-03T22:36:59Z<p>AgProv: /* CQ CQ CQ */</p>
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<div>It's not hard to export pages and import them into here. But I'd hold off, Sanity is supposed to be giving me a copy of the existing site this weekend. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:30, 2 October 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Back again! Check the "Delete" option in the drop-down from "Create" in the vandal's User page. It's quick and easy and removes the pest from the User list at the same time. It only lacks a knob on the end! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:13, 16 November 2012 (PST)<br />
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There's a little drop down arrow with extra options on the page. Delete, Move, Protect, & Watch. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:56, 8 December 2012 (PST)<br />
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Thanks guys! See what you miss if you don't stay alert? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 06:28, 9 December 2012 (PST)<br />
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==Strange templates==<br />
There. I think I fixed the Annotations section of the Book Data template so that it works instead of creating a new page with a stutter. Now if someone could make the Amazon cover look-up work...--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:59, 3 February 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Hi AgProv ==<br />
<br />
Hello AgProv! <br />
<br />
Thank you for your kind words. I take your point about potential spammistry so I've thrown a random thought up onto my user page. <br />
<br />
Thanks again for the warm welcome!<br />
<br />
Allan<br />
<br />
==What's new==<br />
Yo! You're back from Seattle! Feel free to comment on various changes to the infrastructure and the new ''creator'' permission. Sewage has been transpiring. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:51, 10 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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== ==<br />
Holy Mother of Nuggan! That must have been the biggest day ever. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:20, 17 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
It was a sense of acheivement. I also have an uneasy feeling that User Sharlee (7070) might have been legitimate, as he/she made a couple of insightful edits to one page. '''''(Deep sense of "whoops")''''' I may have deleted them in error. Is it possible to get a second opinion on this and restore them?[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:31, 17 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== ==<br />
"''friendly fire incident''": sure, blame it on the Americans! <br>--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:51, 21 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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Quite a few in the Falklands and Northern Ireland when there wasn't an American in sight.... at some level, does the Wiki store email addresses for users? A quick email from me to Aldibidable (and Sharlee) to explain what's happened and beg apology might be called for here... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:18, 21 June 2013 (GMT) more care is now being taken when blitzing spammers, although this is hardly an excuse...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:18, 21 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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No worries about the accidental deletion. I only managed one bit of spam killing as my aldi account anyhow. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 21:02, 23 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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Speaking of spam, the talk page for [[User_talk:DanaeBatt|this account]] was spam. Discount handbags indeed. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 18:08, 24 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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DanaeBatt: he/she/it is now not even a memory. Thank you for pointing it out! having now killed all the "B"'s in UserList, with the exception of BS5770 and Britarse, I'm onto the C's...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 18:49, 24 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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==A couple of things==<br />
<br />
First off the main page keeps getting vandalised. I have undone edits twice in the last 24 hours where it has been replaced with an ad for methods of getting 'free' xbox live points. Is there no way to protect the page somehow or is that not something this version of the wiki software will do?<br />
<br />
Also, I have spotted some redlinks for pages I wouldn't mind creating, but I can only seem to edit existing pages not add to blank ones, is this intentional? Forgive my newbie-ness - is there something I need to do to get access to this or do I need to get one of you guys to put some text in to enable editing like you did for my user page? [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 10:15, 26 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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What we've discovered - Old Dickens and me spotted this independently - is that there are two "special" spammer names that just cannot be killed, at present: they appear to have burrowed themselves neatly into the deeper programming of the Wiki and corrupted the database. these two user-names specifically target the Main Page and at present appear kill-protected - all we can do here, for now, is to keep restoring the original edit. I suspect this may be a useful clue to something deeper. I also discovered a third spam user who just keeps coming back with the same name, however often we detect, delete, and merge. Like a vampire, this one has returned from the grave three times. Funny what you find out when you're intensively slaying spammers and start noting exceptions and anomalies...I wish I had the know-how to explore this more deeply...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:13, 26 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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Well I don't know if I can help any, but I am a computer technician. What do you see? [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 20:34, 26 June 2013 (GMT) I don't know if you see what I see when you go to a userpage, but what I'm getting when I try to merge/delete certain users into "Anonymous" is this:<br />
<br />
==Database error==<br />
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:<br />
(SQL query hidden)<br />
from within function "DatabaseBase::update". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry '0-0-Main_Page' for key 'wl_user' (127.0.0.1:3307)".<br />
<br />
I have so far identified THREE spam names who return this error message and who all appear to still have active accounts. These are:-<br />
<br />
* Darrington07<br />
* Parent7kettle <br />
* Taiwan5kettle<br />
<br />
The "vampire" user who has so far returned from deletion three times was "Antoinette"<br />
<br />
O.K., so what I have gathered from looking at the documentation on the merge user tool is that this is caused by the spam user's watchlist. Would I be right in assuming that the Anonymous user you are merging them into is the one that you/the admins control? If so you need to log in as the Anonymous account, go in to the account's watchlist, edit raw watchlist and clear it. Then log back in as your administrator self and try merging/deleting the troublemakers again. That should obliterate them. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 00:39, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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Addendum, if I got this right, the error is caused by the user you are trying to merge having something in their watch list that is already in the watch list of your dummy deletion account which the database can't handle. It's not a serious hacking attempt fortunately. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 00:43, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
:OK, I feel like Homer Simpson, but anyway I'd suggest cutting and pasting the two previous sections to the [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum#Clever buggers|Mended Drum]] where I've started an overview of the security exceptions. [[Demarcation]], don't you know? . --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:41, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
:I have no problem with that. I hadn't noticed it was being discussed in there to be honest. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 01:45, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
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==A high rate of fire==<br />
A spammer every five seconds? My ISP isn't that fast - couldn't do it. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:36, 18 July 2013 (GMT) I did a little test. Ten seconds seems to be a good average for me. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:53, 18 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The technique I've arrived at is to open User List in "Special Pages", and go down it, right-clicking on every red name and clicking again on "Open In New Tab". (Of course, I also check the Active Users list to be sure we haven't had any new legitimate contributors there - any red names there that look legit, I'll open their contributions. If they're valid, I'll blue-list them with a welcome message on their user page. If not, they're zapped).<br />
<br />
When I've got around thirty-five new tabs set up - that seems to be the maximum number of open tabs my browser will allow me - I'll go through them form left to right. It's a simple three click process: hit "delete", wait for the screen to change, click to merge user to "anonymous", close tab, the next New user tab pops up automatically, repeat. As the relevant points to click on appear in exactly the same places on screen every time, my mouse-using hand is now trained to move quickly and accurately! <br />
<br />
Now and again I'll double-check any name that looks plausible or familiar and scope them out, but as often as not I'll blast the whole lot at a fairly fast kill-rate! Then refresh user list and begin again...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:08, 19 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
:Ah...not performance-enhancing drugs, then. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:19, 19 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
alas, no. One of the four fundamental Druidic forces applies - bloody-mindedness....and as it's now 01:23 GMT, I'm off to bed...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:20, 19 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
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All-Time High: during the sixty seconds of 22:12 GMT on Friday 19th July, I deleted 24 spam accounts... that's one every 2.5 seconds... I'd be really surprised if I bettered that...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 07:48, 20 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
and during the sixty seconds of 18:12 GMT on Saturday 27th July I killed 28... that's getting close to one every two seconds...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 18:37, 27 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
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== Kill the fatted calf; the Provigal returneth!==<br />
...and about time, too. I fear no one's been doing much work: fortunately Qwesty Capcha has eliminated the vandals, unfortunately very few new or old contributors have shown up. I've bee<br />
<br />
I'm pottering around dusting and polishing, but you haven't missed much. A new book's due though; that may provide a boost.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:15, 4 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
:The Cymric spelling confused me, there. I thought you referred to to your old Hugglestonian school, but I find Prifysgol Glyndŵr in the Welsh Wikipedia with an "i". "Pryf" translates as ''hornet''; I wondered why. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:15, 4 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
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Well.. you know you are bilingual when you can make speling mistakes in either language...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 19:38, 8 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
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==Spoilers==<br />
I '''can't''' read the damn book; it's not here yet! (mutter, grumble...) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:42, 9 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
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==Entirely irrelevant personal query==<br />
I'm curious to know what you've noticed of our Mayor, Rob Ford (I say "our", although I didn't get to vote against him, but we in the suburbs may be tarred with the same brush, as you may be thought of abroad as a Mancunian). We have heard of another neighbour of yours named Rob Ford who has had no end of trouble on his Twitter account as a result of the oaf's antics. It's not often our politics<br />
creates the excitement of British (never mind American) shenanigans. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:12, 17 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
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Born in a place called Etobicoke. How apt. Is "Etobicoke" a Native Canadian word for "place where crack cocaine may be procured"? The story made it to BBC news today! This guy... well, I try not to point the finger at people who are grossly obese. That's lazy thinking. But he ''looks'' like a corrupt politician. There's something about that glistening porcine self-satisfied look. We could perhaps commission fan-art here? This guy could stroll into the Discworld as [[Crispin Horsefly]] or another suitable associate of Reacher Gilt. I'm really surprised he's only 44. He looks a good 20 years older. I see his brother succeeded him in his city council ward. it gets better, doesn't it? That's the sort of thing you get in Tammany Hall. Or the British Labour Party. Wait, there's more! Alientating the Canadian-Italian voting community with some politically incorrect epithets... and he tops this with some back-handed compliments to those of "oriental" race... and basically says if you can't or won't get a car and persist in riding a bike in adulthood, why should we listen to you whining on about cycle lanes, you don't pay no road tax, so get off the god-damn road and if you get killed it's your own damn fault,you don't belong there. <br />
<br />
He really knows how to make friends and influence people, doesn't he? I begin to suspect some sort of chicanery and gerrymandering is the only thing keeping him in office. He represents a ward where there are a lot of immigrants, who may either not vote or do not want to go on an electoral roll for fear of being officially listed. Hmm. An insecure and transient population, the shady politician's asset. And of course a bit of judicious rabble-rousing to raise fears in good white folks - who are registered to vote - about brown-skinned immigrants. And on top of all this, allegations of prostitutes and improper sexual advances to Toronto municipal employees. Caught driving DUI in the USA - well, it was Florida, a state where right-wing conservatives kinda help each other out...<br />
<br />
And now.. admissions of "drunken stupors" in which he buys crack cocaine. <br />
<br />
"Independent" Progressive Conservative of Ontario - "progressive" probably meaning ultra-right wing libertarian? <br />
<br />
BTW, the BBC article on the news today mentioned something about him being a Christian lay minister? What church? I guess they're not pleased...<br />
<br />
MYSTERY SOLVED! I wasn't listening too carefully to BBC radio news and was conflating two stories. Just as the Ford story broke in the UK, there was a little local scandal about a Chief Executive of a major British bank - who was in fact also a previously-respected lay minister - of the ''Methodist'' church (nominally teetotal). Who was caught by police in a very intoxicated state attempting to procure crack cocaine. He has since admitted to a long-standing drugs and alcohol problem going back some years. If you join the dots, this predates the recession provoked by a banking collapse. He has admitted to being too habitually intoxicated to do his job properly. Other senior bankers are trying to deny having worked too closely with him. We really, really, need a Vetinari, a Concludium, and for preference a Guild of Assassins in this country. <br />
<br />
And the OTHER Rob Ford is a politics don at Manchester Uni. Ah well, it's material for an academic treatise...http://mancunion.com/2013/11/11/im-no-crack-mayor-says-manchesters-ford/<br />
<br />
==August 2014==<br />
I see the DWCON is right in your neighbourhood this summer. We'll want voluminous reports. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The Palace Hotel in the city centre, and I discover, fully subscribed even in February! But at least I'm now on the waiting list in case anyone drops out, and there may be open events for which one does not need to be a resident. There is also the possibility of somehow wangling my way in as a helper and assistant, for which I have made a case (the organisers are recruiting). We shall see... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:47, 16 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
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==Correct Ions==<br />
Now I see that you've bee using ''correctinos'' for months. I blame my aging eyes; my mind's ''fine'', really it is... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
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Hee-hee; try this: http://www.gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/ . They guessed that my native language<br />
was Welsh! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I started looking hard at words for missing leters or trasnpositnios due to too-fast typing. Then I realised when I wrote the edit reason I still managed to spell ''"correctinos"'' rather than ''"corrections"'', thus highlighting the reason why a single-letter change was necessary in the first place. I liked the resultant phrase so much it stuck and I carried on using it. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:05, 14 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
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The game clocked me as being Northern Irish, Southern Irish and then Scottish in descending order of probability and also considered if English wasn't my first language, I'd be Hungarian.... my hovercraft is indeed full of eels, evidently. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
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==The Long Series==<br />
Back on the amphetamines, I see. Well, it's a good thing someone is reading those. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I do have to admit that having read the three books of the series back-to-back, they're getting more interesting and entertaining. The first was a little bit "flat", but they've taken off a bit with Long War and Long Mars. There's an awful lot of "recycling" going on, with Discworld ideas given a more scientific and "realistic" treatment. Lots of ideas from the {{SOD1}} series creep in - look for the Crab civilisation in Book Three. Even [[Jacqueline Simpson]] gets a look-in - she's credited with ideas and original research. (on elves and kobolds). And the music! (just like {{SM}}...)[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 01:35, 17 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Damn! You mean I have to buy the other two? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
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==Cymraeg==<br />
"''Rwyf wedi prynu y llyfr hwn. Yr ydym yn trafod cyfieithiadau o Terry. Dylwn i ysgrifennu adolygiad. Rwy'n rhy ddiog ar hyn o bryd''." <BR><br />
That's easy for you to say... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Education==<br />
While you're back, see if you can provide any help to the prodigal [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]], who's<br />
trying to spread the good word among the heathen of [[Power Cable]] and vicinity (I already volunteered your services). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:16, 18 July 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==On Aceria==<br />
On the subject of the Atlas, The Great Outdoors seems to be the location for your Aceria. Aligning the map with hubward as "north", we can follow the route of the expelled Quirmian settlers rimward to Genua, bringing their chaudrons and fiddles with them. On the other side we have New Nothing, a settlement suggesting old Scandiwegian excursions to North America. In between there's a lot of outdoors generally ignored by the rest of the world. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
Excellent! That's pretty much where i'd have looked, although at first I was looking at the lands between the Hub and Whale Bay, seeing a sort of "Hudson's Bay" resonance there. But then, that's marked as Ecalpon and Gonim and therefore "taken"...And I see the Slake Plains even have "Mormons" on the salt flats (Utah). hold me back! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:40, 15 April 2016 (UTC)<br />
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==Hiding?==<br />
You're incognito in e-mail. Is this intentional or oversight? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:47, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Interesting. I've just checked in Preferences, and all the buttons to enable emailing appear to be ticked. I did refrain from resetting Language Preference to "cy", though - the default language for the Wiki is English, and I may as well stick with that. Have I missed anything I should be ticking to enable emails? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 16:34, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
:The wiki e-mail seemed to be trying, but messages bounce both through the wiki and directly. I thought you'd probably changed providers. I'll try again... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:49, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
:OK. Now it seems to work except that there's a glitch in the wikimail if you check "send me a copy". Still don't know why the original direct mail didn't work. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:04, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
Seems to be working now. Replies sent. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:56, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
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== Snuff annotation page, see if I can put it here ==<br />
<br />
[AgProv, this keeps getting blocked by the spam filter. Can't see why; perhaps it will work on your talk page since I can't put it directly under your comments on the Snuff annotation page.]<br />
<br />
:AgProv, I'm just reading your analysis above about historical lesbianism in the 20th century -- didn't know that about the decades after the world wars. Thanks for the analysis. <br />
<br />
:My quibbly nit to pick is that this isn't the first clear presentation of gay women: Monstrous Regiment included Tonker and Lofty. ("The world is really opening up for you now, isn't it Oliver," Maledict[a] said to Polly upon making the connection.) Now granted, Tonker and Lofty are together due to the dreadful algebra of necessity rather than social choice, but they're there -- major characters who are gay and female. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 16:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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::And so it worked here. The spam filter rejected identical text on the other page. Oh well... :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 16:44, 27 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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==MMMM==<br />
A humble subject for the four-thousandth article, but whaddyagonnado? Now I recommend a large whisky in a dim, quiet room. Bring the bottle, actually. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 30 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Toblerone is fairly horrible, isn't it? Not the greatest Swiss chocolate.... I have here a bottle of single-malt Laphraoig from the Islands. Fancy a glass? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
:Thanks anyway. Thy need is greater than mine, and I'm more of a Speyside man. (I wish I could afford it, of course.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:23, 30 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
So where are 1100 empty pages and how did they get there? I tried to create one: it didn't work. (I'd rather improve, organise or reduce a thousand old ones, anyway.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:23, 1 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
go to Main Page, then click on "wanted but still empty pages" in the first paragraph. this opens up a list currently 1175 items long. Most of these redlinks open onto empty pages which have links and references in other articles - established by previous editors setting up a link to be filled in later, either by themselves or somebody else with the time, knowledge and inclination. What complicates things is that several hundred items appearing on the list are in fact active articles - but on the German language Wiki, so I'm not sure what they're doing here as "empty pages". <br />
<br />
Havinf trawled through it, my guess is that several hundred of the residue could usefully be completed, in time, as legitimate and worthwhile article pages. I've done a fair deal of that in the last week, and you cleared about thirty in one fell swoop by deleting that Czech-language article. (the list was nearly 1400 items long!) <br />
<br />
Others are mis-spellings, misdirects and duplicates - I've deleted a few of these, usually by editing the parent article that generated the redlink. <br />
<br />
Some are so tangential they're really not worth doing as independent pages in their own right: in these cases I've either done away with altogether, or else incorporated a brief mention of the character, place, concept or item on a suitable "overview" page. <br />
<br />
And some are just so weird or irrelevant, I'm not sure how they got there at all. <br />
<br />
Take a look and see what you think? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:34, 1 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
:Oh dear. I fixed a couple, with some difficulty, but I don't think many of them can be found at all. Why blue de: links? It wants [[User:Osiris|the god of resurrection]]; perhaps he could filter all links with only one request? The list isn't much use in that state. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Standard operating procedure:<br />
*Under "Welcome to the..." (first paragraph) click on "wanted but still empty pages".<br />
*Open list, scroll down until you find something that sparks interest.<br />
*Open empty page. Click on "What links here" to find the article where the item is referenced to see if this adds further information or sparks a neuron of memory. Keep cross-referencing the links or even (in extremis, I have been known to do this now and again) go to the original book to look it up!<br />
* If there really isn't anything that can be written, return to linked article and edit link, either to remove it or to point to a more relevant page. <br />
*If it can be done, write article. Tidy and add categories. <br />
* repeat up to 1175 times.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:07, 2 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
* return to list.<br />
<br />
==CQ CQ CQ==<br />
I've had no response to an email since the last time I mentioned the problem in May 2016 (see above). How can I forward quite an interesting letter I got from Somerset? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:56, 27 July 2019 (UTC)<BR><br />
Speaking of Zombies, he's back! But what about that email address? If it needs to be secret, you could delete it in Preferences. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:29, 3 February 2020 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Apoloiges. just been out of circulation for a while and my email inbox was being swamped with crap - force deleted a lot of stuff without looking. so if it's possible for you to resend? interest and curiosity have been piqued. Thanks and nice to touch base again!</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User_talk:AgProv&diff=30607User talk:AgProv2020-02-03T22:35:17Z<p>AgProv: /* CQ CQ CQ */</p>
<hr />
<div>It's not hard to export pages and import them into here. But I'd hold off, Sanity is supposed to be giving me a copy of the existing site this weekend. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:30, 2 October 2012 (PDT)<br />
<br />
Back again! Check the "Delete" option in the drop-down from "Create" in the vandal's User page. It's quick and easy and removes the pest from the User list at the same time. It only lacks a knob on the end! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:13, 16 November 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
There's a little drop down arrow with extra options on the page. Delete, Move, Protect, & Watch. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:56, 8 December 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
Thanks guys! See what you miss if you don't stay alert? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 06:28, 9 December 2012 (PST)<br />
<br />
==Strange templates==<br />
There. I think I fixed the Annotations section of the Book Data template so that it works instead of creating a new page with a stutter. Now if someone could make the Amazon cover look-up work...--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:59, 3 February 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Hi AgProv ==<br />
<br />
Hello AgProv! <br />
<br />
Thank you for your kind words. I take your point about potential spammistry so I've thrown a random thought up onto my user page. <br />
<br />
Thanks again for the warm welcome!<br />
<br />
Allan<br />
<br />
==What's new==<br />
Yo! You're back from Seattle! Feel free to comment on various changes to the infrastructure and the new ''creator'' permission. Sewage has been transpiring. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:51, 10 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== ==<br />
Holy Mother of Nuggan! That must have been the biggest day ever. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:20, 17 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
It was a sense of acheivement. I also have an uneasy feeling that User Sharlee (7070) might have been legitimate, as he/she made a couple of insightful edits to one page. '''''(Deep sense of "whoops")''''' I may have deleted them in error. Is it possible to get a second opinion on this and restore them?[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:31, 17 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== ==<br />
"''friendly fire incident''": sure, blame it on the Americans! <br>--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:51, 21 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Quite a few in the Falklands and Northern Ireland when there wasn't an American in sight.... at some level, does the Wiki store email addresses for users? A quick email from me to Aldibidable (and Sharlee) to explain what's happened and beg apology might be called for here... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:18, 21 June 2013 (GMT) more care is now being taken when blitzing spammers, although this is hardly an excuse...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:18, 21 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
No worries about the accidental deletion. I only managed one bit of spam killing as my aldi account anyhow. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 21:02, 23 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Speaking of spam, the talk page for [[User_talk:DanaeBatt|this account]] was spam. Discount handbags indeed. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 18:08, 24 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
DanaeBatt: he/she/it is now not even a memory. Thank you for pointing it out! having now killed all the "B"'s in UserList, with the exception of BS5770 and Britarse, I'm onto the C's...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 18:49, 24 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==A couple of things==<br />
<br />
First off the main page keeps getting vandalised. I have undone edits twice in the last 24 hours where it has been replaced with an ad for methods of getting 'free' xbox live points. Is there no way to protect the page somehow or is that not something this version of the wiki software will do?<br />
<br />
Also, I have spotted some redlinks for pages I wouldn't mind creating, but I can only seem to edit existing pages not add to blank ones, is this intentional? Forgive my newbie-ness - is there something I need to do to get access to this or do I need to get one of you guys to put some text in to enable editing like you did for my user page? [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 10:15, 26 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
What we've discovered - Old Dickens and me spotted this independently - is that there are two "special" spammer names that just cannot be killed, at present: they appear to have burrowed themselves neatly into the deeper programming of the Wiki and corrupted the database. these two user-names specifically target the Main Page and at present appear kill-protected - all we can do here, for now, is to keep restoring the original edit. I suspect this may be a useful clue to something deeper. I also discovered a third spam user who just keeps coming back with the same name, however often we detect, delete, and merge. Like a vampire, this one has returned from the grave three times. Funny what you find out when you're intensively slaying spammers and start noting exceptions and anomalies...I wish I had the know-how to explore this more deeply...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:13, 26 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Well I don't know if I can help any, but I am a computer technician. What do you see? [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 20:34, 26 June 2013 (GMT) I don't know if you see what I see when you go to a userpage, but what I'm getting when I try to merge/delete certain users into "Anonymous" is this:<br />
<br />
==Database error==<br />
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:<br />
(SQL query hidden)<br />
from within function "DatabaseBase::update". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry '0-0-Main_Page' for key 'wl_user' (127.0.0.1:3307)".<br />
<br />
I have so far identified THREE spam names who return this error message and who all appear to still have active accounts. These are:-<br />
<br />
* Darrington07<br />
* Parent7kettle <br />
* Taiwan5kettle<br />
<br />
The "vampire" user who has so far returned from deletion three times was "Antoinette"<br />
<br />
O.K., so what I have gathered from looking at the documentation on the merge user tool is that this is caused by the spam user's watchlist. Would I be right in assuming that the Anonymous user you are merging them into is the one that you/the admins control? If so you need to log in as the Anonymous account, go in to the account's watchlist, edit raw watchlist and clear it. Then log back in as your administrator self and try merging/deleting the troublemakers again. That should obliterate them. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 00:39, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Addendum, if I got this right, the error is caused by the user you are trying to merge having something in their watch list that is already in the watch list of your dummy deletion account which the database can't handle. It's not a serious hacking attempt fortunately. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 00:43, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
:OK, I feel like Homer Simpson, but anyway I'd suggest cutting and pasting the two previous sections to the [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum#Clever buggers|Mended Drum]] where I've started an overview of the security exceptions. [[Demarcation]], don't you know? . --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:41, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
:I have no problem with that. I hadn't noticed it was being discussed in there to be honest. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 01:45, 27 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==A high rate of fire==<br />
A spammer every five seconds? My ISP isn't that fast - couldn't do it. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:36, 18 July 2013 (GMT) I did a little test. Ten seconds seems to be a good average for me. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:53, 18 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The technique I've arrived at is to open User List in "Special Pages", and go down it, right-clicking on every red name and clicking again on "Open In New Tab". (Of course, I also check the Active Users list to be sure we haven't had any new legitimate contributors there - any red names there that look legit, I'll open their contributions. If they're valid, I'll blue-list them with a welcome message on their user page. If not, they're zapped).<br />
<br />
When I've got around thirty-five new tabs set up - that seems to be the maximum number of open tabs my browser will allow me - I'll go through them form left to right. It's a simple three click process: hit "delete", wait for the screen to change, click to merge user to "anonymous", close tab, the next New user tab pops up automatically, repeat. As the relevant points to click on appear in exactly the same places on screen every time, my mouse-using hand is now trained to move quickly and accurately! <br />
<br />
Now and again I'll double-check any name that looks plausible or familiar and scope them out, but as often as not I'll blast the whole lot at a fairly fast kill-rate! Then refresh user list and begin again...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:08, 19 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
:Ah...not performance-enhancing drugs, then. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:19, 19 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
alas, no. One of the four fundamental Druidic forces applies - bloody-mindedness....and as it's now 01:23 GMT, I'm off to bed...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:20, 19 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
All-Time High: during the sixty seconds of 22:12 GMT on Friday 19th July, I deleted 24 spam accounts... that's one every 2.5 seconds... I'd be really surprised if I bettered that...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 07:48, 20 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
and during the sixty seconds of 18:12 GMT on Saturday 27th July I killed 28... that's getting close to one every two seconds...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 18:37, 27 July 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== Kill the fatted calf; the Provigal returneth!==<br />
...and about time, too. I fear no one's been doing much work: fortunately Qwesty Capcha has eliminated the vandals, unfortunately very few new or old contributors have shown up. I've bee<br />
<br />
I'm pottering around dusting and polishing, but you haven't missed much. A new book's due though; that may provide a boost.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:15, 4 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
:The Cymric spelling confused me, there. I thought you referred to to your old Hugglestonian school, but I find Prifysgol Glyndŵr in the Welsh Wikipedia with an "i". "Pryf" translates as ''hornet''; I wondered why. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:15, 4 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Well.. you know you are bilingual when you can make speling mistakes in either language...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 19:38, 8 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==Spoilers==<br />
I '''can't''' read the damn book; it's not here yet! (mutter, grumble...) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:42, 9 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==Entirely irrelevant personal query==<br />
I'm curious to know what you've noticed of our Mayor, Rob Ford (I say "our", although I didn't get to vote against him, but we in the suburbs may be tarred with the same brush, as you may be thought of abroad as a Mancunian). We have heard of another neighbour of yours named Rob Ford who has had no end of trouble on his Twitter account as a result of the oaf's antics. It's not often our politics<br />
creates the excitement of British (never mind American) shenanigans. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:12, 17 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Born in a place called Etobicoke. How apt. Is "Etobicoke" a Native Canadian word for "place where crack cocaine may be procured"? The story made it to BBC news today! This guy... well, I try not to point the finger at people who are grossly obese. That's lazy thinking. But he ''looks'' like a corrupt politician. There's something about that glistening porcine self-satisfied look. We could perhaps commission fan-art here? This guy could stroll into the Discworld as [[Crispin Horsefly]] or another suitable associate of Reacher Gilt. I'm really surprised he's only 44. He looks a good 20 years older. I see his brother succeeded him in his city council ward. it gets better, doesn't it? That's the sort of thing you get in Tammany Hall. Or the British Labour Party. Wait, there's more! Alientating the Canadian-Italian voting community with some politically incorrect epithets... and he tops this with some back-handed compliments to those of "oriental" race... and basically says if you can't or won't get a car and persist in riding a bike in adulthood, why should we listen to you whining on about cycle lanes, you don't pay no road tax, so get off the god-damn road and if you get killed it's your own damn fault,you don't belong there. <br />
<br />
He really knows how to make friends and influence people, doesn't he? I begin to suspect some sort of chicanery and gerrymandering is the only thing keeping him in office. He represents a ward where there are a lot of immigrants, who may either not vote or do not want to go on an electoral roll for fear of being officially listed. Hmm. An insecure and transient population, the shady politician's asset. And of course a bit of judicious rabble-rousing to raise fears in good white folks - who are registered to vote - about brown-skinned immigrants. And on top of all this, allegations of prostitutes and improper sexual advances to Toronto municipal employees. Caught driving DUI in the USA - well, it was Florida, a state where right-wing conservatives kinda help each other out...<br />
<br />
And now.. admissions of "drunken stupors" in which he buys crack cocaine. <br />
<br />
"Independent" Progressive Conservative of Ontario - "progressive" probably meaning ultra-right wing libertarian? <br />
<br />
BTW, the BBC article on the news today mentioned something about him being a Christian lay minister? What church? I guess they're not pleased...<br />
<br />
MYSTERY SOLVED! I wasn't listening too carefully to BBC radio news and was conflating two stories. Just as the Ford story broke in the UK, there was a little local scandal about a Chief Executive of a major British bank - who was in fact also a previously-respected lay minister - of the ''Methodist'' church (nominally teetotal). Who was caught by police in a very intoxicated state attempting to procure crack cocaine. He has since admitted to a long-standing drugs and alcohol problem going back some years. If you join the dots, this predates the recession provoked by a banking collapse. He has admitted to being too habitually intoxicated to do his job properly. Other senior bankers are trying to deny having worked too closely with him. We really, really, need a Vetinari, a Concludium, and for preference a Guild of Assassins in this country. <br />
<br />
And the OTHER Rob Ford is a politics don at Manchester Uni. Ah well, it's material for an academic treatise...http://mancunion.com/2013/11/11/im-no-crack-mayor-says-manchesters-ford/<br />
<br />
==August 2014==<br />
I see the DWCON is right in your neighbourhood this summer. We'll want voluminous reports. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The Palace Hotel in the city centre, and I discover, fully subscribed even in February! But at least I'm now on the waiting list in case anyone drops out, and there may be open events for which one does not need to be a resident. There is also the possibility of somehow wangling my way in as a helper and assistant, for which I have made a case (the organisers are recruiting). We shall see... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:47, 16 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Correct Ions==<br />
Now I see that you've bee using ''correctinos'' for months. I blame my aging eyes; my mind's ''fine'', really it is... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Hee-hee; try this: http://www.gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/ . They guessed that my native language<br />
was Welsh! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I started looking hard at words for missing leters or trasnpositnios due to too-fast typing. Then I realised when I wrote the edit reason I still managed to spell ''"correctinos"'' rather than ''"corrections"'', thus highlighting the reason why a single-letter change was necessary in the first place. I liked the resultant phrase so much it stuck and I carried on using it. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:05, 14 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The game clocked me as being Northern Irish, Southern Irish and then Scottish in descending order of probability and also considered if English wasn't my first language, I'd be Hungarian.... my hovercraft is indeed full of eels, evidently. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==The Long Series==<br />
Back on the amphetamines, I see. Well, it's a good thing someone is reading those. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I do have to admit that having read the three books of the series back-to-back, they're getting more interesting and entertaining. The first was a little bit "flat", but they've taken off a bit with Long War and Long Mars. There's an awful lot of "recycling" going on, with Discworld ideas given a more scientific and "realistic" treatment. Lots of ideas from the {{SOD1}} series creep in - look for the Crab civilisation in Book Three. Even [[Jacqueline Simpson]] gets a look-in - she's credited with ideas and original research. (on elves and kobolds). And the music! (just like {{SM}}...)[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 01:35, 17 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Damn! You mean I have to buy the other two? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Cymraeg==<br />
"''Rwyf wedi prynu y llyfr hwn. Yr ydym yn trafod cyfieithiadau o Terry. Dylwn i ysgrifennu adolygiad. Rwy'n rhy ddiog ar hyn o bryd''." <BR><br />
That's easy for you to say... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Education==<br />
While you're back, see if you can provide any help to the prodigal [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]], who's<br />
trying to spread the good word among the heathen of [[Power Cable]] and vicinity (I already volunteered your services). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:16, 18 July 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==On Aceria==<br />
On the subject of the Atlas, The Great Outdoors seems to be the location for your Aceria. Aligning the map with hubward as "north", we can follow the route of the expelled Quirmian settlers rimward to Genua, bringing their chaudrons and fiddles with them. On the other side we have New Nothing, a settlement suggesting old Scandiwegian excursions to North America. In between there's a lot of outdoors generally ignored by the rest of the world. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
Excellent! That's pretty much where i'd have looked, although at first I was looking at the lands between the Hub and Whale Bay, seeing a sort of "Hudson's Bay" resonance there. But then, that's marked as Ecalpon and Gonim and therefore "taken"...And I see the Slake Plains even have "Mormons" on the salt flats (Utah). hold me back! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:40, 15 April 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Hiding?==<br />
You're incognito in e-mail. Is this intentional or oversight? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:47, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Interesting. I've just checked in Preferences, and all the buttons to enable emailing appear to be ticked. I did refrain from resetting Language Preference to "cy", though - the default language for the Wiki is English, and I may as well stick with that. Have I missed anything I should be ticking to enable emails? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 16:34, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
:The wiki e-mail seemed to be trying, but messages bounce both through the wiki and directly. I thought you'd probably changed providers. I'll try again... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:49, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
:OK. Now it seems to work except that there's a glitch in the wikimail if you check "send me a copy". Still don't know why the original direct mail didn't work. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:04, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
Seems to be working now. Replies sent. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:56, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Snuff annotation page, see if I can put it here ==<br />
<br />
[AgProv, this keeps getting blocked by the spam filter. Can't see why; perhaps it will work on your talk page since I can't put it directly under your comments on the Snuff annotation page.]<br />
<br />
:AgProv, I'm just reading your analysis above about historical lesbianism in the 20th century -- didn't know that about the decades after the world wars. Thanks for the analysis. <br />
<br />
:My quibbly nit to pick is that this isn't the first clear presentation of gay women: Monstrous Regiment included Tonker and Lofty. ("The world is really opening up for you now, isn't it Oliver," Maledict[a] said to Polly upon making the connection.) Now granted, Tonker and Lofty are together due to the dreadful algebra of necessity rather than social choice, but they're there -- major characters who are gay and female. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 16:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And so it worked here. The spam filter rejected identical text on the other page. Oh well... :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 16:44, 27 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==MMMM==<br />
A humble subject for the four-thousandth article, but whaddyagonnado? Now I recommend a large whisky in a dim, quiet room. Bring the bottle, actually. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 30 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Toblerone is fairly horrible, isn't it? Not the greatest Swiss chocolate.... I have here a bottle of single-malt Laphraoig from the Islands. Fancy a glass? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
:Thanks anyway. Thy need is greater than mine, and I'm more of a Speyside man. (I wish I could afford it, of course.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:23, 30 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />
So where are 1100 empty pages and how did they get there? I tried to create one: it didn't work. (I'd rather improve, organise or reduce a thousand old ones, anyway.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:23, 1 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
go to Main Page, then click on "wanted but still empty pages" in the first paragraph. this opens up a list currently 1175 items long. Most of these redlinks open onto empty pages which have links and references in other articles - established by previous editors setting up a link to be filled in later, either by themselves or somebody else with the time, knowledge and inclination. What complicates things is that several hundred items appearing on the list are in fact active articles - but on the German language Wiki, so I'm not sure what they're doing here as "empty pages". <br />
<br />
Havinf trawled through it, my guess is that several hundred of the residue could usefully be completed, in time, as legitimate and worthwhile article pages. I've done a fair deal of that in the last week, and you cleared about thirty in one fell swoop by deleting that Czech-language article. (the list was nearly 1400 items long!) <br />
<br />
Others are mis-spellings, misdirects and duplicates - I've deleted a few of these, usually by editing the parent article that generated the redlink. <br />
<br />
Some are so tangential they're really not worth doing as independent pages in their own right: in these cases I've either done away with altogether, or else incorporated a brief mention of the character, place, concept or item on a suitable "overview" page. <br />
<br />
And some are just so weird or irrelevant, I'm not sure how they got there at all. <br />
<br />
Take a look and see what you think? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:34, 1 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
:Oh dear. I fixed a couple, with some difficulty, but I don't think many of them can be found at all. Why blue de: links? It wants [[User:Osiris|the god of resurrection]]; perhaps he could filter all links with only one request? The list isn't much use in that state. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Standard operating procedure:<br />
*Under "Welcome to the..." (first paragraph) click on "wanted but still empty pages".<br />
*Open list, scroll down until you find something that sparks interest.<br />
*Open empty page. Click on "What links here" to find the article where the item is referenced to see if this adds further information or sparks a neuron of memory. Keep cross-referencing the links or even (in extremis, I have been known to do this now and again) go to the original book to look it up!<br />
* If there really isn't anything that can be written, return to linked article and edit link, either to remove it or to point to a more relevant page. <br />
*If it can be done, write article. Tidy and add categories. <br />
* repeat up to 1175 times.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:07, 2 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
* return to list.<br />
<br />
==CQ CQ CQ==<br />
I've had no response to an email since the last time I mentioned the problem in May 2016 (see above). How can I forward quite an interesting letter I got from Somerset? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:56, 27 July 2019 (UTC)<BR><br />
Speaking of Zombies, he's back! But what about that email address? If it needs to be secret, you could delete it in Preferences. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:29, 3 February 2020 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Apoloiges. just out of circulation for a while and my ermail inbox was being swamped with crap - force depeted a lot of stuff without looking ao if it's possible for you to resed? Thanks and nice to touvh base again!</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Barrack_Farm_Campsite&diff=30605Barrack Farm Campsite2020-02-03T22:27:45Z<p>AgProv: Getting the hang of things again</p>
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<div>This, in context, is an otherwise unremarkable field in the vicinity of [[Ohulan Cutash]], where an enterprising local farmer offers accomodation to hikers and explorers needing a base from which to explore the [[Ramtops]]. The advertising blurb says "bring your own tent and a spade to dig your own latrine." no doubt the rates are reasonable... <br />
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[[Category:Locations]]<br />
[[Category:Discworld geography]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Chocolate_Museum&diff=30604Chocolate Museum2020-02-03T22:18:33Z<p>AgProv: Getting the hang of it again after a long absence. By the way, hello</p>
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<div>situated on Vodorny square in the thriving multi-cultural and multi-ethnic city of [[Bonk]], the Chocolate Museum celebrates, well, chocolate in all its many and varied forms. Or at least, those known and recognised in [[Überwald]]. the advertising boasts <br />
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A wonderful collection of artefacts including chocolate kettles, a lifesized chocolate soldier, chocolate armour, chocolate roses amd a definitive selection of chocolate buttons of all sizes and shapes including toggles, flats, wheels, studs, high tops, filigrees and frogs. The chocolate fountain in the basement may be booked in advance for childrens' parties. (N.B. - no vampires.)<br />
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The reference to "chocolate armour" sounds as if this is an exercise in glorious futility, until the visitor realises this is a place where [[Dwarf Chocolate]] is prized. Dwarf Chocolate has much in commin with [[Dwarf Bread]] and makes equally formidable armaments. It is just possible it has worthwhile properties as armour too. <br />
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[[Category:Locations]]<br />
[[Category:Discworld geography]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Reading_suggestions&diff=30603Reading suggestions2020-02-03T20:47:45Z<p>AgProv: the "real" Fresh Start Club</p>
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<div>A question that regularly pops up is: ''I'm enjoying Pratchett, what other books are there I could possibly enjoy?''. This page is here to help you. If you like Pratchett, these books are recommended by the fans.<br />
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*For the more graphically-oriented, see also [[Webcomic and Graphic Novel Suggestions]].<br />
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=={{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}}==<br />
A former scriptwriter for ''Doctor Who'', Ben has branched out into writing the ''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_London_(novel)| Rivers of London]'' fantasy series. (Retitled ''Midnight Riot'' in the USA). Peter Grant is a newly-graduated police constable in London. He is less than enchanted to be assigned to a department dealing with records and data-entry, and feels being labelled as a uniformed admin clerk has killed his police career before it has even begun. Then he meets Inspector Nightingale, who he discovers runs a department that the Met reluctantly accepts it has to have, but is less than generally thrilled to admit to and which it regards as an anachronistic embarrassment in this day and age. Grant finds himself re-assigned to The Folly. And becomes a policeman walking a really weird beat - dealing with things of magic, folklore and more-than-myth which are still there in London and need to be policed. He discovers in a city with two thousand years of history, some things are inevitable, and come with the turf. He becomes an apprentice wizard and learns magic is still there. And magical crime needs magical policemen. The higher echelons of the Met and British government are resigned to this and accept there needs to be such a Force. Peter's adventures in the magical underbelly of London are described with black humour and a lot of absurd moments. <br />
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Just to make it clear where he gets his inspiration from, Ben dedicates at least one of the books (in which elves ands unicorns figure) to Sir Terry Pratchett.<br />
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* {{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Piers Anthony|Piers Anthony}}==<br />
{{wp|Xanth|Xanth}} series. Xanth is a very punny fantasy world. Piers Anthony also writes the "Terry Pratchett is fast, funny, and going places. Try him!" blurb found on many of Terry's books.<br />
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Xanth is probably best thought of as the ''Chronicles of Narnia'' played as a ''Carry On'' film. <br />
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I personally have found Anthony more corny than funny, with a very robotic, formulaic, writing style and a very dirty mind, even for purported "kids'" books. The humor is far sillier and more lowbrow. -[[User:Cidolfas|Cidolfas]]<br />
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Piers Anthony's other series (eg, {{wp|Incarnations_of_Immortality|''Incarnations of Immortality''}} and {{wp|Apprentice_Adept|''Apprentice Adept''}}) are not humorous, and are not similar to Terry's works. At best, the ''Incarnations'' series revolves around the idea that anthropomorphic personalities may "retire" from their jobs and return to the real world as they choose, and may select and train a successor. Anthony's Fate, for instance, takes it a step further and plays with the idea that this anthropomorphic personality might well run down a family dynasty, the female members of which each adopt one of the three faces of the classic Greek Fate. Death, in Anthony's world, is not so much a person as a job description. But this is only superficially similar to Death and Time each being a family business on the Discworld. <br />
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"I tried reading ''A Spell for Chameleon'' back in 1986 and threw it across the room after three chapters. I tried again in 2007 and lasted for five chapters. Just can't do it". This illustrates the idea that Xanth, while a tour-de-farce of the imagination, can in some readers evoke a reaction similar to that of Susan Sto Helit when she contemplates dancing across the rooftops with a cheeky cheery chimney sweep. Susan would see nothing wrong in a spoonful of sugar, but gallons of cloying syrup might well provoke a vomiting reflex. Xanth, with its heavy archness, is best approached when in a mood of whimsy and minimal critical function. In this frame of mind, it is not unpleasant, but too much syrup can kill tastebuds. The concept of the Adult Secret involves a perceived Adult Conspiracy to keep children in the dark about sexual matters for as long as possible.<br />
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Re-reading Piers Anthony lately - not just Xanth but more mainline novels - I also felt v. uneasy about Piers A's occasional lapses into fascination with the physical development of pubescent girls. In one of the ''Incarnations'' books, for instance, he has an eleven year old girl strip naked while an older relative has a private inner reverie about the attractive shape of her body. It isn't pornographic, and the plot that calls for it isn't too contrived, but it's written in enough loving detail to make me feel uneasy and voyeuristic about reading it. And this isn't exactly an isolated occurrence in his books, ref. an interest in pre-teen girls...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 11:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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As a forensic psychologist, I'm writing further to what AgProv has written on the Piers Anthony sexual storyline with the 11 year old child. Frankly, Anthony's writing verges on unlawful pedophilia writings and I am amazed that a mainstream publisher would actually give credence to Anthony's perverted and sick fantasies involving children that are truly DISTURBING. He is like a dirty old man leering over a legal minor in the kind of graphic and sick sexual detail that makes my hair stand on end. Let's be clear - this kind of pedophilia-type "prose" would be condemned almost anywhere, if it wasn't dressed up as 'literature'. Piers Anthony is way out of the league of Terry Pratchett, and shouldn't even be compared. He is not even a poor imitation. I would welcome what others have to say, but for me, Xanth far from being a Chronicles of Narnia, is a poorly-written tripe. What bothers me most is how Piers Anthony writes such plainly disturbing pedophilia sexual accounts involving a minor, which is typical pedophile behavior both pre- and post-action. This should be wholeheartedly condemned by all responsible adults... --[[User:Jongerman|Jongerman]] 09:11, 29 January 2011 (EST)<br />
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Further details about PA's approach to sexual content ''[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAppeal here]''. No editorialising, judge for yourself. <br />
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And while the purpose of this entry isn't to try the man, but to point out he HAS written some eminently readable sci-fi and fantasy ('''''Prosthro Plus'''''. about an Earth dentist abducted into Space and having to get up to speed with alien oral hygiene ''very quickly'', is hilarious and recommended), it is perhaps germane to consider a "quest" book Anthony wrote in the Xanth series. It becomes of extreme importance for the questing party to get a true answer to a mystery which gives the novel its name - '''''The Color of Her Panties'''''. In which female knickers pertaining to younger ladies are discussed and described at length. - --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 19:59, 12 May 2011 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Piers_Anthony|Piers Anthony}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kelley Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}}==<br />
Author of a series of books concerning how members of magical and Undead races have had to "go underground" to survive in the modern USA. '''''"Men of the Otherworld"''''' is about a young Werewolf growing up in his Pack and learning how to behave so as to fit into human society. He is taught who he can eat, when he can eat them, about Pack dynamics and politics, and how not to stand out at school (eating the class guinea pig is a great big no-no).<br />
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In '''''"No Humans Involved"''''', the location is a Haunted House TV show. In the UK these are shot in green light in an allegedly haunted house while it is cooling from the day in the wee small hours of the morning. Therefore there are a lot of creaks and drips for an ex-childrens' TV presenter and a camp scouse "psychic" to get excited about. <br />
In Kelley Armstrong's USA, what happens when a ''real'' psychic, in fact a trained and hereditary Necromancer, joins the presenting team on such a show...<br />
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Horror done with wicked humour. She has also written the ''Nadia Stafford'' trilogy: about a woman who has the skills, resolve, and methodical ability to plan and avoid ''over-confidence'' that makes her into somebody who could walk into the Guild of Assassins and be instantly welcomed as part of the Sorority. <br />
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Reccomendation by --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Kelley_Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Asprin|Robert Asprin}}==<br />
Author of the hilarious {{wp|Mythadventures|''Mythadventures''}} series of novels, featuring a young magician, his pet dragon, a tough-but-lovable demon friend, a sexy trollop assassin, her hairy troll brother, a couple of mafia hitmen, a moll, and more.<br />
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* {{wp|Robert_Asprin|Robert Asprin}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Josef Assad|Josef Assad}}==<br />
Released his first novel [http://www.archive.org/details/JosefAssad_TheBanjoPlayersMustDie ''The Banjo Players Must Die''] under a free Creative Commons license. Reading like a misanthropic Terry Pratchett, it is a dystopian and self-referential history of how Judgment Day came about, for very small values of 'came about'.<br />
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* {{wp|Josef_Assad|Josef Assad}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Clive Barker|Clive Barker}}==<br />
Clive Barker is a fantasy writer known for painting amazing watercolors to accompany his writing. Some of his works include the award winning series '''[[Wikipedia:Abarat|Abarat]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Imajica|Imajica]]''' and '''The Damnation Game'''. The book ''Abarat'' and its sequels tell the story of Candy Quakenbush, a teenage girl who gets pulled into a strange archipelago called The Abarat. The Abarat consists of twenty five islands, each one a different hour of the day, and one island that is time out of time. The series centers around the conflict between the islands of day and the islands of night. While ''Abarat'' and other books by Clive Barker are not a funny as Pratchett's they more then make up for it in oddness and the insanity of the worlds and characters.<br />
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* {{wp|Clive_Barker|Clive Barker}} on Wikipedia<br />
* Clive Barker's website: [http://www.clivebarker.info/]<br />
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=={{wp|James Bibby|James Bibby}}==<br />
The author of ''Ronan the Barbarian'' and its two sequels, all of which fit perfectly in the genre of comic fantasy. Much like Pratchett's earlier novels (although admittedly, much more ''adult''-oriented), the novel plays on the clichéd fantasy genre, but also includes genuinely interesting and likable characters. The book may be hard to find -- as it was only published in 1995, and once more in 1996 -- but definitely worth the trouble, being close-to the funniest author I've had the pleasure of reading. - [[User:Quoth|Quoth]]<br />
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* {{wp|James_Bibby|James Bibby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|S.G. Browne|S.G. Browne}}==<br />
S.G. Browne (Scott Browne) is an American author of blackly comic novels. So far there are ten of them, and a recurring theme is Zombies. Not the shambling revenants of fiction and film. Browne's vision is more rounded and bleakly funny than that. his debut novel ''Breathers: A Zombie's Lament'' deals with those unfortuante souls in the USA who are fated to return to worldly existence, occupying the bodies they thought they had left behind, in the modern USA. Browne begins with the idea that there are only two ways a Zombie can go after undeath kicks in. they can become homeless derilects - who really looks at a homeless person on the street? They are guaranteed invisibility. Or else they can live in California. Even then the Resurrected face hostility, persecution and lack of understanding from the Breathers - normal living people. Andy Warner is one such. He got up and staggered away from the car crash that killed his wife only to discover the awful truth - he was now part of a despised underclass perceived as fair game for sadistic cruelty and denied civil rights. He even joins a mutual support group for the Undead, presided over by a naive idealist who was killed trying to resolve a marital disagreement between two of her therapy patients. Most of the zombies who attend agree that they only attend because they feel sorry for Helen. They are resigned to a life of slowly disintegrating and falling into rotten decay, as well as avoiding drunken frat members who have seen "Dawn of the Dead" once too often. Andy decides to become an Undead Rights activist. And then they meet Ray, who introduces them to the miracle food, which he describes as "venison"... Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]])<br />
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* {{wp|S.G. Browne|S.G. Browne}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Susanna Clarke|Susanna Clarke}}==<br />
The author(ess?) of ''Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell''. This is an enormous book, written as an alternate history set in 19th-century England around the time of the Napoleonic Wars. It is based on the premise that magic once existed in England and has returned with two men: Gilbert Norrell and Jonathan Strange. Centering on the relationship between these two men, the novel investigates the nature of "Englishness" and the boundary between reason and madness. It has been described as a fantasy novel, an alternate history, and an historical novel. The narrative draws on various Romantic literary traditions, such as the comedy of manners, the Gothic tale, and the Byronic hero. The novel's language is a pastiche of 19th-century writing styles, such as those of Jane Austen and Charles Dickens. Clarke describes the supernatural with mundane details. Neil Gaiman, no less, described it as "unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the last 70 years". Look it up on Wikipedia - the way Bloomsbury pushed its publication is jaw-dropping - and even more so when you know it was her first novel! Recommended by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Susanna_Clarke|Susanna Clarke}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}}==<br />
The author of the novel {{wp|Ready Player One|''Ready Player One''}}. A story set in a dystopia future that is so bleak that humanity collectively lives through the OASIS, a full immersion computer game, where the games creator has left his huge fortune to whoever can find his hidden 'Easter Egg.' A great novel for fans of sci-fi and humour similar to Terry Pratchett, he's even mentioned a couple of times. Recommended by [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] 17:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC).<br />
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*{{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Eoin Colfer|Eoin Colfer}}==<br />
Eoin (pronounced "Owen") Colfer has come up with another world not too dissimilar to ours, but this time it's our world as we know it interfacing with the world of the Lower Elements: fairies, trolls (even thicker than TP's!), goblins, dwarves and the like. It even has a reason why the word Leprechaun exists: it comes from LEP Recon &ndash; the reconnaissance and recovery side of the Lower Elements Police. They are nominally childrens' books, but none the worse for that. So, essentially, is ''The Hobbit'' (see also comments for Diana Wynne Jones). The books centre around one "Artemis Fowl" - a twelve-year-old criminal mastermind. Swallow that, and the books are delightful. There is a large dollop of Pratchett-esque humour: witness why dwarves are such good diggers!!!! --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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'''Breaking News:''' Eoin Colfer has been selected to complete a largely unstarted sixth volume of [[Douglas Adams]]' h2g2 series:-<br />
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/17/douglasadams] The resultant book has now been released under the title of '''''And Another Thing....''''' I'm reading it. It's good! --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC).<br />
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He's pretty darn good. And the Artemis Fowl timeline is essentially a budget version of the Disc's: as convoluted as you can make it in seven books. --[[User:Dragon4|Dragon4]] ([[User talk:Dragon4|talk]]) 21:16, 13 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
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* {{wp|Eoin_Colfer|Eoin Colfer}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}}==<br />
Written in 2004, Conlon's autobiography '''Blue Blood''' came too late for it to have directly influenced most of the Watch books. Conlon is the third generation of his family to have served in the New York Police Department, following his grandfather and father. In 560 pages, he relates many accounts of the events likely to happen to an NYPD patrolman in the course of his duties. These can be horrifying, amusing, or just plain weird by turns. Many of them, such as the possibly rabid domestic cat that could make [[Greebo]] look like a placid neuteree, could have been scripted for the Watch to deal with. The everyday frustrations of police work, such as the bureaucracy, the chore of report-writing, political interference from above, and the personality types of his fellow cops, could all be background for a Watch novel. Among many other little details of police life, conlon also has an interesting take on the whole grey area between legitimate "perks" and outright bribe-taking. He also describes his grandfather with love and affection, a beat cop who Fred Colon would have hailed as a long-lost brother. Conlon does for the NYPD what Joseph Wambaugh (a known influence on the Watch) does for the LAPD on the other coast. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}}==<br />
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Author of a very funny and at the same time extremely erudite series set in the Ancient Rome of Vespasian, about an informer (something like a private detective) by the name of Marcus Didius Falco, an Aventine guttersnipe who, having fallen in love with a senator's daughter, the spirited, independent-minded Helena, sets out to better himself socially and financially. Ms Davis takes a light-and-dark, and entertainingly cynical, approach to the seedy realities of day-to-day life and politics in Vespasian's Rome, and has Marcus and Helena involved in a string of mysteries as they accept jobs from everyone from jealous spouses to the emperor himself. A spin-off series is set in a slightly later time when Falco has prudently retired from investigating, citing a need to stay away from the attentions of a paranoid and despotic new Emperor who he investigated when he was merely a Prince, and has incriminating evidence against. The focus of the series now moves to his adopted daughter Flavia Albia, who has learnt well from her father and become a private detective herself. Very well written and highly addictive.<br />
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* {{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diane Duane|Diane Duane }}==<br />
Again, another writer of YA books, but very ''very'' good ones. Her {{wp|Young Wizards|''Young Wizards''}} series, starting off with "So You Want to be a Wizard", explores what ''really'' happens when you sign up to be a wizard, eg: travelling to alternate dimensions with friendly, ''sentient'' micro-stars, inviting alien foreign exchange students to stay the planet, and helping whales perform ancient rituals underneath the sea to prevent the earth from cracking like an egg. I could go on, but I think a quote from TVTropes sums up the series perfectly: "Infamous in its fandom for a tendency to grab you by the heart and squeeze" --[[User:Varriount|Varriount]]<br />
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* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Duane Diane Duane] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jasper Fforde|Jasper Fforde}}==<br />
Author of the Thursday Next books which started with ''The Eyre Affair.''<br />
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Perhaps the closest thing to the Pratchett theme of story-driven reality, but start with ''The Eyre Affair''; we were pretty disappointed with ''Something Rotten'' at our house.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]]<br />
:I'll go with that - ''Something Rotten'' was pretty rotten, but the four '''Thursday Next''' books are excellent. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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Fforde is very apt at twisting the narrative conventions, and his humour is very Pratchett-like indeed. I also recommend the Nursery Rhyme series, starting with The ''Big Over Easy'', starring Marlowe-like detective Jack Spratt. --Abie, 25 May 2010.<br />
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His books are very good: The Last Dragonslayer books are hilarious, and the first one especially has quite a clever premise. One of his latest books had a review along the lines of 'Watch out Terry Pratchett,' on it, so that should give you some idea...--[[User:AnnieBudgie|AnnieBudgie]] ([[User talk:AnnieBudgie|talk]]) 11:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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Indeed, the [[Terry Pratchett|Creator]] himself said of ''The Eyre Affair'': "Ingenious. I shall watch Jasper Fforde nervously."<br />
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* {{wp|Jasper_Fforde|Jasper Fforde}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}}==<br />
Fraser was cited by Terry Pratchett as one of five authors whose books he would buy immediately on publication. His best-known works are the ''Flashman'' series (the cowardly but lucky Harry Flashman has many points of similarity with Rincewind) and the [[Daft Wullie|''McAuslan'']] series (whose Gordon Highlanders are [[Book:The Wee Free Men/Annotations|Roundworld Nac Mac Feegle]].) Fraser's books are usually scrupulously accurate history with a few fictitious characters inserted, and include copious footnotes and endnotes.<br />
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While the accepted Discworld referent for Flashman is usually taken to be Rincewind, Flashman is also a bluff, genial, con-man whose whole life is predicated on persuading people to accept he is something he is not. He pulls some almightily audacious bluffs in his career, and on one occasion, his wholly reasonable tendency towards self-preservation (which could uncharitably be described as cowardice) is subverted by a chemical substance which his lover of the moment assures him is a nice relaxing tonic. This enables him to fight and lead a battle without any fear at all and in fact to avert a Russian invasion of India whilst British attention is focused on the Crimea. A similar thing happens to Moist von Lipwig in {{RS}}...<br />
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* {{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Neil Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}}==<br />
Co-author of {{GO}}, so an easy choice. Pratchett fans seem to prefer ''Neverwhere'' and ''American Gods''. One of the latest novels is ''Anansi Boys''. {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Gaiman}} is known for his ability to create fascinating pantheons - if you're at all interested in comics, the ''Sandman'' series (which rightfully catapulted Gaiman to the fame he enjoys today) is one of the best ever written. His perky-goth Death is the best anyone's ever done with the character after Pratchett.<br />
Terry himself says that his novel, ''Coraline'', "...has the delicate horror of the finest fairy tales, and is a masterpiece."<br />
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Neil was a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]].<br />
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Recommended by [[User:Sanity|Sanity]].<br />
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* {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Craig Shaw Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}}==<br />
''Ebenezum'' and ''Wuntvor'' series are quite humorous, though the latter tends to drag a bit.<br />
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* {{wp|Craig_Shaw_Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}}==<br />
Mary Gentle's masterwork ''Ash: A Secret History'' must be recommended here as one of those books that lingers in the mind and fires neurons into new and different arrangements. There is certainly humour here: most obviously in the Rabelaisian adventures of a mediaeval mercenary company, hiring itself out to the highest bidder and finding laughter where it can in, a mediaeval landscape straight out of ''Monty Python and the Holy Grail''. There is also a deeper, rather black, humour of a more satirical kind, as the book deals with deeper and more profound issues of time and history and the way we perceive the passage of both. There are two interleaved stories here: one deals with the adventures of the mercenary company of the Lion, commanded by the warrior-woman Ash. The second story takes place in our own time, and deals with a historian trying to make sense of the legend of Ash, who starts to discover that the historical certainties of the past are slipping and changing around him wherever he looks. There can only be ''one'' past, right? Dead wrong. His suspicions are confirmed when archaeologist colleagues start to unearth artefacts relating to a past that by all rights should never have happened, and which start to prove the established history books are utterly dead wrong. <br />
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History is changing. All the indications point to the trigger point being somewhere in the late 1400's and somehow, Ash the warrior captain is intimately involved. Something happened in or around the year 1476 to completely alter the course of history - and belatedly, the late 1990's are changing to conform to that time-rift. The sequence of events in the late 1400's very nearly destroyed the world and ''something'' moved to correct it, to rewrite history into the form in which we knew it. Until the history professor started looking into the life of Ash and pulling together the random shreds that remained, out of place and time, of that secret history...<br />
<br />
As well as being a thrilling fantasy/sci-fi adventure, Ash is also a satire on the practice and teaching of history, which (as Vetinari and the History Monks know) is neither fixed nor objective. Indeed, it offers insight into how the History Monks might operate, were they to exist on Roundworld, to restitch time and history after, say, a Sourcerer or a Glass Clock nearly blew it into smithereens. It vividly describes what people might notice, what would be observed, during a time-slip of this nature, and what loose ends would be left flapping afterwards that not even a Lu-Tze could tidy away. It even suggests a mechanism, which has to do with pyramids, and suggests that some VERY strange things happened in the latter 1400's in known history that are strange and anomalous... <br />
<br />
Did TP read this book before, say, writing {{TOT}}? Ash was published in 1999, ten years after TP wrote {{S}}, but definitely released before {{TOT}} (published 2001). It's a very tempting thought... oh, and there are golems in this book. Like and unlike to those of the Discworld. <br />
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In a far lighter vein, Mary Gentle has also written '''''Grunts!''''', an account of the Eternal War between Good and Evil, as seen through the jaundiced eyes of those expendable foot-soldiers of the dark and sword-fodder for Heroes, the Orcs. Both repulsive and oddly sympathetic at the same time, the Orcs discover a trans-dimensional dragon whose hoard includes an entire United States Marine Corps armoury. <br />
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Equipped with high-tech weapons, the Orcs then see about carving out a corner of the fantasy world they can call theirs.<br />
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As Mary Gentle, along with Neil Gaiman, is a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]] to whom an early Discworld novel is dedicated (the HPLHFC consists of members of the new wave of British sci-fi/fantasy authors), then it would appear reasonably certain that TP is aware of her books. There are fairly unmistakable references to '''''Grunts''''' in the pages of {{UA}}, which given the subject matter would be even more remarkable by their absence. <br />
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Much recommended! <br />
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Both books recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}}==<br />
Alan Gordon (born 1959) is the author of several mysteries, the first of which is based on the characters from William Shakespeare's '''''Twelfth Night'''''. He writes about jesters as advisers to the king, who actually make up a super-secret spy ring that try to keep peace and control the leaders of different countries. The Fool's Guild of these novels is portrayed as a mockery to the church, and they refer to Jesus Christ as "Their Saviour, the First Fool".<br />
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Alan Gordon began writing his novels about fools and jesters as a supra-national spy ring in 1999. This is exactly the same idea TP came up with a year or two earlier to explain the survival of the otherwise increasingly irrelevant Fools' and Clowns' Guild into the modern era - that the Guild's graduates go everywhere, end up in some very high places, and periodically report back to Doctor Whiteface. Making him both very rich and very powerful. <br />
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Is it possible AG got the basic idea for his seven Fools' Guild novels from Pratchett? I hope to track down at least one Alan Gordon novel today, read it, and report back here, as the similarities to Pratchett's Fools' Guild are just so obvious...<br />
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Just finished reading ''A Death in the Venetian Quarter'', about Byzantine plots in old Constantinople. The jokes are funnier - although in some places have a desperate Prachettian cod-mediaeval ring to them - the jesters, Fools and troubadours (ref ({{TLH}}) are happier and enjoy their vocation, and there is a Guild HQ which assigns both surface tasks (''"you are to proceed to Constantinople where you will be resident Fool to the Empress and the Princesses of the royal house of Byzantium"'') and hidden, clandestine, ones (''"while you are there you will assist and take a leading role in deposing the current Emperor, who is a drooling inbred dolt and not the man we need to keep out the Pope's crusaders on one side and the Turks on the other"'').<br />
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Fools serve both leaders in a war and can cross the lines freely to interchange information and updates, as well as acting as informal diplomats and heralds. This was apparently so in mediaeval times, as most people didn't take them seriously. (In Gordon's world, they also have useful Assassin skills, although outside the world of [[sloshi]], Lord Downey might have a demarcation issue with Doctor Whiteface.)<br />
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Reccomended!<br />
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* {{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Green|Michael Green}}==<br />
While perhaps a little bit dated now, Mike Green's series of comic "how-not-to-do-it" guides, dating from the 1950's and 1960's, are masterpieces of a certain sort of British humour. The ''Art of Coarse...'' books are based on the premise that only a precious few, a stellar minority, of us can ever be genuinely good and gifted at any given sporting or leisure pursuit. The rest of us... well, we are fated to be only Coarse practitioners, spear-carriers and extras in the theatre of life. Green illustrates this fact of essential glorious mediocrity over a series of books, dealing with topics as wide and varied as rugby football, sailing, golf, sex, and amateur dramatics. A Coarse Sailor is defined as one who, in extremis, forgets all nautical language, and shouts "For God's sake, turn left!" ''The Art of Coarse Acting'' develops the theme of am-dram in a manner that Vittoler's strolling players would recognise, and indeed there is a lengthy discourse on why Shakespeare's clowns and fools are so abjectly unfunny, ''however'' you say the lines. This may be familar to readers of Pratchett, although there is no certainty that he has read these books. I would not be surprised, though! A cast of recurring characters, including Green's totally loathsome friend Askew, help carry the stories, all drawn from his real-life experience. (Although Green was better at rugby than he claims - he turned out, if only once, for the Leicester first fifteen, which is akin to playing for a premiership soccer side.) The series was continued by Spike Jones, although his books are nowhere near as good as Green's. <br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Green|Michael Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Simon R. Green|Simon R. Green}}==<br />
For something a little darker, try the ''Nightside'' series by Simon R. Green. Imagine Neil Gaiman's ''Neverwhere'' tossed in a blender with the noir detective template and every bit of myth, fantasy and sci-fi you 've ever seen or read and you'll get the delicious smoothie that is Nightside. Set in a secret city-within-a-city at the heart of London, follow John Taylor, a hard-nose private-eye as he sorts out cases both horrifying and fantastic.<br />
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Green's definitely a name-dropper, and references tons of stories and myths, but his own characters and plots are original and fascinating, and utterly steeped in darkness. (Seriously... This guy's darker than Neil gets sometimes...) But it's all tied together with subtle English wit in the (almost obligatory to the noir genre) first-person narrative. (I've even heard a review with a favorable comparison to Terry, so there! Proof!) It's at least an M rating, but a heartily recommended read.<br />
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* {{wp|Simon_R._Green|Simon R. Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Shea|Robert Shea}} and {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} (Honorary #23)==<br />
A cautionary note: Shea and Wilson are rightly famed, in alternative circles, for the '''''Illuminatus!''''' series of novels. The trilogy is a joyously anarchic and irreverent romp through the whole scope of the occult, politics, conspiracy theory, secret societies, not-so-secret societies, et c, and sends up many genres of writing including the police procedural, horror, fantasy, political polemic (Ayn Rand gets a kicking), et c. <br />
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The novice approaching ''Illuminatus!'' for the first time should not try to understand what's going on, as that way lieth doom. It's like trying to appreciate opera ''and'' understand the lyrics. On a first read, just see it as a series of loosely connected episodes but don't try too hard to comprehend the relationship between them. Just accept as a unifying theme that unless something is done to stop it, the Eschaton is about to be Immanetized (ie, the world is about to end in a manner loosely reminiscent of {{GO}}. Hell, there's even a [[Kraken|Leviathan]] as well as some unpretty denizens of Earth's [[Dungeon Dimensions]]). <br />
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You get characters like the cynical street policeman who's seen too much; the hippies who really ARE about to be made streetwise (man) whether they want to be or not; the occupants of a submarine (which for some reason is painted bright yellow), whose mission is to prevent a war starting -initially out of a dispute over ownership of a [[Leshp|small, hitherto unregarded, island]]; the arch-villain Putney Drake, who controls all crime in the USA but has decided he wants to find his angel and go straight; the arch-manipulator Hagbard Celine who saves the world but has an agenda all of his own; 0023, the secret agent Britain is not proud of, and who gets all the weird X-files-like assignments that Bond sneers at; and a cast of eldrich supernatural entities, who are partly or wholly not human. Oh, and there are lots of Justified, Illuminated and Elucidated secret societies, with their own passwords and doorway ritual, administered by Brother Gatekeepers... <br />
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(As an aside. Flawed criminal mastermind Putney ''Drake'', who controls all organised crime in the USA but still wants more. Compare to Eoin Colfer's Artemis ''Fowl''?) <br />
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James Joyce is referenced many times and indeed even enters the book as a character at one point. This has to be said, as the structure of the book owes something to Joyce, the episodes stepping in and out of linear time and causal order. Therefore it's not an easy book to read but it rewards time, attention and frequent re-reading. <br />
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It's also very, very, funny. <br />
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I can guarantee you will never see the Reverend Billy Graham in quite the same light again after the manner of his cameo appearance! (Indeed, if the book has any conventional political stance, it can be discerned by the way the Republican/Religious Right Middle-American world-view is remorselessly sent up).<br />
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Slipping in under the radar, and done with humour, is a lot of interesting philosophical stuff. For instance, what is the nature of money? (Ref. {{MM}}). We blithely refer to political affiliation as being left-wing, right-wing, anarchist, communist, et c, but what do these convenient labels ''really'' mean? Does the conspiracy theory or the cock-up theory govern human history, or a mixture of both, and at bottom is there really a difference? What is conspiracy theory? Do you have to be paranoid to believe it exists? Is there any validity to magic, occult, and psychic thought and practice? Can one Leader really exert a difference? What is the mystical all-importance of the number 23, and all its associations, like the letter "W"? Did the events of ''The Lord of the Rings'' really happen, making Tolkien not so much an author as an observer? <br />
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This trilogy is believed to have influenced Terry Pratchett - there are just too many allusions and associations in the Discworld books. Recommended!<br />
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Shea and Wilson went on to write a second trilogy, '''''The Universe Next Door''''', that develops Illuminatus themes and ideas while being true to the original. This deals a lot with quantum physics and the multiple-worlds model of the multiverse, whilst remaining extremely funny.<br />
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Possibly far more accessible as novels, while still being in the spirit of ''Illuminatus!'', are the books Shea and Wilson wrote solo: '''''The Historical Illuminatus''''' trilogy, by Wilson, charts the life of Neapolitan wunderkind Sigismundo Celine in the latter part of the eighteenth century. There's sound history, intriguing discussions on the origins of Freemasonry, the decline of Catholicism, the Occult underground in Europe, why revolutions happen (lilac may or may not be included), and the ''true'' nature of scholarly footnotes at the bottom of the page. (they're a separate rogue novel, a kind of parasitic literary form trying to break into the reality of the main text) A jolly good story with believable characters, not without humour. Sigismundo Celine even invents a theoretically working steam locomotive - but evidently Naples and Paris are not the right orchards for this idea to blossom into steam-engine time, as he is derided and laughed out of university, much to his chagrin. <br />
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Shea wrote a series of novels where the themes of Illuminatus! are further explored, where West met East in the mediaeval crusades and the western world suddenly became too small for old orthodoxies. (''All Things Are Lights'' and ''Saracen!''). In a second series, the underlying themes of ''Illuminatus!'' are seen through the eyes and experiences of a Zen warrior-monk, in what on the surface of things is nothing more than a rip-roaring adventure story set in mediaeval Japan and Kublai Khan's China. ( ''Shiké: Last of the Zinja'' and ''Shiké: Last of the Dragons'')<br />
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Sadly, both authors are now deceased, having left their respective solo works unfinished, and their central characters hanging in limbo. (Although Robert Shea has placed many of his writings on his website, including completed and partially completed novels, so that they may be accessed for free). But - worth reading! Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Harry Harrison|Harry Harrison}}==<br />
Prodigious author of science-fiction, ranging from potboilers through more "serious" exploratory sci-fi works and counterfactual histories, to out-and-out science-fiction humour. <br />
Anyone who perceived the slightly tongue-in-cheek aspect of '''''Strata''''' and '''''Dark Side of the Sun''''' will appreciate the parodic quality of Harrison's '''''Bill, the Galactic Hero''''' series of comic sci-fi novels. These send up every aspect of the classic gung-ho shoot 'em up space operas, in which, generally, American domestic paranoia about those goddamn Commies was projected out into space and time, and gave all-American heroes the chance to stand and fight for those good ol' fashioned values and Mom's apple pie. (Is it a matter of time before the space enemy starts to manifest recognisable aspects of Middle Eastern culture?)<br />
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Harrison's funniest sci-fi comedies by far, though, are the nine or ten books of the '''''Stainless Steel Rat''''' series. In a future that has largely eliminated crime, Jim diGriz is one of the last crooks left in the galaxy. While he is not averse to the occasional bank robbery, he prefers other, largely non-confrontational and consensual, methods of separating people from their money. He is principled and ethical enough to absolutely refuse to kill in the line of business, and has a ball as he travels the galaxy, bilking, bunco-ing, cheating and generally con-man-ning in a thousand inventive ways. But one day he comes a cropper and is offered the choice of (i) having his mind re-programmed to remove all criminal tendencies; or (ii) working on the side of the angels, as a member of the Galactic "Special Corps", an elite unit of part-detectives, part-policemen, part special agents. Choosing to accept his Angel, in the form of the Machiavellian Special corps Director Inskipp, diGriz bites the bullet and reluctantly becomes poacher-turned-gamekeeper. His first assignment is to track down and arrest the beautiful and deadly Angelina, a woman with serious anger management issues and strong criminal tendencies. He does this so well they end up married, and adopt the nicknames of "Slippery Jim" and "Spike" for each other. (Do the descriptions remind you of anyone in the Pratchett character list?) Later books chart a marriage made in larcenous heaven, and the birth of twin sons who take after Mum and Dad... <br />
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''The Stainless Steel Rat For President'' relates a tale of DiGriz and his family collaborating to fix the elections on a repressive planet ruled by a tyrant and dictator. The most rigged, bent and skewed election in the Universe then ensues, with both parties doing what they can to gerrymander, fix and fiddle the vote. A real lesson, as these things have all apparently been done in Roundworld elections... this was especially prescient of Harrison, as the electronic vote-counting machinery is rigged to the point of falling over. And this was written a ''long'' time before a certain business in Florida...<br />
Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Harry_Harrison|Harry Harrison}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}}==<br />
Author of some very funny police procedurals, the Dalziel and Pascoe series (these have been adapted for TV), and the more humour-based adventures of Luton PI Joe Sixsmith. In an internet interview, Hill has identified Terry as one of his favourite authors. His novels are set in the real world, although there are occasional touches of the supernatural in the Dalziel and Pascoe books. Hill's stories can be odd (Jane Austen's ''Emma'' rewritten as a murder thriller, anyone?), but are always satisfying. A good place to start is probably the Dalziel and Pascoe book ''Dialogues of the Dead'' and its direct sequel ''Death's Jest-Book'', or the Joe Sixsmith novel ''The Roar of the Butterflies'', which pays tribute to P.G Wodehouse.<br />
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* {{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Holt|Tom Holt}}==<br />
Author of various parodies and stories based on mythology or other tales (sound familiar).<br />
First novel based on Wagner's ''Der Ring des Nibelungen'' is called ''Expecting Someone Taller''. Although most books are standalone, there is a series of sorts starting with ''The Portable Door'', which can arguably be termed a more adult and crankier Harry Potter in a cubicle farm.<br />
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Holt's books combine what might otherwise be called ''chick-lit'' from the male point of view - there is invariably a romance between a man and a woman who almost completely fail to communicate nor see the subtleties of the other gender's form of world-view - made even more complex by the intrusion of magic and the supernatural. The paradoxes of using magic are dealt with at great length, as are the staples of fantasy fiction and folklore. Old pantheons of Gods who nobody seriously believes in any more are shunted off to a ''very special'' old peoples' home on the south coast of England. They proceed to have ''Last of the Summer Wine'' style adventures involving lash-up machinery and half-remembered magical artefacts. ''You don't have to be evil to work here, but it helps'' develops the theme of Hell being a Human Resources department full of management bollocks-speak and continual assessments with Health and Safety Law making it impossible to go out and slay dragons. A very tall dwarf and a very short giant feature as characters...<br />
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* {{wp|Tom_Holt|Tom Holt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}}==<br />
To be more specific; for the non-British reader to better understand {{UA}} and the importance of football the autobiographical ''Fever Pitch'' is a must read. Written by a left-leaning intellectual well versed in feminist theory who to the amazement of his peers spent much of his formative years on Highbury's North Bank.<br />
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This specific recommendation by [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 20:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC), and backed by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC). It's a fantastically funny and searingly true book, but don't bother reading any of his others. Nanny Ogg's got a word for them. And it's not complimentary.<br />
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* {{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tanya Huff|Tanya Huff}}==<br />
The Keeper's Chronicles are a set of three (so far) books taking place in Canada, a sort of urban fantasy-comedy. More overt than Discworld but a lot of fun.<br />
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* {{wp|Tanya_Huff|Tanya Huff}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Barry Hughart|Barry Hughart}}==<br />
''Bridge of Birds'' - "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was."<br />
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Li Kao is a great scholar with a slight flaw in his character. His patron and servant, by turns, is Number Ten Ox, a peasant lad of unusual size and strength and more wit than anyone expects. The two engage in fantastic adventures in a version of Seventh-Century China unknown to historians. Annotators might find more amusement than even Pratchett provides (if they are serious students of Chinese history) trying to separate the research from the imagination.<br />
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The similarity between Li Kao and another wrinkly little old man with unusual powers will strike most Pratchett readers. Don't tell the British press; they'll be off to Arizona to pester Mr. Hughart for his reaction to the outrageous plagiarism (again.)<br />
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The series continues with ''Eight Skilled Gentlemen'' and ''The Story of the Stone'', but these are rare and expensive.<br />
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* {{wp|Barry_Hughart|Barry Hughart}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diana Wynne Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}}==<br />
The books are intended for a younger audience but I (and other Pratchett fans with the Tiffany Aching series) have often found so-called children's books to be extremely well written, often more so than their adult counterparts. One of the major themes in her books is the "multiverse" theory--explored in Pratchett as Quantum and [[Trousers of Time|The Trousers of Time]]. She has a fairly extensive bibliography; I would recommend starting with "Deep Secret" (written in a psuedo-epistolary style) or "Charmed Life" (in The Chronicles of Chrestomanci, Vol 1). "Charmed Life" has a more Tiffany Aching-esque feel to it. --[[User:Anatwork|Anatwork]] 05:27, 2 April 2007 (CEST).<br />
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Diana Wynne Jones's ''The Tough Guide to Fantasyland'' is recommended by Terry, and includes many Discworld themes, such as swords, lost heirs, and Cities of Wizards. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 14:55, 7 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Diana_Wynne_Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stuart M. Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}}==<br />
This Russian-American author wrote a series of police procedurals with a difference. Set in the Soviet Union in the 1980's, Inspector Rostnikov is a veteran policeman in the Moscow criminal investigation force. A decent and honest copper who strives very hard to stay out of politics and just do the job that's in front of him, he contends with the everyday criminality of Moscow and fending off his out-of-touch superiors whose priorities are not his and who view his efficiency as a copper with deep suspicion. Rostnikov does not believe in the approved Leninist-Marxist doctrine that criminality in the Soviet state is perpetrated by a rump of degenerate anti-social elements, who will wither away as the Revolution triumphs and there is thus no more need for crime. He's a copper. He knows there will always be crime regardless of whose social philosophy runs the State. He just gets on with it, alongside a department of underfunded, under-resourced, coppers whose attitudes range form resigned cynicism through open-eyed idealism to a sort of robotic, golem-like obedience to the State. Indeed, his most trusted colleagues are the enthusiastic youngster Sasha and the robotic Party loyalist Karpo. The collapsing years of the Soviet Union act as the backdrop to the stories, a situation where hardly anyone truly believes in communism any more, the old political truths are repated almost as a comforting mantra, everyone can see the corruption and collapse going on all around them, but nobody, apart from political dissidents, dares to say so outright. Unfortunately the police chief known as The Wolfhound is a True Believer, and behind him is the wider KGB/MVD apparatus to which the civil police is accountable. The smoke and mirrors of the USSR's last years and the trials of routine policing in this atmosphere are drawn with a great deal of black humour. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 10:24, 19 November 2016 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Stuart_M_Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Fritz Leiber|Fritz Leiber}}==<br />
Classic sword & sorcery, but very often kind of tongue-in-cheek. TP has admitted that his early Discworld books, which can be seen as a parody of the S&S genre, were heavily inspired by Leiber's series about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. --[[User:Havelock|Havelock]] 02:20, 1 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
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In fact, the principal city of the ''Fafhrd and Gray Mouser'' stories is named "Lankhmar", which is very similar to that of [[Ankh-Morpork]], and seems to share its social complexity.<br />
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Leiber Fritz Leiber] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}}==<br />
Stanislaw Lem is a Polish writer of science fiction, some of which is very funny and whimsical. He has been lucky with English translations that capture the spirit of the original, and try to keep up with the word play. '''''[[Wikipedia:The_Cyberiad|Cyberiad]]''''' is a great place to start; it's a series of stories about the robot inventors Trurl and Klapaucius. Great illustrations by Daniel Mróz, too! Oh, and if you saw the George Clooney film version of Lem's great novel Solaris and that turned you off, just ignore it: see the original Russian film version instead.<br />
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* {{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Roy Lewis|Roy Lewis}}==<br />
Another suggestion from Terry Pratchett himself: he brought '''''The Evolution Man''''' to a British television show-and-tell as a book he wished he'd written. He said he'd read it in 1961 when it was nearly new and the influence on the thirteen-year-old writer is apparent.<BR><br />
The book describes a family of "ape-men" who are responsible for most of the social and technological development of the paleolithic era over one generation, somewhat like {{wp|Jean_Auel|Jean Auel's}} Cro-Magnons in ''Clan of the Cave Bear'' but lots funnier. It has also been published as ''What We Did to Father'' and ''Once Upon an Ice Age''. Recently republished in the US by Vintage Books.<br />
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* {{wp|Roy_Lewis|Roy Lewis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Dan McGirt|Dan McGirt}}==<br />
{{wp|Jason_Cosmo|Jason Comso}} series, a tongue-in-cheek approach to swords and sorcery.<br />
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* {{wp|Dan_McGirt|Dan McGirt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}}==<br />
Another author spoofed by Terry Pratchett ({{COM}}, {{E}}) and worth reading in his own right. <br />
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Known in his early writing years for prolific production of potboilers - the Elric series are well worth reading as "straight", if high-camp, fantasy fiction and provide a lot of background detail, as to where some of the jokes in the earliest Discworld novels originate. <br />
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Moorcock has tried his hand at farce and comic writing in the Pratchett mould: a novel called '''''The Chinese Agent''''', about a chaotic collision and an escalating series of misunderstandings between the world's secret services operating in London, is laugh-out-loud funny reading, with echoes of {{GO}}. <br />
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Similarly, there is a short story called ''The Stone Thing (A Tale of Strange Parts)'' in the anthology '''''The Flying Sorcerers''''' (Souvenir Press, 1997) where Moorcock attempts to take the mickey out of his own portentous high-camp style of writing, before anyone else does.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST). This anthology also features a Terry Pratchett short story called '''''Turntables of the Night'''''. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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Also worth reading is the Von Bek series, beginning with ''The Warhound and the World's Pain'', and the Dancers at the End of Time series, which begins with ''An Alien Heat'', and is full of Oscar Wilde-esque humour. Both of these series are available in omnibus editions.<br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Christopher Moore|Christopher Moore}}==<br />
Hilariously funny novels, which while not exactly fantasy or science fiction have elements of both. Vampires, demons, cargo cults. Death turns up as well, although it's more of a Tooth Fairy-esque franchise than a single anthropomorphic personification. It's probably best to read them in publication order, as recurring characters develop over the novels. Start with ''{{wp|Practical_Demonkeeping|Practical Demonkeeping}}'', for an introduction to the barely sane inhabitants of Pine Cove.<br />
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* {{wp|Christopher_Moore_%28author%29|Christopher Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|John Moore|John Moore}}==<br />
Small but sweet novels set in a sort of alternate, anachronistic fairy-tale past. Humorous fantasy but with a definite American touch (a la Shrek). Whimsical, but with serious undertones.<br />
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* {{wp|John Moore (American author)|John Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}}==<br />
A founder member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]], Kim wrote '''Anno Dracula''', the definitive "what if..." book, starting from the utter failure of van Helsing and his well-intended dreamers to destroy Count Dracula. This irritating little diversion dealt with, Dracula then resumes his trip to England, and introduces himself at Court as a member of very long-standing Rumanian royal dynasty. Which is true, to a given value of true. Queen Victoria then invites her relative - well, he's European royalty, he ''must'' be related - to come and stay at Buck House, or Sandringham, maybe Balmoral, or the one on the Isle of Wight. Having been invited into the palace, Dracula, like a certain vampire noble in {{CJ}}, stays. And stays. And takes over England. And by extension the British Empire. (Does this sound like a certain Pratchett book yet?). He even marries the royal widow and becomes King-Emperor. Then invites the family over from Transylvania. The idea if a vampire dynasty ruling Britain, the degree of acceptance/rebellion it engenders, and how Dracula dealt with threats to British world rule, is continued in the following novels of the trilogy. .--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]]<br />
* {{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Naomi Novik|Naomi Novik}}==<br />
A fantasy dragon-story, set in the original 17th century Roundworld! The story isn't as funny as a Discworld novel, but Temeraire's dialogue (the dragon in question) can be very tongue-in-cheek! Could be a bit girlish book, but then again, you can very well be one! .--[[User:Charlie007|Charlie007]]<br />
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* {{wp|Naomi_Novik|Naomi Novik}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Pat O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}}==<br />
Although her book {{wp|The_Hounds_of_the_Morrigan|'''''The Hounds of the Morrigan'''''}} is aimed at children, like the best children's writers she creates a world which may also be inhabited by adults without their losing face. Set in West Galway, two children come to realise that despite St Patrick's best efforts, the old Irish gods and goddesses never went away. They just went ''over there a wee bit''. <br />
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The return of the Old Gods to modern (1970's?) Ireland has its threat: the Goddess who has awoken is the old and evil Morrigan, the triple-goddess of death and chaos and nightmare. She must be stopped...<br />
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O'Shea blends the ancient tales into a modern Irish landscape with deftness and humour. The children enter the ''other'' Ireland of myth and fable, and while at its worst the humour takes on a Disney-Oirish cuteness, the colour and texture of the book slowly darken into a mythological landscape Neil Gaiman would be proud of (not without humour). Recommended. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:15, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Pat_O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Douglas Adams|Douglas Adams}} (Honorary #42)==<br />
English comic author sometimes compared to Terry Pratchett, most famous for his ''Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' series, who passed away in May 2001.<br />
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He developed a Pratchett-like idea in his novel ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Tea-Time_of_the_Soul The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul]'' (1988), where idiosyncratic private investigator Dirk Gently has to investigate a case involving the survival of the old Norse gods into the present day, and the nature of the dark pact they have to enter into to ensure their continued existence. This book echoes the Pratchett theme that a god may only survive so long as belief persists, and that there is no thing sadder than a god still doggedly hanging on after the need for him (or her) has ended.<br />
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The book also develops the concept of Thor (who is also encountered in ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_the_Universe_and_Everything Life, the Universe, and Everything]'' (1982) as an otherwise unnamed Thunder God trying to pull Trillian at a party, and being outwitted by Arthur Dent) as an over-muscled and somewhat thick god with exaggerated body language.<br />
<br />
Some concepts are shared by Pratchett and Adams in their respective science-fiction work, most notably a debunking of the utopian ''Star Trek'' ideal that greater technological sophistication confers greater wisdom and a pacifistic world-view. <br />
<br />
It can justly be said that Arthur Dent and [[Twoflower]] share a common characteristic: both are ignorant wanderers in a strange and foreign world, but the difference is that Arthur Dent is painfully and continually aware of how dangerous it all is, and of how much the settled inhabitants view him with condescending derision. (''Hey, monkeyman''!) Twoflower is blissfully unaware of the dangers and ambles unconcernedly through life. While it is true Arthur Dent does not have [[the Luggage]] to defend him, he is equipped with the Babel Fish (the equivalent is [[Rincewind]]'s ear for language) together with the resources embodied in Ford Prefect. Is Rincewind a parallel of Ford Prefect? Well, both have a vested interest in cheating death and running away from potential trouble by any means available. Just as Rincewind is constrained by the [[Patrician]]'s expressed wish to keep Twoflower alive and well, Ford must keep Arthur alive, as the last living being from planet Earth who may know the Question to the Answer. In both cases, a genuine friendship (of sorts) exists. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST) Seen otherwise, Arthur Dent shares some of ''Rincewind'''s view that he will be flung into a bad situation ''no matter what''.<br />
<br />
* [http://www.douglasadams.com/ The official Douglas Adams website]<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams Douglas Adams] on Wikipedia<br />
* [http://h2g2.com/ h2g2] - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy<br />
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=={{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}}==<br />
Have you ever wondered about the description of Lancre Castle, in the early pages of {{WS}}, as ''having been designed by an architect who'd heard about Ghormenghast, but had done the best he can despite having neither the budget nor the space?'' Or about the description of the way time and space do weird things in the precincts of Unseen University, with the effect that ''it makes Ghormenghast look like a toolshed on a railway allotment?''<br />
<br />
Well, Peake is the source: his contribution to the fantasy fiction ouevre is the magnificent and thick-as-several-bricks ''Ghormenghast'' trilogy, a beautifully written account of life in a massive, rambling, castle-cum-city-cum-palace which has, er, accumulated over the course of several thousand years, with every new generation adding further bits to it as they see fit. Therefore it rambles a bit, like the most eccentric English stately home, and entire rooms, floors, even wings, have been lost over the centuries. <br />
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Peake richly describes the settings and populates the Castle with a civilization of grotesques, of whom the sanest and most sympathetic is possibly the good Doctor Prunesquallor, a man who like Cosmo Lavish is burdened with a dificult and sometimes embarrassing sister. <br />
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The social system is a suffocating heirarchy where a royal family rules at the top, and everyone else is born into a rigid caste system where even their very jobs are mapped out for them at birth. There is no way to change one's preordained social status, and until the advent of a rebellious kitchen scullion named Steerpike, nobody attempts to. At first a hero deserving sympathy, Steerpike climbs literally and metaphorically out of the depths of the castle kitchens and begins a calculated advance to the very top. His character subtly changes as his ambition grows, and it is clear he is seeking to depose the ruling family. After several murders, the former hero has become a monster: he is indirectly responsible for the death of the heroine Fuchsia, whose brother, Titus Groan, heir to Ghormenghast, resolves to destroy him. <br />
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A magnificent piece of fantasy and "baroque humour", a must-read for anyone into fantasy fiction, and another source of ideas and in-jokes for TP! ({{P}} is thought to be heavily influenced by Peake's characters. See [[Book:Pyramids/Annotations|here]]).<br />
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'''January 2010''': Breaking news. A fourth '''Gormenghast''' novel, started by Peake and finished, at least in draft outline, by his widow, has been discovered among a batch of the late author's papers. There is a possibility that it will see print by 2011. More here:- [http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/15/gormenghast-sequel-mervyn-peake-widow?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+theguardian%2Fbooks%2Frss+(Books)|More_here]. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 02:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Philip Pullman|Philip Pullman}}==<br />
An obvious choice, perhaps, but if you're looking for the fantastic and not just the hilarious, ''{{wp|His_Dark_Materials|His Dark Materials}}'' is a fabulous trilogy. It's probably the best fantasy since Tolkien. Terry Brooks, {{wp|Dragonlance|Weis and Hickman}}, {{wp|The_Dark_Is_Rising|Susan Cooper}} have all been and gone; JK Rowling's had a good go, but this is by far the best written of all of them. I know it's just become a film, but read the books first. The metaphysics is cool too. The idea of multiple worlds and realities (parallel universes?) could have come from [[Ponder Stibbons]] himself... --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 14:05, 23 December 2007 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Philip_Pullman|Philip Pullman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Rankin|Robert Rankin}}==<br />
Much kookier than Pratchett, Rankin has a love affair with running gags and breaking down the fourth wall, has a style that seesaws between grandiose and I'll-break-yer-teeth, and his books generally involve small British towns and aliens, Hell, Elvis, time travel, or all of them at once. Described as "stark raving genius". His most recent book, ''The Educated Ape'', has a chimpanzee for its lead character who is oddly reminiscent of a certain orang-utan, thwarting misdeeds in a Victorian Steampunk London assisted by scientists, assassins, and wizards. Hmm. <br />
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* {{wp|Robert_Rankin|Robert Rankin}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}}==<br />
A cartoonist, who created the St Trinians schoolgirls, as well as the Molesworth stories (in fact written by Geoffrey Willians) and several other books, like an illustrated adaption of Gilbert and Sullivan's work for print ''Dick Dead Eye''.<br />
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* {{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}} on Wikipedia; {{wp|Geoffrey Willians|Geoffrey Willians}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}}==<br />
Mostly set in mid to late 20th century England, Tom Sharpe's novels range from smile-inducing to gut-wrenchingly funny on my personal humour scale, with "Ancestral Vices", "Porterhouse Blue" and "Blott on the Landscape" being the most relentlessly funny, to my mind. He holds no subject sacred, and his humour is much more brutal than, say, P. G. Wodehouse's or Terry's, but if you can stomach the wholesale and ruthless slaughter of sacred cattle and a certain amount of crudity, he can be a very funny author indeed. Common themes are weak-willed men, ferocious women, sexual perversions, incompetent academics and eccentric peers. The ''Wilt'' series deals with higher academia and the wranglings of an out-of-touch academic bureaucracy, concerned more with prestige and power than the delivery of education. The ''Piemburg'' farces are set in apartheid South Africa and centre on an inept and incompetent police force, which comes over as the City Watch shorn of its redeeming graces - it even has its own Findthee Swing and a dedicated "Cable Street Particulars" of the old sort. Secret policeman Liutnant Verkramp is obsessed with measuring and calibrating to assess the precise degree of black African corruption in the white race and has his own interesting character tics; the unspeakable Konstabel Els, a man who views being in the police force as a licence to get away with lots of crime, is a monster all on his own who loves very large powerful weapons - and their frequent satisfying use. <br />
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* {{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jonathan Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}}==<br />
Author of the Bartimaeus Trilogy. These books are very witty with a superb use of footnotes. Told from the point of view of a wisecracking demon summoned by British magicians.<br />
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* {{wp|Jonathan_Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}}==<br />
The father of modern science fiction and sometime writer of wonderful fantasy short stories. He is often mentioned for his apparent prediction of the DNA molecule in his novella, ''The Golden Helix'' .<br />
Sturgeon was the kind of professional writer, like TP, who could knock off an assignment from elsewhere with imagination and force (e.g. {{wp|I, Libertine|''I, Libertine''}}), and he has similarly been accused of literature.<BR><br />
Look for {{wp|More Than Human|''More Than Human''}}, {{wp|The Dreaming Jewels|''The Dreaming Jewels''}} (aka The Synthetic Man), {{wp|Without Sorcery|''Without Sorcery''}}, ''E. Pluribus Unicorn'', ''Caviar'', but any collection you stumble across will contain a gem or two.<br />
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* {{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}}==<br />
Like Edward Conlon above, Wambaugh is an ex-beat cop turned novelist. His first novel '''the New Centurions''' was written in 1971 whilst still a serving cop, and followed a group of misfits from police academy into their first probationary year on the beat on Los Angeles streets. A theme of New Centurions is the gradual build-up to a city-wide riot beginning in its equivalent of [[The Shades]] that put Los Angeles on the world map for all the wrong reasons. His fledgling cops have to deal with this as best they can - think {{MAA}} here. (In real life, the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots|the Watts Riot] of 1965). The work for which he is most famous, '''The Choirboys''', employs the same combination of black humour and gritty realism, and is known to have influenced Terry Pratchett in creating the Ankh-Morpork City Watch. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:36, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}}==<br />
The ''Dragonlance'' series of books are quite possibly the best all-out quintessential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien. A normal premise (a relatively unassuming band of friends &ndash; who happen to be a warrior, a wizard, a knight, a half-elf, an elven princess, a hobbit-like creature, a dwarf and so on) become involved in a quest, and end up saving the world. Kitsch as that sounds, the story is genuinely enthralling and the first series spawned a massive TLR push, and there are now in excess of 50 books, Dungeons & Dragons-style RPGs &c all based on them. Go read - the first three (''Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning'') are wonderful. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:21, 15 August 2007 (CEST)<br />
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The {{wp|Darksword|''Darksword''}} trilogy and the {{wp|Rose_of_the_Prophet|''Rose of the Prophet''}} trilogy are well worth reading, too. They are a lot more original than any of the ''Dragonlance'' books. The seven {{wp|The_Deathgate_Cycle|''Deathgate''}} books are well written, too.<br />
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* {{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}}==<br />
Wodehouse's stories feature light humor, similar to Pterry's earlier works. Flashes of Wodehouse whimsy appear regularly and young Pratchett heroes like [[Moist von Lipwig]] resemble PGW's ''Psmith''. Willikins the butler, of course, comes in a straight line from the famous ''Jeeves''. There are a number of direct references, including, in *Hogfather* a suggestion that the Hogfather's pigs be urged on with the cry "Pighoo--ooey!" an echo of a Wodehouse story by the same name. <br />
<br />
Also like Wodehouse is the development of several distinct groups of stories with their own casts and localities. The Blandings books are set at Blandings Castle and usually have to with the Earl of Emsworth's obsession with his pig; the Mulliner Stories are set in the Angler's Rest and are increasingly tall tales about Mr. Mulliner's relatives; the Drones Club is set in London among a set of truly hapless, albeit wealthy young men.<br />
<br />
The turn of phrase is very similar: Neil Gaiman has pointed out that he, PTerry, Douglas Adams, and Jasper Fforde can all do it. Pratchett goes into darker territory: the most threatening figures in Wodehouse are aunts. But it can be argued that both Wodehouse and Pratchett present a view of the world that is ultimately accepting and tolerant.<br />
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* {{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Patricia C. Wrede |Patricia C. Wrede }}==<br />
Humorous fantasy in a Candide-like style (very short chapters with very long titles). Her {{wp|Enchanted Forest Chronicles|''Enchanted Forest Chronicles''}} explore what happens to a beautiful 16-year-old princess who does not WANT to get married to a handsome prince. Ostensibly written for children, it has a ''Harry Potter''-like style that can be enjoyed by adults (and was written ''way'' before ''Harry Potter'', btw!). [[User:Kellyterryjones|Kellyterryjones]] 00:47, 24 December 2007 (CET) She has also written a series of fantasy books set in an alternate frontier America. [[User:Tiffany_Aching|Tiffany_Aching]] 10:43, 17 July 2014<br />
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Wrede Patricia C. Wrede] on Wikipedia<br />
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[[Category:Reading suggestions]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Reading_suggestions&diff=30602Reading suggestions2020-02-03T20:44:56Z<p>AgProv: the "real" Fresh Start Club</p>
<hr />
<div>A question that regularly pops up is: ''I'm enjoying Pratchett, what other books are there I could possibly enjoy?''. This page is here to help you. If you like Pratchett, these books are recommended by the fans.<br />
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*For the more graphically-oriented, see also [[Webcomic and Graphic Novel Suggestions]].<br />
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=={{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}}==<br />
A former scriptwriter for ''Doctor Who'', Ben has branched out into writing the ''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_London_(novel)| Rivers of London]'' fantasy series. (Retitled ''Midnight Riot'' in the USA). Peter Grant is a newly-graduated police constable in London. He is less than enchanted to be assigned to a department dealing with records and data-entry, and feels being labelled as a uniformed admin clerk has killed his police career before it has even begun. Then he meets Inspector Nightingale, who he discovers runs a department that the Met reluctantly accepts it has to have, but is less than generally thrilled to admit to and which it regards as an anachronistic embarrassment in this day and age. Grant finds himself re-assigned to The Folly. And becomes a policeman walking a really weird beat - dealing with things of magic, folklore and more-than-myth which are still there in London and need to be policed. He discovers in a city with two thousand years of history, some things are inevitable, and come with the turf. He becomes an apprentice wizard and learns magic is still there. And magical crime needs magical policemen. The higher echelons of the Met and British government are resigned to this and accept there needs to be such a Force. Peter's adventures in the magical underbelly of London are described with black humour and a lot of absurd moments. <br />
<br />
Just to make it clear where he gets his inspiration from, Ben dedicates at least one of the books (in which elves ands unicorns figure) to Sir Terry Pratchett.<br />
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* {{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Piers Anthony|Piers Anthony}}==<br />
{{wp|Xanth|Xanth}} series. Xanth is a very punny fantasy world. Piers Anthony also writes the "Terry Pratchett is fast, funny, and going places. Try him!" blurb found on many of Terry's books.<br />
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Xanth is probably best thought of as the ''Chronicles of Narnia'' played as a ''Carry On'' film. <br />
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I personally have found Anthony more corny than funny, with a very robotic, formulaic, writing style and a very dirty mind, even for purported "kids'" books. The humor is far sillier and more lowbrow. -[[User:Cidolfas|Cidolfas]]<br />
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Piers Anthony's other series (eg, {{wp|Incarnations_of_Immortality|''Incarnations of Immortality''}} and {{wp|Apprentice_Adept|''Apprentice Adept''}}) are not humorous, and are not similar to Terry's works. At best, the ''Incarnations'' series revolves around the idea that anthropomorphic personalities may "retire" from their jobs and return to the real world as they choose, and may select and train a successor. Anthony's Fate, for instance, takes it a step further and plays with the idea that this anthropomorphic personality might well run down a family dynasty, the female members of which each adopt one of the three faces of the classic Greek Fate. Death, in Anthony's world, is not so much a person as a job description. But this is only superficially similar to Death and Time each being a family business on the Discworld. <br />
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"I tried reading ''A Spell for Chameleon'' back in 1986 and threw it across the room after three chapters. I tried again in 2007 and lasted for five chapters. Just can't do it". This illustrates the idea that Xanth, while a tour-de-farce of the imagination, can in some readers evoke a reaction similar to that of Susan Sto Helit when she contemplates dancing across the rooftops with a cheeky cheery chimney sweep. Susan would see nothing wrong in a spoonful of sugar, but gallons of cloying syrup might well provoke a vomiting reflex. Xanth, with its heavy archness, is best approached when in a mood of whimsy and minimal critical function. In this frame of mind, it is not unpleasant, but too much syrup can kill tastebuds. The concept of the Adult Secret involves a perceived Adult Conspiracy to keep children in the dark about sexual matters for as long as possible.<br />
<br />
Re-reading Piers Anthony lately - not just Xanth but more mainline novels - I also felt v. uneasy about Piers A's occasional lapses into fascination with the physical development of pubescent girls. In one of the ''Incarnations'' books, for instance, he has an eleven year old girl strip naked while an older relative has a private inner reverie about the attractive shape of her body. It isn't pornographic, and the plot that calls for it isn't too contrived, but it's written in enough loving detail to make me feel uneasy and voyeuristic about reading it. And this isn't exactly an isolated occurrence in his books, ref. an interest in pre-teen girls...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 11:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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As a forensic psychologist, I'm writing further to what AgProv has written on the Piers Anthony sexual storyline with the 11 year old child. Frankly, Anthony's writing verges on unlawful pedophilia writings and I am amazed that a mainstream publisher would actually give credence to Anthony's perverted and sick fantasies involving children that are truly DISTURBING. He is like a dirty old man leering over a legal minor in the kind of graphic and sick sexual detail that makes my hair stand on end. Let's be clear - this kind of pedophilia-type "prose" would be condemned almost anywhere, if it wasn't dressed up as 'literature'. Piers Anthony is way out of the league of Terry Pratchett, and shouldn't even be compared. He is not even a poor imitation. I would welcome what others have to say, but for me, Xanth far from being a Chronicles of Narnia, is a poorly-written tripe. What bothers me most is how Piers Anthony writes such plainly disturbing pedophilia sexual accounts involving a minor, which is typical pedophile behavior both pre- and post-action. This should be wholeheartedly condemned by all responsible adults... --[[User:Jongerman|Jongerman]] 09:11, 29 January 2011 (EST)<br />
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Further details about PA's approach to sexual content ''[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAppeal here]''. No editorialising, judge for yourself. <br />
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And while the purpose of this entry isn't to try the man, but to point out he HAS written some eminently readable sci-fi and fantasy ('''''Prosthro Plus'''''. about an Earth dentist abducted into Space and having to get up to speed with alien oral hygiene ''very quickly'', is hilarious and recommended), it is perhaps germane to consider a "quest" book Anthony wrote in the Xanth series. It becomes of extreme importance for the questing party to get a true answer to a mystery which gives the novel its name - '''''The Color of Her Panties'''''. In which female knickers pertaining to younger ladies are discussed and described at length. - --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 19:59, 12 May 2011 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Piers_Anthony|Piers Anthony}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kelley Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}}==<br />
Author of a series of books concerning how members of magical and Undead races have had to "go underground" to survive in the modern USA. '''''"Men of the Otherworld"''''' is about a young Werewolf growing up in his Pack and learning how to behave so as to fit into human society. He is taught who he can eat, when he can eat them, about Pack dynamics and politics, and how not to stand out at school (eating the class guinea pig is a great big no-no).<br />
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In '''''"No Humans Involved"''''', the location is a Haunted House TV show. In the UK these are shot in green light in an allegedly haunted house while it is cooling from the day in the wee small hours of the morning. Therefore there are a lot of creaks and drips for an ex-childrens' TV presenter and a camp scouse "psychic" to get excited about. <br />
In Kelley Armstrong's USA, what happens when a ''real'' psychic, in fact a trained and hereditary Necromancer, joins the presenting team on such a show...<br />
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Horror done with wicked humour. She has also written the ''Nadia Stafford'' trilogy: about a woman who has the skills, resolve, and methodical ability to plan and avoid ''over-confidence'' that makes her into somebody who could walk into the Guild of Assassins and be instantly welcomed as part of the Sorority. <br />
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Reccomendation by --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Kelley_Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Asprin|Robert Asprin}}==<br />
Author of the hilarious {{wp|Mythadventures|''Mythadventures''}} series of novels, featuring a young magician, his pet dragon, a tough-but-lovable demon friend, a sexy trollop assassin, her hairy troll brother, a couple of mafia hitmen, a moll, and more.<br />
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* {{wp|Robert_Asprin|Robert Asprin}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Josef Assad|Josef Assad}}==<br />
Released his first novel [http://www.archive.org/details/JosefAssad_TheBanjoPlayersMustDie ''The Banjo Players Must Die''] under a free Creative Commons license. Reading like a misanthropic Terry Pratchett, it is a dystopian and self-referential history of how Judgment Day came about, for very small values of 'came about'.<br />
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* {{wp|Josef_Assad|Josef Assad}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Clive Barker|Clive Barker}}==<br />
Clive Barker is a fantasy writer known for painting amazing watercolors to accompany his writing. Some of his works include the award winning series '''[[Wikipedia:Abarat|Abarat]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Imajica|Imajica]]''' and '''The Damnation Game'''. The book ''Abarat'' and its sequels tell the story of Candy Quakenbush, a teenage girl who gets pulled into a strange archipelago called The Abarat. The Abarat consists of twenty five islands, each one a different hour of the day, and one island that is time out of time. The series centers around the conflict between the islands of day and the islands of night. While ''Abarat'' and other books by Clive Barker are not a funny as Pratchett's they more then make up for it in oddness and the insanity of the worlds and characters.<br />
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* {{wp|Clive_Barker|Clive Barker}} on Wikipedia<br />
* Clive Barker's website: [http://www.clivebarker.info/]<br />
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=={{wp|James Bibby|James Bibby}}==<br />
The author of ''Ronan the Barbarian'' and its two sequels, all of which fit perfectly in the genre of comic fantasy. Much like Pratchett's earlier novels (although admittedly, much more ''adult''-oriented), the novel plays on the clichéd fantasy genre, but also includes genuinely interesting and likable characters. The book may be hard to find -- as it was only published in 1995, and once more in 1996 -- but definitely worth the trouble, being close-to the funniest author I've had the pleasure of reading. - [[User:Quoth|Quoth]]<br />
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* {{wp|James_Bibby|James Bibby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|S.G. Browne|S.G. Browne}}==<br />
S.G. Browne (Scott Browne) is an American author of blackly comic novels. So far there are ten of them, and a recurring theme is Zombies. Not the shambling revenants of fiction and film. Browne's vision is more rounded and bleakly funny than that. his debut novel ''Breathers: A Zombie's Lament'' deals with those unfortuante souls in the USA who are fated to return to worldly existence, occupying the bodies they thought they had left behind, in the modern USA. Browne begins with the idea that there are only two ways a Zombie can go after undeath kicks in. they can become homeless derilects - who really looks at a homeless person on the street? They are guaranteed invisibility. Or else they can live in California. Even then the Resurrected face hostility, persecution and lack of understanding from the Breathers - normal living people. Andy Warner is one such. He got up and staggered away from the car crash that killed his wife only to discover the awful truth - he was now part of a despised underclass perceived as fair game for sadistic cruelty and denied civil rights. He even joins a mutual support group for the Undead, presided over by a naive idealist who was killed trying to resolve a marital disagreement between two of her therapy patients. Most of the zombies who attend agree that they only attend because they feel sorry for Helen. They are resigned to a life of slowly disintegrating and falling into rotten decay, as well as avoiding drunken frat members who have seen "Dawn of the Dead" once too often. Andy decides to become an Undead Rights activist. And then they meet Ray, who introduces them to the miracle food, which he describes as "venison"... <br />
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* {{wp|S.G. Browne|S.G. Browne}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Susanna Clarke|Susanna Clarke}}==<br />
The author(ess?) of ''Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell''. This is an enormous book, written as an alternate history set in 19th-century England around the time of the Napoleonic Wars. It is based on the premise that magic once existed in England and has returned with two men: Gilbert Norrell and Jonathan Strange. Centering on the relationship between these two men, the novel investigates the nature of "Englishness" and the boundary between reason and madness. It has been described as a fantasy novel, an alternate history, and an historical novel. The narrative draws on various Romantic literary traditions, such as the comedy of manners, the Gothic tale, and the Byronic hero. The novel's language is a pastiche of 19th-century writing styles, such as those of Jane Austen and Charles Dickens. Clarke describes the supernatural with mundane details. Neil Gaiman, no less, described it as "unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the last 70 years". Look it up on Wikipedia - the way Bloomsbury pushed its publication is jaw-dropping - and even more so when you know it was her first novel! Recommended by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Susanna_Clarke|Susanna Clarke}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}}==<br />
The author of the novel {{wp|Ready Player One|''Ready Player One''}}. A story set in a dystopia future that is so bleak that humanity collectively lives through the OASIS, a full immersion computer game, where the games creator has left his huge fortune to whoever can find his hidden 'Easter Egg.' A great novel for fans of sci-fi and humour similar to Terry Pratchett, he's even mentioned a couple of times. Recommended by [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] 17:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC).<br />
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*{{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Eoin Colfer|Eoin Colfer}}==<br />
Eoin (pronounced "Owen") Colfer has come up with another world not too dissimilar to ours, but this time it's our world as we know it interfacing with the world of the Lower Elements: fairies, trolls (even thicker than TP's!), goblins, dwarves and the like. It even has a reason why the word Leprechaun exists: it comes from LEP Recon &ndash; the reconnaissance and recovery side of the Lower Elements Police. They are nominally childrens' books, but none the worse for that. So, essentially, is ''The Hobbit'' (see also comments for Diana Wynne Jones). The books centre around one "Artemis Fowl" - a twelve-year-old criminal mastermind. Swallow that, and the books are delightful. There is a large dollop of Pratchett-esque humour: witness why dwarves are such good diggers!!!! --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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'''Breaking News:''' Eoin Colfer has been selected to complete a largely unstarted sixth volume of [[Douglas Adams]]' h2g2 series:-<br />
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/17/douglasadams] The resultant book has now been released under the title of '''''And Another Thing....''''' I'm reading it. It's good! --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC).<br />
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He's pretty darn good. And the Artemis Fowl timeline is essentially a budget version of the Disc's: as convoluted as you can make it in seven books. --[[User:Dragon4|Dragon4]] ([[User talk:Dragon4|talk]]) 21:16, 13 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
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* {{wp|Eoin_Colfer|Eoin Colfer}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}}==<br />
Written in 2004, Conlon's autobiography '''Blue Blood''' came too late for it to have directly influenced most of the Watch books. Conlon is the third generation of his family to have served in the New York Police Department, following his grandfather and father. In 560 pages, he relates many accounts of the events likely to happen to an NYPD patrolman in the course of his duties. These can be horrifying, amusing, or just plain weird by turns. Many of them, such as the possibly rabid domestic cat that could make [[Greebo]] look like a placid neuteree, could have been scripted for the Watch to deal with. The everyday frustrations of police work, such as the bureaucracy, the chore of report-writing, political interference from above, and the personality types of his fellow cops, could all be background for a Watch novel. Among many other little details of police life, conlon also has an interesting take on the whole grey area between legitimate "perks" and outright bribe-taking. He also describes his grandfather with love and affection, a beat cop who Fred Colon would have hailed as a long-lost brother. Conlon does for the NYPD what Joseph Wambaugh (a known influence on the Watch) does for the LAPD on the other coast. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}}==<br />
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Author of a very funny and at the same time extremely erudite series set in the Ancient Rome of Vespasian, about an informer (something like a private detective) by the name of Marcus Didius Falco, an Aventine guttersnipe who, having fallen in love with a senator's daughter, the spirited, independent-minded Helena, sets out to better himself socially and financially. Ms Davis takes a light-and-dark, and entertainingly cynical, approach to the seedy realities of day-to-day life and politics in Vespasian's Rome, and has Marcus and Helena involved in a string of mysteries as they accept jobs from everyone from jealous spouses to the emperor himself. A spin-off series is set in a slightly later time when Falco has prudently retired from investigating, citing a need to stay away from the attentions of a paranoid and despotic new Emperor who he investigated when he was merely a Prince, and has incriminating evidence against. The focus of the series now moves to his adopted daughter Flavia Albia, who has learnt well from her father and become a private detective herself. Very well written and highly addictive.<br />
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* {{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diane Duane|Diane Duane }}==<br />
Again, another writer of YA books, but very ''very'' good ones. Her {{wp|Young Wizards|''Young Wizards''}} series, starting off with "So You Want to be a Wizard", explores what ''really'' happens when you sign up to be a wizard, eg: travelling to alternate dimensions with friendly, ''sentient'' micro-stars, inviting alien foreign exchange students to stay the planet, and helping whales perform ancient rituals underneath the sea to prevent the earth from cracking like an egg. I could go on, but I think a quote from TVTropes sums up the series perfectly: "Infamous in its fandom for a tendency to grab you by the heart and squeeze" --[[User:Varriount|Varriount]]<br />
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* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Duane Diane Duane] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jasper Fforde|Jasper Fforde}}==<br />
Author of the Thursday Next books which started with ''The Eyre Affair.''<br />
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Perhaps the closest thing to the Pratchett theme of story-driven reality, but start with ''The Eyre Affair''; we were pretty disappointed with ''Something Rotten'' at our house.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]]<br />
:I'll go with that - ''Something Rotten'' was pretty rotten, but the four '''Thursday Next''' books are excellent. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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Fforde is very apt at twisting the narrative conventions, and his humour is very Pratchett-like indeed. I also recommend the Nursery Rhyme series, starting with The ''Big Over Easy'', starring Marlowe-like detective Jack Spratt. --Abie, 25 May 2010.<br />
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His books are very good: The Last Dragonslayer books are hilarious, and the first one especially has quite a clever premise. One of his latest books had a review along the lines of 'Watch out Terry Pratchett,' on it, so that should give you some idea...--[[User:AnnieBudgie|AnnieBudgie]] ([[User talk:AnnieBudgie|talk]]) 11:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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Indeed, the [[Terry Pratchett|Creator]] himself said of ''The Eyre Affair'': "Ingenious. I shall watch Jasper Fforde nervously."<br />
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* {{wp|Jasper_Fforde|Jasper Fforde}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}}==<br />
Fraser was cited by Terry Pratchett as one of five authors whose books he would buy immediately on publication. His best-known works are the ''Flashman'' series (the cowardly but lucky Harry Flashman has many points of similarity with Rincewind) and the [[Daft Wullie|''McAuslan'']] series (whose Gordon Highlanders are [[Book:The Wee Free Men/Annotations|Roundworld Nac Mac Feegle]].) Fraser's books are usually scrupulously accurate history with a few fictitious characters inserted, and include copious footnotes and endnotes.<br />
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While the accepted Discworld referent for Flashman is usually taken to be Rincewind, Flashman is also a bluff, genial, con-man whose whole life is predicated on persuading people to accept he is something he is not. He pulls some almightily audacious bluffs in his career, and on one occasion, his wholly reasonable tendency towards self-preservation (which could uncharitably be described as cowardice) is subverted by a chemical substance which his lover of the moment assures him is a nice relaxing tonic. This enables him to fight and lead a battle without any fear at all and in fact to avert a Russian invasion of India whilst British attention is focused on the Crimea. A similar thing happens to Moist von Lipwig in {{RS}}...<br />
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* {{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Neil Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}}==<br />
Co-author of {{GO}}, so an easy choice. Pratchett fans seem to prefer ''Neverwhere'' and ''American Gods''. One of the latest novels is ''Anansi Boys''. {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Gaiman}} is known for his ability to create fascinating pantheons - if you're at all interested in comics, the ''Sandman'' series (which rightfully catapulted Gaiman to the fame he enjoys today) is one of the best ever written. His perky-goth Death is the best anyone's ever done with the character after Pratchett.<br />
Terry himself says that his novel, ''Coraline'', "...has the delicate horror of the finest fairy tales, and is a masterpiece."<br />
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Neil was a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]].<br />
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Recommended by [[User:Sanity|Sanity]].<br />
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* {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Craig Shaw Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}}==<br />
''Ebenezum'' and ''Wuntvor'' series are quite humorous, though the latter tends to drag a bit.<br />
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* {{wp|Craig_Shaw_Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}}==<br />
Mary Gentle's masterwork ''Ash: A Secret History'' must be recommended here as one of those books that lingers in the mind and fires neurons into new and different arrangements. There is certainly humour here: most obviously in the Rabelaisian adventures of a mediaeval mercenary company, hiring itself out to the highest bidder and finding laughter where it can in, a mediaeval landscape straight out of ''Monty Python and the Holy Grail''. There is also a deeper, rather black, humour of a more satirical kind, as the book deals with deeper and more profound issues of time and history and the way we perceive the passage of both. There are two interleaved stories here: one deals with the adventures of the mercenary company of the Lion, commanded by the warrior-woman Ash. The second story takes place in our own time, and deals with a historian trying to make sense of the legend of Ash, who starts to discover that the historical certainties of the past are slipping and changing around him wherever he looks. There can only be ''one'' past, right? Dead wrong. His suspicions are confirmed when archaeologist colleagues start to unearth artefacts relating to a past that by all rights should never have happened, and which start to prove the established history books are utterly dead wrong. <br />
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History is changing. All the indications point to the trigger point being somewhere in the late 1400's and somehow, Ash the warrior captain is intimately involved. Something happened in or around the year 1476 to completely alter the course of history - and belatedly, the late 1990's are changing to conform to that time-rift. The sequence of events in the late 1400's very nearly destroyed the world and ''something'' moved to correct it, to rewrite history into the form in which we knew it. Until the history professor started looking into the life of Ash and pulling together the random shreds that remained, out of place and time, of that secret history...<br />
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As well as being a thrilling fantasy/sci-fi adventure, Ash is also a satire on the practice and teaching of history, which (as Vetinari and the History Monks know) is neither fixed nor objective. Indeed, it offers insight into how the History Monks might operate, were they to exist on Roundworld, to restitch time and history after, say, a Sourcerer or a Glass Clock nearly blew it into smithereens. It vividly describes what people might notice, what would be observed, during a time-slip of this nature, and what loose ends would be left flapping afterwards that not even a Lu-Tze could tidy away. It even suggests a mechanism, which has to do with pyramids, and suggests that some VERY strange things happened in the latter 1400's in known history that are strange and anomalous... <br />
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Did TP read this book before, say, writing {{TOT}}? Ash was published in 1999, ten years after TP wrote {{S}}, but definitely released before {{TOT}} (published 2001). It's a very tempting thought... oh, and there are golems in this book. Like and unlike to those of the Discworld. <br />
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In a far lighter vein, Mary Gentle has also written '''''Grunts!''''', an account of the Eternal War between Good and Evil, as seen through the jaundiced eyes of those expendable foot-soldiers of the dark and sword-fodder for Heroes, the Orcs. Both repulsive and oddly sympathetic at the same time, the Orcs discover a trans-dimensional dragon whose hoard includes an entire United States Marine Corps armoury. <br />
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Equipped with high-tech weapons, the Orcs then see about carving out a corner of the fantasy world they can call theirs.<br />
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As Mary Gentle, along with Neil Gaiman, is a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]] to whom an early Discworld novel is dedicated (the HPLHFC consists of members of the new wave of British sci-fi/fantasy authors), then it would appear reasonably certain that TP is aware of her books. There are fairly unmistakable references to '''''Grunts''''' in the pages of {{UA}}, which given the subject matter would be even more remarkable by their absence. <br />
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Much recommended! <br />
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Both books recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}}==<br />
Alan Gordon (born 1959) is the author of several mysteries, the first of which is based on the characters from William Shakespeare's '''''Twelfth Night'''''. He writes about jesters as advisers to the king, who actually make up a super-secret spy ring that try to keep peace and control the leaders of different countries. The Fool's Guild of these novels is portrayed as a mockery to the church, and they refer to Jesus Christ as "Their Saviour, the First Fool".<br />
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Alan Gordon began writing his novels about fools and jesters as a supra-national spy ring in 1999. This is exactly the same idea TP came up with a year or two earlier to explain the survival of the otherwise increasingly irrelevant Fools' and Clowns' Guild into the modern era - that the Guild's graduates go everywhere, end up in some very high places, and periodically report back to Doctor Whiteface. Making him both very rich and very powerful. <br />
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Is it possible AG got the basic idea for his seven Fools' Guild novels from Pratchett? I hope to track down at least one Alan Gordon novel today, read it, and report back here, as the similarities to Pratchett's Fools' Guild are just so obvious...<br />
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Just finished reading ''A Death in the Venetian Quarter'', about Byzantine plots in old Constantinople. The jokes are funnier - although in some places have a desperate Prachettian cod-mediaeval ring to them - the jesters, Fools and troubadours (ref ({{TLH}}) are happier and enjoy their vocation, and there is a Guild HQ which assigns both surface tasks (''"you are to proceed to Constantinople where you will be resident Fool to the Empress and the Princesses of the royal house of Byzantium"'') and hidden, clandestine, ones (''"while you are there you will assist and take a leading role in deposing the current Emperor, who is a drooling inbred dolt and not the man we need to keep out the Pope's crusaders on one side and the Turks on the other"'').<br />
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Fools serve both leaders in a war and can cross the lines freely to interchange information and updates, as well as acting as informal diplomats and heralds. This was apparently so in mediaeval times, as most people didn't take them seriously. (In Gordon's world, they also have useful Assassin skills, although outside the world of [[sloshi]], Lord Downey might have a demarcation issue with Doctor Whiteface.)<br />
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Reccomended!<br />
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* {{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Green|Michael Green}}==<br />
While perhaps a little bit dated now, Mike Green's series of comic "how-not-to-do-it" guides, dating from the 1950's and 1960's, are masterpieces of a certain sort of British humour. The ''Art of Coarse...'' books are based on the premise that only a precious few, a stellar minority, of us can ever be genuinely good and gifted at any given sporting or leisure pursuit. The rest of us... well, we are fated to be only Coarse practitioners, spear-carriers and extras in the theatre of life. Green illustrates this fact of essential glorious mediocrity over a series of books, dealing with topics as wide and varied as rugby football, sailing, golf, sex, and amateur dramatics. A Coarse Sailor is defined as one who, in extremis, forgets all nautical language, and shouts "For God's sake, turn left!" ''The Art of Coarse Acting'' develops the theme of am-dram in a manner that Vittoler's strolling players would recognise, and indeed there is a lengthy discourse on why Shakespeare's clowns and fools are so abjectly unfunny, ''however'' you say the lines. This may be familar to readers of Pratchett, although there is no certainty that he has read these books. I would not be surprised, though! A cast of recurring characters, including Green's totally loathsome friend Askew, help carry the stories, all drawn from his real-life experience. (Although Green was better at rugby than he claims - he turned out, if only once, for the Leicester first fifteen, which is akin to playing for a premiership soccer side.) The series was continued by Spike Jones, although his books are nowhere near as good as Green's. <br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Green|Michael Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Simon R. Green|Simon R. Green}}==<br />
For something a little darker, try the ''Nightside'' series by Simon R. Green. Imagine Neil Gaiman's ''Neverwhere'' tossed in a blender with the noir detective template and every bit of myth, fantasy and sci-fi you 've ever seen or read and you'll get the delicious smoothie that is Nightside. Set in a secret city-within-a-city at the heart of London, follow John Taylor, a hard-nose private-eye as he sorts out cases both horrifying and fantastic.<br />
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Green's definitely a name-dropper, and references tons of stories and myths, but his own characters and plots are original and fascinating, and utterly steeped in darkness. (Seriously... This guy's darker than Neil gets sometimes...) But it's all tied together with subtle English wit in the (almost obligatory to the noir genre) first-person narrative. (I've even heard a review with a favorable comparison to Terry, so there! Proof!) It's at least an M rating, but a heartily recommended read.<br />
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* {{wp|Simon_R._Green|Simon R. Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Shea|Robert Shea}} and {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} (Honorary #23)==<br />
A cautionary note: Shea and Wilson are rightly famed, in alternative circles, for the '''''Illuminatus!''''' series of novels. The trilogy is a joyously anarchic and irreverent romp through the whole scope of the occult, politics, conspiracy theory, secret societies, not-so-secret societies, et c, and sends up many genres of writing including the police procedural, horror, fantasy, political polemic (Ayn Rand gets a kicking), et c. <br />
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The novice approaching ''Illuminatus!'' for the first time should not try to understand what's going on, as that way lieth doom. It's like trying to appreciate opera ''and'' understand the lyrics. On a first read, just see it as a series of loosely connected episodes but don't try too hard to comprehend the relationship between them. Just accept as a unifying theme that unless something is done to stop it, the Eschaton is about to be Immanetized (ie, the world is about to end in a manner loosely reminiscent of {{GO}}. Hell, there's even a [[Kraken|Leviathan]] as well as some unpretty denizens of Earth's [[Dungeon Dimensions]]). <br />
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You get characters like the cynical street policeman who's seen too much; the hippies who really ARE about to be made streetwise (man) whether they want to be or not; the occupants of a submarine (which for some reason is painted bright yellow), whose mission is to prevent a war starting -initially out of a dispute over ownership of a [[Leshp|small, hitherto unregarded, island]]; the arch-villain Putney Drake, who controls all crime in the USA but has decided he wants to find his angel and go straight; the arch-manipulator Hagbard Celine who saves the world but has an agenda all of his own; 0023, the secret agent Britain is not proud of, and who gets all the weird X-files-like assignments that Bond sneers at; and a cast of eldrich supernatural entities, who are partly or wholly not human. Oh, and there are lots of Justified, Illuminated and Elucidated secret societies, with their own passwords and doorway ritual, administered by Brother Gatekeepers... <br />
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(As an aside. Flawed criminal mastermind Putney ''Drake'', who controls all organised crime in the USA but still wants more. Compare to Eoin Colfer's Artemis ''Fowl''?) <br />
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James Joyce is referenced many times and indeed even enters the book as a character at one point. This has to be said, as the structure of the book owes something to Joyce, the episodes stepping in and out of linear time and causal order. Therefore it's not an easy book to read but it rewards time, attention and frequent re-reading. <br />
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It's also very, very, funny. <br />
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I can guarantee you will never see the Reverend Billy Graham in quite the same light again after the manner of his cameo appearance! (Indeed, if the book has any conventional political stance, it can be discerned by the way the Republican/Religious Right Middle-American world-view is remorselessly sent up).<br />
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Slipping in under the radar, and done with humour, is a lot of interesting philosophical stuff. For instance, what is the nature of money? (Ref. {{MM}}). We blithely refer to political affiliation as being left-wing, right-wing, anarchist, communist, et c, but what do these convenient labels ''really'' mean? Does the conspiracy theory or the cock-up theory govern human history, or a mixture of both, and at bottom is there really a difference? What is conspiracy theory? Do you have to be paranoid to believe it exists? Is there any validity to magic, occult, and psychic thought and practice? Can one Leader really exert a difference? What is the mystical all-importance of the number 23, and all its associations, like the letter "W"? Did the events of ''The Lord of the Rings'' really happen, making Tolkien not so much an author as an observer? <br />
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This trilogy is believed to have influenced Terry Pratchett - there are just too many allusions and associations in the Discworld books. Recommended!<br />
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Shea and Wilson went on to write a second trilogy, '''''The Universe Next Door''''', that develops Illuminatus themes and ideas while being true to the original. This deals a lot with quantum physics and the multiple-worlds model of the multiverse, whilst remaining extremely funny.<br />
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Possibly far more accessible as novels, while still being in the spirit of ''Illuminatus!'', are the books Shea and Wilson wrote solo: '''''The Historical Illuminatus''''' trilogy, by Wilson, charts the life of Neapolitan wunderkind Sigismundo Celine in the latter part of the eighteenth century. There's sound history, intriguing discussions on the origins of Freemasonry, the decline of Catholicism, the Occult underground in Europe, why revolutions happen (lilac may or may not be included), and the ''true'' nature of scholarly footnotes at the bottom of the page. (they're a separate rogue novel, a kind of parasitic literary form trying to break into the reality of the main text) A jolly good story with believable characters, not without humour. Sigismundo Celine even invents a theoretically working steam locomotive - but evidently Naples and Paris are not the right orchards for this idea to blossom into steam-engine time, as he is derided and laughed out of university, much to his chagrin. <br />
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Shea wrote a series of novels where the themes of Illuminatus! are further explored, where West met East in the mediaeval crusades and the western world suddenly became too small for old orthodoxies. (''All Things Are Lights'' and ''Saracen!''). In a second series, the underlying themes of ''Illuminatus!'' are seen through the eyes and experiences of a Zen warrior-monk, in what on the surface of things is nothing more than a rip-roaring adventure story set in mediaeval Japan and Kublai Khan's China. ( ''Shiké: Last of the Zinja'' and ''Shiké: Last of the Dragons'')<br />
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Sadly, both authors are now deceased, having left their respective solo works unfinished, and their central characters hanging in limbo. (Although Robert Shea has placed many of his writings on his website, including completed and partially completed novels, so that they may be accessed for free). But - worth reading! Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Harry Harrison|Harry Harrison}}==<br />
Prodigious author of science-fiction, ranging from potboilers through more "serious" exploratory sci-fi works and counterfactual histories, to out-and-out science-fiction humour. <br />
Anyone who perceived the slightly tongue-in-cheek aspect of '''''Strata''''' and '''''Dark Side of the Sun''''' will appreciate the parodic quality of Harrison's '''''Bill, the Galactic Hero''''' series of comic sci-fi novels. These send up every aspect of the classic gung-ho shoot 'em up space operas, in which, generally, American domestic paranoia about those goddamn Commies was projected out into space and time, and gave all-American heroes the chance to stand and fight for those good ol' fashioned values and Mom's apple pie. (Is it a matter of time before the space enemy starts to manifest recognisable aspects of Middle Eastern culture?)<br />
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Harrison's funniest sci-fi comedies by far, though, are the nine or ten books of the '''''Stainless Steel Rat''''' series. In a future that has largely eliminated crime, Jim diGriz is one of the last crooks left in the galaxy. While he is not averse to the occasional bank robbery, he prefers other, largely non-confrontational and consensual, methods of separating people from their money. He is principled and ethical enough to absolutely refuse to kill in the line of business, and has a ball as he travels the galaxy, bilking, bunco-ing, cheating and generally con-man-ning in a thousand inventive ways. But one day he comes a cropper and is offered the choice of (i) having his mind re-programmed to remove all criminal tendencies; or (ii) working on the side of the angels, as a member of the Galactic "Special Corps", an elite unit of part-detectives, part-policemen, part special agents. Choosing to accept his Angel, in the form of the Machiavellian Special corps Director Inskipp, diGriz bites the bullet and reluctantly becomes poacher-turned-gamekeeper. His first assignment is to track down and arrest the beautiful and deadly Angelina, a woman with serious anger management issues and strong criminal tendencies. He does this so well they end up married, and adopt the nicknames of "Slippery Jim" and "Spike" for each other. (Do the descriptions remind you of anyone in the Pratchett character list?) Later books chart a marriage made in larcenous heaven, and the birth of twin sons who take after Mum and Dad... <br />
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''The Stainless Steel Rat For President'' relates a tale of DiGriz and his family collaborating to fix the elections on a repressive planet ruled by a tyrant and dictator. The most rigged, bent and skewed election in the Universe then ensues, with both parties doing what they can to gerrymander, fix and fiddle the vote. A real lesson, as these things have all apparently been done in Roundworld elections... this was especially prescient of Harrison, as the electronic vote-counting machinery is rigged to the point of falling over. And this was written a ''long'' time before a certain business in Florida...<br />
Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Harry_Harrison|Harry Harrison}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}}==<br />
Author of some very funny police procedurals, the Dalziel and Pascoe series (these have been adapted for TV), and the more humour-based adventures of Luton PI Joe Sixsmith. In an internet interview, Hill has identified Terry as one of his favourite authors. His novels are set in the real world, although there are occasional touches of the supernatural in the Dalziel and Pascoe books. Hill's stories can be odd (Jane Austen's ''Emma'' rewritten as a murder thriller, anyone?), but are always satisfying. A good place to start is probably the Dalziel and Pascoe book ''Dialogues of the Dead'' and its direct sequel ''Death's Jest-Book'', or the Joe Sixsmith novel ''The Roar of the Butterflies'', which pays tribute to P.G Wodehouse.<br />
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* {{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Holt|Tom Holt}}==<br />
Author of various parodies and stories based on mythology or other tales (sound familiar).<br />
First novel based on Wagner's ''Der Ring des Nibelungen'' is called ''Expecting Someone Taller''. Although most books are standalone, there is a series of sorts starting with ''The Portable Door'', which can arguably be termed a more adult and crankier Harry Potter in a cubicle farm.<br />
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Holt's books combine what might otherwise be called ''chick-lit'' from the male point of view - there is invariably a romance between a man and a woman who almost completely fail to communicate nor see the subtleties of the other gender's form of world-view - made even more complex by the intrusion of magic and the supernatural. The paradoxes of using magic are dealt with at great length, as are the staples of fantasy fiction and folklore. Old pantheons of Gods who nobody seriously believes in any more are shunted off to a ''very special'' old peoples' home on the south coast of England. They proceed to have ''Last of the Summer Wine'' style adventures involving lash-up machinery and half-remembered magical artefacts. ''You don't have to be evil to work here, but it helps'' develops the theme of Hell being a Human Resources department full of management bollocks-speak and continual assessments with Health and Safety Law making it impossible to go out and slay dragons. A very tall dwarf and a very short giant feature as characters...<br />
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* {{wp|Tom_Holt|Tom Holt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}}==<br />
To be more specific; for the non-British reader to better understand {{UA}} and the importance of football the autobiographical ''Fever Pitch'' is a must read. Written by a left-leaning intellectual well versed in feminist theory who to the amazement of his peers spent much of his formative years on Highbury's North Bank.<br />
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This specific recommendation by [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 20:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC), and backed by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC). It's a fantastically funny and searingly true book, but don't bother reading any of his others. Nanny Ogg's got a word for them. And it's not complimentary.<br />
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* {{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tanya Huff|Tanya Huff}}==<br />
The Keeper's Chronicles are a set of three (so far) books taking place in Canada, a sort of urban fantasy-comedy. More overt than Discworld but a lot of fun.<br />
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* {{wp|Tanya_Huff|Tanya Huff}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Barry Hughart|Barry Hughart}}==<br />
''Bridge of Birds'' - "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was."<br />
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Li Kao is a great scholar with a slight flaw in his character. His patron and servant, by turns, is Number Ten Ox, a peasant lad of unusual size and strength and more wit than anyone expects. The two engage in fantastic adventures in a version of Seventh-Century China unknown to historians. Annotators might find more amusement than even Pratchett provides (if they are serious students of Chinese history) trying to separate the research from the imagination.<br />
<br />
The similarity between Li Kao and another wrinkly little old man with unusual powers will strike most Pratchett readers. Don't tell the British press; they'll be off to Arizona to pester Mr. Hughart for his reaction to the outrageous plagiarism (again.)<br />
<br />
The series continues with ''Eight Skilled Gentlemen'' and ''The Story of the Stone'', but these are rare and expensive.<br />
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* {{wp|Barry_Hughart|Barry Hughart}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diana Wynne Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}}==<br />
The books are intended for a younger audience but I (and other Pratchett fans with the Tiffany Aching series) have often found so-called children's books to be extremely well written, often more so than their adult counterparts. One of the major themes in her books is the "multiverse" theory--explored in Pratchett as Quantum and [[Trousers of Time|The Trousers of Time]]. She has a fairly extensive bibliography; I would recommend starting with "Deep Secret" (written in a psuedo-epistolary style) or "Charmed Life" (in The Chronicles of Chrestomanci, Vol 1). "Charmed Life" has a more Tiffany Aching-esque feel to it. --[[User:Anatwork|Anatwork]] 05:27, 2 April 2007 (CEST).<br />
<br />
Diana Wynne Jones's ''The Tough Guide to Fantasyland'' is recommended by Terry, and includes many Discworld themes, such as swords, lost heirs, and Cities of Wizards. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 14:55, 7 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Diana_Wynne_Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stuart M. Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}}==<br />
This Russian-American author wrote a series of police procedurals with a difference. Set in the Soviet Union in the 1980's, Inspector Rostnikov is a veteran policeman in the Moscow criminal investigation force. A decent and honest copper who strives very hard to stay out of politics and just do the job that's in front of him, he contends with the everyday criminality of Moscow and fending off his out-of-touch superiors whose priorities are not his and who view his efficiency as a copper with deep suspicion. Rostnikov does not believe in the approved Leninist-Marxist doctrine that criminality in the Soviet state is perpetrated by a rump of degenerate anti-social elements, who will wither away as the Revolution triumphs and there is thus no more need for crime. He's a copper. He knows there will always be crime regardless of whose social philosophy runs the State. He just gets on with it, alongside a department of underfunded, under-resourced, coppers whose attitudes range form resigned cynicism through open-eyed idealism to a sort of robotic, golem-like obedience to the State. Indeed, his most trusted colleagues are the enthusiastic youngster Sasha and the robotic Party loyalist Karpo. The collapsing years of the Soviet Union act as the backdrop to the stories, a situation where hardly anyone truly believes in communism any more, the old political truths are repated almost as a comforting mantra, everyone can see the corruption and collapse going on all around them, but nobody, apart from political dissidents, dares to say so outright. Unfortunately the police chief known as The Wolfhound is a True Believer, and behind him is the wider KGB/MVD apparatus to which the civil police is accountable. The smoke and mirrors of the USSR's last years and the trials of routine policing in this atmosphere are drawn with a great deal of black humour. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 10:24, 19 November 2016 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Stuart_M_Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Fritz Leiber|Fritz Leiber}}==<br />
Classic sword & sorcery, but very often kind of tongue-in-cheek. TP has admitted that his early Discworld books, which can be seen as a parody of the S&S genre, were heavily inspired by Leiber's series about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. --[[User:Havelock|Havelock]] 02:20, 1 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
In fact, the principal city of the ''Fafhrd and Gray Mouser'' stories is named "Lankhmar", which is very similar to that of [[Ankh-Morpork]], and seems to share its social complexity.<br />
<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Leiber Fritz Leiber] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}}==<br />
Stanislaw Lem is a Polish writer of science fiction, some of which is very funny and whimsical. He has been lucky with English translations that capture the spirit of the original, and try to keep up with the word play. '''''[[Wikipedia:The_Cyberiad|Cyberiad]]''''' is a great place to start; it's a series of stories about the robot inventors Trurl and Klapaucius. Great illustrations by Daniel Mróz, too! Oh, and if you saw the George Clooney film version of Lem's great novel Solaris and that turned you off, just ignore it: see the original Russian film version instead.<br />
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* {{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Roy Lewis|Roy Lewis}}==<br />
Another suggestion from Terry Pratchett himself: he brought '''''The Evolution Man''''' to a British television show-and-tell as a book he wished he'd written. He said he'd read it in 1961 when it was nearly new and the influence on the thirteen-year-old writer is apparent.<BR><br />
The book describes a family of "ape-men" who are responsible for most of the social and technological development of the paleolithic era over one generation, somewhat like {{wp|Jean_Auel|Jean Auel's}} Cro-Magnons in ''Clan of the Cave Bear'' but lots funnier. It has also been published as ''What We Did to Father'' and ''Once Upon an Ice Age''. Recently republished in the US by Vintage Books.<br />
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* {{wp|Roy_Lewis|Roy Lewis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Dan McGirt|Dan McGirt}}==<br />
{{wp|Jason_Cosmo|Jason Comso}} series, a tongue-in-cheek approach to swords and sorcery.<br />
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* {{wp|Dan_McGirt|Dan McGirt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}}==<br />
Another author spoofed by Terry Pratchett ({{COM}}, {{E}}) and worth reading in his own right. <br />
<br />
Known in his early writing years for prolific production of potboilers - the Elric series are well worth reading as "straight", if high-camp, fantasy fiction and provide a lot of background detail, as to where some of the jokes in the earliest Discworld novels originate. <br />
<br />
Moorcock has tried his hand at farce and comic writing in the Pratchett mould: a novel called '''''The Chinese Agent''''', about a chaotic collision and an escalating series of misunderstandings between the world's secret services operating in London, is laugh-out-loud funny reading, with echoes of {{GO}}. <br />
<br />
Similarly, there is a short story called ''The Stone Thing (A Tale of Strange Parts)'' in the anthology '''''The Flying Sorcerers''''' (Souvenir Press, 1997) where Moorcock attempts to take the mickey out of his own portentous high-camp style of writing, before anyone else does.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST). This anthology also features a Terry Pratchett short story called '''''Turntables of the Night'''''. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
<br />
Also worth reading is the Von Bek series, beginning with ''The Warhound and the World's Pain'', and the Dancers at the End of Time series, which begins with ''An Alien Heat'', and is full of Oscar Wilde-esque humour. Both of these series are available in omnibus editions.<br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Christopher Moore|Christopher Moore}}==<br />
Hilariously funny novels, which while not exactly fantasy or science fiction have elements of both. Vampires, demons, cargo cults. Death turns up as well, although it's more of a Tooth Fairy-esque franchise than a single anthropomorphic personification. It's probably best to read them in publication order, as recurring characters develop over the novels. Start with ''{{wp|Practical_Demonkeeping|Practical Demonkeeping}}'', for an introduction to the barely sane inhabitants of Pine Cove.<br />
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* {{wp|Christopher_Moore_%28author%29|Christopher Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|John Moore|John Moore}}==<br />
Small but sweet novels set in a sort of alternate, anachronistic fairy-tale past. Humorous fantasy but with a definite American touch (a la Shrek). Whimsical, but with serious undertones.<br />
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* {{wp|John Moore (American author)|John Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}}==<br />
A founder member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]], Kim wrote '''Anno Dracula''', the definitive "what if..." book, starting from the utter failure of van Helsing and his well-intended dreamers to destroy Count Dracula. This irritating little diversion dealt with, Dracula then resumes his trip to England, and introduces himself at Court as a member of very long-standing Rumanian royal dynasty. Which is true, to a given value of true. Queen Victoria then invites her relative - well, he's European royalty, he ''must'' be related - to come and stay at Buck House, or Sandringham, maybe Balmoral, or the one on the Isle of Wight. Having been invited into the palace, Dracula, like a certain vampire noble in {{CJ}}, stays. And stays. And takes over England. And by extension the British Empire. (Does this sound like a certain Pratchett book yet?). He even marries the royal widow and becomes King-Emperor. Then invites the family over from Transylvania. The idea if a vampire dynasty ruling Britain, the degree of acceptance/rebellion it engenders, and how Dracula dealt with threats to British world rule, is continued in the following novels of the trilogy. .--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]]<br />
* {{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Naomi Novik|Naomi Novik}}==<br />
A fantasy dragon-story, set in the original 17th century Roundworld! The story isn't as funny as a Discworld novel, but Temeraire's dialogue (the dragon in question) can be very tongue-in-cheek! Could be a bit girlish book, but then again, you can very well be one! .--[[User:Charlie007|Charlie007]]<br />
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* {{wp|Naomi_Novik|Naomi Novik}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Pat O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}}==<br />
Although her book {{wp|The_Hounds_of_the_Morrigan|'''''The Hounds of the Morrigan'''''}} is aimed at children, like the best children's writers she creates a world which may also be inhabited by adults without their losing face. Set in West Galway, two children come to realise that despite St Patrick's best efforts, the old Irish gods and goddesses never went away. They just went ''over there a wee bit''. <br />
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The return of the Old Gods to modern (1970's?) Ireland has its threat: the Goddess who has awoken is the old and evil Morrigan, the triple-goddess of death and chaos and nightmare. She must be stopped...<br />
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O'Shea blends the ancient tales into a modern Irish landscape with deftness and humour. The children enter the ''other'' Ireland of myth and fable, and while at its worst the humour takes on a Disney-Oirish cuteness, the colour and texture of the book slowly darken into a mythological landscape Neil Gaiman would be proud of (not without humour). Recommended. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:15, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Pat_O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Douglas Adams|Douglas Adams}} (Honorary #42)==<br />
English comic author sometimes compared to Terry Pratchett, most famous for his ''Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' series, who passed away in May 2001.<br />
<br />
He developed a Pratchett-like idea in his novel ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Tea-Time_of_the_Soul The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul]'' (1988), where idiosyncratic private investigator Dirk Gently has to investigate a case involving the survival of the old Norse gods into the present day, and the nature of the dark pact they have to enter into to ensure their continued existence. This book echoes the Pratchett theme that a god may only survive so long as belief persists, and that there is no thing sadder than a god still doggedly hanging on after the need for him (or her) has ended.<br />
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The book also develops the concept of Thor (who is also encountered in ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_the_Universe_and_Everything Life, the Universe, and Everything]'' (1982) as an otherwise unnamed Thunder God trying to pull Trillian at a party, and being outwitted by Arthur Dent) as an over-muscled and somewhat thick god with exaggerated body language.<br />
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Some concepts are shared by Pratchett and Adams in their respective science-fiction work, most notably a debunking of the utopian ''Star Trek'' ideal that greater technological sophistication confers greater wisdom and a pacifistic world-view. <br />
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It can justly be said that Arthur Dent and [[Twoflower]] share a common characteristic: both are ignorant wanderers in a strange and foreign world, but the difference is that Arthur Dent is painfully and continually aware of how dangerous it all is, and of how much the settled inhabitants view him with condescending derision. (''Hey, monkeyman''!) Twoflower is blissfully unaware of the dangers and ambles unconcernedly through life. While it is true Arthur Dent does not have [[the Luggage]] to defend him, he is equipped with the Babel Fish (the equivalent is [[Rincewind]]'s ear for language) together with the resources embodied in Ford Prefect. Is Rincewind a parallel of Ford Prefect? Well, both have a vested interest in cheating death and running away from potential trouble by any means available. Just as Rincewind is constrained by the [[Patrician]]'s expressed wish to keep Twoflower alive and well, Ford must keep Arthur alive, as the last living being from planet Earth who may know the Question to the Answer. In both cases, a genuine friendship (of sorts) exists. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST) Seen otherwise, Arthur Dent shares some of ''Rincewind'''s view that he will be flung into a bad situation ''no matter what''.<br />
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* [http://www.douglasadams.com/ The official Douglas Adams website]<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams Douglas Adams] on Wikipedia<br />
* [http://h2g2.com/ h2g2] - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy<br />
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=={{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}}==<br />
Have you ever wondered about the description of Lancre Castle, in the early pages of {{WS}}, as ''having been designed by an architect who'd heard about Ghormenghast, but had done the best he can despite having neither the budget nor the space?'' Or about the description of the way time and space do weird things in the precincts of Unseen University, with the effect that ''it makes Ghormenghast look like a toolshed on a railway allotment?''<br />
<br />
Well, Peake is the source: his contribution to the fantasy fiction ouevre is the magnificent and thick-as-several-bricks ''Ghormenghast'' trilogy, a beautifully written account of life in a massive, rambling, castle-cum-city-cum-palace which has, er, accumulated over the course of several thousand years, with every new generation adding further bits to it as they see fit. Therefore it rambles a bit, like the most eccentric English stately home, and entire rooms, floors, even wings, have been lost over the centuries. <br />
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Peake richly describes the settings and populates the Castle with a civilization of grotesques, of whom the sanest and most sympathetic is possibly the good Doctor Prunesquallor, a man who like Cosmo Lavish is burdened with a dificult and sometimes embarrassing sister. <br />
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The social system is a suffocating heirarchy where a royal family rules at the top, and everyone else is born into a rigid caste system where even their very jobs are mapped out for them at birth. There is no way to change one's preordained social status, and until the advent of a rebellious kitchen scullion named Steerpike, nobody attempts to. At first a hero deserving sympathy, Steerpike climbs literally and metaphorically out of the depths of the castle kitchens and begins a calculated advance to the very top. His character subtly changes as his ambition grows, and it is clear he is seeking to depose the ruling family. After several murders, the former hero has become a monster: he is indirectly responsible for the death of the heroine Fuchsia, whose brother, Titus Groan, heir to Ghormenghast, resolves to destroy him. <br />
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A magnificent piece of fantasy and "baroque humour", a must-read for anyone into fantasy fiction, and another source of ideas and in-jokes for TP! ({{P}} is thought to be heavily influenced by Peake's characters. See [[Book:Pyramids/Annotations|here]]).<br />
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'''January 2010''': Breaking news. A fourth '''Gormenghast''' novel, started by Peake and finished, at least in draft outline, by his widow, has been discovered among a batch of the late author's papers. There is a possibility that it will see print by 2011. More here:- [http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/15/gormenghast-sequel-mervyn-peake-widow?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+theguardian%2Fbooks%2Frss+(Books)|More_here]. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 02:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Philip Pullman|Philip Pullman}}==<br />
An obvious choice, perhaps, but if you're looking for the fantastic and not just the hilarious, ''{{wp|His_Dark_Materials|His Dark Materials}}'' is a fabulous trilogy. It's probably the best fantasy since Tolkien. Terry Brooks, {{wp|Dragonlance|Weis and Hickman}}, {{wp|The_Dark_Is_Rising|Susan Cooper}} have all been and gone; JK Rowling's had a good go, but this is by far the best written of all of them. I know it's just become a film, but read the books first. The metaphysics is cool too. The idea of multiple worlds and realities (parallel universes?) could have come from [[Ponder Stibbons]] himself... --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 14:05, 23 December 2007 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Philip_Pullman|Philip Pullman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Rankin|Robert Rankin}}==<br />
Much kookier than Pratchett, Rankin has a love affair with running gags and breaking down the fourth wall, has a style that seesaws between grandiose and I'll-break-yer-teeth, and his books generally involve small British towns and aliens, Hell, Elvis, time travel, or all of them at once. Described as "stark raving genius". His most recent book, ''The Educated Ape'', has a chimpanzee for its lead character who is oddly reminiscent of a certain orang-utan, thwarting misdeeds in a Victorian Steampunk London assisted by scientists, assassins, and wizards. Hmm. <br />
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* {{wp|Robert_Rankin|Robert Rankin}} on Wikipedia<br />
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<br />
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=={{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}}==<br />
A cartoonist, who created the St Trinians schoolgirls, as well as the Molesworth stories (in fact written by Geoffrey Willians) and several other books, like an illustrated adaption of Gilbert and Sullivan's work for print ''Dick Dead Eye''.<br />
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* {{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}} on Wikipedia; {{wp|Geoffrey Willians|Geoffrey Willians}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}}==<br />
Mostly set in mid to late 20th century England, Tom Sharpe's novels range from smile-inducing to gut-wrenchingly funny on my personal humour scale, with "Ancestral Vices", "Porterhouse Blue" and "Blott on the Landscape" being the most relentlessly funny, to my mind. He holds no subject sacred, and his humour is much more brutal than, say, P. G. Wodehouse's or Terry's, but if you can stomach the wholesale and ruthless slaughter of sacred cattle and a certain amount of crudity, he can be a very funny author indeed. Common themes are weak-willed men, ferocious women, sexual perversions, incompetent academics and eccentric peers. The ''Wilt'' series deals with higher academia and the wranglings of an out-of-touch academic bureaucracy, concerned more with prestige and power than the delivery of education. The ''Piemburg'' farces are set in apartheid South Africa and centre on an inept and incompetent police force, which comes over as the City Watch shorn of its redeeming graces - it even has its own Findthee Swing and a dedicated "Cable Street Particulars" of the old sort. Secret policeman Liutnant Verkramp is obsessed with measuring and calibrating to assess the precise degree of black African corruption in the white race and has his own interesting character tics; the unspeakable Konstabel Els, a man who views being in the police force as a licence to get away with lots of crime, is a monster all on his own who loves very large powerful weapons - and their frequent satisfying use. <br />
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* {{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jonathan Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}}==<br />
Author of the Bartimaeus Trilogy. These books are very witty with a superb use of footnotes. Told from the point of view of a wisecracking demon summoned by British magicians.<br />
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* {{wp|Jonathan_Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}}==<br />
The father of modern science fiction and sometime writer of wonderful fantasy short stories. He is often mentioned for his apparent prediction of the DNA molecule in his novella, ''The Golden Helix'' .<br />
Sturgeon was the kind of professional writer, like TP, who could knock off an assignment from elsewhere with imagination and force (e.g. {{wp|I, Libertine|''I, Libertine''}}), and he has similarly been accused of literature.<BR><br />
Look for {{wp|More Than Human|''More Than Human''}}, {{wp|The Dreaming Jewels|''The Dreaming Jewels''}} (aka The Synthetic Man), {{wp|Without Sorcery|''Without Sorcery''}}, ''E. Pluribus Unicorn'', ''Caviar'', but any collection you stumble across will contain a gem or two.<br />
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* {{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}}==<br />
Like Edward Conlon above, Wambaugh is an ex-beat cop turned novelist. His first novel '''the New Centurions''' was written in 1971 whilst still a serving cop, and followed a group of misfits from police academy into their first probationary year on the beat on Los Angeles streets. A theme of New Centurions is the gradual build-up to a city-wide riot beginning in its equivalent of [[The Shades]] that put Los Angeles on the world map for all the wrong reasons. His fledgling cops have to deal with this as best they can - think {{MAA}} here. (In real life, the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots|the Watts Riot] of 1965). The work for which he is most famous, '''The Choirboys''', employs the same combination of black humour and gritty realism, and is known to have influenced Terry Pratchett in creating the Ankh-Morpork City Watch. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:36, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}}==<br />
The ''Dragonlance'' series of books are quite possibly the best all-out quintessential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien. A normal premise (a relatively unassuming band of friends &ndash; who happen to be a warrior, a wizard, a knight, a half-elf, an elven princess, a hobbit-like creature, a dwarf and so on) become involved in a quest, and end up saving the world. Kitsch as that sounds, the story is genuinely enthralling and the first series spawned a massive TLR push, and there are now in excess of 50 books, Dungeons & Dragons-style RPGs &c all based on them. Go read - the first three (''Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning'') are wonderful. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:21, 15 August 2007 (CEST)<br />
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The {{wp|Darksword|''Darksword''}} trilogy and the {{wp|Rose_of_the_Prophet|''Rose of the Prophet''}} trilogy are well worth reading, too. They are a lot more original than any of the ''Dragonlance'' books. The seven {{wp|The_Deathgate_Cycle|''Deathgate''}} books are well written, too.<br />
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* {{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}}==<br />
Wodehouse's stories feature light humor, similar to Pterry's earlier works. Flashes of Wodehouse whimsy appear regularly and young Pratchett heroes like [[Moist von Lipwig]] resemble PGW's ''Psmith''. Willikins the butler, of course, comes in a straight line from the famous ''Jeeves''. There are a number of direct references, including, in *Hogfather* a suggestion that the Hogfather's pigs be urged on with the cry "Pighoo--ooey!" an echo of a Wodehouse story by the same name. <br />
<br />
Also like Wodehouse is the development of several distinct groups of stories with their own casts and localities. The Blandings books are set at Blandings Castle and usually have to with the Earl of Emsworth's obsession with his pig; the Mulliner Stories are set in the Angler's Rest and are increasingly tall tales about Mr. Mulliner's relatives; the Drones Club is set in London among a set of truly hapless, albeit wealthy young men.<br />
<br />
The turn of phrase is very similar: Neil Gaiman has pointed out that he, PTerry, Douglas Adams, and Jasper Fforde can all do it. Pratchett goes into darker territory: the most threatening figures in Wodehouse are aunts. But it can be argued that both Wodehouse and Pratchett present a view of the world that is ultimately accepting and tolerant.<br />
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* {{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Patricia C. Wrede |Patricia C. Wrede }}==<br />
Humorous fantasy in a Candide-like style (very short chapters with very long titles). Her {{wp|Enchanted Forest Chronicles|''Enchanted Forest Chronicles''}} explore what happens to a beautiful 16-year-old princess who does not WANT to get married to a handsome prince. Ostensibly written for children, it has a ''Harry Potter''-like style that can be enjoyed by adults (and was written ''way'' before ''Harry Potter'', btw!). [[User:Kellyterryjones|Kellyterryjones]] 00:47, 24 December 2007 (CET) She has also written a series of fantasy books set in an alternate frontier America. [[User:Tiffany_Aching|Tiffany_Aching]] 10:43, 17 July 2014<br />
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Wrede Patricia C. Wrede] on Wikipedia<br />
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[[Category:Reading suggestions]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Fan-Art&diff=30172Fan-Art2019-07-04T10:07:06Z<p>AgProv: Advisory concerning Rule 34</p>
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<div><br />
This wiki has been criticised elsewhere for the perceived indifferent quality of the illustrations and artwork we have put together over the years to accompany the articles. While we can't change that overnight, at least we can post links to those sites where Pratchett fans have gone that extra step beyond fan-fiction, and have presented their images for public viewing. <br />
<br />
It's important to stress that while these may not be commercial images in the Kidby, Kirby or Grant sense, they are still the intellectual property of their owners and cannot be reproduced here without the express permission of their creators. (I hope to be able to persuade a few people to allow us to reproduce their art, subject to the usual conditions.) <br />
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In the meantime, why not browse:-<br />
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*[http://ankhmorporkers.deviantart.com/ Ankh-Morporkers on deviantArt]<br />
*[http://the-discworld-guild.deviantart.com/ The Discworld Guild on deviantArt]<br />
*[http://www.nocturnalsoldier.org/Tealin/xhp/disc/index.html Discworld & Pratchett Paraphernalia by Tealin]<br />
*[http://puggdogg.blogspot.ca/ The Art of Lindsay Walker aka Puggdogg]<br />
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Please be aware that as with [[Fan fiction]], Sturgeon's Law applies:- in the absence of kindly editors, some of it will be from people who are to art and design what William McGonnagal was to poetry. But a goodly quantity of it is good, outstanding or even superlative. Browse and enjoy!<br />
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Also beware, unless your interests lie there (and who are we to judge), and especially if you're accessing the internet from work - there is a lot of Discworld fan-art out there, a LOT, which comes under the heading of Rule 34. If you think all the slash stuff about characters is pushing the written word a bit too far... well, some of it comes illustrated. Graphically so. You have been advised. <br />
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==See Also==<br />
*[[Fandom]]<br />
*[[Fan fiction]]<br />
*[[Fan Films]]<br />
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{{stub}}<br />
[[Category:Fandom|Fan-Art]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Undertaking&diff=29854Undertaking2018-11-26T00:27:11Z<p>AgProv: Updating and revising</p>
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<div>'''Caution: speculation notice'''. This article deals with things and events which might in some other phase of the [[Multiverse]] have been revealed in a [[Book:Raising Taxes|book]] now lost in L-Space and fated to remain unpublished. While based on firm data from previous books, its assumptions passed into the Desert with [[Terry Pratchett|the Author]] and remain speculative.<br />
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== ==<br />
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[[File:Amgu_map.png|350px|thumb|right|A rendition of a possible future system, set about 50 years in the future (from canon “now”). Liberties have been taken with names of places, given the time gap. For instance, Dolly Sisters has become Dollisters, the Whore Pits has become Harpits. Locations are based on the canonical Ankh-Morpork map. Note that the logo is actually octarine – your monitor may not calibrated to display that color properly.]][[Vetinari]]'s grand plan to take [[Ankh-Morpork]] into the future. <br />
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The potential is there, in a city full of innovative talent, to really make this a city to be proud of. Recent rediscoveries of long-forgotten but still serviceable relics like the [[Cloaca Maxima]] suggest that for the first time in many thousands of years, the city may end up with a sewerage system that ''works''. Combine the extant drainage system, represented by the Cloaca, with [[Sir Charles Lavatory]]'s patent system and [[Harry King]]'s ability to make brass out of muck, and you have a modern network of sewers which obviates the need to chuck it (i) out of the window, or (ii) into the Ankh, or (iii) both, and ''at the very least'' there will be cleaner streets to walk on. As well as a very profitable recycling system situated far downwind of the city. <br />
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Recently, visiting [[Dwarfs]] excavated an impressive and far-reaching network of tunnels under the city, following an agenda of their own. Although these Dwarfs are now long-gone (apart from those facing the justice of [[Vetinari]] and the [[Low King]]), their tunnels remain, no doubt tended by native Ankhian Dwarfs who in their very dwarvish natures would be reluctant to allow Dwarf-made underground works to go to ruin. (Perhaps maintaining these tunnels allows Ankh-Morpork's Dwarf population a harmless, productive and above all, free-to-the-city way of safely connecting to their inner Dwarf). Any Dwarfs performing this work would no doubt be aided by the impressive array of drainage and pumping devices that the builders left behind when they departed in something of a hurry, the most notable of which would be the [[Technomantic Devices]] seized by Vetinari under the legal principle of ''Eminent Domain'', or [[Guild of Lawyers|Quia Sic Ego Dico]] (Because I Say So), supported by a secondary argument of ''Acquiris Quodcumquae Rapis'' (You Get What You Grab). No doubt Mr [[Slant]] has laid out the City's legal case in a finely-argued and impeccably presented case to the [[Low King]], bound up in the usual thoughtful legally binding red tape. <br />
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The Dwarfs are no doubt aided by the [[Artificers' Guild]], to whose care Vetinari has turned over the Devices. Forward thinkers have noted that the Dwarfs laid rails in these tunnels, so as to most efficiently manipulate and remove wagons full of spoil to disposal points. What if, the thought goes, similar wagons might be built on the same principle to transport humans between points of interest in the city - but ''Underground'', below the congested streets....<br />
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To do all this requires money. Vetinari has set the ball rolling by reforming the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] and the [[Ankh-Morpork Mint|Royal Mint]] and is now virtually guaranteed a loan of half a million dollars. Other forward-thinking citizens such as Harry King have also been investing heavily in areas of their own professional expertise. <br />
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But loans need to be repaid, which is why Vetinari has plans to reform the [[Taxmaster|taxation]] system, as only through [[Raising Taxes|raising taxes]] can a Government fulfil its fiscal obligations and prime the pump for future prosperity.<br />
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[[File:undertaking.jpg|350px|thumb|Another speculative Mapp]]<br />
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It is all about the city, as Vetinari remarks to [[Moist von Lipwig]] - nothing is too great a sacrifice or risk when the city and the future Vetinari foresees for it is involved, even going to the lengths of employing known criminals in the hopes that they will succeed, and if they die trying it's no skin off the city's collective nose as said criminal was sentenced to death anyway.<br />
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Moist takes this adage to great lengths, emblazoning the legend '''AD URBEM PERTINET''' on the new paper money. This has to have given even Vetinari a moment of pleasure.<br />
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[[Category:Discworld concepts]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:Pyramids/Annotations&diff=29841Book:Pyramids/Annotations2018-11-04T23:01:00Z<p>AgProv: New idea</p>
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<div>'''''On Djelibeybi'''''<br />
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As well as the more obvious parallel with the much-loved sweetie proffered by Time Lord Doctor Who (a man skilled in manipulating and recycling Time), it is perhaps worth noting that in Egypt and Libya on Roundworld, the long flowing robe of the Arab male is called the ''gelebeia''.<br />
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Corgi pb (1990 first edition) p35:- put on the spot by Mericet, who has just subjected Cheesewright to dark sarcasm, and challenged to name the invisible enemies of the Assassin who will dog at his heels, Pteppic lists them as ''"Ill-preparedness, carelessness, lack of concentration, and poor maintainence of tools. Oh, and over-confidence, sir"''<br />
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This brings to mind a British Army training mantra, summarised as ''The Rule of P's'':-<br />
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'''''Practice, Preparation and Planning Prevent Piss-Poor Performance!'''''<br />
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Not, of course, that the Guild would ever phrase it like that...<br />
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It has been suggested that the parents of Pteppic are a direct and deliberate parallel of the central characters in Mervyn Peake's ''Gormenghast'' trilogy. The setting is a several-thousand-year-old state ([[Djelibeybi]]/Gormenghast) which has fossilised into a tyrannical regime of age-old rituals which nobody dares to question the modern significance or relevance of; the Rituals are ferociously guarded and imposed by a fossilised Loremaster who embodies the tradition of the state in his own being (Barquentine/[[Dios]]). Most of the free income goes into endlessly maintaining old structures or building new ones to the same pattern (Pyramids). The ruling family consists of a rather vague and introspective Count/Pharaoh, married to a woman working on instinct who loves cats (the Countess/[[the Great Cow of the Arch of the Sky|Artela]]). Of their children, the son (Titus Groan/[[Pteppic]]) goes out into a world not ruled by tradition and groaning under the weight of the past to see how things are done elsewhere, specifically in a fairly nearby but unspecified Big City. The daughter (Fuchsia/[[Ptraci]])is also intensely dissatisfied with her lot and, if given a chance, would try to change it for the better -- in ''Pyramids'', she manages it, in ''Gormenghast'', she dies in ambiguous circumstances. Pteppic is also an archetype of anti-hero Steerpike, in that he climbs to the highest point in the Kingdom and brings about its dissolution (Steerpike dies trying in ''Gormenghast'', but at this point, he has mutated into an embittered scarred and burnt villain who, interestingly enough, [[Maskerade|conceals a mutilated face behind a mask]]... another Roundworld fable creeping in here?)<br />
In his final insanity, the Count in ''Gormenghast'' imagines himself to be an owl; Pteppic's father just before his death is overcome with the essence of the noble seagull, the Divine and Royal Bird. <br />
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Another, er, literary association: the final scenes where Ptraci asserts her authority as Pharaoh and really puts her foot down. It occurs to me that this has been illustrated, if not written down. Readers familiar with Goscinny and Uderzo's Asterix books will perceive the interpretation of Ptraci as intractable and rather stroppy comes straight out of '''''Asterix and Cleopatra'''''. Read it -– there are some lovely illustrations! I'm sure Pterry got his character of Ptraci, at least as ruler, from Cleopatra as she appears in the ''band desinée''. <br />
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The hieroglyph for "feather mattress" is a hippo's bottom. Recall the long-running advert on British TV for Silentnight mattresses -- using a hippo in bed as its exemplar of excellence regardless of the sleeper's dimensions. <br />
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Here's another interesting one. We have two separated people (Pteppic and Ptraci) who get together in difficult circumstances -- in fact he rescues her from a prison cell and certain death. At this point in the story they have no idea they are siblings. Aid is given by a sentient being whose mind runs on mathematical logic (YouBastard the camel). They travel on a deceptively fast and manoeuvreable ship, used for fast smuggling of undeclared goods, for which the navies of two continents are on high alert. The captain is a raffish pirate with an eye for the ladies (Chidder) supported by a huge hulking hairy brute (the first mate with the dubious tattoos).<br />
There is immediate LUST between Chidder and Ptraci which plays out as arguments. This ill-assorted crew assists the Hero (Pteppic) in throwing down an oppressive Theocracy/"Empire". <br />
Eventually the heroine winds up running the empire, probably marrying the pirate, while the Hero goes off and does something else... <br />
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Is this story arc reminiscent of anything at all? <br />
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* The Ephebian god turning himself into a "golden shower" parodies Zeus turning himself into a "shower of gold" to impregnate {{wp|Danae|Danae}}. "{{wp|Urolagnia|Golden shower}}", on the other hand, is slang for urinating on someone for mutual sexual pleasure. This is why the expression "raised interesting questions about everyday night life in sophisticated Ephebe" in Teppic's mind.<br />
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* "THIS? IT'S A SCYTHE." -- Death reaps King Teppicymon's soul with a scythe, even though he normally uses a sword for kings.<br />
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A real devious link between {{M}} and {{P}} that never made the apf:<br />
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{{M}}, Corgi pb P247: "[the elephant] sniffed the distant dark continent of Klatch on the night breeze and, tail raised, followed the ancient call of home."<br />
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{{P}}, Corgi pb P147: "But the stables now held ... an elderly elephant whose presence was a bit of a mystery"<br />
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Actually confirmed by [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.fan.pratchett/%22trevor$20curry%22/alt.fan.pratchett/bxoOB7db6Lw/Di7jJ4QrFNsJ Terry]<br />
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The Djelibeybian Pharoahs' shared dream, a bizarre nocturnal fantasy concerning seven cows playing trombone. Reminiscent of Genesis Chapter 41: <br />
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''Two years later the king[a] of Egypt dreamed he was standing beside the Nile River. 2 Suddenly, seven fat, healthy cows came up from the river and started eating grass along the bank. 3 Then seven ugly, skinny cows came up out of the river and 4 ate the fat, healthy cows. When this happened, the king woke up.''<br />
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and perhaps of [http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/joseph+and+the+amazing+technicolor+dreamcoat/song+of+the+king+seven+fat+cows_20625835.html a certain piece of musical theatre] concerning an amazing raincoat.<br />
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Corgi pb (1990 first edition) p116: note the typo of a very minor character's name: Prince [[Imtebos]] becomes Imbetos in the same line. Doesn't matter too much, as the prince never appears again... This error may appear only in the first few print runs of the novel (1989-90) as good authority advises me it's been corrected in later editions.<br />
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Corgi pb (1990 first edition) p184:- ''There was a monstrous splash out in the river. Tzut, the Snake-Headed God of the Upper Djel, surfaced... Then Fhez, the Crocodile-Headed God of the Lower Djel, erupted beside him and made a spirited attempt at biting his head off. The two submerged in a column of spray and a minor tidal wave which slopped over the balcony...''<br />
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This echoes another mythological battle and a serious demarcation dispute between two mythological creatures. In the Welsh mythological cycle, the Mabinogion, the wizard Merlin is called to referee a dispute between two dragons, whose subterranean war persists in throwing down the King's new castle. Merlin witnesses the fight, and explains that the two dragons, each with its teeth locked in the throat of the other in perpetual war, represent the battle for the land of Britain between the red dragon of Wales and the white dragon of the invading Saxon. Nothing of permanent worth, said Merlin, may be built in Britain until the English and the Welsh cease their eternal strife and learn to live as neighbours. The English are now too numerous for the Welsh to throw out and the English must realise they can never completely take Wales. (this was first written about 800 AD).<br />
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Also note that a "fez" is a traditional Middle Eastern hat which has become synonymous with the sort of amusing stereotypes and institutional mockery beloved of Brits.<br />
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Corgi PB (1990 first edition) p265:- ''Teppic sank on one knee and, out of desperation, raised the knife in both hands.'' This echoes the position and rationale of the weathercock on the highest point of the [[Assassins' Guild]] building: a silhouetted assassin with knife poised to inhume the very wind. Poised on top of the Great Pyramid, at the highest point of the Kingdom, Pteppic is about to perform the greatest act of assassination ever: an entire Kingdom, seven thousand years of history, ''and'' an entire pantheon of gods. (And also, by default and by their implicit consent, a total of 1,300 monarchs... simultaneously.) The Guild's collective heart must have swelled with pride...<br />
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As yet unsorted annotation, originated by David N Priestley, and quoted with permission: One of the best throw-away references is in {{P}}. There's a nod to vintage children's gameshow Crackerjack. Pteppic is given an armful of ceremonial objects, including the Cabbage of Vegetative Increase. For reference, the finale of Crackerjack consisted of the lucky winner of earlier rounds being given armfuls of prizes, but they only got to keep what they could hold onto. If an item was dropped they got given a cabbage to hold onto as well. Three cabbages and you were out.<br />
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[[Category:Annotations|Pyramids/Annotations]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:The_Truth/Annotations&diff=29813Book:The Truth/Annotations2018-10-14T17:09:26Z<p>AgProv: Illuminatus! reference.</p>
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<div>The title of the book might be a nod towards the official Communist party news-paper named "Pravda" (In Russian -"The Truth"). There is an old Soviet-era joke about Russia's two state newspapers: ''There's never any truth in Izveztiya (The News) and you'll never find any news in Pravda (The Truth)''. This may echo the later rivalry between the staid and slightly pompous [[Ankh-Morpork Times]], and its downmarket rival the [[Ankh-Morpork Inquirer]], which emphasises rumours and trivial non-stories at the expense of strict accuracy. <br />
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Miss Cripslock in The Truth: Just going through the APF shows that her father was mentioned in as an engraver in ''Maskerade'' (see annotation for p.11 there), although this may be her grandfather, on whose behalf she gives William a ringing slap, whilst her well-crafted bosom heaves at him. Which was he concentrating on, we wonder...<br />
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William de Worde's career path appears to mirror that of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Carolus Johann Carolus], who made a living handwriting newsletters for his clients before purchasing a printing press and starting what is recognised ([http://archive.is/8zV3 ref]) as the world's first newspaper.<br />
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Thre incident where William first encounters the Dwarfs and their printing press and gets the letter "R" branded in the middle of his forehead, albeit temporarily. in 17th - 18th century England and possibly elsewhere, a common punishment was to brand an offender with a letter denoting what their crime was. One who disseminated slander (verbally) or libel (in print), one deemed to be a habitual liar and ''rumour-monger'', could have the letter "R" burnt into their face - a humiliting punishment they would carry for life. Apparently this happened to publishers of broadsheets who printed things that annoyed influential people who could command such a sanction...<br />
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Doubleday hardback p39)<br />
:''"Why's there a bigger box for the 'e''s?''<br />
:''"'cos that's the letter we use most of."''<br />
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This figures: the "mnemonic" in English usage, for letter frequency, is apparently ETAOINSHRDLU, where "e" is by far and away the most commonly occurring letter, with the rest ranked afterwards in order of frequency. Apparently the remaining 14 letters are all of such low relative frequency that it isn't worthwhile committing their order to memory: if you can crack these first 12, they occur often and frequently enough in any English discourse for the cryptographer to be able to make an intelligent stab at the structure of the rest. <br />
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--AgProv 16:48, 3 April 2008 (CEST) <br />
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-Etaoin Shrdlu was the name of a bookworm (larger than .303 cal.) in Walt Kelly's ''Pogo'' (the greatest comic strip in history). Wikipedia agrees with Mr. Kelly on the relative frequency of t and a. --Old Dickens 19:15, 3 April 2008 (CEST) <br />
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(Doubleday hardback p43)<br />
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''"...I wish to avoid any low-level difficulties at this time..." '' In the middle of a discourse about Dwarfs being a very hard-working and valuable ethnic grouping in the city, is it possible that Vetinari has just slipped in a sizeist joke, possibly to see how well Goodmountain and Bodony, faced with a business opportunity, can hold their tempers? <br />
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"wishing to avoid low-level difficulties" could well mean "at a time of great potential difficulty with the Dwarfs, it will do no harm to be seen actively sponsoring a Dwarf-owned business, and giving my personal blessing to their prospering in this city." <br />
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* Or possibly he was being culture-savvy, as dwarfs consider "low level" to be ''superior'' to high. This aspect of dwarf thinking is examined more deeply in ''Unseen Academicals'', and might explain why the Campaign for Equal Heights is mostly made up of humans: dwarfs who haven't absorbed human concepts of high-equals-good wouldn't realize that many sizeist jokes are intended to be insulting.<br />
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at this point there was speculation that this book might be placed differently in the chronology because of Vetinari's reference to "troubles in Uberwald". (which hinted that this was prior to the resolution of said troubles in {{TFE}}. However, there are ''always'' going to be troubles of one sort or another in Uberwald, as {{T!}} and {{RS}} demonstrated. so speculation concerning chronology removed as having been proven irrelevant. <br />
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If nothing else, it supports the contention that in the latter Discworld novels, events are happening faster and faster and frequently overlap between books - look at the fit of {{TOT}} and {{NW}}, for instance. <br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback p46)''''' Even in newsletter days, William could rely on Watchmen providing inside information in return for favours. Fred Colon's stated perk is "a drink". By comparision, when members of the Metropolitan police furnish Britain's national press with inside information or services over and beyond the call of duty, the small financial incentive that went the other way was referred to as a "drinkie". <br />
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''The Truth Shall Make You Free'' (or fret)... a quote from Abraham Lincoln, which was taken up as a line in the ''Battle Hymn of the Republic''--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:54, 12 July 2007 (CEST) - although Abe was himself quoting - John 8:31-2: "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "<br />
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''William de Worde'' Wynkyn de Worde (originally Jan van Wynkyn) was pivotal, along with the more-widely-known Caxton, in introducing printing to Britain. All the national newspaper were (until very recently) printed at Fleet Street in London. Mr. Tuttle Scrope, put up as the replacement Patrician for Vetinari, runs a shop that sells Leatherwork, "... and rubber work... and feathers... and whips... and... little jiggly things" and was, presumably, the supplier for Sir Joshua Lavish in Making Money, who had a cabinet full of such supplies.<br />
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"But news is mainly what someone somewhere doesn't want you to put in the paper--" A saying by Lord Northcliffe, a late 19th-early 20th century news magnate in the UK (who, at one point, owned the London newspaper ''The Times''): "News is what someone wants to suppress. Everything else is advertising."<br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback pp 203-205)''''':- There is a possible contradiction and continuity error across books. In {{CJ}}, Vlad de Magpyr asserts:- ''"Everyone knows that cutting off a vampire's head is internationally acceptable"''. In argument with Agnes Nitt, he states that decapitating a vampire is, on its own, a surefire way of slaying a vampire regardless of its georgraphical or ethnic origin. This certainly suffices for the Count de Magpyr at the end of the book. Yet, here we have the contradiction that Otto Chriek is decapitated by Mr Pin. Otto's head and body remain separately alive and sentient, and Otto is able to calmly issue directions to place his head where his body can reach it so that he can re-attach it. This he does, by an effort of will and his own vampiric physiognomy. He then remarks, after saying it "stings a bit*", that decapitation alone is not sufficient - it requires a stake through the heart, as well. The Count de Magpyr does not seem to know this trick. Perhaps for the de Magpyrs, decapitation alone is sufficient, and Vlad is erroneously arguing from his family back to all vampires? Otherwise, a small error in continuity arises.<br />
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( * - a reference to a Monty Python sketch? Where Eric Idle plays a stiff-upper-lip British officer whose leg has just been bitten off and eaten by a tiger, asserting cheerfully that "it stings a bit, sir, but nothing to get bothered about!")<br />
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** Possibly the Count was unable to heal his neck injury because of having "been Weatherwaxed". Certainly the vampires who succumbed to that effect in {{CJ}} found their ability to fly was impaired, so it may have hindered some of their other powers as well. - Sharlee<br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback p254)''''' Another of those obscure song references. Sacharissa and Rocky realise they aren't alone in the deWorde mansion. They can hear raucous singing and glass clattering. It is coming from behind a ''Green Door''. What's behind the Green Door? - a question asked, in song, by Jime lowe, Frankie Vaughan, Bill Haley and the Comets, the Goons (or at least Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan) and Shakin' Stevens. The "Green Door" is also used in slang to denote levels of access to information - if you are on the wrong side of a green door, there is a higher level to which you have not been given security clearance. <br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback p258)''''' "Spit or swallow, thought William, the eternal conundrum." Terry Pratchett has a habit of throwing in random punchlines from silly or sometimes eyebrow-raising jokes, perhaps just to see who notices. "Spit or swallow" refers to... ermmm... an ''intimate practice'' and the social etiquette that goes along with it, at least for the active partner. Those who know what it means will grin quietly to themselves and read on; for those who don't, it will go right over their heads and remain un-noticed. Therefore Terry wins whichever way. Although how a well-brought up young lad like William knows this... Sacharissa might perhaps require some explanation of the phrase, ideally with diagrams and/or an understanding member of the Seamstresses' Guild to assist. (Ah. Even as these words are written I begin to see how William, a journalist interested in words whose profession involves talking to everybody, knows the phrase. As no doubt Sacharissa will if she remains a journalist). <br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback p269)''''' Interestingly enough, in the mood of hysteria following the fire that destroyed the press , William and Sacharissa are discussing ideas to maximise revenue from the printing presses during down-time, and come up with ideas for glossy magazines. Sacharissa muses...<br />
:"Ring, yes. Now that's another thing. There are all the dwarfs in the city. We could produce a magazine for them. I mean... what's the modern dwarf wearing this season?" ({{TT}}, page 269)<br />
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Is this foreshadowing either [[Bu-Bubble]] or Shatta in{{UA}}? And in {{MM}}, Gladys the feminised golem is also a devoted reader of a new ladies' magazine... here, Sacharissa also proposes a magazine tentatively called [[The Lady's Home Companion]]. Both produced by the Times? <br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback p280)''''' "Klatchian Practices" - -not so long ago, the printworkers' unions were the strongest in Britain, and if any unions justified what was otherwise a myth, and deserved to be called greedy gits who were holding the country to ransom, it was the ones who printed the papers in Fleet Street. They knew exactly how strong they were and their employers were resigned to handing out all sorts of sweeteners to ensure they just did their job and got a paper out for the next day. The consequences and lost revenue were unthinkable otherwise. Once, there was even a strike after management discovered an employee dead for three years was still on the payroll and still drawing a salary. The not unreasonable suggestion that his pay stopped now - let alone any reasonable suggestion of repaying the overpayment - was met with a wildcat strike, on the grounds that his family depended on the money, and would suffer if the pay of the deceased were to be stopped. Fleet Street and provincial printworkers also enjoyed the best sick pay in Britain - Goodmountain alludes to this when he says any man on the Inquirer's presses who goes home early with a headache gets a hundred dollars. They were finally brought to heel by stateless media mogul Rupert Murdoch (think Reacher Gilt with an Australian accent) during a protracted strike in the 1980's, aided by Thatcher's anti-union legislation and the reluctance of any other right-thinking trade unionist to go out and support a union made up, basically, of greedy selfish gits who were giving trade unionism a largely undeserved bad name. (The one set of circumstances where the printworkers' union never went on strike was if a newspaper such as the Sun or the Daily Mail was printing front-page lies about a fellow union on strike: they were implored to come out in support of the Miners' Strike but refused, and carried on print-setting anti-miner lies. So when they were in trouble, the prevalent mood of the rest of the union movement was that the printworkers could go to Hell in a handcart.) Nobody would disagree the newspapers needed reform: but today printworkers are un-unionised and powerless to resist the worst excesses of wage-cutting, arguably the state Thatcher intended for all British workers. <br />
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The old excesses of Fleet Street days were known as "Spanish Practices"...<br />
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'''''(Doubleday hardback p285)''''' "Privilege" just means "private law". That's ''exactly'' what it means. He just doesn't believe the ordinary laws apply to him..."<br />
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Compare this to a similar dialogue on the origins and nature of privilege in Book Two of Shea and Wilson's '''''Illuminatus!''''' (see [[Reading suggestions]]).<br />
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At this stage in the book, the Times' offices on Gleam Street have been effectively bombed and burned out, meaning that while the paper can still report and investigate, it has nowhere to print its findings. Compare this to one of the myriad sub-plots of Shea and Wilson's '''''Illuminatus!''''', where the radical magazine and thorn in the flesh of the Establishment, "Confrontation", is suddenly bombed, apparently to prevent it publishing further inconvenient truths. In fact, this bombing draws in the hard-bitten cynical street coppers Goodman and Muldoon as investigators, just as in Discworld Vimes and Carrot are among the first to the wreckage of the Times printworks. Another link: ''Confrontation'''s Arab-American editor Joseph Malik kept rare Egyptian tropical fish in the office to remind him of home. These died in the bombing. The Times' Überwaldean photographer Otto Chriek kept Überwaldean land-eels, another rare fish species from Home, which were lost in the bombing... <br />
And earlier on the book, Saharissa is asked, on a scale of one to ten, exactly how much trouble she estimates they're in. William thinks eight. Sacharissa reflects and says ''two thousand, three hundred and seventeen out of ten''. 23 and 17 are the all-important continually repeating arc numbers of the '''''Illuminatus!''''' trilogy, and have a mystic significance. <br />
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Also, the star of Evelyn Waugh's novel "Scoop" is a young journalist called William Boot, with strong similarities to William de Worde.<br />
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"''Kings and Lords come and go and leave nothing but statues in a desert''" (HarperCollins 30).<br />
This is a reference to [[wikipedia:Percy_Bysshe_Shelley|Percy Bysshe Shelley's]] poem ''[[Wikipedia:Ozymandias|Ozymandias]]'' which tells of a statue built by 'the king of kings' yet no one remembers who this king is. It is not the kings' legacy that survive but the art they create.<br />
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[[Category:Annotations|Truth,The]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:The_Truth/Annotations&diff=29796Book:The Truth/Annotations2018-09-23T22:24:34Z<p>AgProv: A historical footnote Terry must have been aware of...</p>
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<div>The title of the book might be a nod towards the official Communist party news-paper named "Pravda" (In Russian -"The Truth"). There is an old Soviet-era joke about Russia's two state newspapers: ''There's never any truth in Izveztiya (The News) and you'll never find any news in Pravda (The Truth)''. This may echo the later rivalry between the staid and slightly pompous [[Ankh-Morpork Times]], and its downmarket rival the [[Ankh-Morpork Inquirer]], which emphasises rumours and trivial non-stories at the expense of strict accuracy. <br />
<br />
Miss Cripslock in The Truth: Just going through the APF shows that her father was mentioned in as an engraver in ''Maskerade'' (see annotation for p.11 there), although this may be her grandfather, on whose behalf she gives William a ringing slap, whilst her well-crafted bosom heaves at him. Which was he concentrating on, we wonder...<br />
<br />
William de Worde's career path appears to mirror that of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Carolus Johann Carolus], who made a living handwriting newsletters for his clients before purchasing a printing press and starting what is recognised ([http://archive.is/8zV3 ref]) as the world's first newspaper.<br />
<br />
Thre incident where William first encounters the Dwarfs and their printing press and gets the letter "R" branded in the middle of his forehead, albeit temporarily. in 17th - 18th century England and possibly elsewhere, a common punishment was to brand an offender with a letter denoting what their crime was. One who disseminated slander (verbally) or libel (in print), one deemed to be a habitual liar and ''rumour-monger'', could have the letter "R" burnt into their face - a humiliting punishment they would carry for life. Apparently this happened to publishers of broadsheets who printed things that annoyed influential people who could command such a sanction...<br />
<br />
Doubleday hardback p39)<br />
:''"Why's there a bigger box for the 'e''s?''<br />
:''"'cos that's the letter we use most of."''<br />
<br />
This figures: the "mnemonic" in English usage, for letter frequency, is apparently ETAOINSHRDLU, where "e" is by far and away the most commonly occurring letter, with the rest ranked afterwards in order of frequency. Apparently the remaining 14 letters are all of such low relative frequency that it isn't worthwhile committing their order to memory: if you can crack these first 12, they occur often and frequently enough in any English discourse for the cryptographer to be able to make an intelligent stab at the structure of the rest. <br />
<br />
--AgProv 16:48, 3 April 2008 (CEST) <br />
<br />
-Etaoin Shrdlu was the name of a bookworm (larger than .303 cal.) in Walt Kelly's ''Pogo'' (the greatest comic strip in history). Wikipedia agrees with Mr. Kelly on the relative frequency of t and a. --Old Dickens 19:15, 3 April 2008 (CEST) <br />
<br />
(Doubleday hardback p43)<br />
<br />
''"...I wish to avoid any low-level difficulties at this time..." '' In the middle of a discourse about Dwarfs being a very hard-working and valuable ethnic grouping in the city, is it possible that Vetinari has just slipped in a sizeist joke, possibly to see how well Goodmountain and Bodony, faced with a business opportunity, can hold their tempers? <br />
<br />
"wishing to avoid low-level difficulties" could well mean "at a time of great potential difficulty with the Dwarfs, it will do no harm to be seen actively sponsoring a Dwarf-owned business, and giving my personal blessing to their prospering in this city." <br />
<br />
* Or possibly he was being culture-savvy, as dwarfs consider "low level" to be ''superior'' to high. This aspect of dwarf thinking is examined more deeply in ''Unseen Academicals'', and might explain why the Campaign for Equal Heights is mostly made up of humans: dwarfs who haven't absorbed human concepts of high-equals-good wouldn't realize that many sizeist jokes are intended to be insulting.<br />
<br />
at this point there was speculation that this book might be placed differently in the chronology because of Vetinari's reference to "troubles in Uberwald". (which hinted that this was prior to the resolution of said troubles in {{TFE}}. However, there are ''always'' going to be troubles of one sort or another in Uberwald, as {{T!}} and {{RS}} demonstrated. so speculation concerning chronology removed as having been proven irrelevant. <br />
<br />
If nothing else, it supports the contention that in the latter Discworld novels, events are happening faster and faster and frequently overlap between books - look at the fit of {{TOT}} and {{NW}}, for instance. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback p46)''''' Even in newsletter days, William could rely on Watchmen providing inside information in return for favours. Fred Colon's stated perk is "a drink". By comparision, when members of the Metropolitan police furnish Britain's national press with inside information or services over and beyond the call of duty, the small financial incentive that went the other way was referred to as a "drinkie". <br />
<br />
''The Truth Shall Make You Free'' (or fret)... a quote from Abraham Lincoln, which was taken up as a line in the ''Battle Hymn of the Republic''--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:54, 12 July 2007 (CEST) - although Abe was himself quoting - John 8:31-2: "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "<br />
<br />
<br />
''William de Worde'' Wynkyn de Worde (originally Jan van Wynkyn) was pivotal, along with the more-widely-known Caxton, in introducing printing to Britain. All the national newspaper were (until very recently) printed at Fleet Street in London. Mr. Tuttle Scrope, put up as the replacement Patrician for Vetinari, runs a shop that sells Leatherwork, "... and rubber work... and feathers... and whips... and... little jiggly things" and was, presumably, the supplier for Sir Joshua Lavish in Making Money, who had a cabinet full of such supplies.<br />
<br />
"But news is mainly what someone somewhere doesn't want you to put in the paper--" A saying by Lord Northcliffe, a late 19th-early 20th century news magnate in the UK (who, at one point, owned the London newspaper ''The Times''): "News is what someone wants to suppress. Everything else is advertising."<br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback pp 203-205)''''':- There is a possible contradiction and continuity error across books. In {{CJ}}, Vlad de Magpyr asserts:- ''"Everyone knows that cutting off a vampire's head is internationally acceptable"''. In argument with Agnes Nitt, he states that decapitating a vampire is, on its own, a surefire way of slaying a vampire regardless of its georgraphical or ethnic origin. This certainly suffices for the Count de Magpyr at the end of the book. Yet, here we have the contradiction that Otto Chriek is decapitated by Mr Pin. Otto's head and body remain separately alive and sentient, and Otto is able to calmly issue directions to place his head where his body can reach it so that he can re-attach it. This he does, by an effort of will and his own vampiric physiognomy. He then remarks, after saying it "stings a bit*", that decapitation alone is not sufficient - it requires a stake through the heart, as well. The Count de Magpyr does not seem to know this trick. Perhaps for the de Magpyrs, decapitation alone is sufficient, and Vlad is erroneously arguing from his family back to all vampires? Otherwise, a small error in continuity arises.<br />
<br />
( * - a reference to a Monty Python sketch? Where Eric Idle plays a stiff-upper-lip British officer whose leg has just been bitten off and eaten by a tiger, asserting cheerfully that "it stings a bit, sir, but nothing to get bothered about!")<br />
<br />
** Possibly the Count was unable to heal his neck injury because of having "been Weatherwaxed". Certainly the vampires who succumbed to that effect in {{CJ}} found their ability to fly was impaired, so it may have hindered some of their other powers as well. - Sharlee<br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback p254)''''' Another of those obscure song references. Sacharissa and Rocky realise they aren't alone in the deWorde mansion. They can hear raucous singing and glass clattering. It is coming from behind a ''Green Door''. What's behind the Green Door? - a question asked, in song, by Jime lowe, Frankie Vaughan, Bill Haley and the Comets, the Goons (or at least Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan) and Shakin' Stevens. The "Green Door" is also used in slang to denote levels of access to information - if you are on the wrong side of a green door, there is a higher level to which you have not been given security clearance. <br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback p258)''''' "Spit or swallow, thought William, the eternal conundrum." Terry Pratchett has a habit of throwing in random punchlines from silly or sometimes eyebrow-raising jokes, perhaps just to see who notices. "Spit or swallow" refers to... ermmm... an ''intimate practice'' and the social etiquette that goes along with it, at least for the active partner. Those who know what it means will grin quietly to themselves and read on; for those who don't, it will go right over their heads and remain un-noticed. Therefore Terry wins whichever way. Although how a well-brought up young lad like William knows this... Sacharissa might perhaps require some explanation of the phrase, ideally with diagrams and/or an understanding member of the Seamstresses' Guild to assist. (Ah. Even as these words are written I begin to see how William, a journalist interested in words whose profession involves talking to everybody, knows the phrase. As no doubt Sacharissa will if she remains a journalist). <br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback p269)''''' Interestingly enough, in the mood of hysteria following the fire that destroyed the press , William and Sacharissa are discussing ideas to maximise revenue from the printing presses during down-time, and come up with ideas for glossy magazines. Sacharissa muses...<br />
:"Ring, yes. Now that's another thing. There are all the dwarfs in the city. We could produce a magazine for them. I mean... what's the modern dwarf wearing this season?" ({{TT}}, page 269)<br />
<br />
Is this foreshadowing either [[Bu-Bubble]] or Shatta in{{UA}}? And in {{MM}}, Gladys the feminised golem is also a devoted reader of a new ladies' magazine... here, Sacharissa also proposes a magazine tentatively called [[The Lady's Home Companion]]. Both produced by the Times? <br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback p280)''''' "Klatchian Practices" - -not so long ago, the printworkers' unions were the strongest in Britain, and if any unions justified what was otherwise a myth, and deserved to be called greedy gits who were holding the country to ransom, it was the ones who printed the papers in Fleet Street. They knew exactly how strong they were and their employers were resigned to handing out all sorts of sweeteners to ensure they just did their job and got a paper out for the next day. The consequences and lost revenue were unthinkable otherwise. Once, there was even a strike after management discovered an employee dead for three years was still on the payroll and still drawing a salary. The not unreasonable suggestion that his pay stopped now - let alone any reasonable suggestion of repaying the overpayment - was met with a wildcat strike, on the grounds that his family depended on the money, and would suffer if the pay of the deceased were to be stopped. Fleet Street and provincial printworkers also enjoyed the best sick pay in Britain - Goodmountain alludes to this when he says any man on the Inquirer's presses who goes home early with a headache gets a hundred dollars. They were finally brought to heel by stateless media mogul Rupert Murdoch (think Reacher Gilt with an Australian accent) during a protracted strike in the 1980's, aided by Thatcher's anti-union legislation and the reluctance of any other right-thinking trade unionist to go out and support a union made up, basically, of greedy selfish gits who were giving trade unionism a largely undeserved bad name. (The one set of circumstances where the printworkers' union never went on strike was if a newspaper such as the Sun or the Daily Mail was printing front-page lies about a fellow union on strike: they were implored to come out in support of the Miners' Strike but refused, and carried on print-setting anti-miner lies. So when they were in trouble, the prevalent mood of the rest of the union movement was that the printworkers could go to Hell in a handcart.) Nobody would disagree the newspapers needed reform: but today printworkers are un-unionised and powerless to resist the worst excesses of wage-cutting, arguably the state Thatcher intended for all British workers. <br />
<br />
The old excesses of Fleet Street days were known as "Spanish Practices"...<br />
<br />
'''''(Doubleday hardback p285)''''' "Privilege" just means "private law". That's ''exactly'' what it means. He just doesn't believe the ordinary laws apply to him..."<br />
<br />
Compare this to a similar dialogue on the origins and nature of privilege in Book Two of Shea and Wilson's '''''Illuminatus!''''' (see [[Reading suggestions]]).<br />
<br />
At this stage in the book, the Times' offices on Gleam Street have been effectively bombed and burned out, meaning that while the paper can still report and investigate, it has nowhere to print its findings. Compare this to one of the myriad sub-plots of Shea and Wilson's '''''Illuminatus!''''', where the radical magazine and thorn in the flesh of the Establishment, "Confrontation", is suddenly bombed, apparently to prevent it publishing further inconvenient truths. In fact, this bombing draws in the hard-bitten cynical street coppers Goodman and Muldoon as investigators, just as in Discworld Vimes and Carrot are among the first to the wreckage of the Times printworks. Another link: ''Confrontation'''s Arab-American editor Joseph Malik kept rare Egyptian tropical fish in the office to remind him of home. These died in the bombing. The Times' Überwaldean photographer Otto Chriek kept Überwaldean land-eels, another rare fish species from Home, which were lost in the bombing...<br />
<br />
<br />
Also, the star of Evelyn Waugh's novel "Scoop" is a young journalist called William Boot, with strong similarities to William de Worde.<br />
<br />
<br />
"''Kings and Lords come and go and leave nothing but statues in a desert''" (HarperCollins 30).<br />
This is a reference to [[wikipedia:Percy_Bysshe_Shelley|Percy Bysshe Shelley's]] poem ''[[Wikipedia:Ozymandias|Ozymandias]]'' which tells of a statue built by 'the king of kings' yet no one remembers who this king is. It is not the kings' legacy that survive but the art they create.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Annotations|Truth,The]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Matty_Weaver&diff=29687Matty Weaver2018-08-09T20:44:01Z<p>AgProv: new entry</p>
<hr />
<div>It has been noted that when at work, [[Petulia Gristle]] becomes self-confident and secure. In {{ISWM}}, this latter tendency appears to have found her a husband, the sort of stolid [[Lancre]] pig-farmer who values a woman's ability to tuck a pig under each arm, treat their ailments, and finally convert them to all the things pork is prone to becoming. While there is no record of the marriage, or at least not one available to us, ''Wintersmith'' names the young man who has indeed noted her ability to carry a pig under each arm, and who is therefore keen on finding out more about her, as [[Matty Weaver]]. It is entirely possible this is the man who later became Mr Gristle. It is stated that his father owns one of the largest piggeries in Lancre and Matty is in line ti inherit, so a woman who is good with pigs would be an asset. <br />
<br />
[[Category:Human characters|Weaver, Matty]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Petulia_Gristle&diff=29686Petulia Gristle2018-08-09T20:39:48Z<p>AgProv: Petulia's possible husband,</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Character Data<br />
|title= Petulia Gristle<br />
|photo= <br />
|name= <br />
|age= 14 when introduced<br />
|race= [[:Category:Human characters|Human]]<br />
|occupation= Witch<br />
|appearance= Young girl, rather round; tends to wear too much occult jewelery.<br />
|residence= [[Ramtops]]<br />
|death= <br />
|parents= <br />
|relatives= <br />
|children= <br />
|marital status= currently at least engaged.<br />
|books= {{HFOS}}, {{W}} <br />
|cameos= <br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''Petulia''' is a friend of [[Tiffany Aching]] and is being tutored by [[Gwinifer Blackcap|"Old Mother" Blackcap]]. She is particularly talented with pigs and, as a result, gains the nick-name "the pig witch". Her talent also wins her the [[Witch Trials]] in {{HFOS}}, when she performs [[the pig trick]]. What this trick actually is is not revealed. She first appears in ''A Hat Full of Sky'' and also appears in {{W}}. She is a member of the coven set up by [[Annagramma Hawkin]]. When with the coven, she has a tendency to mumble, stutter, and be extremely agreeable, but when at work, she becomes self-confident and secure. In {{ISWM}}, this latter tendency appears to have found her a husband, the sort of stolid [[Lancre]] pig-farmer who values a woman's ability to tuck a pig under each arm, treat their ailments, and finally convert them to all the things pork is prone to becoming. While there is no record of the marriage, or at least not one available to us, {{W}} names the young man who has indeed noted her ability to carry a pig under each arm, and who is therefore keen on finding out more about her, as [[Matty Weaver]]. It is entirely possible this is the man who later became Mr Gristle. <br />
<br />
Petulia is an expert at [[Pig-Boring]], which is the most humane way of slaughtering an animal prior to sausage and bacon-hood. She simply chooses her animal, and then talks to it in a most earnest monotone voice about trivial things of parochial importance until its eyes close and it slumps to one side, having by then given up the will to live. <br />
<br />
Petulia is also, apparently, acuphobic. Being frightened of pins seems a drawback for one of veterinarian disposition, who would presumably be expected to inject her patients now and again. And a witch who has a phobia about pins might find the business with the wax doll rather daunting. (How does she attach those bits of the occult jewellry which are secured with pins, like brooches and some earrings?) <br />
<br />
It is her misfortune to have been named after a ''very'' inappropriate [[Petulia|Goddess]]. This begs the question of what Mr and Mrs Gristle must have been thinking of... or whether they were aware of it. The far-off land (well, far away from [[Ankh-Morpork]]) they inhabit has only the occasional wandering preacher, mainly [[Omnia|Omnian]], to bring religious succour. For them to have an intimate knowledge of all of the 3000 gods and counting discovered by research theologians would be impossible.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Discworld characters|Gristle,Petulia]]<br />
[[Category:Witches|Gristle,Petulia]]<br />
[[Category:Tiffany Series characters|Gristle,Petulia]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:Dodger&diff=29550Book:Dodger2018-07-16T08:05:41Z<p>AgProv: /* Annotations */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Book Data<br />
|title=Dodger<br />
|cover=[[File:Dodger Cover.jpg|thumb|240px|Cover by [[Paul Kidby]]]]<br />
|date=13 September 2012<br />
|publisher=Doubleday<br />
|isbn=0385619278<br />
|pages=356<br />
|rrp=£18.99<br />
|characters=[[Dodger]], [[Solomon Cohen]], [[Simplicity]]<br />
|series=Dodger<br />
}}<br />
A storm. Rain-lashed city streets. A flash of lightning. A scruffy lad sees a girl leap desperately from a horse-drawn carriage, in a vain attempt to escape her captors. Can the lad stand by and let her be caught again? Of course not, because he's . . . Dodger!<br />
<br />
In an alternative London, ruled by the young Queen Victoria, an enterprising lad can find adventure and opportunity - if he is very smart, and very, very lucky. Dodger has the brains, the luck - and the cheek - to scrape by on his own.<br />
<br />
Everyone knows Dodger, and everyone likes Dodger. Which is a good thing, because life for a boy on the streets is anything but easy. And it's about to get seriously complicated as a simple haircut turns momentous when Dodger unknowingly puts a stop to the murderous barber Sweeney Todd.<br />
<br />
From Dodger's encounters with fictional villains to his meetings with Darwin, Disraeli, and Dickens, history and fantasy intertwine in a breathtaking tale of adventure and mystery, unexpected coming-of-age, and one remarkable boy's rise in a complex and fascinating world.<br />
<br />
==Characters==<br />
*[[Dodger]], a tosher (someone who searches in sewers for valuable items).<br />
*[[Solomon Cohen]]<br />
*[[Simplicity]]<br />
*[[Grandad (Dodger)|Grandad]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Joseph Bazalgette|Joseph Bazalgette]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Angela Burdett-Coutts|Angela Burdett-Coutts]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Charles Dickens|Charles Dickens]]<br />
*{{wp|Henry Mayhew|Henry Mayhew}}<br />
*[[Outlander|The Outlander]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Robert Peel|Robert Peel]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Disraeli|Benjamin Disraeli]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Queen Victoria|Queen Victoria]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Sweeney Todd|Sweeney Todd]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Karl Marx|Karl Marx]] (referenced)<br />
*Mister Hunter and [[Anathema Device|Mister Device]], warders at Bedlam.<br />
<br />
==Extras==<br />
The first edition from the retailer Waterstones included the additional material: 'The Wise Words of Solomon Cohen,' a collection of some of Solomon Cohen's sayings in the book along with some new ones.<br />
<br />
The first edition from the retailer WHSmith and the ebook edition of Dodger included the additional material: 'Old Comrades,' an small additional chapter where Dodger visits Sweeney Todd in prison.<br />
<br />
The first edition from the retailer Tesco included four postcards illustrated by [[Paul Kidby]].<br />
<br />
The first edition from the retailer ASDA included the additional material: 'Map of Dodger's London,' two pages that feature an illustration of a map of Victorian London.<br />
<br />
==Annotations==<br />
<br />
It's worth remarking that the biggest cliché in novel writing - Bulwer-Lytton's opening line "It was a dark and stormy night..." has been spoofed, parodied and sent up so often that no author would dare to use it or anything like it to kick off a novel. Except, perhaps, Terry - who seems to have picked it up here and is gleefully putting a slant on the idea.... <br />
<br />
''It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents — except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness.'' (Edward Bulwer-Lytton, ''Paul Clifford'', opening line.) <br />
<br />
Now look at the way Terry opens ''Dodger''.<br />
<br />
==Adaptations==<br />
===[[Book:The Dodger's Guide to London|Spin-Off]]===<br />
[[Book:The Dodger's Guide to London|''The Dodger's Guide to London'']], 2013. A book further exploring the world and time period of {{DO}}.<br />
<br />
===[[Theatre Adaptations|Theatre]]===<br />
Adapted into a play-script by [[Stephen Briggs]] and published by Oxford Playscripts, 2014.<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
{|<br />
|-<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:Dodger Cover.jpg|thumb|120px|First Edition Cover by [[Paul Kidby]]]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Proof.jpg|thumb|120px|Book Proof]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Slip.jpg|thumb|120px|Slipcase Collectors Edition]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Cards.jpg|thumb|130px|Promotional postcards by Paul Kidby]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Zoom.jpg|thumb|120px|Paperback]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO CD.jpg|thumb|140px|Audio CD]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO US.jpg|thumb|120px|US Cover]]<br />
|}<br />
{|<br />
|-<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Waterstones.jpg|thumb|130px|Waterstones Edition]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Sampler.jpg|thumb|130px|Sampler Extract]]<br />
|}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Dodger|Dodger]]<br />
[[Category:Children's books|Dodger]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:Dodger&diff=29549Book:Dodger2018-07-16T08:05:09Z<p>AgProv: Literary homage in the opening lines of "Dodger"</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Book Data<br />
|title=Dodger<br />
|cover=[[File:Dodger Cover.jpg|thumb|240px|Cover by [[Paul Kidby]]]]<br />
|date=13 September 2012<br />
|publisher=Doubleday<br />
|isbn=0385619278<br />
|pages=356<br />
|rrp=£18.99<br />
|characters=[[Dodger]], [[Solomon Cohen]], [[Simplicity]]<br />
|series=Dodger<br />
}}<br />
A storm. Rain-lashed city streets. A flash of lightning. A scruffy lad sees a girl leap desperately from a horse-drawn carriage, in a vain attempt to escape her captors. Can the lad stand by and let her be caught again? Of course not, because he's . . . Dodger!<br />
<br />
In an alternative London, ruled by the young Queen Victoria, an enterprising lad can find adventure and opportunity - if he is very smart, and very, very lucky. Dodger has the brains, the luck - and the cheek - to scrape by on his own.<br />
<br />
Everyone knows Dodger, and everyone likes Dodger. Which is a good thing, because life for a boy on the streets is anything but easy. And it's about to get seriously complicated as a simple haircut turns momentous when Dodger unknowingly puts a stop to the murderous barber Sweeney Todd.<br />
<br />
From Dodger's encounters with fictional villains to his meetings with Darwin, Disraeli, and Dickens, history and fantasy intertwine in a breathtaking tale of adventure and mystery, unexpected coming-of-age, and one remarkable boy's rise in a complex and fascinating world.<br />
<br />
==Characters==<br />
*[[Dodger]], a tosher (someone who searches in sewers for valuable items).<br />
*[[Solomon Cohen]]<br />
*[[Simplicity]]<br />
*[[Grandad (Dodger)|Grandad]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Joseph Bazalgette|Joseph Bazalgette]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Angela Burdett-Coutts|Angela Burdett-Coutts]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Charles Dickens|Charles Dickens]]<br />
*{{wp|Henry Mayhew|Henry Mayhew}}<br />
*[[Outlander|The Outlander]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Robert Peel|Robert Peel]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Disraeli|Benjamin Disraeli]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Queen Victoria|Queen Victoria]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Sweeney Todd|Sweeney Todd]]<br />
*[[Wikipedia:Karl Marx|Karl Marx]] (referenced)<br />
*Mister Hunter and [[Anathema Device|Mister Device]], warders at Bedlam.<br />
<br />
==Extras==<br />
The first edition from the retailer Waterstones included the additional material: 'The Wise Words of Solomon Cohen,' a collection of some of Solomon Cohen's sayings in the book along with some new ones.<br />
<br />
The first edition from the retailer WHSmith and the ebook edition of Dodger included the additional material: 'Old Comrades,' an small additional chapter where Dodger visits Sweeney Todd in prison.<br />
<br />
The first edition from the retailer Tesco included four postcards illustrated by [[Paul Kidby]].<br />
<br />
The first edition from the retailer ASDA included the additional material: 'Map of Dodger's London,' two pages that feature an illustration of a map of Victorian London.<br />
<br />
==Annotations==<br />
<br />
it's worth remarking that the biggest cliché in novel writing - Bulwer-Lytton's opening line "It was a dark and stormy night..." has been spoofed, parodied and sent up so often that no author would dare to use it or anything like it to kick off a novel. Except, perhaps, Terry - who seems to have picked it up here and is gleefully putting a slant on the idea.... <br />
<br />
''It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents — except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness.'' (Edward Bulwer-Lytton, ''Paul Clifford'', opening line.) <br />
<br />
Now look at the way Terry opens ''Dodger''. <br />
<br />
==Adaptations==<br />
===[[Book:The Dodger's Guide to London|Spin-Off]]===<br />
[[Book:The Dodger's Guide to London|''The Dodger's Guide to London'']], 2013. A book further exploring the world and time period of {{DO}}.<br />
<br />
===[[Theatre Adaptations|Theatre]]===<br />
Adapted into a play-script by [[Stephen Briggs]] and published by Oxford Playscripts, 2014.<br />
<br />
==Gallery==<br />
{|<br />
|-<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:Dodger Cover.jpg|thumb|120px|First Edition Cover by [[Paul Kidby]]]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Proof.jpg|thumb|120px|Book Proof]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Slip.jpg|thumb|120px|Slipcase Collectors Edition]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Cards.jpg|thumb|130px|Promotional postcards by Paul Kidby]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Zoom.jpg|thumb|120px|Paperback]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO CD.jpg|thumb|140px|Audio CD]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO US.jpg|thumb|120px|US Cover]]<br />
|}<br />
{|<br />
|-<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Waterstones.jpg|thumb|130px|Waterstones Edition]]<br />
| valign="top" | [[File:DO Sampler.jpg|thumb|130px|Sampler Extract]]<br />
|}<br />
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[[Category:Dodger|Dodger]]<br />
[[Category:Children's books|Dodger]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Ankh-Morpork&diff=29101Talk:Ankh-Morpork2018-02-15T17:42:24Z<p>AgProv: /* Odd historical sidebar */ new section</p>
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<div>==Where is Downtown?==<br />
In Night Watch, when talking about the Watch Houses, Knock says ''...I hate to think what's happening downtown.'' I was wondering what is considered 'downtown'.<br />
<br />
It is cetainly not the Dimwell Street (that is mentioned in the same conversation) or Treacle Mine Road and I would guess that it isn't Long Wall, Leastgate or Nap Hill either. So this leaves, the HQ ([[Isle of Gods]]), Chittling Street ([[The Shades]]) or Dolly Sisters areas.<br />
<br />
The [[UU]] area, Esoteric Street down to the river (Street of Alchemist) would be my choice, though I haven't seen any mention of a Watch House in this area. Maybe it would be the whole of the Dolly Sisters and UU area.<br />
<br />
Any ideas as to which area of Ankh-Morpork is considered 'Downtown'? --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 20:00, 27 July 2006 (CEST) <br />
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"Downtown" usually means "down to the water", sometimes just the old, built-up area. In either case, this would likely be the Shades, which is also where Knock could expect the most trouble.<br />
..[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 13:25 EST 5 Sep 2006<br />
<br />
:My initial thoughts were also that it meant the Shades. The problem seems that Knock would then be talking about something that is happening only a couple of streets away. In the conversation of Knock he was talking about people throwing stones at the Dimwell Street House when he mentions downtown. This would mean there should be a Watch House there. As they themselves are in the only watch house I know of in the area (Treacle Mine), why would he talk in that way about the Shades? This is why I think it is another part of the city.<br />
:Possibly it could be the located around The Drum, Short Street, Cheapside, Baker Street, etc. There seems to be a lot of commercial activity in this area. --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 00:45, 6 September 2006 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Dimwell seems to be across the river, so also "downtown" toward the sea. However, he doesn't<br />
have to be restricted to Watch houses. Treacle Mine Road is "uptown" (just) from the whole Shades. ..[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 20:20 EST 6 Sep 2006<br />
<br />
...More haggling over the Shades, etc.<br />
- A quote from ''Men At Arms'': "(Gaspode) was somewhere '''beyond''' the Shades, in the network of dock basins and cattle yards..." This sounds sensible; how could commerce go on if the Shades cut off all that dockland? Even the crazier Patricians wouldn't allow it. Does the ''Streets of A-M'' show the borders you give?<br />
<br />
Haggle away my good man ;-)<br />
It is difficult to decide on what is and what isn't, possibly The Shades and the adjoining areas, all the way up to Short Street, would count as downtown.<br />
<br />
:The layout on the neighbourhoods image is exactly as shown on the Streets of A-M mapp. The Shades area is also labelled very similar but NO, it does not show the boundaries I give. Going off where the text is, the shape of the streets and the shape of the buildings (especially for the Shades) this is how I've created those boundaries.<br />
<br />
:I agree on the elevations - I have considered this as well as with working out the ''real'' size of the city. A few months back I spent a lot of time working out various possible sizes. I tried overlaying real world maps, satellite images and the such onto the A-M mapp. Once of my first attempts produced a diameter of around 5km. I can't now remember where but I'd heard the given size was 1.6km. To the bottom of it I created a 3D version of the mapp [http://www.mikecook.net/3d_am.jpg 3d-am.jpg] :o) I also have scale models of some late medieval buildings and also one of Shakespeare's Globe Theatre. All these fitted on the map very nicely, the Globe theatre and Dysk fit together almost exact! This all worked to give a diameter of (approx) 1mile (1.6km).<br />
:Isn't the 1 million population for the ''whole of the city'', which includes the areas ''outside'' of the city walls? <br />
<br />
:Alas, all this experimentation and research takes time. Once I've finished reading the last two DW books I will go on a ''research gathering'' re-read of all the Ankh-Morpork books. Some of which I haven't read since they were originally released! --[[User:Mikecook|mikecook]] 19:37, 19 September 2006 (CEST)<br />
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I've studied ''The Streets'' for a while now, and I see the borders you show are much the same, Therefore, I'm more convinced that '''The Shades''', where even the Watch dare not go, is only a ghetto within the greater left-bank dock area named after it. Within the area of the map shaded dull pink, marked "The Shades" are :<br />
<br />
Hubward Central area : ''Mrs Palm's'', a major tourist attraction, and ''The Whore Pits'';<br />
''The Troll's Head'', an unsavory pub, probably on the edge of no-man's land.<br />
<br />
Widdershins side : Industrial; ''Chalky'' and ''Igneous'' The Trolls.<br />
<br />
Central River : ''Harga's House of Ribs''<br />
<br />
Rimward : Cattle Market, ''Pork Futures Warehouse'', ''Grabpot Thundergust''<br />
<br />
Most of the perimeter of the ward is occupied by various commercial activities, which must attract business from the rest of the city, leaving the probability that the no - go area '''The Shades''' is perhaps Rimward from ''The Troll's Head'' almost centered in the pink area around ''Shamlegger Street''? ..[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:40 7 Oct 2006<br />
<br />
== Coat of arms ==<br />
I added the coat of arm but how do I get rid of that code that's popped up?--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 16:59, 20 February 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
Ok fixed that now there's a box. D'oh!--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 17:29, 20 February 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
==The rehabilitation of Cecil Nobbs==<br />
(Re: edit of 26 Feb.2009.) Since we first encountered him at the age of ten, trying to pick Lady Roberta's pocket, Nobby has a long and well documented history of stealing anything not closely guarded, from the quartermaster's stores of Pseudopolis to his co-workers' tea money. Well-known fact, that is. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 18:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
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==Taxation==<br />
<br />
More quibbles: Topsy Lavish considered $150/yr as too poor to use the bank. That's 37.5 decimal pence per day; these people are too poor to breathe. These might be domestic servants getting room and board as well. Many other references suggest a typical working-class wage around $1/day or $350/yr.<br><br />
`Where is Vetinari's "extremely wealthy and powerful" family? We've only ever heard of one aunt, no land, no money, no power. Presumably they had some money once, and Havelock ''may'' be wealthy, but he would consider supporting the city with his own money an admission of failure: he's a ''politician'' and SimCity Ankh-Morpork is all he does. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 19:08, 1 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
:Another nitpick on the taxation issue: as I recall, the passage in Reaper Man was describing what the arrangement was with the Unseen University. Other citizens may have different taxation arrangements. [[User:Draxynnic|Draxynnic]] 14:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Size ==<br />
<br />
Where is the size given in the stats mentioned? 1,6km seems a bit small for a city...especially a major city. (To compare, that's about the size of Londinium)--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 20:12, 1 October 2011 (CEST)<br />
:The nearly circular walled city shown in {{SAM}} is one mile across. It's been assumed that there's a considerable suburban area outside the walls because a one-mile circle provides twenty-eight square feet (2.6 m<sup>2</sup>) per person including all commercial and industrial space, Hide Park, The Tump and all. We know it's crowded, but that's silly. The most densely populated cities on Earth barely exceed 100,000 per square mile. I think Fred Colon once referred to the city as eight miles wide, which seems more likely. On the other hand, [[new Ankh|locations outside the wall]] are almost never mentioned. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:26, 1 October 2011 (CEST)<br />
:Also remember that Ankh-Morpork is the largest dwarf city on the disc and some dwarves prefer to live underground which means that the city also has a lot of residential space below it as well as on the surface. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] 22:20, 1 October 2011 (CEST)<br />
<br />
::Well, if it is from the map I think we can easily ignore that bit of info, as even though the map WAS used to write NW (afetr the map had been created) the scale might be utterly flawed.--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 23:06, 1 October 2011 (CEST)<br />
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== Odd historical sidebar ==<br />
<br />
A visitor to Prague in the early 1600s, a city then on the edges of Europe looking out into a debateable area with rampant Ottomans out there looking to expand their Empire, commented that the smell of the streets was strong enough to stop the Turkish invasion by itself. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 17:42, 15 February 2018 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Monarchy&diff=29099Talk:Monarchy2018-02-15T17:17:17Z<p>AgProv: </p>
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<div>There seems to be a problem in the history of the A-M monarchy. While allowing that the Kings of Ankh disappeared >2000 Years ago, it says they include the Veltricks from only 400 years ago (later than some Cirones; the Cirones themselves are confusing). The dates are credited to {{NDC}} but I don't see any there in '''Monarchy''' or '''Ankh-Morpork'''. This precedes the '''history'''; does anyone have an explanation? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:34, 13 February 2018 (UTC) <br />
<br />
If 2,000 years ago, Stoneface Vimes would have needed to be a very distant ancestor indeed. Also, would the country seat of Lorenzo the Kind with all its unique playrooms have survived so well that it's preserved as a tourist attraction on one of the Rail Way lines? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 17:17, 15 February 2018 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Great_Combovered_Eagle&diff=29098Great Combovered Eagle2018-02-15T16:38:03Z<p>AgProv: </p>
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<div>A high-flying [[Falconry|bird]] which, according to [[Fletcher's Avian Nausea Index]], is potentially capable of annoying a lot of people all at once.<br />
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==Annotation==<br />
<br />
Presumably a reference to (and dig at?) the {{wp|Bald_Eagle|Bald Eagle}}. For those for whom English is not their first language, a {{wp|Comb_over|combover}} is an embarrassingly terrible hairstyle worn by bald or balding men in which the hair on one side of the head is grown long and then combed over the bald area to minimize the display of baldness. (This was the simple forerunner of the comboverundersidewaysdown popularised by an American real estate developer turned politician). Life does indeed take its cue from Art. <br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Discworld Flora & Fauna]].</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Arachne&diff=28996Talk:Arachne2018-02-03T21:55:17Z<p>AgProv: /* Tax */</p>
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<div>So tempting... in fanfic I've developed the idea of the Assassins' Guild school having its nature studies syllabus, with especially pleasing parts of Nature being looked after as classroom pets and so forth. But the AG school does ''not'' have a class hamster, nor does it do stick insects in a jar... its animals of interest are more substantial than that, allow for study of species whose habits the student Assassin should reflect upon and try to imitate, provide ample reason for students to remain alert and not get over-confident, and provide an ongoing revenue stream in terms of venom harvested and poisons derived therefrom.... what, from an Assassins' point of view, is there ''not'' to like? I leave all this in the capable hands of "south African" Assassin Johanna Smith-Rhodes, a zoologist of the sort who would get fan mail and offers of marriage from Steve Irwin.... maybe she taught Arachne and is looking with pride upon capable ex-pupil, as well as gratefully receiving frequent large parcels from Fourecks which are to be opened with more than usual care...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:28, 30 October 2011 (CET)<br />
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==Tax==<br />
A Guild tax of 50% sounds rather Socialist for an institution like the Guild of Assassins and it doesn't seem to be mentioned elsewhere in the wiki. If it's specified in the {{AGD}} or elsewhere it might well be added to the Assassins' Guild page. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:29, 22 January 2018 (UTC)<br />
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There is an aside in one of the Sam Vimes books, where he's dealing with a luckless Assassin, which has Vimes explaining the price payable to at least get a chance to leave Ramkin Manor in one piece. Vimes refers to "Guild takes fifty per cent, doesn't it?" to which the Assassin nods, and then of his own free will, makes a large donation to the Widows and Orphans fund.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Pictsies&diff=28886Talk:Pictsies2018-01-29T10:07:02Z<p>AgProv: /* possible connection */ horrible development of the logic</p>
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<div>Has anyone ever made a dictionary of Pictsie-speak? I would very much like to know some of the finer nuances of the meanings of their various verb-inflections. Or something, wha hae. --[[User:Kiwibird|Kiwibird]] 19:57, 12 November 2005 (CET)<br />
:A few words are explained in the first pages of [[Book:A Hat Full of Sky|A Hat Full of Sky]]. It might be interesting to list some more on the picties language. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 11:45, 13 November 2005 (CET)<br />
<br />
I now have wintersmith, and there is a much better vocab list in that one. I'll get on it asap...--[[User:CommanderJake, AMCW|CommanderJake, AMCW]] 20:06, 22 January 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
:I've done a bit of what I can remember, can't remember what else there is.--[[User:CommanderJake, AMCW|CommanderJake, AMCW]] 10:09, 15 October 2006 (CEST)<br />
<br />
One more thing, is there any reason that the article is called "pictsies", I thought the official name was "Nac Mac Feegle". Can this be changed? Or does it not matter?--[[User:CommanderJake, AMCW|CommanderJake, AMCW]] 10:09, 15 October 2006 (CEST)<br />
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Ref. "language and dialect" - "carlin" - given as "a weak person". This can also mean "unworthy person", "nasty/evil/ill-natured person", or in parts of the Borders and the North of England, "witch" in the pejorative "crone" sense.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 00:57, 27 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
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Elsewhere [[Annotations]] I've introduced the interesting similarities between Pterry's Feegle and the Gordon Highlanders, as written about by Scottish author George McDonald Fraser. He wrote three books of semi-autobiographical short stories about his time as an officer in a Scottish regiment whose soldiers have a STRONG resemblence to the Feegle. At least two of them have glossaries of Scottish and military slang - a lot of which is also used by Pterry's Feegle. Search out ''The General Danced at Dawn'', ''McAuslan in the Rough'' and ''The Sheik and the Dustbin'' (all published in paperback by Pan) for further info and an extended "Feegle" vocab! --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 00:57, 27 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Here goes...<br />
<br />
* ''banjo'' (v) - to assault, beat up. ([[Banjo Lilywhite|''more here'']])<br />
* ''bauchle'' (v) - to shamble, stagger, walk unco-ordinatedly. (n)an awkward person, ref. [[Mort]] as we first encounter him, who is made out of knees<br />
* ''baur'' (n) - a joke, an amusing story<br />
* ''brammer'' (n) - a beauty, esp. of a girl.<br />
* ''claim'' (v) - to accost for purposes of violence. ''("I'm claiming ye, ye wee scunner that ye are''!")<br />
* ''crommach'' (n) - long shepherd's crfook carried by Highland shepherds<br />
* ''glaur'' (n) - mud, filth<br />
* ''greet'' (v) - to cry, weep, do the waily-wailies<br />
* ''hoatchin' '' - infested with, crawling with, heaving with.<br />
* ''humph'' (v) - to strain under a heavy load, such as a coo-beastie <br />
* ''intellek-shul'' (n) - a clever b*******<br />
* ''manky'' (n) - dirty, soiled<br />
* ''melt'' (v) - to assault, beat up<br />
* ''nyaff'' (n) - an unworthy or untrustworthy person<br />
* ''oxter'' (n) - armpit<br />
* ''peching'' (adj) - panting, breathless<br />
* ''pit the heid on'' - to deliver a sound head-butt<br />
* ''sclim'' (v)- to climb<br />
* ''schachle'' (v/n) - see ''bauchle''<br />
* ''skelf'' (n) - fragment or splinter<br />
* ''stotter'' (n) - see ''brammer''<br />
* ''shilpit'' (adj) - undersized, weakly, stunted<br />
* ''yahoo'' (n) - a barbarian, a person too slovenly even by Feegle standards<br />
<br />
Hoping this serves as a start! I've placed this list here as this is Feegle-like language garnered from other sources: I'm sure one or two of the words in this list are "genuine", in that they can be found in the recorded speech of the Feegle in the books. I just don't want to add them "unproven" to the main list of words which the Feegle definitely use. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 19:20, 11 May 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:"Eldritch" and "Special Sheep Liniment" are included in Miss Tick's glossary, but that doesn't make them particularly Feeglish (perhaps where "eldritch" = "oblong", but that might also be called illiteracy). TP uses "eldritch" frequently through the "adult" series as well. Likewise "yahoo", above, is from Jonathan Swift and common in English. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Incidentally, on the APF, in the section about Terry Pratchett in his own words, Terry identifies one of his favourite authors (ie, one where he will go out, buy, and read everything the author has written) as being... '''''George McDonald Fraser'''''. Isn't it nice to know that what started out as a suspicion concerning an influence on Pratchett's writing is almost certainly true.... I'm quite chuffed!--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 13:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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Also regard [http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A839207] on the Scots English dialect.<br />
<br />
[[User:Daibhid Ceannaideach]] has done a complete translation of [http://www.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-scots.html ''Death and What Comes Next''] into Scots/Feeglish for L-space. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 18:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==The Feegle: the soundtrack?==<br />
<br />
I've just been re-acquainting myself with Black Sabbath's LP ''Paranoid'', and there's an interesting track called ''Fairies Wear Boots''.<br />
<br />
''Goin'home, late last night - <br />
<br />
''Suddenly I had a fright!<br />
<br />
''Looked through the window, can't believe what I saw -<br />
<br />
''Fairy boots, a dancin' without pause!''<br />
<br />
Ozzie Osborne (and his doctor) finally diagnose the complaint as being due to too much smokin' and trippin', but what if Ozzie, a man renowned for not quite living in this world, really DID see the Feegle, possibly working up to a 512-some reel...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 08:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Smurfs ==<br />
<br />
Has anyone noticed the similarily with smurfs (small, blue with only one female in a group. It's as though the pictsies are the drunken cousins. (unsigned jibe by [[User:BOZZ]] 12:58 14 Jul<br />
<br />
No, I can't say the connection ever crossed my mind. Maybe the original Belgians, but the North American television sort, no. gods, no. Executives from various manufacturers of highly sweetened breakfast cereal and their advertising agencies are looking for the numbers of those Swiss accounts.<br />
no...(shakes head vigorously, bangs ears with palms; the terrible thought clings to his brain like a Great Spell) noooo........ --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
American commentator on all things Pratchett, Lawrence Watt-Evans[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Watt-Evans#Works], says (in his overview of the Discworld books, '''''The Turtle Moves''''', Benbella Books, 2008, $14.95 US, $16.95 Canadian, £10.99 British), that<br />
<br />
''...the first impression is that they're a cross between Smurfs and soccer hooligans, but they're more than that..."'' and goes on to sum up that ''they live in matriarchal clans, serving a witch-mother called a kelda, who is abolutely nothing like Smurfette. They have a social structure that makes sense, in its own bizarre way..." (TTM, p135)<br />
<br />
Actually the mother of the Smurfs is never mentioned. We only come across Papa Smurf (a skilled wizard) so it could well be that Mama Smurf was a lot like a Kelda:)<br />
<br />
Intriguingly, mr Watt-Evans admits to having used the L-space web as a research source and deminstrates a familiarity with it, so I wonder if he's one of our band of L-space Wiki contributors? If so, hello! (Haven't seen any ideas I can definitely identify as mine coming back at me in his book, though....)<br />
<br />
--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 20:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
More thoughts on the similarity between Pictsies and Smurfs:- as TP remarked over apparent similarities between his and JK Rowling's ideas, "we're both fishing from the same stream here".<br />
<br />
In this case the stream is the historical one, which allowed ample fishing for both Pterry and Father Abraham in shaping their respective creations. The reason both Smurfs and Pictsies are apparently blue: this draws on the Celtic tradition of two thousand years ago, which dictated a well-dressed warrior should go into combat having first covered himself with blue dye derived from the woad plant. Some sources suggest the woad was used as ink for more permanent tattoos. <br />
<br />
The Pictsies are explicitly described as painted or tattooed so extensively their skins appear blue: the Smurfs just are blue. (Indeed, the Picts and the Caledonians were the northern-most Celtic tribes occupying modern-day Scotland: another tribe called the ''Belgae'' straddled both sides of the English Channel, and yes, incorporated modern-day Belgium, where some two millenia later, Father Abraham had an idea for a cartoon folk based on the Belgae of old...)<br />
<br />
The shared cap is another item originated by neither Pratchett nor Abraham. The floppy conical cap falling over at the top is at least as old as the original Celts, and variations have been found all over Europe and the middle-East. Known as the Phrygian Cap, this has been found in the sacrificial bog-graves in Denmark (Tollund Man) and England (Lindow Man). It was worn by Persian tribes fighting Romans on the eastern border of the Empire, it was requisite headgear in the French Revolution (look at pictures of revolutionaries dressed in the "Smurf-Hat"), and even Stalin's Red Army wore a version in the early years of WW2. (but in khaki and caled a ''budionovka''). --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 10:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
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=='''Wee''' hags==<br />
<br />
Can anyone confirm that they ever called anyone but Tiffany the "big '''wee''' hag"? I don't recall and it seems unlikely. I think she's the only wee hag they know; Miss Level is full-sized and elderly. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 21:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
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It was only Tiffany. They called all witches hags but Tiffany was the big wee hag or their big wee hag. --Confusion 20:39, 25 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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== Should this be added? ==<br />
<br />
In the extras section of one of the Harper-collin Tiffany Aching series books (I think it was {{W}} but I can't be sure) Pratchett describes the Feegles as ''Scottish Smurfs who've watched ''Braveheart'' one too many times.''<br />
<br />
Should this be added to the Pictsies article, or no? [[User:Doctor Whiteface|Doctor Whiteface]] 05:04, 6 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
It's an annotation, so I'd rather put it in a <nowiki>[[Book:Title/Annotations]]</nowiki> page. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==possible connection==<br />
<br />
Anyone else thinking of the Silastic Armourfiends of Striterax? Anyone? --[[User:Nowwaitjustaminutehere|Nowwaitjustaminutehere]]<br />
<br />
Interesting idea, but the only real comparison point is that both races like to fight - the Feegle are pretty much a low-tech SAS (interesting acronym on the part of Mr Adams) who are satisfied with the potential of heads, fists and feet. Although if you took them into space and showed them the potential, who knows, and in a fiht between the two, would you bet on the Armorfiends? (Douglas Adams deliberately used American spelling to describe a space-age race of bloodthirsty maniacs. Interesting detail.) [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 20:05, 30 June 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Just had an interesting glimmer on re-reading what I wrote in 2012. Games Workshop's Warhammer 40K is predicated on the various races of the fantasy world becoming technologically competent and colonising space, an unguessable time after their origins on LOTR/general fantasy worlds. So you get humans, Elves (touch case-hardened faced steel) and, err, Orks, roaming the galaxy beating each other up in a spirit of mutual genocidal loathing. What would a Pratchett-themed Warhammer 40K look like... the idea of interplanetary-capable Feegle out there beating things up and using high-tech weaponry, each Clan in its own spaceship captained by a Kelda... or maybe I need to get out more. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 10:07, 29 January 2018 (UTC)<br />
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I would say that the Armorfiends are more malevolent, while the Feegles are quite daft. It's like the difference between soldiers and the certain kinds of football fans; they are both likely to hurt you if you are wearing the wrong clothes, but one would cheerfully buy you a meat pie afterwards. Well, maybe. And the Feegles would never beat up a sack of [[Potato]]es.--[[User:Stanley Howler|Stanley Howler]] 22:14, 1 July 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Cost_of_Living_in_Ankh-Morpork&diff=28885Cost of Living in Ankh-Morpork2018-01-29T09:44:02Z<p>AgProv: /* Food and drink */ expanding</p>
<hr />
<div>This is an article that began in the "discussion" pages of the [[Curry Gardens]] entry, which attempts to piece together what the everyday costs of living are for a typical [[Ankh-Morpork]] citizen. It's just got to be too big for its original page and has spilled over into areas which are not, strictly speaking, to do with spicy [[Klatch]]ian foodstuffs or the purveyors thereof.<br />
<br />
This is a honest attempt to analyze the everyday economics of the Discworld and to assess how well it all fits together, using wages and costs quoted in the books. My intuition is that it will all come together, with a bit of tweaking, in surprising ways that TP never consciously intended when he thought he was plucking figures out of the air to add background detail to the life of the city. Consider the first section, based on the given costs of a curry at the Curry Gardens, compared to the known take-home pay of a lance-constable in the Watch, using Roundworld equivalent costings as an analogue. It all fitted, spookily well..<br />
<br />
<br />
If the starting salary for a Watchman is $30 a month, we can assume this is a dollar a day.<br />
<br />
Somebody on a £200 a week takehome pay in Britain is effectively earning £40 a day. (Let's assume £40 sterling equals $AM1)<br />
<br />
A curry and rice meal from my local takeaway is around £5. This equates to the 10-15 AM pence quoted in the text. <br />
<br />
£5 = 12.5% of that £40 daily pay.<br />
<br />
The "mean" value between 10p (unnamed meat curry) and 15p (curry with named meat) is 12.5 pence. <br />
<br />
So the watchman going to the Curry Gardens for a takeaway at the end of a shift is also paying, on average, 12.5% of his daily pay on that basic curry and rice meal... (unless he's [[Fred Colon]] and scrounging it for free}<br />
<br />
I wonder how far other comparisons of this sort would work out? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:31, 12 June 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Hmm, as the new book {{MM}} deals with the finance and economics of [[Ankh-Morpork]], it might be interesting to expand this discussion on the everyday economics of life in A-M and see if it all fits together. I suspect it will, in some surprising ways that TP never consciously intended. Look at the way the [[Book:The Discworld Mapp|Mappe]] of A-M came together without any need to rewrite the books, as if on some level somebody had already drawn it, and it just needed to be pulled off a shelf in the Reference section of [[L-space]]...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:19, 28 September 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Pay Rates==<br />
<br />
''What do various levels of occupation attract by means of remuneration?''<br />
<br />
Watch Lance-constable: $AM30 per month (prior to deductions and claimable expenses).<br />
<br />
A "sliding scale" applies for higher ranks:- <br />
$AM40 for a Sergeant<br />
$AM50+ for officers.<br />
<br />
[[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]: we know the [[Mavolio Bent|chief Cashier]] is on $AM47 per month (pay rise to $AM65 pending).<br />
<br />
The [[Moist von Lipwig|Postmaster General]], by contrast, is paid $AM80 per month, with food, uniform, and accommodation provided gratis. As this remains his substantive job, we should assume he remains on this pay scale while on detached service at the Royal Bank.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, a general hand (unskilled labour) at [[Hobson's Livery Stable]] receives 50 pence a day - assuming a six-day week, $AM3.00 per week? <br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, [[Bill Door]]'s starting pay as a farm-hand is sixpence a day - although accommodation and food are provided gratis.<br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the Director of the Opera is on $AM40 per month. At the same time, [[Seldom Bucket]] offered to raise [[Walter Plinge]]'s pay to six, no, ''seven'' shiny dollars a month!! Walter was therefore on a monthly pay of five, or less, dollars, as general hand and unskilled worker? (This equates neatly to the 50p/ten shillings a day, earned by the unskilled labourer at Hobson's). <br />
<br />
[[Agnes Nitt|Trainee singers and dancers]] are on "very little" (described as "less than you'd get for scrubbing floors") but get board and lodging thrown in for free. However, bonus payments are given of up to five dollars per performance if there is any sort of risk of being killed on stage, or in recompense for the trauma of seeing a fellow cast member die in the line of [[Opera House|Opera]].<br />
<br />
Hired muscle: the going rate for [[Trolls|troll]] bodyguards is apparently two dollars per day plus walking-about-looking-mean money. (As [[Myria LeJean]] discovers in {{TOT}}).<br />
<br />
A senior journalist on the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] such as [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] was being paid two dollars a day, plus expenses and bonuses, by the end of {{TT}}. Sacharissa's bonuses included access to a massive wardrobe of ball gowns and her expenses included the cost of taking them in. Other journalists and staff writers were either on piece rates or a dollar a day basic. <br />
<br />
Domestic servants: When [[Tiffany Aching]], aged thirteen, leaves the Chalk to train as a witch in [[Lancre]], the cover-story used by the Witches is that she is going into domestic service as a Maid. Tiffany notes they have gone to some trouble to get the wage rates and working conditions sounding right. Tiffany is agreed to be worth, because of her prowess with cheese, four dollars a month, her own bed, one day off per week and a week's holiday at Hogswatch. The text notes that three dollars a month would be underpayment, and five dollars a month just that suspicious bit too generous. <br />
<br />
Heretofore, in {{MM}}, was paid fofty dollars a month as Cosmo Lavish's private secretary. However, as Lavish was insane, this may be atypical. An alternative picture - given that Lavish, in his "I am Vetinari" insanity, called his secretary Drumknott, suggests he is making a fetish of matching the wage Vetinari paid his secretary. <br />
<br />
A top fashion model such as [[Juliet Stollop]] ''begins'' at $AM25 for a single appearance. Glenda Sugarbean reflected that this is ''more'', for a couple of hours work, than she receives in a month as a senior cook/manager. <br />
<br />
===The super-rich===<br />
<br />
[[Samuel Vimes]] was consternated to be told that, on marrying [[Sybil Ramkin]], his net worth was $AM7,000,000 ''per year''. Can this be taken as typical for the very richest in society?<br />
<br />
(At this point another consideration to be taken into account is '''[[Creaser|taxes]]''', as [[Samuel Vimes]] is on record, in a room full of rich tax-evaders, as saying he pays his. What are the City taxes and how are they assessed?)<br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, we hear of the wranglings between the University and the Patrician as to whether the city's ''per capita'' tax applied to wizards. This tax is explicitly described as $AM200 per head, payable in four quarterly instalments of $AM50. Several problems emerge instantly when analysing this. For instance, [[Topsy Lavish]] implied that the majority of poorer people in Ankh-Morpork are on incomes of $AM150 a year or less for ''all'' expenses. (This estimate is supported in {{UA}}, when Glenda Sugarbean reflects that a pair of high-end fashion boots from [[Shatta]] cost $AM400 - Glenda notes this is about the average yearly income for a full family in her part of town). A tax of $AM200 would be impractical (and uncollectable?). Also, in a city of a million people, this implies Vetinari would have an annual taxable income of $AM200,000,000. This is hardly in-keeping with the air of a great city, fallen from grace and poverty-stricken, that he very carefully projects when asked for money. This also places a very optimistic gloss on the willingness of AM citizens to pay tax! (Reference Carrot's patient memory-jogging session with the Dwarf bakers in {{MAA}}). Not to mention the City's ability to collect, which Vetinari concedes at the end of {{MM}} is in urgent need of review.<br />
<br />
One would suspect that a City poll tax exists, but is very carefully gradated to reflect ability to pay - i.e., an institution such as the University, perceived to be rich, pays more for its fully graduated wizards than, say, for non-teaching staff or students. It may even be charged with collecting this on behalf of the City and handing over an agreed lump sum (the text of {{RM}} implies this). In which case other informal "honesty-box" arrangements may exist with other Guilds and institutions.<br />
<br />
==The "general headings" for most peoples' expenditure, post-tax and deductions== <br />
<br />
<br />
===Rent and accommodation===<br />
(including "utilities" - cost of staying warm and lit indoors). Generally rent - not much of a mortgage market in A-M? <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, Mrs [[Spent]] offers [[Ossie Brunt]]'s old room at $AM2 per week: this is for an almost unfurnished room that only has a ramshackle bed in it. Oh, and a broken window.<br />
<br />
In {{GP}}, the three members of [[the Smoking Gnu]] "rent" accommodation at the [[Post Office]] for $AM3.00 per week. As this was to provide [[Tolliver Groat]] and [[Stanley Howler]] with some sort of subsistence income in lieu of pay they were not receiving, the assumption could be that Groat, a man who had to be worldly-wise in this respect, was charging the going rate plus some "silence money" on top, as he sensed the Gnu were not completely legitimate.<br />
<br />
In {{NW}}, [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] negotiates a rate of five dollars per month with full board for a room at [[John Lawn]]'s. Although part of this could have been nuisance money.<br />
<br />
===Real Estate===<br />
In {{M!!!}}, it is revealed that the value of the [[Opera House]] when last up for sale was $AM30,000 for the whole building and the business. although Mr [[Salzella]] lets slip to [[Seldom Bucket]] that the previous owner was so keen to sell that he would have been happy with $AM25,000. Elsewhere in {{M!!!}}, Nanny Ogg exclaims you could buy a whole ''shop'' for $50 - although it is unclear as to how accurate this is and what the precise terms of reference are. (Premises? Lease? Stock?)<br />
<br />
===Food and drink===<br />
How do people eat? We've already done a comparison on the cost of a takeaway and found it costs roughly the same proportion of daily pay in Ankh-Morpork as in Manchester. But food bought in and cooked at home?<br />
<br />
We know one [[elim]] will buy one very small potato. So a full penny - sixteen elims - might buy enough potatoes for a meal for one, perhaps two? (Assuming "small potato" might equate to "Jersey New" - ie, about half the size of a golf ball, at their biggest).<br />
<br />
In {{T5E}}, we discover the cost of a plucked and prepared chicken ready for cooking is $AM1 in the city. This fits, as historically chicken has always been something of a luxury meat: it's only in the last thirty years or so that poultry prices have dropped to the extent that it has become an everyday commonplace. (Comedian Spike Milligan recalls that in the 1930's, Christmas dinner was the rare treat of chicken. His family couldn't afford turkey and most weeks of the year they couldn't even afford chicken). A chicken would have been kept for the ongoing resource it provided in the form of eggs, and it would only have gone into the pot right at the very end of its life.<br />
<br />
Out in the countryside, the availability of chicken increases, while transportation costs decline, so prices drop to 10 pence per bird. <br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, an unspecified weight of butchered rat fillets costs two pence. This must be a substantial weight, as the blood content is more than ample to satiate the primal urge of a vampire on the brink of renouncing Temperance. As rat is a relatively cheap meat, (and as far as we know eaten only by Dwarfs) would other available meatstuffs take their price cue from the "rat standard"? <br />
<br />
It's interesting that the going rate for unbutchered fresh rat carcasses is three for two pence (from the litany of grumbles made by Wee Mad Arthur, rat-catcher) and prime fillets taken from choice areas sell for as much as an entire carcass. A complication is that when in {{M!!!}}, [[Walter Plinge]] takes over the duties of Rat-Catcher from Mr [[Pounder]], assisted by [[Greebo]], he exclaims that the dead rats they have collected will sell to [[Gimlet]] for a half-penny - ''each''. This represents a better deal than Wee Mad Arthur was able to get. <br />
<br />
In {{FOC}}, we can infer the cost of Ecstatic-One-Hundred-And-Fifty-Minutes (getting the whole of a packed Drum incapably drunk up to and including sale of pints of gin) was $AM25, less three pence in change. <br />
<br />
According to the [[goblin]] Regret of the Falling Leaf, one can purchase a Special Reserve Cognac from [[Quirm]] for AM$60 from [[Horrids]] on [[Broadway]], although there is a two-for-one deal at the Twister Boote's bottle shop in [[The Shades|the Shades]]- although the latter does have a slight taste of anchovy. This is surprisingly expensive, especially by Shades standards, but it is to be presumed that anything foreign is worth the extra money.<br />
<br />
Also from {{FOC}}, there is the throwaway line that a dollar buys a loaf of bread - this is ridiculously expensive for a staple foodstuff. Perhaps this is a case of TP pulling a figure out of the air to illustrate a point about relative affluence - ie, gnomes and pictsies can earn as much as a human, but require far less in the way of food and in any case can make a home from a hollowed out stale loaf (of dwarf bread? Must be like a prefab made out of breezeblock). Maybe TP did the same not as actual cost but as illustration of the principle involved when defining the Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of economic inequality - in this, the cost of a pair of boots is also pitched unfeasibly high, as has been noted.<br />
<br />
===Clothing===<br />
Historically, clothing was ''always'' more expensive in previous centuries, viewed as a higher proportion of one's weekly income. The individual would own less clothes but pay more for them. <br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the cost of a bespoke, haute couture, ballgown is given as $AM 300-500. This is hardly representative: in {{TT}}, [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] considered $AM40 would be the price for a dress you wear at a ball given by [[Selachii|Lady Selachii]] and she couldn't afford that kind of money. On the other hand, [[William de Worde|William de Worde's]] sister would be shocked to find anyone could spend as little as forty dollars for a dress. Similarly, the disgusting and loathsome [[Crispin Horsefry]], surely the Disc's first proto-Yuppie, spends $AM100 ''on a single shirt'' - because he ''can'', not because the shirt is in any justifiable sense worth $100. A pair of ''really expensive'' fashion boots for Dwarfs costs $AM400 from [[Shatta]]. <br />
<br />
In {{M}}, we meet the landlord of [[The Quene's Head/Duke's Head]], and discover that he is considered affluent because he owns two shirts (one green, one yellow). <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, we learn of the [[Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice]]: a ''really'' good pair of boots might be bought for $AM50. However, on a watchman's pay, even an officer's, he might struggle to get a "cheap" pair for $AM10....<br />
<br />
The cost of a new gentleman's suit, with a spare pair of trousers possibly thrown in, is quoted in the early pages of {{RM}} as being $7. (As Ridcully points out, though, this is on the cheap side). <br />
<br />
But then, there's always the [[Soon Shine Sun|Shonky Shop]], for items of clothing that look nostalgically back on the days when they were merely second-hand...<br />
<br />
====Underwear====<br />
[[Lu-Tze]], in {{TOT}}, informs us that Mrs.[[Marietta Cosmopilite]], in accordance with the ''koan'' ''"Wrap up warm, or you'll catch your death"'', will do bespoke long johns, described as ''double-knit combinations, silk on the inside, then three layers of wool, with two handy trapdoors'' for $AM6 a pair, as he's an old and valued customer. However, she apparently can't turn a heel worth a damn. No prices are yet quoted for the products constructed for ladies who need to watch their figures, those who are perhaps more pint glass than hourglass, by [[Burleigh and Spoke]].<br />
<br />
===Necessary bills===<br />
No state schools - therefore school fees for all children. <br />
*''Contingencies'': I'm assuming there is neither an NHS nor a welfare state in Ankh-Morpork. This heading might cover doctors' bills/general medical, dental (such as it is)<br />
<br />
Some occupations, such as Watchman, come with free medical care, in the form of an [[Igor]], and occasional recourse to Dr. [[John Lawn|Lawn]] where this is needed. Assassins have a retained [[Doctor]] at their [[Assassins' Guild|Guild]], but Assassination is an occupation that might be considered that of a self-employed professional, or providing a pocket-money second income to a gentleman who is already well provided for and would be expected to meet his own medical expenses privately. <br />
<br />
A comment in {{FOC}} suggests the cost of even an unsuccessful consultation with a doctor is AM$30.00, but this is a month's pay to many people and seems excessive. Indeed, in {{NW}}, John Lawn charges [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] AM$6.00 for resetting and plastering the broken arm of an injured [[Cable Street Particulars|Unmentionable]]. It is hinted that this is an inflated fee, dependent on: (i) it being the middle of the night; (ii) the patient being a Cable Street Particular, who Mossy despises for professional reasons; (iii) this being all the money the man had on him when searched. Mossy's actual usual fee might have been far lower. <br />
<br />
Like officers in certain upscale Army regiments, who are expected to be gentlemen of independent means, the official pay would just be small change and very few would rely on this alone for some sort of a living income. This last point is borne out in {{MR}}, where it has been calculated that the official salary of a very junior officer (in the Borogravian Army at least) is approximately seven AM shillings per day (subject to rates of exhange and the fact that the Borogravian currency is considered to be "fiat money" by the rest of the Disc's banking experts). This is a pay of AM$28-30 per month - on a par with an Ankhian Watchman, and surely not something an officer and a gentleman should be expected to live on alone! <br />
<br />
(''Economics Note: "Fiat Money"'':- Money whose declared value is unsupported by the usual sort of economic indicators, ie high GDP, balance of payment surplus, gold and currency reserves, desirable export goods. For instance, the old Soviet Union unilaterally declared the exchange rate of the rouble to the dollar was 1:1, where had the Soviet currency been allowed to find its own worth on the capitalist money markets, the true exchange rate might have been 60:1. By decree - '''''fiat''''' - , the Soviets artificially inflated the worth of their currency sixty-fold, but could only really enforce this where the Russian writ ran - the Warsaw Pact states, North Korea, Cuba, and any luckless visitors to the USSR who had to exchange at the official rate. When you know what you're looking for, Borogravian money in {{MR}} is a fiat currency - worth its face value only where this can be enforced, and because the Duchess has decreed it to be so. Fiat currencies are usually the last brute-force method of maintaining some sort of economic stability and staving off final collapse when all else has failed, or an economy has been fatally wounded by internal collapse, prolonged war, or consistently faulty economic assumptions. Regard modern Zimbabwe, inter-war Germany, or Nazi Germany in the last couple of years of WW2, having unaccountably made all its neighbours into implacable enemies and needing to pay the fabulous costs of total war.) <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, the cost of a month's education at the Spiteful Sisters of [[Seven-Handed Sek]] Charity School is given as $AM2.00. Therefore yearly fees at a typical school - i.e., one accessible to ordinary people &ndash; might be no more than $AM24 per year.<br />
<br />
===Entertainment===<br />
What do you do with your free time?<br />
<br />
A box at the opera is $AM50 per performance, but the stalls will be cheaper. <br />
<br />
In {{MM}} the [[Mavolio Bent|Chief Cashier]] says that a penny can buy you a seat at the theatre for a hour. It is unknown what theatre he means, or whether he's just being poetic.<br />
<br />
Entry to the [[Odium]] to watch {{MP}} cost 5p, later increased to 10p. On a par with the music hall?<br />
<br />
A [[Twopenny Upright]] is slang for a very basic service from a Seamstress, although it is very likely that while the term remains in current slang, the basic service costs a little bit more than that. Perhaps a broad-minded researcher could locate a price list?<br />
<br />
Mrs [[Evadne Cake]] provides two levels of mediumistic intercession with the future and the next world. Tenpence buys you what she sees. Ten dollars pays for what actually happens.<br />
<br />
===Savings?=== <br />
Or would saving in a "funeral club" count as a deduction prior to receiving bulk residue of pay? <br />
<br />
We now know from {{MM}} that the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] offers interest on small bank accounts, which must over time add to sources of income for account-holders. <br />
<br />
===[[Public transportation|Travel]]===<br />
<br />
A cab fare from the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Elm Street]] is eleven pence. ({{MM}}) It is informally expected a horse cab driver be tipped no less than 10%. ({{CAM}}) <br />
<br />
The coach fare from [[Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Lancre]] is $AM50 ($AM40 is a [[Bandits' Guild]] surcharge). ({{LL}})<br />
<br />
And now, of course, there are the horse omnibuses, the troll cars from {{UA}}, and golem horses from {{SN}} to price into the picture!<br />
<br />
A wider picture is provided in {{CAM}}: the short route from Sator Square to Dolly Sisters is charged at 2p. It is not unreasonable to suggest multiples of 2p are charged for progressively longer distances. <br />
<br />
The night bus from Ankh-Morpork to Sto Lat charges a single fare of two dollars fifty pence.<br />
<br />
Troll taxis (effectively a sedan chair attached to the back of a troll) are charged at approximately double the cost of a bus journey over a comparable distance, although fares into the Shades are surcharged because of the graffiti problem. {{CAM}}<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
<br />
We learn from the [[Yeti|yeti]]-hunters in {{TOT}} that the feet alone of a Yeti can be resold, for certain Agatean medical preparations, for $AM1,000. The pelt is worth an additional $AM900.<br />
<br />
The accepted salary threshold, below which a person is deemed too impecunious to be able to afford the sort of personalised, indeed bespoke, service, offered by the [[Assassins' Guild]], is $AM10,000. Those earning below this yearly income may sometimes come to the notice of the Guild, but many assassins won't bother getting out of bed for small change of this nature. They are certainly thought of as only just being able to afford the Guild's services, if their income is at, or only just exceeds, this level.<br />
<br />
In fairness, the cheapest inhumation on the Guild books is the contract out on Corporal [[Nobby Nobbs]] of the Watch. Including the mandatory 50% Guild Tax, this stands at $AM1.00. (This is only nominal, as no self-respecting Assassin would work for so little, especially if it involves a high risk of being shouted at by Sam Vimes.)<br />
<br />
Lord [[de Worde]] believed that anyone earning less than $1,000 per year was by inference a member of the criminal classes. <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, the cost of a [[Dis-organiser]], being as it is the product of advanced technomancy, is $300.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, Otto Chriek expresses a desire for the top-of-the-range Agatean "Akina" iconograph, which has the equivalent of an SLR lens (the demon has a telescopic seat allowing him to get right up close for ''really'' fine detail), together with other buzzers and flashing lights. This is $AM180.<br />
<br />
A bag of fertile soil from one of [[Harry King|Harry Kings]] compost heaps is 10p; but you have to bring your own bag. More ''specialised'' waste from the [[Menagerie]] is priced correspondingly higher: but there's nothing like lion or leopard dung scattered in your flower beds to ward off lesser animals, who can deduce from the presence of lion dung that a lion is nearby and they'd better not hang around to contribute to the next lot. <br />
<br />
The perfume from [[Quirm]], Cedar Fragrance Pour Hommes, is available for AM$15 a pop.<br />
<br />
==Information to be added==<br />
<br />
We should diligently extract examples of given wages and costs from the books, list them under expenditure and income, and see if they stack up.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:02, 7 November 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
[[Category: Discworld culture]]<br />
[[de:Ankh-Morpork Dollar]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Cost_of_Living_in_Ankh-Morpork&diff=28884Cost of Living in Ankh-Morpork2018-01-29T09:40:59Z<p>AgProv: /* Real Estate */ expanding</p>
<hr />
<div>This is an article that began in the "discussion" pages of the [[Curry Gardens]] entry, which attempts to piece together what the everyday costs of living are for a typical [[Ankh-Morpork]] citizen. It's just got to be too big for its original page and has spilled over into areas which are not, strictly speaking, to do with spicy [[Klatch]]ian foodstuffs or the purveyors thereof.<br />
<br />
This is a honest attempt to analyze the everyday economics of the Discworld and to assess how well it all fits together, using wages and costs quoted in the books. My intuition is that it will all come together, with a bit of tweaking, in surprising ways that TP never consciously intended when he thought he was plucking figures out of the air to add background detail to the life of the city. Consider the first section, based on the given costs of a curry at the Curry Gardens, compared to the known take-home pay of a lance-constable in the Watch, using Roundworld equivalent costings as an analogue. It all fitted, spookily well..<br />
<br />
<br />
If the starting salary for a Watchman is $30 a month, we can assume this is a dollar a day.<br />
<br />
Somebody on a £200 a week takehome pay in Britain is effectively earning £40 a day. (Let's assume £40 sterling equals $AM1)<br />
<br />
A curry and rice meal from my local takeaway is around £5. This equates to the 10-15 AM pence quoted in the text. <br />
<br />
£5 = 12.5% of that £40 daily pay.<br />
<br />
The "mean" value between 10p (unnamed meat curry) and 15p (curry with named meat) is 12.5 pence. <br />
<br />
So the watchman going to the Curry Gardens for a takeaway at the end of a shift is also paying, on average, 12.5% of his daily pay on that basic curry and rice meal... (unless he's [[Fred Colon]] and scrounging it for free}<br />
<br />
I wonder how far other comparisons of this sort would work out? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:31, 12 June 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Hmm, as the new book {{MM}} deals with the finance and economics of [[Ankh-Morpork]], it might be interesting to expand this discussion on the everyday economics of life in A-M and see if it all fits together. I suspect it will, in some surprising ways that TP never consciously intended. Look at the way the [[Book:The Discworld Mapp|Mappe]] of A-M came together without any need to rewrite the books, as if on some level somebody had already drawn it, and it just needed to be pulled off a shelf in the Reference section of [[L-space]]...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:19, 28 September 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Pay Rates==<br />
<br />
''What do various levels of occupation attract by means of remuneration?''<br />
<br />
Watch Lance-constable: $AM30 per month (prior to deductions and claimable expenses).<br />
<br />
A "sliding scale" applies for higher ranks:- <br />
$AM40 for a Sergeant<br />
$AM50+ for officers.<br />
<br />
[[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]: we know the [[Mavolio Bent|chief Cashier]] is on $AM47 per month (pay rise to $AM65 pending).<br />
<br />
The [[Moist von Lipwig|Postmaster General]], by contrast, is paid $AM80 per month, with food, uniform, and accommodation provided gratis. As this remains his substantive job, we should assume he remains on this pay scale while on detached service at the Royal Bank.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, a general hand (unskilled labour) at [[Hobson's Livery Stable]] receives 50 pence a day - assuming a six-day week, $AM3.00 per week? <br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, [[Bill Door]]'s starting pay as a farm-hand is sixpence a day - although accommodation and food are provided gratis.<br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the Director of the Opera is on $AM40 per month. At the same time, [[Seldom Bucket]] offered to raise [[Walter Plinge]]'s pay to six, no, ''seven'' shiny dollars a month!! Walter was therefore on a monthly pay of five, or less, dollars, as general hand and unskilled worker? (This equates neatly to the 50p/ten shillings a day, earned by the unskilled labourer at Hobson's). <br />
<br />
[[Agnes Nitt|Trainee singers and dancers]] are on "very little" (described as "less than you'd get for scrubbing floors") but get board and lodging thrown in for free. However, bonus payments are given of up to five dollars per performance if there is any sort of risk of being killed on stage, or in recompense for the trauma of seeing a fellow cast member die in the line of [[Opera House|Opera]].<br />
<br />
Hired muscle: the going rate for [[Trolls|troll]] bodyguards is apparently two dollars per day plus walking-about-looking-mean money. (As [[Myria LeJean]] discovers in {{TOT}}).<br />
<br />
A senior journalist on the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] such as [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] was being paid two dollars a day, plus expenses and bonuses, by the end of {{TT}}. Sacharissa's bonuses included access to a massive wardrobe of ball gowns and her expenses included the cost of taking them in. Other journalists and staff writers were either on piece rates or a dollar a day basic. <br />
<br />
Domestic servants: When [[Tiffany Aching]], aged thirteen, leaves the Chalk to train as a witch in [[Lancre]], the cover-story used by the Witches is that she is going into domestic service as a Maid. Tiffany notes they have gone to some trouble to get the wage rates and working conditions sounding right. Tiffany is agreed to be worth, because of her prowess with cheese, four dollars a month, her own bed, one day off per week and a week's holiday at Hogswatch. The text notes that three dollars a month would be underpayment, and five dollars a month just that suspicious bit too generous. <br />
<br />
Heretofore, in {{MM}}, was paid fofty dollars a month as Cosmo Lavish's private secretary. However, as Lavish was insane, this may be atypical. An alternative picture - given that Lavish, in his "I am Vetinari" insanity, called his secretary Drumknott, suggests he is making a fetish of matching the wage Vetinari paid his secretary. <br />
<br />
A top fashion model such as [[Juliet Stollop]] ''begins'' at $AM25 for a single appearance. Glenda Sugarbean reflected that this is ''more'', for a couple of hours work, than she receives in a month as a senior cook/manager. <br />
<br />
===The super-rich===<br />
<br />
[[Samuel Vimes]] was consternated to be told that, on marrying [[Sybil Ramkin]], his net worth was $AM7,000,000 ''per year''. Can this be taken as typical for the very richest in society?<br />
<br />
(At this point another consideration to be taken into account is '''[[Creaser|taxes]]''', as [[Samuel Vimes]] is on record, in a room full of rich tax-evaders, as saying he pays his. What are the City taxes and how are they assessed?)<br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, we hear of the wranglings between the University and the Patrician as to whether the city's ''per capita'' tax applied to wizards. This tax is explicitly described as $AM200 per head, payable in four quarterly instalments of $AM50. Several problems emerge instantly when analysing this. For instance, [[Topsy Lavish]] implied that the majority of poorer people in Ankh-Morpork are on incomes of $AM150 a year or less for ''all'' expenses. (This estimate is supported in {{UA}}, when Glenda Sugarbean reflects that a pair of high-end fashion boots from [[Shatta]] cost $AM400 - Glenda notes this is about the average yearly income for a full family in her part of town). A tax of $AM200 would be impractical (and uncollectable?). Also, in a city of a million people, this implies Vetinari would have an annual taxable income of $AM200,000,000. This is hardly in-keeping with the air of a great city, fallen from grace and poverty-stricken, that he very carefully projects when asked for money. This also places a very optimistic gloss on the willingness of AM citizens to pay tax! (Reference Carrot's patient memory-jogging session with the Dwarf bakers in {{MAA}}). Not to mention the City's ability to collect, which Vetinari concedes at the end of {{MM}} is in urgent need of review.<br />
<br />
One would suspect that a City poll tax exists, but is very carefully gradated to reflect ability to pay - i.e., an institution such as the University, perceived to be rich, pays more for its fully graduated wizards than, say, for non-teaching staff or students. It may even be charged with collecting this on behalf of the City and handing over an agreed lump sum (the text of {{RM}} implies this). In which case other informal "honesty-box" arrangements may exist with other Guilds and institutions.<br />
<br />
==The "general headings" for most peoples' expenditure, post-tax and deductions== <br />
<br />
<br />
===Rent and accommodation===<br />
(including "utilities" - cost of staying warm and lit indoors). Generally rent - not much of a mortgage market in A-M? <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, Mrs [[Spent]] offers [[Ossie Brunt]]'s old room at $AM2 per week: this is for an almost unfurnished room that only has a ramshackle bed in it. Oh, and a broken window.<br />
<br />
In {{GP}}, the three members of [[the Smoking Gnu]] "rent" accommodation at the [[Post Office]] for $AM3.00 per week. As this was to provide [[Tolliver Groat]] and [[Stanley Howler]] with some sort of subsistence income in lieu of pay they were not receiving, the assumption could be that Groat, a man who had to be worldly-wise in this respect, was charging the going rate plus some "silence money" on top, as he sensed the Gnu were not completely legitimate.<br />
<br />
In {{NW}}, [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] negotiates a rate of five dollars per month with full board for a room at [[John Lawn]]'s. Although part of this could have been nuisance money.<br />
<br />
===Real Estate===<br />
In {{M!!!}}, it is revealed that the value of the [[Opera House]] when last up for sale was $AM30,000 for the whole building and the business. although Mr [[Salzella]] lets slip to [[Seldom Bucket]] that the previous owner was so keen to sell that he would have been happy with $AM25,000. Elsewhere in {{M!!!}}, Nanny Ogg exclaims you could buy a whole ''shop'' for $50 - although it is unclear as to how accurate this is and what the precise terms of reference are. (Premises? Lease? Stock?)<br />
<br />
===Food and drink===<br />
How do people eat? We've already done a comparison on the cost of a takeaway and found it costs roughly the same proportion of daily pay in Ankh-Morpork as in Manchester. But food bought in and cooked at home?<br />
<br />
We know one [[elim]] will buy one very small potato. So a full penny - sixteen elims - might buy enough potatoes for a meal for one, perhaps two? (Assuming "small potato" might equate to "Jersey New" - ie, about half the size of a golf ball, at their biggest).<br />
<br />
In {{T5E}}, we discover the cost of a plucked and prepared chicken ready for cooking is $AM1 in the city. This fits, as historically chicken has always been something of a luxury meat: it's only in the last thirty years or so that poultry prices have dropped to the extent that it has become an everyday commonplace. (Comedian Spike Milligan recalls that in the 1930's, Christmas dinner was the rare treat of chicken. His family couldn't afford turkey and most weeks of the year they couldn't even afford chicken). A chicken would have been kept for the ongoing resource it provided in the form of eggs, and it would only have gone into the pot right at the very end of its life.<br />
<br />
Out in the countryside, the availability of chicken increases, while transportation costs decline, so prices drop to 10 pence per bird. <br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, an unspecified weight of butchered rat fillets costs two pence. This must be a substantial weight, as the blood content is more than ample to satiate the primal urge of a vampire on the brink of renouncing Temperance. As rat is a relatively cheap meat, (and as far as we know eaten only by Dwarfs) would other available meatstuffs take their price cue from the "rat standard"? <br />
<br />
It's interesting that the going rate for unbutchered fresh rat carcasses is three for two pence (from the litany of grumbles made by Wee Mad Arthur, rat-catcher) and prime fillets taken from choice areas sell for as much as an entire carcass. <br />
<br />
In {{FOC}}, we can infer the cost of Ecstatic-One-Hundred-And-Fifty-Minutes (getting the whole of a packed Drum incapably drunk up to and including sale of pints of gin) was $AM25, less three pence in change. <br />
<br />
According to the [[goblin]] Regret of the Falling Leaf, one can purchase a Special Reserve Cognac from [[Quirm]] for AM$60 from [[Horrids]] on [[Broadway]], although there is a two-for-one deal at the Twister Boote's bottle shop in [[The Shades|the Shades]]- although the latter does have a slight taste of anchovy. This is surprisingly expensive, especially by Shades standards, but it is to be presumed that anything foreign is worth the extra money.<br />
<br />
Also from {{FOC}}, there is the throwaway line that a dollar buys a loaf of bread - this is ridiculously expensive for a staple foodstuff. Perhaps this is a case of TP pulling a figure out of the air to illustrate a point about relative affluence - ie, gnomes and pictsies can earn as much as a human, but require far less in the way of food and in any case can make a home from a hollowed out stale loaf (of dwarf bread? Must be like a prefab made out of breezeblock). Maybe TP did the same not as actual cost but as illustration of the principle involved when defining the Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of economic inequality - in this, the cost of a pair of boots is also pitched unfeasibly high, as has been noted.<br />
<br />
===Clothing===<br />
Historically, clothing was ''always'' more expensive in previous centuries, viewed as a higher proportion of one's weekly income. The individual would own less clothes but pay more for them. <br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the cost of a bespoke, haute couture, ballgown is given as $AM 300-500. This is hardly representative: in {{TT}}, [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] considered $AM40 would be the price for a dress you wear at a ball given by [[Selachii|Lady Selachii]] and she couldn't afford that kind of money. On the other hand, [[William de Worde|William de Worde's]] sister would be shocked to find anyone could spend as little as forty dollars for a dress. Similarly, the disgusting and loathsome [[Crispin Horsefry]], surely the Disc's first proto-Yuppie, spends $AM100 ''on a single shirt'' - because he ''can'', not because the shirt is in any justifiable sense worth $100. A pair of ''really expensive'' fashion boots for Dwarfs costs $AM400 from [[Shatta]]. <br />
<br />
In {{M}}, we meet the landlord of [[The Quene's Head/Duke's Head]], and discover that he is considered affluent because he owns two shirts (one green, one yellow). <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, we learn of the [[Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice]]: a ''really'' good pair of boots might be bought for $AM50. However, on a watchman's pay, even an officer's, he might struggle to get a "cheap" pair for $AM10....<br />
<br />
The cost of a new gentleman's suit, with a spare pair of trousers possibly thrown in, is quoted in the early pages of {{RM}} as being $7. (As Ridcully points out, though, this is on the cheap side). <br />
<br />
But then, there's always the [[Soon Shine Sun|Shonky Shop]], for items of clothing that look nostalgically back on the days when they were merely second-hand...<br />
<br />
====Underwear====<br />
[[Lu-Tze]], in {{TOT}}, informs us that Mrs.[[Marietta Cosmopilite]], in accordance with the ''koan'' ''"Wrap up warm, or you'll catch your death"'', will do bespoke long johns, described as ''double-knit combinations, silk on the inside, then three layers of wool, with two handy trapdoors'' for $AM6 a pair, as he's an old and valued customer. However, she apparently can't turn a heel worth a damn. No prices are yet quoted for the products constructed for ladies who need to watch their figures, those who are perhaps more pint glass than hourglass, by [[Burleigh and Spoke]].<br />
<br />
===Necessary bills===<br />
No state schools - therefore school fees for all children. <br />
*''Contingencies'': I'm assuming there is neither an NHS nor a welfare state in Ankh-Morpork. This heading might cover doctors' bills/general medical, dental (such as it is)<br />
<br />
Some occupations, such as Watchman, come with free medical care, in the form of an [[Igor]], and occasional recourse to Dr. [[John Lawn|Lawn]] where this is needed. Assassins have a retained [[Doctor]] at their [[Assassins' Guild|Guild]], but Assassination is an occupation that might be considered that of a self-employed professional, or providing a pocket-money second income to a gentleman who is already well provided for and would be expected to meet his own medical expenses privately. <br />
<br />
A comment in {{FOC}} suggests the cost of even an unsuccessful consultation with a doctor is AM$30.00, but this is a month's pay to many people and seems excessive. Indeed, in {{NW}}, John Lawn charges [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] AM$6.00 for resetting and plastering the broken arm of an injured [[Cable Street Particulars|Unmentionable]]. It is hinted that this is an inflated fee, dependent on: (i) it being the middle of the night; (ii) the patient being a Cable Street Particular, who Mossy despises for professional reasons; (iii) this being all the money the man had on him when searched. Mossy's actual usual fee might have been far lower. <br />
<br />
Like officers in certain upscale Army regiments, who are expected to be gentlemen of independent means, the official pay would just be small change and very few would rely on this alone for some sort of a living income. This last point is borne out in {{MR}}, where it has been calculated that the official salary of a very junior officer (in the Borogravian Army at least) is approximately seven AM shillings per day (subject to rates of exhange and the fact that the Borogravian currency is considered to be "fiat money" by the rest of the Disc's banking experts). This is a pay of AM$28-30 per month - on a par with an Ankhian Watchman, and surely not something an officer and a gentleman should be expected to live on alone! <br />
<br />
(''Economics Note: "Fiat Money"'':- Money whose declared value is unsupported by the usual sort of economic indicators, ie high GDP, balance of payment surplus, gold and currency reserves, desirable export goods. For instance, the old Soviet Union unilaterally declared the exchange rate of the rouble to the dollar was 1:1, where had the Soviet currency been allowed to find its own worth on the capitalist money markets, the true exchange rate might have been 60:1. By decree - '''''fiat''''' - , the Soviets artificially inflated the worth of their currency sixty-fold, but could only really enforce this where the Russian writ ran - the Warsaw Pact states, North Korea, Cuba, and any luckless visitors to the USSR who had to exchange at the official rate. When you know what you're looking for, Borogravian money in {{MR}} is a fiat currency - worth its face value only where this can be enforced, and because the Duchess has decreed it to be so. Fiat currencies are usually the last brute-force method of maintaining some sort of economic stability and staving off final collapse when all else has failed, or an economy has been fatally wounded by internal collapse, prolonged war, or consistently faulty economic assumptions. Regard modern Zimbabwe, inter-war Germany, or Nazi Germany in the last couple of years of WW2, having unaccountably made all its neighbours into implacable enemies and needing to pay the fabulous costs of total war.) <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, the cost of a month's education at the Spiteful Sisters of [[Seven-Handed Sek]] Charity School is given as $AM2.00. Therefore yearly fees at a typical school - i.e., one accessible to ordinary people &ndash; might be no more than $AM24 per year.<br />
<br />
===Entertainment===<br />
What do you do with your free time?<br />
<br />
A box at the opera is $AM50 per performance, but the stalls will be cheaper. <br />
<br />
In {{MM}} the [[Mavolio Bent|Chief Cashier]] says that a penny can buy you a seat at the theatre for a hour. It is unknown what theatre he means, or whether he's just being poetic.<br />
<br />
Entry to the [[Odium]] to watch {{MP}} cost 5p, later increased to 10p. On a par with the music hall?<br />
<br />
A [[Twopenny Upright]] is slang for a very basic service from a Seamstress, although it is very likely that while the term remains in current slang, the basic service costs a little bit more than that. Perhaps a broad-minded researcher could locate a price list?<br />
<br />
Mrs [[Evadne Cake]] provides two levels of mediumistic intercession with the future and the next world. Tenpence buys you what she sees. Ten dollars pays for what actually happens.<br />
<br />
===Savings?=== <br />
Or would saving in a "funeral club" count as a deduction prior to receiving bulk residue of pay? <br />
<br />
We now know from {{MM}} that the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] offers interest on small bank accounts, which must over time add to sources of income for account-holders. <br />
<br />
===[[Public transportation|Travel]]===<br />
<br />
A cab fare from the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Elm Street]] is eleven pence. ({{MM}}) It is informally expected a horse cab driver be tipped no less than 10%. ({{CAM}}) <br />
<br />
The coach fare from [[Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Lancre]] is $AM50 ($AM40 is a [[Bandits' Guild]] surcharge). ({{LL}})<br />
<br />
And now, of course, there are the horse omnibuses, the troll cars from {{UA}}, and golem horses from {{SN}} to price into the picture!<br />
<br />
A wider picture is provided in {{CAM}}: the short route from Sator Square to Dolly Sisters is charged at 2p. It is not unreasonable to suggest multiples of 2p are charged for progressively longer distances. <br />
<br />
The night bus from Ankh-Morpork to Sto Lat charges a single fare of two dollars fifty pence.<br />
<br />
Troll taxis (effectively a sedan chair attached to the back of a troll) are charged at approximately double the cost of a bus journey over a comparable distance, although fares into the Shades are surcharged because of the graffiti problem. {{CAM}}<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
<br />
We learn from the [[Yeti|yeti]]-hunters in {{TOT}} that the feet alone of a Yeti can be resold, for certain Agatean medical preparations, for $AM1,000. The pelt is worth an additional $AM900.<br />
<br />
The accepted salary threshold, below which a person is deemed too impecunious to be able to afford the sort of personalised, indeed bespoke, service, offered by the [[Assassins' Guild]], is $AM10,000. Those earning below this yearly income may sometimes come to the notice of the Guild, but many assassins won't bother getting out of bed for small change of this nature. They are certainly thought of as only just being able to afford the Guild's services, if their income is at, or only just exceeds, this level.<br />
<br />
In fairness, the cheapest inhumation on the Guild books is the contract out on Corporal [[Nobby Nobbs]] of the Watch. Including the mandatory 50% Guild Tax, this stands at $AM1.00. (This is only nominal, as no self-respecting Assassin would work for so little, especially if it involves a high risk of being shouted at by Sam Vimes.)<br />
<br />
Lord [[de Worde]] believed that anyone earning less than $1,000 per year was by inference a member of the criminal classes. <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, the cost of a [[Dis-organiser]], being as it is the product of advanced technomancy, is $300.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, Otto Chriek expresses a desire for the top-of-the-range Agatean "Akina" iconograph, which has the equivalent of an SLR lens (the demon has a telescopic seat allowing him to get right up close for ''really'' fine detail), together with other buzzers and flashing lights. This is $AM180.<br />
<br />
A bag of fertile soil from one of [[Harry King|Harry Kings]] compost heaps is 10p; but you have to bring your own bag. More ''specialised'' waste from the [[Menagerie]] is priced correspondingly higher: but there's nothing like lion or leopard dung scattered in your flower beds to ward off lesser animals, who can deduce from the presence of lion dung that a lion is nearby and they'd better not hang around to contribute to the next lot. <br />
<br />
The perfume from [[Quirm]], Cedar Fragrance Pour Hommes, is available for AM$15 a pop.<br />
<br />
==Information to be added==<br />
<br />
We should diligently extract examples of given wages and costs from the books, list them under expenditure and income, and see if they stack up.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:02, 7 November 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
[[Category: Discworld culture]]<br />
[[de:Ankh-Morpork Dollar]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Cost_of_Living_in_Ankh-Morpork&diff=28883Cost of Living in Ankh-Morpork2018-01-26T21:03:41Z<p>AgProv: /* Real Estate */ tidying!!!</p>
<hr />
<div>This is an article that began in the "discussion" pages of the [[Curry Gardens]] entry, which attempts to piece together what the everyday costs of living are for a typical [[Ankh-Morpork]] citizen. It's just got to be too big for its original page and has spilled over into areas which are not, strictly speaking, to do with spicy [[Klatch]]ian foodstuffs or the purveyors thereof.<br />
<br />
This is a honest attempt to analyze the everyday economics of the Discworld and to assess how well it all fits together, using wages and costs quoted in the books. My intuition is that it will all come together, with a bit of tweaking, in surprising ways that TP never consciously intended when he thought he was plucking figures out of the air to add background detail to the life of the city. Consider the first section, based on the given costs of a curry at the Curry Gardens, compared to the known take-home pay of a lance-constable in the Watch, using Roundworld equivalent costings as an analogue. It all fitted, spookily well..<br />
<br />
<br />
If the starting salary for a Watchman is $30 a month, we can assume this is a dollar a day.<br />
<br />
Somebody on a £200 a week takehome pay in Britain is effectively earning £40 a day. (Let's assume £40 sterling equals $AM1)<br />
<br />
A curry and rice meal from my local takeaway is around £5. This equates to the 10-15 AM pence quoted in the text. <br />
<br />
£5 = 12.5% of that £40 daily pay.<br />
<br />
The "mean" value between 10p (unnamed meat curry) and 15p (curry with named meat) is 12.5 pence. <br />
<br />
So the watchman going to the Curry Gardens for a takeaway at the end of a shift is also paying, on average, 12.5% of his daily pay on that basic curry and rice meal... (unless he's [[Fred Colon]] and scrounging it for free}<br />
<br />
I wonder how far other comparisons of this sort would work out? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:31, 12 June 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Hmm, as the new book {{MM}} deals with the finance and economics of [[Ankh-Morpork]], it might be interesting to expand this discussion on the everyday economics of life in A-M and see if it all fits together. I suspect it will, in some surprising ways that TP never consciously intended. Look at the way the [[Book:The Discworld Mapp|Mappe]] of A-M came together without any need to rewrite the books, as if on some level somebody had already drawn it, and it just needed to be pulled off a shelf in the Reference section of [[L-space]]...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:19, 28 September 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Pay Rates==<br />
<br />
''What do various levels of occupation attract by means of remuneration?''<br />
<br />
Watch Lance-constable: $AM30 per month (prior to deductions and claimable expenses).<br />
<br />
A "sliding scale" applies for higher ranks:- <br />
$AM40 for a Sergeant<br />
$AM50+ for officers.<br />
<br />
[[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]: we know the [[Mavolio Bent|chief Cashier]] is on $AM47 per month (pay rise to $AM65 pending).<br />
<br />
The [[Moist von Lipwig|Postmaster General]], by contrast, is paid $AM80 per month, with food, uniform, and accommodation provided gratis. As this remains his substantive job, we should assume he remains on this pay scale while on detached service at the Royal Bank.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, a general hand (unskilled labour) at [[Hobson's Livery Stable]] receives 50 pence a day - assuming a six-day week, $AM3.00 per week? <br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, [[Bill Door]]'s starting pay as a farm-hand is sixpence a day - although accommodation and food are provided gratis.<br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the Director of the Opera is on $AM40 per month. At the same time, [[Seldom Bucket]] offered to raise [[Walter Plinge]]'s pay to six, no, ''seven'' shiny dollars a month!! Walter was therefore on a monthly pay of five, or less, dollars, as general hand and unskilled worker? (This equates neatly to the 50p/ten shillings a day, earned by the unskilled labourer at Hobson's). <br />
<br />
[[Agnes Nitt|Trainee singers and dancers]] are on "very little" (described as "less than you'd get for scrubbing floors") but get board and lodging thrown in for free. However, bonus payments are given of up to five dollars per performance if there is any sort of risk of being killed on stage, or in recompense for the trauma of seeing a fellow cast member die in the line of [[Opera House|Opera]].<br />
<br />
Hired muscle: the going rate for [[Trolls|troll]] bodyguards is apparently two dollars per day plus walking-about-looking-mean money. (As [[Myria LeJean]] discovers in {{TOT}}).<br />
<br />
A senior journalist on the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] such as [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] was being paid two dollars a day, plus expenses and bonuses, by the end of {{TT}}. Sacharissa's bonuses included access to a massive wardrobe of ball gowns and her expenses included the cost of taking them in. Other journalists and staff writers were either on piece rates or a dollar a day basic. <br />
<br />
Domestic servants: When [[Tiffany Aching]], aged thirteen, leaves the Chalk to train as a witch in [[Lancre]], the cover-story used by the Witches is that she is going into domestic service as a Maid. Tiffany notes they have gone to some trouble to get the wage rates and working conditions sounding right. Tiffany is agreed to be worth, because of her prowess with cheese, four dollars a month, her own bed, one day off per week and a week's holiday at Hogswatch. The text notes that three dollars a month would be underpayment, and five dollars a month just that suspicious bit too generous. <br />
<br />
Heretofore, in {{MM}}, was paid fofty dollars a month as Cosmo Lavish's private secretary. However, as Lavish was insane, this may be atypical. An alternative picture - given that Lavish, in his "I am Vetinari" insanity, called his secretary Drumknott, suggests he is making a fetish of matching the wage Vetinari paid his secretary. <br />
<br />
A top fashion model such as [[Juliet Stollop]] ''begins'' at $AM25 for a single appearance. Glenda Sugarbean reflected that this is ''more'', for a couple of hours work, than she receives in a month as a senior cook/manager. <br />
<br />
===The super-rich===<br />
<br />
[[Samuel Vimes]] was consternated to be told that, on marrying [[Sybil Ramkin]], his net worth was $AM7,000,000 ''per year''. Can this be taken as typical for the very richest in society?<br />
<br />
(At this point another consideration to be taken into account is '''[[Creaser|taxes]]''', as [[Samuel Vimes]] is on record, in a room full of rich tax-evaders, as saying he pays his. What are the City taxes and how are they assessed?)<br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, we hear of the wranglings between the University and the Patrician as to whether the city's ''per capita'' tax applied to wizards. This tax is explicitly described as $AM200 per head, payable in four quarterly instalments of $AM50. Several problems emerge instantly when analysing this. For instance, [[Topsy Lavish]] implied that the majority of poorer people in Ankh-Morpork are on incomes of $AM150 a year or less for ''all'' expenses. (This estimate is supported in {{UA}}, when Glenda Sugarbean reflects that a pair of high-end fashion boots from [[Shatta]] cost $AM400 - Glenda notes this is about the average yearly income for a full family in her part of town). A tax of $AM200 would be impractical (and uncollectable?). Also, in a city of a million people, this implies Vetinari would have an annual taxable income of $AM200,000,000. This is hardly in-keeping with the air of a great city, fallen from grace and poverty-stricken, that he very carefully projects when asked for money. This also places a very optimistic gloss on the willingness of AM citizens to pay tax! (Reference Carrot's patient memory-jogging session with the Dwarf bakers in {{MAA}}). Not to mention the City's ability to collect, which Vetinari concedes at the end of {{MM}} is in urgent need of review.<br />
<br />
One would suspect that a City poll tax exists, but is very carefully gradated to reflect ability to pay - i.e., an institution such as the University, perceived to be rich, pays more for its fully graduated wizards than, say, for non-teaching staff or students. It may even be charged with collecting this on behalf of the City and handing over an agreed lump sum (the text of {{RM}} implies this). In which case other informal "honesty-box" arrangements may exist with other Guilds and institutions.<br />
<br />
==The "general headings" for most peoples' expenditure, post-tax and deductions== <br />
<br />
<br />
===Rent and accommodation===<br />
(including "utilities" - cost of staying warm and lit indoors). Generally rent - not much of a mortgage market in A-M? <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, Mrs [[Spent]] offers [[Ossie Brunt]]'s old room at $AM2 per week: this is for an almost unfurnished room that only has a ramshackle bed in it. Oh, and a broken window.<br />
<br />
In {{GP}}, the three members of [[the Smoking Gnu]] "rent" accommodation at the [[Post Office]] for $AM3.00 per week. As this was to provide [[Tolliver Groat]] and [[Stanley Howler]] with some sort of subsistence income in lieu of pay they were not receiving, the assumption could be that Groat, a man who had to be worldly-wise in this respect, was charging the going rate plus some "silence money" on top, as he sensed the Gnu were not completely legitimate.<br />
<br />
In {{NW}}, [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] negotiates a rate of five dollars per month with full board for a room at [[John Lawn]]'s. Although part of this could have been nuisance money.<br />
<br />
===Real Estate===<br />
In {{M!!!}}, it is revealed that the value of the [[Opera House]] when last up for sale was $AM30,000 for the whole building and the business. although Mr [[Salzella]] lets slip to [[Seldom Bucket]] that the previous owner was so keen to sell that he would have been happy with $AM25,000.<br />
<br />
===Food and drink===<br />
How do people eat? We've already done a comparison on the cost of a takeaway and found it costs roughly the same proportion of daily pay in Ankh-Morpork as in Manchester. But food bought in and cooked at home?<br />
<br />
We know one [[elim]] will buy one very small potato. So a full penny - sixteen elims - might buy enough potatoes for a meal for one, perhaps two? (Assuming "small potato" might equate to "Jersey New" - ie, about half the size of a golf ball, at their biggest).<br />
<br />
In {{T5E}}, we discover the cost of a plucked and prepared chicken ready for cooking is $AM1 in the city. This fits, as historically chicken has always been something of a luxury meat: it's only in the last thirty years or so that poultry prices have dropped to the extent that it has become an everyday commonplace. (Comedian Spike Milligan recalls that in the 1930's, Christmas dinner was the rare treat of chicken. His family couldn't afford turkey and most weeks of the year they couldn't even afford chicken). A chicken would have been kept for the ongoing resource it provided in the form of eggs, and it would only have gone into the pot right at the very end of its life.<br />
<br />
Out in the countryside, the availability of chicken increases, while transportation costs decline, so prices drop to 10 pence per bird. <br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, an unspecified weight of butchered rat fillets costs two pence. This must be a substantial weight, as the blood content is more than ample to satiate the primal urge of a vampire on the brink of renouncing Temperance. As rat is a relatively cheap meat, (and as far as we know eaten only by Dwarfs) would other available meatstuffs take their price cue from the "rat standard"? <br />
<br />
It's interesting that the going rate for unbutchered fresh rat carcasses is three for two pence (from the litany of grumbles made by Wee Mad Arthur, rat-catcher) and prime fillets taken from choice areas sell for as much as an entire carcass. <br />
<br />
In {{FOC}}, we can infer the cost of Ecstatic-One-Hundred-And-Fifty-Minutes (getting the whole of a packed Drum incapably drunk up to and including sale of pints of gin) was $AM25, less three pence in change. <br />
<br />
According to the [[goblin]] Regret of the Falling Leaf, one can purchase a Special Reserve Cognac from [[Quirm]] for AM$60 from [[Horrids]] on [[Broadway]], although there is a two-for-one deal at the Twister Boote's bottle shop in [[The Shades|the Shades]]- although the latter does have a slight taste of anchovy. This is surprisingly expensive, especially by Shades standards, but it is to be presumed that anything foreign is worth the extra money.<br />
<br />
Also from {{FOC}}, there is the throwaway line that a dollar buys a loaf of bread - this is ridiculously expensive for a staple foodstuff. Perhaps this is a case of TP pulling a figure out of the air to illustrate a point about relative affluence - ie, gnomes and pictsies can earn as much as a human, but require far less in the way of food and in any case can make a home from a hollowed out stale loaf (of dwarf bread? Must be like a prefab made out of breezeblock). Maybe TP did the same not as actual cost but as illustration of the principle involved when defining the Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of economic inequality - in this, the cost of a pair of boots is also pitched unfeasibly high, as has been noted.<br />
<br />
===Clothing===<br />
Historically, clothing was ''always'' more expensive in previous centuries, viewed as a higher proportion of one's weekly income. The individual would own less clothes but pay more for them. <br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the cost of a bespoke, haute couture, ballgown is given as $AM 300-500. This is hardly representative: in {{TT}}, [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] considered $AM40 would be the price for a dress you wear at a ball given by [[Selachii|Lady Selachii]] and she couldn't afford that kind of money. On the other hand, [[William de Worde|William de Worde's]] sister would be shocked to find anyone could spend as little as forty dollars for a dress. Similarly, the disgusting and loathsome [[Crispin Horsefry]], surely the Disc's first proto-Yuppie, spends $AM100 ''on a single shirt'' - because he ''can'', not because the shirt is in any justifiable sense worth $100. A pair of ''really expensive'' fashion boots for Dwarfs costs $AM400 from [[Shatta]]. <br />
<br />
In {{M}}, we meet the landlord of [[The Quene's Head/Duke's Head]], and discover that he is considered affluent because he owns two shirts (one green, one yellow). <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, we learn of the [[Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice]]: a ''really'' good pair of boots might be bought for $AM50. However, on a watchman's pay, even an officer's, he might struggle to get a "cheap" pair for $AM10....<br />
<br />
The cost of a new gentleman's suit, with a spare pair of trousers possibly thrown in, is quoted in the early pages of {{RM}} as being $7. (As Ridcully points out, though, this is on the cheap side). <br />
<br />
But then, there's always the [[Soon Shine Sun|Shonky Shop]], for items of clothing that look nostalgically back on the days when they were merely second-hand...<br />
<br />
====Underwear====<br />
[[Lu-Tze]], in {{TOT}}, informs us that Mrs.[[Marietta Cosmopilite]], in accordance with the ''koan'' ''"Wrap up warm, or you'll catch your death"'', will do bespoke long johns, described as ''double-knit combinations, silk on the inside, then three layers of wool, with two handy trapdoors'' for $AM6 a pair, as he's an old and valued customer. However, she apparently can't turn a heel worth a damn. No prices are yet quoted for the products constructed for ladies who need to watch their figures, those who are perhaps more pint glass than hourglass, by [[Burleigh and Spoke]].<br />
<br />
===Necessary bills===<br />
No state schools - therefore school fees for all children. <br />
*''Contingencies'': I'm assuming there is neither an NHS nor a welfare state in Ankh-Morpork. This heading might cover doctors' bills/general medical, dental (such as it is)<br />
<br />
Some occupations, such as Watchman, come with free medical care, in the form of an [[Igor]], and occasional recourse to Dr. [[John Lawn|Lawn]] where this is needed. Assassins have a retained [[Doctor]] at their [[Assassins' Guild|Guild]], but Assassination is an occupation that might be considered that of a self-employed professional, or providing a pocket-money second income to a gentleman who is already well provided for and would be expected to meet his own medical expenses privately. <br />
<br />
A comment in {{FOC}} suggests the cost of even an unsuccessful consultation with a doctor is AM$30.00, but this is a month's pay to many people and seems excessive. Indeed, in {{NW}}, John Lawn charges [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] AM$6.00 for resetting and plastering the broken arm of an injured [[Cable Street Particulars|Unmentionable]]. It is hinted that this is an inflated fee, dependent on: (i) it being the middle of the night; (ii) the patient being a Cable Street Particular, who Mossy despises for professional reasons; (iii) this being all the money the man had on him when searched. Mossy's actual usual fee might have been far lower. <br />
<br />
Like officers in certain upscale Army regiments, who are expected to be gentlemen of independent means, the official pay would just be small change and very few would rely on this alone for some sort of a living income. This last point is borne out in {{MR}}, where it has been calculated that the official salary of a very junior officer (in the Borogravian Army at least) is approximately seven AM shillings per day (subject to rates of exhange and the fact that the Borogravian currency is considered to be "fiat money" by the rest of the Disc's banking experts). This is a pay of AM$28-30 per month - on a par with an Ankhian Watchman, and surely not something an officer and a gentleman should be expected to live on alone! <br />
<br />
(''Economics Note: "Fiat Money"'':- Money whose declared value is unsupported by the usual sort of economic indicators, ie high GDP, balance of payment surplus, gold and currency reserves, desirable export goods. For instance, the old Soviet Union unilaterally declared the exchange rate of the rouble to the dollar was 1:1, where had the Soviet currency been allowed to find its own worth on the capitalist money markets, the true exchange rate might have been 60:1. By decree - '''''fiat''''' - , the Soviets artificially inflated the worth of their currency sixty-fold, but could only really enforce this where the Russian writ ran - the Warsaw Pact states, North Korea, Cuba, and any luckless visitors to the USSR who had to exchange at the official rate. When you know what you're looking for, Borogravian money in {{MR}} is a fiat currency - worth its face value only where this can be enforced, and because the Duchess has decreed it to be so. Fiat currencies are usually the last brute-force method of maintaining some sort of economic stability and staving off final collapse when all else has failed, or an economy has been fatally wounded by internal collapse, prolonged war, or consistently faulty economic assumptions. Regard modern Zimbabwe, inter-war Germany, or Nazi Germany in the last couple of years of WW2, having unaccountably made all its neighbours into implacable enemies and needing to pay the fabulous costs of total war.) <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, the cost of a month's education at the Spiteful Sisters of [[Seven-Handed Sek]] Charity School is given as $AM2.00. Therefore yearly fees at a typical school - i.e., one accessible to ordinary people &ndash; might be no more than $AM24 per year.<br />
<br />
===Entertainment===<br />
What do you do with your free time?<br />
<br />
A box at the opera is $AM50 per performance, but the stalls will be cheaper. <br />
<br />
In {{MM}} the [[Mavolio Bent|Chief Cashier]] says that a penny can buy you a seat at the theatre for a hour. It is unknown what theatre he means, or whether he's just being poetic.<br />
<br />
Entry to the [[Odium]] to watch {{MP}} cost 5p, later increased to 10p. On a par with the music hall?<br />
<br />
A [[Twopenny Upright]] is slang for a very basic service from a Seamstress, although it is very likely that while the term remains in current slang, the basic service costs a little bit more than that. Perhaps a broad-minded researcher could locate a price list?<br />
<br />
Mrs [[Evadne Cake]] provides two levels of mediumistic intercession with the future and the next world. Tenpence buys you what she sees. Ten dollars pays for what actually happens.<br />
<br />
===Savings?=== <br />
Or would saving in a "funeral club" count as a deduction prior to receiving bulk residue of pay? <br />
<br />
We now know from {{MM}} that the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] offers interest on small bank accounts, which must over time add to sources of income for account-holders. <br />
<br />
===[[Public transportation|Travel]]===<br />
<br />
A cab fare from the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Elm Street]] is eleven pence. ({{MM}}) It is informally expected a horse cab driver be tipped no less than 10%. ({{CAM}}) <br />
<br />
The coach fare from [[Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Lancre]] is $AM50 ($AM40 is a [[Bandits' Guild]] surcharge). ({{LL}})<br />
<br />
And now, of course, there are the horse omnibuses, the troll cars from {{UA}}, and golem horses from {{SN}} to price into the picture!<br />
<br />
A wider picture is provided in {{CAM}}: the short route from Sator Square to Dolly Sisters is charged at 2p. It is not unreasonable to suggest multiples of 2p are charged for progressively longer distances. <br />
<br />
The night bus from Ankh-Morpork to Sto Lat charges a single fare of two dollars fifty pence.<br />
<br />
Troll taxis (effectively a sedan chair attached to the back of a troll) are charged at approximately double the cost of a bus journey over a comparable distance, although fares into the Shades are surcharged because of the graffiti problem. {{CAM}}<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
<br />
We learn from the [[Yeti|yeti]]-hunters in {{TOT}} that the feet alone of a Yeti can be resold, for certain Agatean medical preparations, for $AM1,000. The pelt is worth an additional $AM900.<br />
<br />
The accepted salary threshold, below which a person is deemed too impecunious to be able to afford the sort of personalised, indeed bespoke, service, offered by the [[Assassins' Guild]], is $AM10,000. Those earning below this yearly income may sometimes come to the notice of the Guild, but many assassins won't bother getting out of bed for small change of this nature. They are certainly thought of as only just being able to afford the Guild's services, if their income is at, or only just exceeds, this level.<br />
<br />
In fairness, the cheapest inhumation on the Guild books is the contract out on Corporal [[Nobby Nobbs]] of the Watch. Including the mandatory 50% Guild Tax, this stands at $AM1.00. (This is only nominal, as no self-respecting Assassin would work for so little, especially if it involves a high risk of being shouted at by Sam Vimes.)<br />
<br />
Lord [[de Worde]] believed that anyone earning less than $1,000 per year was by inference a member of the criminal classes. <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, the cost of a [[Dis-organiser]], being as it is the product of advanced technomancy, is $300.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, Otto Chriek expresses a desire for the top-of-the-range Agatean "Akina" iconograph, which has the equivalent of an SLR lens (the demon has a telescopic seat allowing him to get right up close for ''really'' fine detail), together with other buzzers and flashing lights. This is $AM180.<br />
<br />
A bag of fertile soil from one of [[Harry King|Harry Kings]] compost heaps is 10p; but you have to bring your own bag. More ''specialised'' waste from the [[Menagerie]] is priced correspondingly higher: but there's nothing like lion or leopard dung scattered in your flower beds to ward off lesser animals, who can deduce from the presence of lion dung that a lion is nearby and they'd better not hang around to contribute to the next lot. <br />
<br />
The perfume from [[Quirm]], Cedar Fragrance Pour Hommes, is available for AM$15 a pop.<br />
<br />
==Information to be added==<br />
<br />
We should diligently extract examples of given wages and costs from the books, list them under expenditure and income, and see if they stack up.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:02, 7 November 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
[[Category: Discworld culture]]<br />
[[de:Ankh-Morpork Dollar]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Cost_of_Living_in_Ankh-Morpork&diff=28882Cost of Living in Ankh-Morpork2018-01-26T21:02:20Z<p>AgProv: /* Real Estate */</p>
<hr />
<div>This is an article that began in the "discussion" pages of the [[Curry Gardens]] entry, which attempts to piece together what the everyday costs of living are for a typical [[Ankh-Morpork]] citizen. It's just got to be too big for its original page and has spilled over into areas which are not, strictly speaking, to do with spicy [[Klatch]]ian foodstuffs or the purveyors thereof.<br />
<br />
This is a honest attempt to analyze the everyday economics of the Discworld and to assess how well it all fits together, using wages and costs quoted in the books. My intuition is that it will all come together, with a bit of tweaking, in surprising ways that TP never consciously intended when he thought he was plucking figures out of the air to add background detail to the life of the city. Consider the first section, based on the given costs of a curry at the Curry Gardens, compared to the known take-home pay of a lance-constable in the Watch, using Roundworld equivalent costings as an analogue. It all fitted, spookily well..<br />
<br />
<br />
If the starting salary for a Watchman is $30 a month, we can assume this is a dollar a day.<br />
<br />
Somebody on a £200 a week takehome pay in Britain is effectively earning £40 a day. (Let's assume £40 sterling equals $AM1)<br />
<br />
A curry and rice meal from my local takeaway is around £5. This equates to the 10-15 AM pence quoted in the text. <br />
<br />
£5 = 12.5% of that £40 daily pay.<br />
<br />
The "mean" value between 10p (unnamed meat curry) and 15p (curry with named meat) is 12.5 pence. <br />
<br />
So the watchman going to the Curry Gardens for a takeaway at the end of a shift is also paying, on average, 12.5% of his daily pay on that basic curry and rice meal... (unless he's [[Fred Colon]] and scrounging it for free}<br />
<br />
I wonder how far other comparisons of this sort would work out? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:31, 12 June 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Hmm, as the new book {{MM}} deals with the finance and economics of [[Ankh-Morpork]], it might be interesting to expand this discussion on the everyday economics of life in A-M and see if it all fits together. I suspect it will, in some surprising ways that TP never consciously intended. Look at the way the [[Book:The Discworld Mapp|Mappe]] of A-M came together without any need to rewrite the books, as if on some level somebody had already drawn it, and it just needed to be pulled off a shelf in the Reference section of [[L-space]]...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:19, 28 September 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Pay Rates==<br />
<br />
''What do various levels of occupation attract by means of remuneration?''<br />
<br />
Watch Lance-constable: $AM30 per month (prior to deductions and claimable expenses).<br />
<br />
A "sliding scale" applies for higher ranks:- <br />
$AM40 for a Sergeant<br />
$AM50+ for officers.<br />
<br />
[[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]: we know the [[Mavolio Bent|chief Cashier]] is on $AM47 per month (pay rise to $AM65 pending).<br />
<br />
The [[Moist von Lipwig|Postmaster General]], by contrast, is paid $AM80 per month, with food, uniform, and accommodation provided gratis. As this remains his substantive job, we should assume he remains on this pay scale while on detached service at the Royal Bank.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, a general hand (unskilled labour) at [[Hobson's Livery Stable]] receives 50 pence a day - assuming a six-day week, $AM3.00 per week? <br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, [[Bill Door]]'s starting pay as a farm-hand is sixpence a day - although accommodation and food are provided gratis.<br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the Director of the Opera is on $AM40 per month. At the same time, [[Seldom Bucket]] offered to raise [[Walter Plinge]]'s pay to six, no, ''seven'' shiny dollars a month!! Walter was therefore on a monthly pay of five, or less, dollars, as general hand and unskilled worker? (This equates neatly to the 50p/ten shillings a day, earned by the unskilled labourer at Hobson's). <br />
<br />
[[Agnes Nitt|Trainee singers and dancers]] are on "very little" (described as "less than you'd get for scrubbing floors") but get board and lodging thrown in for free. However, bonus payments are given of up to five dollars per performance if there is any sort of risk of being killed on stage, or in recompense for the trauma of seeing a fellow cast member die in the line of [[Opera House|Opera]].<br />
<br />
Hired muscle: the going rate for [[Trolls|troll]] bodyguards is apparently two dollars per day plus walking-about-looking-mean money. (As [[Myria LeJean]] discovers in {{TOT}}).<br />
<br />
A senior journalist on the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] such as [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] was being paid two dollars a day, plus expenses and bonuses, by the end of {{TT}}. Sacharissa's bonuses included access to a massive wardrobe of ball gowns and her expenses included the cost of taking them in. Other journalists and staff writers were either on piece rates or a dollar a day basic. <br />
<br />
Domestic servants: When [[Tiffany Aching]], aged thirteen, leaves the Chalk to train as a witch in [[Lancre]], the cover-story used by the Witches is that she is going into domestic service as a Maid. Tiffany notes they have gone to some trouble to get the wage rates and working conditions sounding right. Tiffany is agreed to be worth, because of her prowess with cheese, four dollars a month, her own bed, one day off per week and a week's holiday at Hogswatch. The text notes that three dollars a month would be underpayment, and five dollars a month just that suspicious bit too generous. <br />
<br />
Heretofore, in {{MM}}, was paid fofty dollars a month as Cosmo Lavish's private secretary. However, as Lavish was insane, this may be atypical. An alternative picture - given that Lavish, in his "I am Vetinari" insanity, called his secretary Drumknott, suggests he is making a fetish of matching the wage Vetinari paid his secretary. <br />
<br />
A top fashion model such as [[Juliet Stollop]] ''begins'' at $AM25 for a single appearance. Glenda Sugarbean reflected that this is ''more'', for a couple of hours work, than she receives in a month as a senior cook/manager. <br />
<br />
===The super-rich===<br />
<br />
[[Samuel Vimes]] was consternated to be told that, on marrying [[Sybil Ramkin]], his net worth was $AM7,000,000 ''per year''. Can this be taken as typical for the very richest in society?<br />
<br />
(At this point another consideration to be taken into account is '''[[Creaser|taxes]]''', as [[Samuel Vimes]] is on record, in a room full of rich tax-evaders, as saying he pays his. What are the City taxes and how are they assessed?)<br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, we hear of the wranglings between the University and the Patrician as to whether the city's ''per capita'' tax applied to wizards. This tax is explicitly described as $AM200 per head, payable in four quarterly instalments of $AM50. Several problems emerge instantly when analysing this. For instance, [[Topsy Lavish]] implied that the majority of poorer people in Ankh-Morpork are on incomes of $AM150 a year or less for ''all'' expenses. (This estimate is supported in {{UA}}, when Glenda Sugarbean reflects that a pair of high-end fashion boots from [[Shatta]] cost $AM400 - Glenda notes this is about the average yearly income for a full family in her part of town). A tax of $AM200 would be impractical (and uncollectable?). Also, in a city of a million people, this implies Vetinari would have an annual taxable income of $AM200,000,000. This is hardly in-keeping with the air of a great city, fallen from grace and poverty-stricken, that he very carefully projects when asked for money. This also places a very optimistic gloss on the willingness of AM citizens to pay tax! (Reference Carrot's patient memory-jogging session with the Dwarf bakers in {{MAA}}). Not to mention the City's ability to collect, which Vetinari concedes at the end of {{MM}} is in urgent need of review.<br />
<br />
One would suspect that a City poll tax exists, but is very carefully gradated to reflect ability to pay - i.e., an institution such as the University, perceived to be rich, pays more for its fully graduated wizards than, say, for non-teaching staff or students. It may even be charged with collecting this on behalf of the City and handing over an agreed lump sum (the text of {{RM}} implies this). In which case other informal "honesty-box" arrangements may exist with other Guilds and institutions.<br />
<br />
==The "general headings" for most peoples' expenditure, post-tax and deductions== <br />
<br />
<br />
===Rent and accommodation===<br />
(including "utilities" - cost of staying warm and lit indoors). Generally rent - not much of a mortgage market in A-M? <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, Mrs [[Spent]] offers [[Ossie Brunt]]'s old room at $AM2 per week: this is for an almost unfurnished room that only has a ramshackle bed in it. Oh, and a broken window.<br />
<br />
In {{GP}}, the three members of [[the Smoking Gnu]] "rent" accommodation at the [[Post Office]] for $AM3.00 per week. As this was to provide [[Tolliver Groat]] and [[Stanley Howler]] with some sort of subsistence income in lieu of pay they were not receiving, the assumption could be that Groat, a man who had to be worldly-wise in this respect, was charging the going rate plus some "silence money" on top, as he sensed the Gnu were not completely legitimate.<br />
<br />
In {{NW}}, [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] negotiates a rate of five dollars per month with full board for a room at [[John Lawn]]'s. Although part of this could have been nuisance money.<br />
<br />
===Real Estate===<br />
In {{M!}}, it is revealed that the value of the [[Opera House]] when last up for sale was $AM30,000 for the whole building and the business. although Mr [[Salzella]] lets slip to [[Seldom Bucket]] that the previous owner was so keen to sell that he would have been happy with $AM25,000.<br />
<br />
===Food and drink===<br />
How do people eat? We've already done a comparison on the cost of a takeaway and found it costs roughly the same proportion of daily pay in Ankh-Morpork as in Manchester. But food bought in and cooked at home?<br />
<br />
We know one [[elim]] will buy one very small potato. So a full penny - sixteen elims - might buy enough potatoes for a meal for one, perhaps two? (Assuming "small potato" might equate to "Jersey New" - ie, about half the size of a golf ball, at their biggest).<br />
<br />
In {{T5E}}, we discover the cost of a plucked and prepared chicken ready for cooking is $AM1 in the city. This fits, as historically chicken has always been something of a luxury meat: it's only in the last thirty years or so that poultry prices have dropped to the extent that it has become an everyday commonplace. (Comedian Spike Milligan recalls that in the 1930's, Christmas dinner was the rare treat of chicken. His family couldn't afford turkey and most weeks of the year they couldn't even afford chicken). A chicken would have been kept for the ongoing resource it provided in the form of eggs, and it would only have gone into the pot right at the very end of its life.<br />
<br />
Out in the countryside, the availability of chicken increases, while transportation costs decline, so prices drop to 10 pence per bird. <br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, an unspecified weight of butchered rat fillets costs two pence. This must be a substantial weight, as the blood content is more than ample to satiate the primal urge of a vampire on the brink of renouncing Temperance. As rat is a relatively cheap meat, (and as far as we know eaten only by Dwarfs) would other available meatstuffs take their price cue from the "rat standard"? <br />
<br />
It's interesting that the going rate for unbutchered fresh rat carcasses is three for two pence (from the litany of grumbles made by Wee Mad Arthur, rat-catcher) and prime fillets taken from choice areas sell for as much as an entire carcass. <br />
<br />
In {{FOC}}, we can infer the cost of Ecstatic-One-Hundred-And-Fifty-Minutes (getting the whole of a packed Drum incapably drunk up to and including sale of pints of gin) was $AM25, less three pence in change. <br />
<br />
According to the [[goblin]] Regret of the Falling Leaf, one can purchase a Special Reserve Cognac from [[Quirm]] for AM$60 from [[Horrids]] on [[Broadway]], although there is a two-for-one deal at the Twister Boote's bottle shop in [[The Shades|the Shades]]- although the latter does have a slight taste of anchovy. This is surprisingly expensive, especially by Shades standards, but it is to be presumed that anything foreign is worth the extra money.<br />
<br />
Also from {{FOC}}, there is the throwaway line that a dollar buys a loaf of bread - this is ridiculously expensive for a staple foodstuff. Perhaps this is a case of TP pulling a figure out of the air to illustrate a point about relative affluence - ie, gnomes and pictsies can earn as much as a human, but require far less in the way of food and in any case can make a home from a hollowed out stale loaf (of dwarf bread? Must be like a prefab made out of breezeblock). Maybe TP did the same not as actual cost but as illustration of the principle involved when defining the Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of economic inequality - in this, the cost of a pair of boots is also pitched unfeasibly high, as has been noted.<br />
<br />
===Clothing===<br />
Historically, clothing was ''always'' more expensive in previous centuries, viewed as a higher proportion of one's weekly income. The individual would own less clothes but pay more for them. <br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the cost of a bespoke, haute couture, ballgown is given as $AM 300-500. This is hardly representative: in {{TT}}, [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] considered $AM40 would be the price for a dress you wear at a ball given by [[Selachii|Lady Selachii]] and she couldn't afford that kind of money. On the other hand, [[William de Worde|William de Worde's]] sister would be shocked to find anyone could spend as little as forty dollars for a dress. Similarly, the disgusting and loathsome [[Crispin Horsefry]], surely the Disc's first proto-Yuppie, spends $AM100 ''on a single shirt'' - because he ''can'', not because the shirt is in any justifiable sense worth $100. A pair of ''really expensive'' fashion boots for Dwarfs costs $AM400 from [[Shatta]]. <br />
<br />
In {{M}}, we meet the landlord of [[The Quene's Head/Duke's Head]], and discover that he is considered affluent because he owns two shirts (one green, one yellow). <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, we learn of the [[Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice]]: a ''really'' good pair of boots might be bought for $AM50. However, on a watchman's pay, even an officer's, he might struggle to get a "cheap" pair for $AM10....<br />
<br />
The cost of a new gentleman's suit, with a spare pair of trousers possibly thrown in, is quoted in the early pages of {{RM}} as being $7. (As Ridcully points out, though, this is on the cheap side). <br />
<br />
But then, there's always the [[Soon Shine Sun|Shonky Shop]], for items of clothing that look nostalgically back on the days when they were merely second-hand...<br />
<br />
====Underwear====<br />
[[Lu-Tze]], in {{TOT}}, informs us that Mrs.[[Marietta Cosmopilite]], in accordance with the ''koan'' ''"Wrap up warm, or you'll catch your death"'', will do bespoke long johns, described as ''double-knit combinations, silk on the inside, then three layers of wool, with two handy trapdoors'' for $AM6 a pair, as he's an old and valued customer. However, she apparently can't turn a heel worth a damn. No prices are yet quoted for the products constructed for ladies who need to watch their figures, those who are perhaps more pint glass than hourglass, by [[Burleigh and Spoke]].<br />
<br />
===Necessary bills===<br />
No state schools - therefore school fees for all children. <br />
*''Contingencies'': I'm assuming there is neither an NHS nor a welfare state in Ankh-Morpork. This heading might cover doctors' bills/general medical, dental (such as it is)<br />
<br />
Some occupations, such as Watchman, come with free medical care, in the form of an [[Igor]], and occasional recourse to Dr. [[John Lawn|Lawn]] where this is needed. Assassins have a retained [[Doctor]] at their [[Assassins' Guild|Guild]], but Assassination is an occupation that might be considered that of a self-employed professional, or providing a pocket-money second income to a gentleman who is already well provided for and would be expected to meet his own medical expenses privately. <br />
<br />
A comment in {{FOC}} suggests the cost of even an unsuccessful consultation with a doctor is AM$30.00, but this is a month's pay to many people and seems excessive. Indeed, in {{NW}}, John Lawn charges [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] AM$6.00 for resetting and plastering the broken arm of an injured [[Cable Street Particulars|Unmentionable]]. It is hinted that this is an inflated fee, dependent on: (i) it being the middle of the night; (ii) the patient being a Cable Street Particular, who Mossy despises for professional reasons; (iii) this being all the money the man had on him when searched. Mossy's actual usual fee might have been far lower. <br />
<br />
Like officers in certain upscale Army regiments, who are expected to be gentlemen of independent means, the official pay would just be small change and very few would rely on this alone for some sort of a living income. This last point is borne out in {{MR}}, where it has been calculated that the official salary of a very junior officer (in the Borogravian Army at least) is approximately seven AM shillings per day (subject to rates of exhange and the fact that the Borogravian currency is considered to be "fiat money" by the rest of the Disc's banking experts). This is a pay of AM$28-30 per month - on a par with an Ankhian Watchman, and surely not something an officer and a gentleman should be expected to live on alone! <br />
<br />
(''Economics Note: "Fiat Money"'':- Money whose declared value is unsupported by the usual sort of economic indicators, ie high GDP, balance of payment surplus, gold and currency reserves, desirable export goods. For instance, the old Soviet Union unilaterally declared the exchange rate of the rouble to the dollar was 1:1, where had the Soviet currency been allowed to find its own worth on the capitalist money markets, the true exchange rate might have been 60:1. By decree - '''''fiat''''' - , the Soviets artificially inflated the worth of their currency sixty-fold, but could only really enforce this where the Russian writ ran - the Warsaw Pact states, North Korea, Cuba, and any luckless visitors to the USSR who had to exchange at the official rate. When you know what you're looking for, Borogravian money in {{MR}} is a fiat currency - worth its face value only where this can be enforced, and because the Duchess has decreed it to be so. Fiat currencies are usually the last brute-force method of maintaining some sort of economic stability and staving off final collapse when all else has failed, or an economy has been fatally wounded by internal collapse, prolonged war, or consistently faulty economic assumptions. Regard modern Zimbabwe, inter-war Germany, or Nazi Germany in the last couple of years of WW2, having unaccountably made all its neighbours into implacable enemies and needing to pay the fabulous costs of total war.) <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, the cost of a month's education at the Spiteful Sisters of [[Seven-Handed Sek]] Charity School is given as $AM2.00. Therefore yearly fees at a typical school - i.e., one accessible to ordinary people &ndash; might be no more than $AM24 per year.<br />
<br />
===Entertainment===<br />
What do you do with your free time?<br />
<br />
A box at the opera is $AM50 per performance, but the stalls will be cheaper. <br />
<br />
In {{MM}} the [[Mavolio Bent|Chief Cashier]] says that a penny can buy you a seat at the theatre for a hour. It is unknown what theatre he means, or whether he's just being poetic.<br />
<br />
Entry to the [[Odium]] to watch {{MP}} cost 5p, later increased to 10p. On a par with the music hall?<br />
<br />
A [[Twopenny Upright]] is slang for a very basic service from a Seamstress, although it is very likely that while the term remains in current slang, the basic service costs a little bit more than that. Perhaps a broad-minded researcher could locate a price list?<br />
<br />
Mrs [[Evadne Cake]] provides two levels of mediumistic intercession with the future and the next world. Tenpence buys you what she sees. Ten dollars pays for what actually happens.<br />
<br />
===Savings?=== <br />
Or would saving in a "funeral club" count as a deduction prior to receiving bulk residue of pay? <br />
<br />
We now know from {{MM}} that the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] offers interest on small bank accounts, which must over time add to sources of income for account-holders. <br />
<br />
===[[Public transportation|Travel]]===<br />
<br />
A cab fare from the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Elm Street]] is eleven pence. ({{MM}}) It is informally expected a horse cab driver be tipped no less than 10%. ({{CAM}}) <br />
<br />
The coach fare from [[Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Lancre]] is $AM50 ($AM40 is a [[Bandits' Guild]] surcharge). ({{LL}})<br />
<br />
And now, of course, there are the horse omnibuses, the troll cars from {{UA}}, and golem horses from {{SN}} to price into the picture!<br />
<br />
A wider picture is provided in {{CAM}}: the short route from Sator Square to Dolly Sisters is charged at 2p. It is not unreasonable to suggest multiples of 2p are charged for progressively longer distances. <br />
<br />
The night bus from Ankh-Morpork to Sto Lat charges a single fare of two dollars fifty pence.<br />
<br />
Troll taxis (effectively a sedan chair attached to the back of a troll) are charged at approximately double the cost of a bus journey over a comparable distance, although fares into the Shades are surcharged because of the graffiti problem. {{CAM}}<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
<br />
We learn from the [[Yeti|yeti]]-hunters in {{TOT}} that the feet alone of a Yeti can be resold, for certain Agatean medical preparations, for $AM1,000. The pelt is worth an additional $AM900.<br />
<br />
The accepted salary threshold, below which a person is deemed too impecunious to be able to afford the sort of personalised, indeed bespoke, service, offered by the [[Assassins' Guild]], is $AM10,000. Those earning below this yearly income may sometimes come to the notice of the Guild, but many assassins won't bother getting out of bed for small change of this nature. They are certainly thought of as only just being able to afford the Guild's services, if their income is at, or only just exceeds, this level.<br />
<br />
In fairness, the cheapest inhumation on the Guild books is the contract out on Corporal [[Nobby Nobbs]] of the Watch. Including the mandatory 50% Guild Tax, this stands at $AM1.00. (This is only nominal, as no self-respecting Assassin would work for so little, especially if it involves a high risk of being shouted at by Sam Vimes.)<br />
<br />
Lord [[de Worde]] believed that anyone earning less than $1,000 per year was by inference a member of the criminal classes. <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, the cost of a [[Dis-organiser]], being as it is the product of advanced technomancy, is $300.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, Otto Chriek expresses a desire for the top-of-the-range Agatean "Akina" iconograph, which has the equivalent of an SLR lens (the demon has a telescopic seat allowing him to get right up close for ''really'' fine detail), together with other buzzers and flashing lights. This is $AM180.<br />
<br />
A bag of fertile soil from one of [[Harry King|Harry Kings]] compost heaps is 10p; but you have to bring your own bag. More ''specialised'' waste from the [[Menagerie]] is priced correspondingly higher: but there's nothing like lion or leopard dung scattered in your flower beds to ward off lesser animals, who can deduce from the presence of lion dung that a lion is nearby and they'd better not hang around to contribute to the next lot. <br />
<br />
The perfume from [[Quirm]], Cedar Fragrance Pour Hommes, is available for AM$15 a pop.<br />
<br />
==Information to be added==<br />
<br />
We should diligently extract examples of given wages and costs from the books, list them under expenditure and income, and see if they stack up.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:02, 7 November 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
[[Category: Discworld culture]]<br />
[[de:Ankh-Morpork Dollar]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Cost_of_Living_in_Ankh-Morpork&diff=28881Cost of Living in Ankh-Morpork2018-01-26T21:01:52Z<p>AgProv: Property values</p>
<hr />
<div>This is an article that began in the "discussion" pages of the [[Curry Gardens]] entry, which attempts to piece together what the everyday costs of living are for a typical [[Ankh-Morpork]] citizen. It's just got to be too big for its original page and has spilled over into areas which are not, strictly speaking, to do with spicy [[Klatch]]ian foodstuffs or the purveyors thereof.<br />
<br />
This is a honest attempt to analyze the everyday economics of the Discworld and to assess how well it all fits together, using wages and costs quoted in the books. My intuition is that it will all come together, with a bit of tweaking, in surprising ways that TP never consciously intended when he thought he was plucking figures out of the air to add background detail to the life of the city. Consider the first section, based on the given costs of a curry at the Curry Gardens, compared to the known take-home pay of a lance-constable in the Watch, using Roundworld equivalent costings as an analogue. It all fitted, spookily well..<br />
<br />
<br />
If the starting salary for a Watchman is $30 a month, we can assume this is a dollar a day.<br />
<br />
Somebody on a £200 a week takehome pay in Britain is effectively earning £40 a day. (Let's assume £40 sterling equals $AM1)<br />
<br />
A curry and rice meal from my local takeaway is around £5. This equates to the 10-15 AM pence quoted in the text. <br />
<br />
£5 = 12.5% of that £40 daily pay.<br />
<br />
The "mean" value between 10p (unnamed meat curry) and 15p (curry with named meat) is 12.5 pence. <br />
<br />
So the watchman going to the Curry Gardens for a takeaway at the end of a shift is also paying, on average, 12.5% of his daily pay on that basic curry and rice meal... (unless he's [[Fred Colon]] and scrounging it for free}<br />
<br />
I wonder how far other comparisons of this sort would work out? --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 21:31, 12 June 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Hmm, as the new book {{MM}} deals with the finance and economics of [[Ankh-Morpork]], it might be interesting to expand this discussion on the everyday economics of life in A-M and see if it all fits together. I suspect it will, in some surprising ways that TP never consciously intended. Look at the way the [[Book:The Discworld Mapp|Mappe]] of A-M came together without any need to rewrite the books, as if on some level somebody had already drawn it, and it just needed to be pulled off a shelf in the Reference section of [[L-space]]...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:19, 28 September 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Pay Rates==<br />
<br />
''What do various levels of occupation attract by means of remuneration?''<br />
<br />
Watch Lance-constable: $AM30 per month (prior to deductions and claimable expenses).<br />
<br />
A "sliding scale" applies for higher ranks:- <br />
$AM40 for a Sergeant<br />
$AM50+ for officers.<br />
<br />
[[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]: we know the [[Mavolio Bent|chief Cashier]] is on $AM47 per month (pay rise to $AM65 pending).<br />
<br />
The [[Moist von Lipwig|Postmaster General]], by contrast, is paid $AM80 per month, with food, uniform, and accommodation provided gratis. As this remains his substantive job, we should assume he remains on this pay scale while on detached service at the Royal Bank.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, a general hand (unskilled labour) at [[Hobson's Livery Stable]] receives 50 pence a day - assuming a six-day week, $AM3.00 per week? <br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, [[Bill Door]]'s starting pay as a farm-hand is sixpence a day - although accommodation and food are provided gratis.<br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the Director of the Opera is on $AM40 per month. At the same time, [[Seldom Bucket]] offered to raise [[Walter Plinge]]'s pay to six, no, ''seven'' shiny dollars a month!! Walter was therefore on a monthly pay of five, or less, dollars, as general hand and unskilled worker? (This equates neatly to the 50p/ten shillings a day, earned by the unskilled labourer at Hobson's). <br />
<br />
[[Agnes Nitt|Trainee singers and dancers]] are on "very little" (described as "less than you'd get for scrubbing floors") but get board and lodging thrown in for free. However, bonus payments are given of up to five dollars per performance if there is any sort of risk of being killed on stage, or in recompense for the trauma of seeing a fellow cast member die in the line of [[Opera House|Opera]].<br />
<br />
Hired muscle: the going rate for [[Trolls|troll]] bodyguards is apparently two dollars per day plus walking-about-looking-mean money. (As [[Myria LeJean]] discovers in {{TOT}}).<br />
<br />
A senior journalist on the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] such as [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] was being paid two dollars a day, plus expenses and bonuses, by the end of {{TT}}. Sacharissa's bonuses included access to a massive wardrobe of ball gowns and her expenses included the cost of taking them in. Other journalists and staff writers were either on piece rates or a dollar a day basic. <br />
<br />
Domestic servants: When [[Tiffany Aching]], aged thirteen, leaves the Chalk to train as a witch in [[Lancre]], the cover-story used by the Witches is that she is going into domestic service as a Maid. Tiffany notes they have gone to some trouble to get the wage rates and working conditions sounding right. Tiffany is agreed to be worth, because of her prowess with cheese, four dollars a month, her own bed, one day off per week and a week's holiday at Hogswatch. The text notes that three dollars a month would be underpayment, and five dollars a month just that suspicious bit too generous. <br />
<br />
Heretofore, in {{MM}}, was paid fofty dollars a month as Cosmo Lavish's private secretary. However, as Lavish was insane, this may be atypical. An alternative picture - given that Lavish, in his "I am Vetinari" insanity, called his secretary Drumknott, suggests he is making a fetish of matching the wage Vetinari paid his secretary. <br />
<br />
A top fashion model such as [[Juliet Stollop]] ''begins'' at $AM25 for a single appearance. Glenda Sugarbean reflected that this is ''more'', for a couple of hours work, than she receives in a month as a senior cook/manager. <br />
<br />
===The super-rich===<br />
<br />
[[Samuel Vimes]] was consternated to be told that, on marrying [[Sybil Ramkin]], his net worth was $AM7,000,000 ''per year''. Can this be taken as typical for the very richest in society?<br />
<br />
(At this point another consideration to be taken into account is '''[[Creaser|taxes]]''', as [[Samuel Vimes]] is on record, in a room full of rich tax-evaders, as saying he pays his. What are the City taxes and how are they assessed?)<br />
<br />
In {{RM}}, we hear of the wranglings between the University and the Patrician as to whether the city's ''per capita'' tax applied to wizards. This tax is explicitly described as $AM200 per head, payable in four quarterly instalments of $AM50. Several problems emerge instantly when analysing this. For instance, [[Topsy Lavish]] implied that the majority of poorer people in Ankh-Morpork are on incomes of $AM150 a year or less for ''all'' expenses. (This estimate is supported in {{UA}}, when Glenda Sugarbean reflects that a pair of high-end fashion boots from [[Shatta]] cost $AM400 - Glenda notes this is about the average yearly income for a full family in her part of town). A tax of $AM200 would be impractical (and uncollectable?). Also, in a city of a million people, this implies Vetinari would have an annual taxable income of $AM200,000,000. This is hardly in-keeping with the air of a great city, fallen from grace and poverty-stricken, that he very carefully projects when asked for money. This also places a very optimistic gloss on the willingness of AM citizens to pay tax! (Reference Carrot's patient memory-jogging session with the Dwarf bakers in {{MAA}}). Not to mention the City's ability to collect, which Vetinari concedes at the end of {{MM}} is in urgent need of review.<br />
<br />
One would suspect that a City poll tax exists, but is very carefully gradated to reflect ability to pay - i.e., an institution such as the University, perceived to be rich, pays more for its fully graduated wizards than, say, for non-teaching staff or students. It may even be charged with collecting this on behalf of the City and handing over an agreed lump sum (the text of {{RM}} implies this). In which case other informal "honesty-box" arrangements may exist with other Guilds and institutions.<br />
<br />
==The "general headings" for most peoples' expenditure, post-tax and deductions== <br />
<br />
<br />
===Rent and accommodation===<br />
(including "utilities" - cost of staying warm and lit indoors). Generally rent - not much of a mortgage market in A-M? <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, Mrs [[Spent]] offers [[Ossie Brunt]]'s old room at $AM2 per week: this is for an almost unfurnished room that only has a ramshackle bed in it. Oh, and a broken window.<br />
<br />
In {{GP}}, the three members of [[the Smoking Gnu]] "rent" accommodation at the [[Post Office]] for $AM3.00 per week. As this was to provide [[Tolliver Groat]] and [[Stanley Howler]] with some sort of subsistence income in lieu of pay they were not receiving, the assumption could be that Groat, a man who had to be worldly-wise in this respect, was charging the going rate plus some "silence money" on top, as he sensed the Gnu were not completely legitimate.<br />
<br />
In {{NW}}, [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] negotiates a rate of five dollars per month with full board for a room at [[John Lawn]]'s. Although part of this could have been nuisance money.<br />
<br />
===Real Estate===<br />
In {{M!}, it is revealed that the value of the [[Opera House]] when last up for sale was $AM30,000 for the whole building and the business. although Mr [[Salzella]] lets slip to [[Seldom Bucket]] that the previous owner was so keen to sell that he would have been happy with $AM25,000. <br />
<br />
===Food and drink===<br />
How do people eat? We've already done a comparison on the cost of a takeaway and found it costs roughly the same proportion of daily pay in Ankh-Morpork as in Manchester. But food bought in and cooked at home?<br />
<br />
We know one [[elim]] will buy one very small potato. So a full penny - sixteen elims - might buy enough potatoes for a meal for one, perhaps two? (Assuming "small potato" might equate to "Jersey New" - ie, about half the size of a golf ball, at their biggest).<br />
<br />
In {{T5E}}, we discover the cost of a plucked and prepared chicken ready for cooking is $AM1 in the city. This fits, as historically chicken has always been something of a luxury meat: it's only in the last thirty years or so that poultry prices have dropped to the extent that it has become an everyday commonplace. (Comedian Spike Milligan recalls that in the 1930's, Christmas dinner was the rare treat of chicken. His family couldn't afford turkey and most weeks of the year they couldn't even afford chicken). A chicken would have been kept for the ongoing resource it provided in the form of eggs, and it would only have gone into the pot right at the very end of its life.<br />
<br />
Out in the countryside, the availability of chicken increases, while transportation costs decline, so prices drop to 10 pence per bird. <br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, an unspecified weight of butchered rat fillets costs two pence. This must be a substantial weight, as the blood content is more than ample to satiate the primal urge of a vampire on the brink of renouncing Temperance. As rat is a relatively cheap meat, (and as far as we know eaten only by Dwarfs) would other available meatstuffs take their price cue from the "rat standard"? <br />
<br />
It's interesting that the going rate for unbutchered fresh rat carcasses is three for two pence (from the litany of grumbles made by Wee Mad Arthur, rat-catcher) and prime fillets taken from choice areas sell for as much as an entire carcass. <br />
<br />
In {{FOC}}, we can infer the cost of Ecstatic-One-Hundred-And-Fifty-Minutes (getting the whole of a packed Drum incapably drunk up to and including sale of pints of gin) was $AM25, less three pence in change. <br />
<br />
According to the [[goblin]] Regret of the Falling Leaf, one can purchase a Special Reserve Cognac from [[Quirm]] for AM$60 from [[Horrids]] on [[Broadway]], although there is a two-for-one deal at the Twister Boote's bottle shop in [[The Shades|the Shades]]- although the latter does have a slight taste of anchovy. This is surprisingly expensive, especially by Shades standards, but it is to be presumed that anything foreign is worth the extra money.<br />
<br />
Also from {{FOC}}, there is the throwaway line that a dollar buys a loaf of bread - this is ridiculously expensive for a staple foodstuff. Perhaps this is a case of TP pulling a figure out of the air to illustrate a point about relative affluence - ie, gnomes and pictsies can earn as much as a human, but require far less in the way of food and in any case can make a home from a hollowed out stale loaf (of dwarf bread? Must be like a prefab made out of breezeblock). Maybe TP did the same not as actual cost but as illustration of the principle involved when defining the Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of economic inequality - in this, the cost of a pair of boots is also pitched unfeasibly high, as has been noted.<br />
<br />
===Clothing===<br />
Historically, clothing was ''always'' more expensive in previous centuries, viewed as a higher proportion of one's weekly income. The individual would own less clothes but pay more for them. <br />
<br />
In {{M!!!}}, the cost of a bespoke, haute couture, ballgown is given as $AM 300-500. This is hardly representative: in {{TT}}, [[Sacharissa Cripslock]] considered $AM40 would be the price for a dress you wear at a ball given by [[Selachii|Lady Selachii]] and she couldn't afford that kind of money. On the other hand, [[William de Worde|William de Worde's]] sister would be shocked to find anyone could spend as little as forty dollars for a dress. Similarly, the disgusting and loathsome [[Crispin Horsefry]], surely the Disc's first proto-Yuppie, spends $AM100 ''on a single shirt'' - because he ''can'', not because the shirt is in any justifiable sense worth $100. A pair of ''really expensive'' fashion boots for Dwarfs costs $AM400 from [[Shatta]]. <br />
<br />
In {{M}}, we meet the landlord of [[The Quene's Head/Duke's Head]], and discover that he is considered affluent because he owns two shirts (one green, one yellow). <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, we learn of the [[Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice]]: a ''really'' good pair of boots might be bought for $AM50. However, on a watchman's pay, even an officer's, he might struggle to get a "cheap" pair for $AM10....<br />
<br />
The cost of a new gentleman's suit, with a spare pair of trousers possibly thrown in, is quoted in the early pages of {{RM}} as being $7. (As Ridcully points out, though, this is on the cheap side). <br />
<br />
But then, there's always the [[Soon Shine Sun|Shonky Shop]], for items of clothing that look nostalgically back on the days when they were merely second-hand...<br />
<br />
====Underwear====<br />
[[Lu-Tze]], in {{TOT}}, informs us that Mrs.[[Marietta Cosmopilite]], in accordance with the ''koan'' ''"Wrap up warm, or you'll catch your death"'', will do bespoke long johns, described as ''double-knit combinations, silk on the inside, then three layers of wool, with two handy trapdoors'' for $AM6 a pair, as he's an old and valued customer. However, she apparently can't turn a heel worth a damn. No prices are yet quoted for the products constructed for ladies who need to watch their figures, those who are perhaps more pint glass than hourglass, by [[Burleigh and Spoke]].<br />
<br />
===Necessary bills===<br />
No state schools - therefore school fees for all children. <br />
*''Contingencies'': I'm assuming there is neither an NHS nor a welfare state in Ankh-Morpork. This heading might cover doctors' bills/general medical, dental (such as it is)<br />
<br />
Some occupations, such as Watchman, come with free medical care, in the form of an [[Igor]], and occasional recourse to Dr. [[John Lawn|Lawn]] where this is needed. Assassins have a retained [[Doctor]] at their [[Assassins' Guild|Guild]], but Assassination is an occupation that might be considered that of a self-employed professional, or providing a pocket-money second income to a gentleman who is already well provided for and would be expected to meet his own medical expenses privately. <br />
<br />
A comment in {{FOC}} suggests the cost of even an unsuccessful consultation with a doctor is AM$30.00, but this is a month's pay to many people and seems excessive. Indeed, in {{NW}}, John Lawn charges [[Sam Vimes|John Keel]] AM$6.00 for resetting and plastering the broken arm of an injured [[Cable Street Particulars|Unmentionable]]. It is hinted that this is an inflated fee, dependent on: (i) it being the middle of the night; (ii) the patient being a Cable Street Particular, who Mossy despises for professional reasons; (iii) this being all the money the man had on him when searched. Mossy's actual usual fee might have been far lower. <br />
<br />
Like officers in certain upscale Army regiments, who are expected to be gentlemen of independent means, the official pay would just be small change and very few would rely on this alone for some sort of a living income. This last point is borne out in {{MR}}, where it has been calculated that the official salary of a very junior officer (in the Borogravian Army at least) is approximately seven AM shillings per day (subject to rates of exhange and the fact that the Borogravian currency is considered to be "fiat money" by the rest of the Disc's banking experts). This is a pay of AM$28-30 per month - on a par with an Ankhian Watchman, and surely not something an officer and a gentleman should be expected to live on alone! <br />
<br />
(''Economics Note: "Fiat Money"'':- Money whose declared value is unsupported by the usual sort of economic indicators, ie high GDP, balance of payment surplus, gold and currency reserves, desirable export goods. For instance, the old Soviet Union unilaterally declared the exchange rate of the rouble to the dollar was 1:1, where had the Soviet currency been allowed to find its own worth on the capitalist money markets, the true exchange rate might have been 60:1. By decree - '''''fiat''''' - , the Soviets artificially inflated the worth of their currency sixty-fold, but could only really enforce this where the Russian writ ran - the Warsaw Pact states, North Korea, Cuba, and any luckless visitors to the USSR who had to exchange at the official rate. When you know what you're looking for, Borogravian money in {{MR}} is a fiat currency - worth its face value only where this can be enforced, and because the Duchess has decreed it to be so. Fiat currencies are usually the last brute-force method of maintaining some sort of economic stability and staving off final collapse when all else has failed, or an economy has been fatally wounded by internal collapse, prolonged war, or consistently faulty economic assumptions. Regard modern Zimbabwe, inter-war Germany, or Nazi Germany in the last couple of years of WW2, having unaccountably made all its neighbours into implacable enemies and needing to pay the fabulous costs of total war.) <br />
<br />
In {{MAA}}, the cost of a month's education at the Spiteful Sisters of [[Seven-Handed Sek]] Charity School is given as $AM2.00. Therefore yearly fees at a typical school - i.e., one accessible to ordinary people &ndash; might be no more than $AM24 per year.<br />
<br />
===Entertainment===<br />
What do you do with your free time?<br />
<br />
A box at the opera is $AM50 per performance, but the stalls will be cheaper. <br />
<br />
In {{MM}} the [[Mavolio Bent|Chief Cashier]] says that a penny can buy you a seat at the theatre for a hour. It is unknown what theatre he means, or whether he's just being poetic.<br />
<br />
Entry to the [[Odium]] to watch {{MP}} cost 5p, later increased to 10p. On a par with the music hall?<br />
<br />
A [[Twopenny Upright]] is slang for a very basic service from a Seamstress, although it is very likely that while the term remains in current slang, the basic service costs a little bit more than that. Perhaps a broad-minded researcher could locate a price list?<br />
<br />
Mrs [[Evadne Cake]] provides two levels of mediumistic intercession with the future and the next world. Tenpence buys you what she sees. Ten dollars pays for what actually happens.<br />
<br />
===Savings?=== <br />
Or would saving in a "funeral club" count as a deduction prior to receiving bulk residue of pay? <br />
<br />
We now know from {{MM}} that the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] offers interest on small bank accounts, which must over time add to sources of income for account-holders. <br />
<br />
===[[Public transportation|Travel]]===<br />
<br />
A cab fare from the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Elm Street]] is eleven pence. ({{MM}}) It is informally expected a horse cab driver be tipped no less than 10%. ({{CAM}}) <br />
<br />
The coach fare from [[Ankh-Morpork]] to [[Lancre]] is $AM50 ($AM40 is a [[Bandits' Guild]] surcharge). ({{LL}})<br />
<br />
And now, of course, there are the horse omnibuses, the troll cars from {{UA}}, and golem horses from {{SN}} to price into the picture!<br />
<br />
A wider picture is provided in {{CAM}}: the short route from Sator Square to Dolly Sisters is charged at 2p. It is not unreasonable to suggest multiples of 2p are charged for progressively longer distances. <br />
<br />
The night bus from Ankh-Morpork to Sto Lat charges a single fare of two dollars fifty pence.<br />
<br />
Troll taxis (effectively a sedan chair attached to the back of a troll) are charged at approximately double the cost of a bus journey over a comparable distance, although fares into the Shades are surcharged because of the graffiti problem. {{CAM}}<br />
<br />
===Miscellaneous===<br />
<br />
We learn from the [[Yeti|yeti]]-hunters in {{TOT}} that the feet alone of a Yeti can be resold, for certain Agatean medical preparations, for $AM1,000. The pelt is worth an additional $AM900.<br />
<br />
The accepted salary threshold, below which a person is deemed too impecunious to be able to afford the sort of personalised, indeed bespoke, service, offered by the [[Assassins' Guild]], is $AM10,000. Those earning below this yearly income may sometimes come to the notice of the Guild, but many assassins won't bother getting out of bed for small change of this nature. They are certainly thought of as only just being able to afford the Guild's services, if their income is at, or only just exceeds, this level.<br />
<br />
In fairness, the cheapest inhumation on the Guild books is the contract out on Corporal [[Nobby Nobbs]] of the Watch. Including the mandatory 50% Guild Tax, this stands at $AM1.00. (This is only nominal, as no self-respecting Assassin would work for so little, especially if it involves a high risk of being shouted at by Sam Vimes.)<br />
<br />
Lord [[de Worde]] believed that anyone earning less than $1,000 per year was by inference a member of the criminal classes. <br />
<br />
In {{J}}, the cost of a [[Dis-organiser]], being as it is the product of advanced technomancy, is $300.<br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, Otto Chriek expresses a desire for the top-of-the-range Agatean "Akina" iconograph, which has the equivalent of an SLR lens (the demon has a telescopic seat allowing him to get right up close for ''really'' fine detail), together with other buzzers and flashing lights. This is $AM180.<br />
<br />
A bag of fertile soil from one of [[Harry King|Harry Kings]] compost heaps is 10p; but you have to bring your own bag. More ''specialised'' waste from the [[Menagerie]] is priced correspondingly higher: but there's nothing like lion or leopard dung scattered in your flower beds to ward off lesser animals, who can deduce from the presence of lion dung that a lion is nearby and they'd better not hang around to contribute to the next lot. <br />
<br />
The perfume from [[Quirm]], Cedar Fragrance Pour Hommes, is available for AM$15 a pop.<br />
<br />
==Information to be added==<br />
<br />
We should diligently extract examples of given wages and costs from the books, list them under expenditure and income, and see if they stack up.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 12:02, 7 November 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
[[Category: Discworld culture]]<br />
[[de:Ankh-Morpork Dollar]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Heraldry&diff=28880Heraldry2018-01-26T13:36:19Z<p>AgProv: /* Terms */ link</p>
<hr />
<div>This article will focus mainly on the difference between the rules of heraldry on the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]] and our own [[Roundworld]]. To find more general information see {{wp|Heraldry|Wikipedia}}.<br />
<br />
A coat of arms consists of a shield as well as any supporters, crests and mottoes associated with it. <br />
<br />
<br />
== The Shield ==<br />
The main focus of the coat of arms is the shield on which the main design is displayed. The shape of the shield itself is largely irrelevant.<br />
The right and left sides of the shield are called Dexter and Sinister respectively, however this can be misleading as the left and right are always considered from the point of view of the shield itself so its right (Dexter) is your left and so on. Use of the correct terms prevents confusion.<br />
<br />
== Colour ==<br />
While a coat of arms can theoretically make use of any colour, heralds traditionally confine themselves to a fairly limited palette. In our world heralds have specific rules concerning the use of colour which seem to be much more relaxed in Discworld. <br />
The main tinctures are listed below.<br />
<table border><br />
<tr><th>Shade</th><th>Name</th><th>Colour</th></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Or01.jpg]]</td><td>Or</td><td>Gold/Yellow</td></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Argent.jpg]]</td><td>Argent</td><td>Silver/white</td></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Azure.jpg]]</td><td>Azure</td><td>Blue</td></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Gules.jpg]]</td><td>Gules</td><td>Red</td></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Purpure.jpg]]</td><td>Purpure</td><td>Purple</td></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Sable.jpg]]</td><td>Sable</td><td>Black</td></tr><br />
<tr><td>[[Image:Vert.jpg]]</td><td>Vert</td><td>Green</td></tr><br />
<table border><br />
<br />
== Terms ==<br />
Some heraldic terms as used in discworld and their translations;<br />
<br />
*Sans fenêtres - without windows<br />
*Bourses d'or - bags of gold (The ''Bourse'' in Paris is also the French Stock Exchange, equivalent to Wall Street or the City of London)<br />
*Croix - cross<br />
*Clochette - ''litt.'' little bell<br />
*Guardant - looking at the viewer<br />
*Passant - walking<br />
*Poignard - dagger<br />
*Maçonnerie - masonry<br />
*Rampant - standing/erect<br />
*d'or - meaning "of gold", it may be intended to signify metallic gold as opposed to merely yellow or gold coloured but this has not been definitively stated.<br />
<br />
<br />
It is interesting to note that Ankh-Morpork heraldry uses terms derived from [[Quirm|French]], a Discworld language we have not encountered otherwise, except in relation to food: most of the terms used in the restaurant in {{H}} are French. Also, [[Nanny Ogg]] uses a bastard version of French in many of her 'foreign' utterances. Though when she swears, she says "pardon my Klatchian".<br />
<br />
[[Category:Discworld concepts]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:Making_Money/Annotations&diff=28292Book:Making Money/Annotations2017-09-13T18:40:47Z<p>AgProv: Another Illuminatus link</p>
<hr />
<div>==By page number==<br />
Page numbers refer to the UK edition. Those in italics refer to the US edition.<br />
<br />
[pg. 23]- 'If it's about the cabbage-flavoured stamp glue-' Moist began.' <br />
This is a reference to Vimes' statement on page 40 of {{T!}}: '"Remember the cabbage-scented stamp last month?...They actually caught fire if you put too many of them together!"'. <br />
<br />
'''''(UK Doubleday hardback pp42-43):-''''' Discussing the Elim, the smallest coin of all, traditionally made by widows "and of course it's handy to drop in the charity box". In the bible, Jesus's parable of '''''the widow's mite''''', in which the smallest coin of all, donated by a poor widow, has more value than all the gold ostentatiously placed in there by the Pharisees, simply because it is all she has to give. <br />
<br />
(109) ''Food gets you through times of no gold better than gold gets you through times of no food'' - this is a clever re-stating of Shelton and Mavrides' hippy maxim, used in their comic books about the alternative lifestyle trio '''''{{wp|Fabulous_Furry_Freak_Brothers|The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers}}''''', which originally states:-<br />
<br />
''Dope gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no dope.''<br />
<br />
And of course a form of "dope", considered superior by cannabis connoisseurs, is known as Acapulco '''''Gold'''''...<br />
<br />
(127) "Jack Proust" is an aging comic, the central character in [http://www.sfweekly.com/1999-05-12/calendar/send-in-the-clowns/ ''The First 100 Years''], written and performed by former [[Fools' Guild|clown]] {{wp|Geoff_Hoyle|Geoff Hoyle}}.<br />
<br />
(139 Corgi Paperback UK)"nom d'une bouilloire? pourquoi est-ce que je suis hardiment ri sous cape à part les dieux" = "name of a kettle? why is it that I am boldly chuckled except the gods" - please someone explain what that means!<br />
<br />
(145 Corgi Paperback UK) "Ad Urbem Pertinet" = "Belongs to the City". Written on Von Lipwig's draft banknote, see also the following.<br />
<br />
(146 Corgi Paperback UK) "promitto fore ut possessori postulanti nummum unum solvem an apte satisfaciam" = "I promise to pay an adequate defense, the owner asked for one piece" - Although that is the literal translation this refers to the inscription on English banknotes, beneath the words Bank of England, which read "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of" followed by the denomination of the note. Originally this meant the note would be exchanged by the bank for the equivalent value in gold; since Britain abandoned the gold standard the phrase is entirely decorative.<br />
<br />
(155/''167'') "Bent stood up in one unfolding moment, like a jack-in-the-box." &mdash; This foreshadowing will later prove as subtle as a pie in the face.<br />
<br />
(190-200/''208-218'') The [[Cabinet of Curiosity]] may be the [http://www.amazon.com/Cabinet-Natural-Curiosities-Complete-1734-1765/dp/3822847941/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-4978409-2923019 Cabinet of Natural Curiosities], a natural history by Albertus Seba. The back cover of the book has a plate of a giant squid. (A lot of museums have a Cabinet of Curiosity as part of their collection.)<br />
<br />
(214/''236'') The unusual font indicating the archaic language of Formal Golem uses the Enochian alphabet created by the 16th Century mathematician and astronomer John Dee. (Himself a Discworld character in {{SOD2}}, where he hosts visiting Wizards from Discworld In Elizabethan London, Dee lived at [[Mort Lake|Mortlake]], which is also a location in Ankh-Morpork)). It uses letter by letter substitution to create the effect. The Formal Golem language is designated as appropriate to a near-contemporary of Umnian's multi-meaninged tongue. The characters for r/m, i/y, c/k, and u/v/w are effectively indistinguishable, and the s and e are quite similar. Translated, Adora Belle says "I can speak formal golem."<br />
Of course, we meet Doctor John Dee in {{SOD2}}.<br />
<br />
(221/''244'') In Formal Golem, Flead first says, "You make eternity bearable!" and then asks "Why do you care about golems? They have no passionate parts!" [http://www.stooryduster.co.uk/images/pages/common-private-golem-language.htm A visual key to the Enochian alphabet can be found here] where you can try the translations yourself.<br />
<br />
(262/''293'') Moist initially makes the same mistake as [[William de Worde]], and assumes that just because [[Nobby Nobbs]] requires proof of species, he's the "Watch Werewolf". <br />
<br />
(268/''299-300'') [[Mr Fusspot]]'s courtship of [[Angua von Überwald]] is reminiscent of the battery-powered dog toys beloved of British shopping centres, which yap, somersault and repeat, although none of them come with the "new toy" delicately described by [[Carrot Ironfoundersson|Captain Carrot]] as "a wind-up clockwork item of an intimate nature".<br />
<br />
(p333, UK): ''Tell us the secret, Mr Lipwig." Vetinari is putting subtle pressure on Moist to explain the secret of the Umnian golems. "Tell '''''us'''''" could refer to the fact Adora Belle also wants to know. However. In Freemasonry, a higher-level Initiation involves the candidate being symbolically tortured by pitiless creatures who continually demand "Tell us the secret!" If the Candidate withstands the torture, his tormentors turn to the Grand Master and regretfully say things like "I vexed his inner soul and spirit most greatly, Master, but he remained mute". To which the Master shakes his head regretfully, and orders the candidate to be killed and buried. Who is then interred in a closed coffin and left to stew for a few hours. After which he is symbolically reborn into the Light as a higher-level Mason and a new person... killed and resurrected. Offered an Angel, perhaps. (Robert Anton Wilson uses this as a theme in one of the ''Illuminatus!'' fantasy novels.) <br />
<br />
In {{TT}}, Mr. Tuttle Scrope is put up as the replacement Patrician for Vetinari. He runs a shop that sells Leatherwork, "... and rubber work... and feathers... and whips... and... little jiggly things" and was, presumably, the supplier for Sir Joshua Lavish in Making Money, who had the cabinet full of such supplies.<br />
<br />
==Need linking to page==<br />
The [[Lavishes]] are distinctly reminiscent of the Borgias. The same extended family, devious infighting, and desire for political power. The most famous Borgia dynasty includes Cesare and Lucrezia "Lucci" Borgia, mirrored here as [[Cosmo Lavish]] and [[Pucci Lavish]], although an alternate source for the name of Cosmo would be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosimo_de'_Medici Cosimo de Medici], the first of the Medici to become ruler (Patrician?) of Florence.<br />
Incidentally, Pucci is also the name of another influential family from Florence, political allies to the Medici family, particularly Cosimo. Possibly such references to other members (or allies) of the Medici family exist among the Lavishes.<br />
<br />
Moist's plan to sell the gold of the bank mirrors the actions of {{wp|Gordon Brown|Gordon Brown}}, who sold 400 tons of Gold Bullion between 1999 and 2002. His comments on gold have been a recurring theme in the Discworld books, ever since the Colour of Magic.<br />
<br />
Brown's predecessor, {{wp|John Major|John Major}}, was an accountant and son of a trapeze artist; he has been described as "the only man to run away from the circus to become an accountant."<br />
<br />
Moist mentions that his family in Uberwald belong to a religion which he describes as the "plain potato church." There is also an "Ancient and Orthodox" potato church -- could this be related to Mr Tulip's religion in {{TT}}? Both men originally come from an unspecified place in Far Uberwald and Mr Tulip mentions that his religion goes back hundreds of years... is it possible that Moist comes from the same village or one nearby?<br />
<br />
==A motif recurring throughout the book==<br />
All the sly references to the Roundworld game of Monopoly, which involves a bank, financial speculation, capital investment in a city, and striving to reduce your opponents to absolute penury and degradation. This is dealt with in more detail ''[[Exclusive Possession|here]]''. <br />
<br />
[[Category:Annotations|Making Money/Annotations]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Mrs_Beddowe%27s_House&diff=27868Talk:Mrs Beddowe's House2017-08-27T21:44:46Z<p>AgProv: </p>
<hr />
<div>These are difficult to edit because the source material is scarce. Are we sure we mean "Mousier" le Balourd? (Whatever the honorific, the name is difficult for an Assassin: it's Quirmian for "oaf" or "dolt". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:15, 18 February 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
M. LeBalouard is also listed elsewhere as Dance and Deportment master. Although I concede the "Mousier" bit could have been noticed by a student with a better than usual grasp of Quirmian - it puns "monsieur", after all, and the saying is, you have mastered a foreign language when you can make punes in it. Perhaps the originator of the pun was warmly congratulated on his grasp of the language, and it was noted that with this ability to make punes, he had a glittering educational experience ahead of him... at the Fools' Guild School, who were always on the lookout for promising pupils. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:11, 18 February 2013 (GMT)<br />
:[[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] seems to have fled, leaving this little puzzle. Someone else must have a Yearbook...? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:00, 16 April 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
mine's in German; I can pick through it with care and thought. I'm wondering how any intended pun would have come out in the German language... a pun in French inserted into English as a "bilingual bonus" coming back at us via German.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Amelie_Willet&diff=27867Talk:Amelie Willet2017-08-27T20:55:02Z<p>AgProv: </p>
<hr />
<div>Amelie and [[Alexandra Willet]] are described by essentially the same article. Are they separate characters, and if so, shouldn't there be an explanation for the similar description, and links? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
The Willet sisters (?) are named seperately in seperate notes in the Post Office Handbook - so if not intended, this is a publication glitch or a continuity error.[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:55, 27 August 2017 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Reading_suggestions&diff=27866Reading suggestions2017-08-27T20:21:02Z<p>AgProv: /* {{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}} */</p>
<hr />
<div>A question that regularly pops up is: ''I'm enjoying Pratchett, what other books are there I could possibly enjoy?''. This page is here to help you. If you like Pratchett, these books are recommended by the fans.<br />
<br />
*For the more graphically-oriented, see also [[Webcomic and Graphic Novel Suggestions]].<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}}==<br />
A former scriptwriter for ''Doctor Who'', Ben has branched out into writing the ''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_London_(novel)| Rivers of London]'' fantasy series. (Retitled ''Midnight Riot'' in the USA). Peter Grant is a newly-graduated police constable in London. He is less than enchanted to be assigned to a department dealing with records and data-entry, and feels being labelled as a uniformed admin clerk has killed his police career before it has even begun. Then he meets Inspector Nightingale, who he discovers runs a department that the Met reluctantly accepts it has to have, but is less than generally thrilled to admit to and which it regards as an anachronistic embarrassment in this day and age. Grant finds himself re-assigned to The Folly. And becomes a policeman walking a really weird beat - dealing with things of magic, folklore and more-than-myth which are still there in London and need to be policed. He discovers in a city with two thousand years of history, some things are inevitable, and come with the turf. He becomes an apprentice wizard and learns magic is still there. And magical crime needs magical policemen. The higher echelons of the Met and British government are resigned to this and accept there needs to be such a Force. Peter's adventures in the magical underbelly of London are described with black humour and a lot of absurd moments. <br />
<br />
Just to make it clear where he gets his inspiration from, Ben dedicates at least one of the books (in which elves ands unicorns figure) to Sir Terry Pratchett.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Piers Anthony|Piers Anthony}}==<br />
{{wp|Xanth|Xanth}} series. Xanth is a very punny fantasy world. Piers Anthony also writes the "Terry Pratchett is fast, funny, and going places. Try him!" blurb found on many of Terry's books.<br />
<br />
Xanth is probably best thought of as the ''Chronicles of Narnia'' played as a ''Carry On'' film. <br />
<br />
I personally have found Anthony more corny than funny, with a very robotic, formulaic, writing style and a very dirty mind, even for purported "kids'" books. The humor is far sillier and more lowbrow. -[[User:Cidolfas|Cidolfas]]<br />
<br />
Piers Anthony's other series (eg, {{wp|Incarnations_of_Immortality|''Incarnations of Immortality''}} and {{wp|Apprentice_Adept|''Apprentice Adept''}}) are not humorous, and are not similar to Terry's works. At best, the ''Incarnations'' series revolves around the idea that anthropomorphic personalities may "retire" from their jobs and return to the real world as they choose, and may select and train a successor. Anthony's Fate, for instance, takes it a step further and plays with the idea that this anthropomorphic personality might well run down a family dynasty, the female members of which each adopt one of the three faces of the classic Greek Fate. Death, in Anthony's world, is not so much a person as a job description. But this is only superficially similar to Death and Time each being a family business on the Discworld. <br />
<br />
"I tried reading ''A Spell for Chameleon'' back in 1986 and threw it across the room after three chapters. I tried again in 2007 and lasted for five chapters. Just can't do it". This illustrates the idea that Xanth, while a tour-de-farce of the imagination, can in some readers evoke a reaction similar to that of Susan Sto Helit when she contemplates dancing across the rooftops with a cheeky cheery chimney sweep. Susan would see nothing wrong in a spoonful of sugar, but gallons of cloying syrup might well provoke a vomiting reflex. Xanth, with its heavy archness, is best approached when in a mood of whimsy and minimal critical function. In this frame of mind, it is not unpleasant, but too much syrup can kill tastebuds. The concept of the Adult Secret involves a perceived Adult Conspiracy to keep children in the dark about sexual matters for as long as possible.<br />
<br />
Re-reading Piers Anthony lately - not just Xanth but more mainline novels - I also felt v. uneasy about Piers A's occasional lapses into fascination with the physical development of pubescent girls. In one of the ''Incarnations'' books, for instance, he has an eleven year old girl strip naked while an older relative has a private inner reverie about the attractive shape of her body. It isn't pornographic, and the plot that calls for it isn't too contrived, but it's written in enough loving detail to make me feel uneasy and voyeuristic about reading it. And this isn't exactly an isolated occurrence in his books, ref. an interest in pre-teen girls...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 11:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
As a forensic psychologist, I'm writing further to what AgProv has written on the Piers Anthony sexual storyline with the 11 year old child. Frankly, Anthony's writing verges on unlawful pedophilia writings and I am amazed that a mainstream publisher would actually give credence to Anthony's perverted and sick fantasies involving children that are truly DISTURBING. He is like a dirty old man leering over a legal minor in the kind of graphic and sick sexual detail that makes my hair stand on end. Let's be clear - this kind of pedophilia-type "prose" would be condemned almost anywhere, if it wasn't dressed up as 'literature'. Piers Anthony is way out of the league of Terry Pratchett, and shouldn't even be compared. He is not even a poor imitation. I would welcome what others have to say, but for me, Xanth far from being a Chronicles of Narnia, is a poorly-written tripe. What bothers me most is how Piers Anthony writes such plainly disturbing pedophilia sexual accounts involving a minor, which is typical pedophile behavior both pre- and post-action. This should be wholeheartedly condemned by all responsible adults... --[[User:Jongerman|Jongerman]] 09:11, 29 January 2011 (EST)<br />
<br />
Further details about PA's approach to sexual content ''[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAppeal here]''. No editorialising, judge for yourself. <br />
<br />
And while the purpose of this entry isn't to try the man, but to point out he HAS written some eminently readable sci-fi and fantasy ('''''Prosthro Plus'''''. about an Earth dentist abducted into Space and having to get up to speed with alien oral hygiene ''very quickly'', is hilarious and recommended), it is perhaps germane to consider a "quest" book Anthony wrote in the Xanth series. It becomes of extreme importance for the questing party to get a true answer to a mystery which gives the novel its name - '''''The Color of Her Panties'''''. In which female knickers pertaining to younger ladies are discussed and described at length. - --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 19:59, 12 May 2011 (CEST)<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Piers_Anthony|Piers Anthony}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Kelley Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}}==<br />
Author of a series of books concerning how members of magical and Undead races have had to "go underground" to survive in the modern USA. '''''"Men of the Otherworld"''''' is about a young Werewolf growing up in his Pack and learning how to behave so as to fit into human society. He is taught who he can eat, when he can eat them, about Pack dynamics and politics, and how not to stand out at school (eating the class guinea pig is a great big no-no).<br />
<br />
In '''''"No Humans Involved"''''', the location is a Haunted House TV show. In the UK these are shot in green light in an allegedly haunted house while it is cooling from the day in the wee small hours of the morning. Therefore there are a lot of creaks and drips for an ex-childrens' TV presenter and a camp scouse "psychic" to get excited about. <br />
In Kelley Armstrong's USA, what happens when a ''real'' psychic, in fact a trained and hereditary Necromancer, joins the presenting team on such a show...<br />
<br />
Horror done with wicked humour. She has also written the ''Nadia Stafford'' trilogy: about a woman who has the skills, resolve, and methodical ability to plan and avoid ''over-confidence'' that makes her into somebody who could walk into the Guild of Assassins and be instantly welcomed as part of the Sorority. <br />
<br />
Reccomendation by --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Kelley_Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Robert Asprin|Robert Asprin}}==<br />
Author of the hilarious {{wp|Mythadventures|''Mythadventures''}} series of novels, featuring a young magician, his pet dragon, a tough-but-lovable demon friend, a sexy trollop assassin, her hairy troll brother, a couple of mafia hitmen, a moll, and more.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Robert_Asprin|Robert Asprin}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Josef Assad|Josef Assad}}==<br />
Released his first novel [http://www.archive.org/details/JosefAssad_TheBanjoPlayersMustDie ''The Banjo Players Must Die''] under a free Creative Commons license. Reading like a misanthropic Terry Pratchett, it is a dystopian and self-referential history of how Judgment Day came about, for very small values of 'came about'.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Josef_Assad|Josef Assad}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Clive Barker|Clive Barker}}==<br />
Clive Barker is a fantasy writer known for painting amazing watercolors to accompany his writing. Some of his works include the award winning series '''[[Wikipedia:Abarat|Abarat]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Imajica|Imajica]]''' and '''The Damnation Game'''. The book ''Abarat'' and its sequels tell the story of Candy Quakenbush, a teenage girl who gets pulled into a strange archipelago called The Abarat. The Abarat consists of twenty five islands, each one a different hour of the day, and one island that is time out of time. The series centers around the conflict between the islands of day and the islands of night. While ''Abarat'' and other books by Clive Barker are not a funny as Pratchett's they more then make up for it in oddness and the insanity of the worlds and characters.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Clive_Barker|Clive Barker}} on Wikipedia<br />
* Clive Barker's website: [http://www.clivebarker.info/]<br />
<br />
=={{wp|James Bibby|James Bibby}}==<br />
The author of ''Ronan the Barbarian'' and its two sequels, all of which fit perfectly in the genre of comic fantasy. Much like Pratchett's earlier novels (although admittedly, much more ''adult''-oriented), the novel plays on the clichéd fantasy genre, but also includes genuinely interesting and likable characters. The book may be hard to find -- as it was only published in 1995, and once more in 1996 -- but definitely worth the trouble, being close-to the funniest author I've had the pleasure of reading. - [[User:Quoth|Quoth]]<br />
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* {{wp|James_Bibby|James Bibby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Susanna Clarke|Susanna Clarke}}==<br />
The author(ess?) of ''Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell''. This is an enormous book, written as an alternate history set in 19th-century England around the time of the Napoleonic Wars. It is based on the premise that magic once existed in England and has returned with two men: Gilbert Norrell and Jonathan Strange. Centering on the relationship between these two men, the novel investigates the nature of "Englishness" and the boundary between reason and madness. It has been described as a fantasy novel, an alternate history, and an historical novel. The narrative draws on various Romantic literary traditions, such as the comedy of manners, the Gothic tale, and the Byronic hero. The novel's language is a pastiche of 19th-century writing styles, such as those of Jane Austen and Charles Dickens. Clarke describes the supernatural with mundane details. Neil Gaiman, no less, described it as "unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the last 70 years". Look it up on Wikipedia - the way Bloomsbury pushed its publication is jaw-dropping - and even more so when you know it was her first novel! Recommended by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Susanna_Clarke|Susanna Clarke}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}}==<br />
The author of the novel {{wp|Ready Player One|''Ready Player One''}}. A story set in a dystopia future that is so bleak that humanity collectively lives through the OASIS, a full immersion computer game, where the games creator has left his huge fortune to whoever can find his hidden 'Easter Egg.' A great novel for fans of sci-fi and humour similar to Terry Pratchett, he's even mentioned a couple of times. Recommended by [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] 17:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC).<br />
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*{{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Eoin Colfer|Eoin Colfer}}==<br />
Eoin (pronounced "Owen") Colfer has come up with another world not too dissimilar to ours, but this time it's our world as we know it interfacing with the world of the Lower Elements: fairies, trolls (even thicker than TP's!), goblins, dwarves and the like. It even has a reason why the word Leprechaun exists: it comes from LEP Recon &ndash; the reconnaissance and recovery side of the Lower Elements Police. They are nominally childrens' books, but none the worse for that. So, essentially, is ''The Hobbit'' (see also comments for Diana Wynne Jones). The books centre around one "Artemis Fowl" - a twelve-year-old criminal mastermind. Swallow that, and the books are delightful. There is a large dollop of Pratchett-esque humour: witness why dwarves are such good diggers!!!! --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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'''Breaking News:''' Eoin Colfer has been selected to complete a largely unstarted sixth volume of [[Douglas Adams]]' h2g2 series:-<br />
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/17/douglasadams] The resultant book has now been released under the title of '''''And Another Thing....''''' I'm reading it. It's good! --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC).<br />
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He's pretty darn good. And the Artemis Fowl timeline is essentially a budget version of the Disc's: as convoluted as you can make it in seven books. --[[User:Dragon4|Dragon4]] ([[User talk:Dragon4|talk]]) 21:16, 13 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
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* {{wp|Eoin_Colfer|Eoin Colfer}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}}==<br />
Written in 2004, Conlon's autobiography '''Blue Blood''' came too late for it to have directly influenced most of the Watch books. Conlon is the third generation of his family to have served in the New York Police Department, following his grandfather and father. In 560 pages, he relates many accounts of the events likely to happen to an NYPD patrolman in the course of his duties. These can be horrifying, amusing, or just plain weird by turns. Many of them, such as the possibly rabid domestic cat that could make [[Greebo]] look like a placid neuteree, could have been scripted for the Watch to deal with. The everyday frustrations of police work, such as the bureaucracy, the chore of report-writing, political interference from above, and the personality types of his fellow cops, could all be background for a Watch novel. Among many other little details of police life, conlon also has an interesting take on the whole grey area between legitimate "perks" and outright bribe-taking. He also describes his grandfather with love and affection, a beat cop who Fred Colon would have hailed as a long-lost brother. Conlon does for the NYPD what Joseph Wambaugh (a known influence on the Watch) does for the LAPD on the other coast. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}}==<br />
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Author of a very funny and at the same time extremely erudite series set in the Ancient Rome of Vespasian, about an informer (something like a private detective) by the name of Marcus Didius Falco, an Aventine guttersnipe who, having fallen in love with a senator's daughter, the spirited, independent-minded Helena, sets out to better himself socially and financially. Ms Davis takes a light-and-dark, and entertainingly cynical, approach to the seedy realities of day-to-day life and politics in Vespasian's Rome, and has Marcus and Helena involved in a string of mysteries as they accept jobs from everyone from jealous spouses to the emperor himself. A spin-off series is set in a slightly later time when Falco has prudently retired from investigating, citing a need to stay away from the attentions of a paranoid and despotic new Emperor who he investigated when he was merely a Prince, and has incriminating evidence against. The focus of the series now moves to his adopted daughter Flavia Albia, who has learnt well from her father and become a private detective herself. Very well written and highly addictive.<br />
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* {{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diane Duane|Diane Duane }}==<br />
Again, another writer of YA books, but very ''very'' good ones. Her {{wp|Young Wizards|''Young Wizards''}} series, starting off with "So You Want to be a Wizard", explores what ''really'' happens when you sign up to be a wizard, eg: travelling to alternate dimensions with friendly, ''sentient'' micro-stars, inviting alien foreign exchange students to stay the planet, and helping whales perform ancient rituals underneath the sea to prevent the earth from cracking like an egg. I could go on, but I think a quote from TVTropes sums up the series perfectly: "Infamous in its fandom for a tendency to grab you by the heart and squeeze" --[[User:Varriount|Varriount]]<br />
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* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Duane Diane Duane] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jasper Fforde|Jasper Fforde}}==<br />
Author of the Thursday Next books which started with ''The Eyre Affair.''<br />
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Perhaps the closest thing to the Pratchett theme of story-driven reality, but start with ''The Eyre Affair''; we were pretty disappointed with ''Something Rotten'' at our house.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]]<br />
:I'll go with that - ''Something Rotten'' was pretty rotten, but the four '''Thursday Next''' books are excellent. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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Fforde is very apt at twisting the narrative conventions, and his humour is very Pratchett-like indeed. I also recommend the Nursery Rhyme series, starting with The ''Big Over Easy'', starring Marlowe-like detective Jack Spratt. --Abie, 25 May 2010.<br />
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His books are very good: The Last Dragonslayer books are hilarious, and the first one especially has quite a clever premise. One of his latest books had a review along the lines of 'Watch out Terry Pratchett,' on it, so that should give you some idea...--[[User:AnnieBudgie|AnnieBudgie]] ([[User talk:AnnieBudgie|talk]]) 11:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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Indeed, the [[Terry Pratchett|Creator]] himself said of ''The Eyre Affair'': "Ingenious. I shall watch Jasper Fforde nervously."<br />
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* {{wp|Jasper_Fforde|Jasper Fforde}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}}==<br />
Fraser was cited by Terry Pratchett as one of five authors whose books he would buy immediately on publication. His best-known works are the ''Flashman'' series (the cowardly but lucky Harry Flashman has many points of similarity with Rincewind) and the [[Daft Wullie|''McAuslan'']] series (whose Gordon Highlanders are [[Book:The Wee Free Men/Annotations|Roundworld Nac Mac Feegle]].) Fraser's books are usually scrupulously accurate history with a few fictitious characters inserted, and include copious footnotes and endnotes.<br />
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While the accepted Discworld referent for Flashman is usually taken to be Rincewind, Flashman is also a bluff, genial, con-man whose whole life is predicated on persuading people to accept he is something he is not. He pulls some almightily audacious bluffs in his career, and on one occasion, his wholly reasonable tendency towards self-preservation (which could uncharitably be described as cowardice) is subverted by a chemical substance which his lover of the moment assures him is a nice relaxing tonic. This enables him to fight and lead a battle without any fear at all and in fact to avert a Russian invasion of India whilst British attention is focused on the Crimea. A similar thing happens to Moist von Lipwig in {{RS}}...<br />
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* {{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Neil Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}}==<br />
Co-author of {{GO}}, so an easy choice. Pratchett fans seem to prefer ''Neverwhere'' and ''American Gods''. One of the latest novels is ''Anansi Boys''. {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Gaiman}} is known for his ability to create fascinating pantheons - if you're at all interested in comics, the ''Sandman'' series (which rightfully catapulted Gaiman to the fame he enjoys today) is one of the best ever written. His perky-goth Death is the best anyone's ever done with the character after Pratchett.<br />
Terry himself says that his novel, ''Coraline'', "...has the delicate horror of the finest fairy tales, and is a masterpiece."<br />
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Neil was a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]].<br />
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Recommended by [[User:Sanity|Sanity]].<br />
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* {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Craig Shaw Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}}==<br />
''Ebenezum'' and ''Wuntvor'' series are quite humorous, though the latter tends to drag a bit.<br />
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* {{wp|Craig_Shaw_Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}}==<br />
Mary Gentle's masterwork ''Ash: A Secret History'' must be recommended here as one of those books that lingers in the mind and fires neurons into new and different arrangements. There is certainly humour here: most obviously in the Rabelaisian adventures of a mediaeval mercenary company, hiring itself out to the highest bidder and finding laughter where it can in, a mediaeval landscape straight out of ''Monty Python and the Holy Grail''. There is also a deeper, rather black, humour of a more satirical kind, as the book deals with deeper and more profound issues of time and history and the way we perceive the passage of both. There are two interleaved stories here: one deals with the adventures of the mercenary company of the Lion, commanded by the warrior-woman Ash. The second story takes place in our own time, and deals with a historian trying to make sense of the legend of Ash, who starts to discover that the historical certainties of the past are slipping and changing around him wherever he looks. There can only be ''one'' past, right? Dead wrong. His suspicions are confirmed when archaeologist colleagues start to unearth artefacts relating to a past that by all rights should never have happened, and which start to prove the established history books are utterly dead wrong. <br />
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History is changing. All the indications point to the trigger point being somewhere in the late 1400's and somehow, Ash the warrior captain is intimately involved. Something happened in or around the year 1476 to completely alter the course of history - and belatedly, the late 1990's are changing to conform to that time-rift. The sequence of events in the late 1400's very nearly destroyed the world and ''something'' moved to correct it, to rewrite history into the form in which we knew it. Until the history professor started looking into the life of Ash and pulling together the random shreds that remained, out of place and time, of that secret history...<br />
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As well as being a thrilling fantasy/sci-fi adventure, Ash is also a satire on the practice and teaching of history, which (as Vetinari and the History Monks know) is neither fixed nor objective. Indeed, it offers insight into how the History Monks might operate, were they to exist on Roundworld, to restitch time and history after, say, a Sourcerer or a Glass Clock nearly blew it into smithereens. It vividly describes what people might notice, what would be observed, during a time-slip of this nature, and what loose ends would be left flapping afterwards that not even a Lu-Tze could tidy away. It even suggests a mechanism, which has to do with pyramids, and suggests that some VERY strange things happened in the latter 1400's in known history that are strange and anomalous... <br />
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Did TP read this book before, say, writing {{TOT}}? Ash was published in 1999, ten years after TP wrote {{S}}, but definitely released before {{TOT}} (published 2001). It's a very tempting thought... oh, and there are golems in this book. Like and unlike to those of the Discworld. <br />
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In a far lighter vein, Mary Gentle has also written '''''Grunts!''''', an account of the Eternal War between Good and Evil, as seen through the jaundiced eyes of those expendable foot-soldiers of the dark and sword-fodder for Heroes, the Orcs. Both repulsive and oddly sympathetic at the same time, the Orcs discover a trans-dimensional dragon whose hoard includes an entire United States Marine Corps armoury. <br />
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Equipped with high-tech weapons, the Orcs then see about carving out a corner of the fantasy world they can call theirs.<br />
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As Mary Gentle, along with Neil Gaiman, is a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]] to whom an early Discworld novel is dedicated (the HPLHFC consists of members of the new wave of British sci-fi/fantasy authors), then it would appear reasonably certain that TP is aware of her books. There are fairly unmistakable references to '''''Grunts''''' in the pages of {{UA}}, which given the subject matter would be even more remarkable by their absence. <br />
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Much recommended! <br />
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Both books recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}}==<br />
Alan Gordon (born 1959) is the author of several mysteries, the first of which is based on the characters from William Shakespeare's '''''Twelfth Night'''''. He writes about jesters as advisers to the king, who actually make up a super-secret spy ring that try to keep peace and control the leaders of different countries. The Fool's Guild of these novels is portrayed as a mockery to the church, and they refer to Jesus Christ as "Their Saviour, the First Fool".<br />
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Alan Gordon began writing his novels about fools and jesters as a supra-national spy ring in 1999. This is exactly the same idea TP came up with a year or two earlier to explain the survival of the otherwise increasingly irrelevant Fools' and Clowns' Guild into the modern era - that the Guild's graduates go everywhere, end up in some very high places, and periodically report back to Doctor Whiteface. Making him both very rich and very powerful. <br />
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Is it possible AG got the basic idea for his seven Fools' Guild novels from Pratchett? I hope to track down at least one Alan Gordon novel today, read it, and report back here, as the similarities to Pratchett's Fools' Guild are just so obvious...<br />
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Just finished reading ''A Death in the Venetian Quarter'', about Byzantine plots in old Constantinople. The jokes are funnier - although in some places have a desperate Prachettian cod-mediaeval ring to them - the jesters, Fools and troubadours (ref ({{TLH}}) are happier and enjoy their vocation, and there is a Guild HQ which assigns both surface tasks (''"you are to proceed to Constantinople where you will be resident Fool to the Empress and the Princesses of the royal house of Byzantium"'') and hidden, clandestine, ones (''"while you are there you will assist and take a leading role in deposing the current Emperor, who is a drooling inbred dolt and not the man we need to keep out the Pope's crusaders on one side and the Turks on the other"'').<br />
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Fools serve both leaders in a war and can cross the lines freely to interchange information and updates, as well as acting as informal diplomats and heralds. This was apparently so in mediaeval times, as most people didn't take them seriously. (In Gordon's world, they also have useful Assassin skills, although outside the world of [[sloshi]], Lord Downey might have a demarcation issue with Doctor Whiteface.)<br />
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Reccomended!<br />
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* {{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Green|Michael Green}}==<br />
While perhaps a little bit dated now, Mike Green's series of comic "how-not-to-do-it" guides, dating from the 1950's and 1960's, are masterpieces of a certain sort of British humour. The ''Art of Coarse...'' books are based on the premise that only a precious few, a stellar minority, of us can ever be genuinely good and gifted at any given sporting or leisure pursuit. The rest of us... well, we are fated to be only Coarse practitioners, spear-carriers and extras in the theatre of life. Green illustrates this fact of essential glorious mediocrity over a series of books, dealing with topics as wide and varied as rugby football, sailing, golf, sex, and amateur dramatics. A Coarse Sailor is defined as one who, in extremis, forgets all nautical language, and shouts "For God's sake, turn left!" ''The Art of Coarse Acting'' develops the theme of am-dram in a manner that Vittoler's strolling players would recognise, and indeed there is a lengthy discourse on why Shakespeare's clowns and fools are so abjectly unfunny, ''however'' you say the lines. This may be familar to readers of Pratchett, although there is no certainty that he has read these books. I would not be surprised, though! A cast of recurring characters, including Green's totally loathsome friend Askew, help carry the stories, all drawn from his real-life experience. (Although Green was better at rugby than he claims - he turned out, if only once, for the Leicester first fifteen, which is akin to playing for a premiership soccer side.) The series was continued by Spike Jones, although his books are nowhere near as good as Green's. <br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Green|Michael Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Simon R. Green|Simon R. Green}}==<br />
For something a little darker, try the ''Nightside'' series by Simon R. Green. Imagine Neil Gaiman's ''Neverwhere'' tossed in a blender with the noir detective template and every bit of myth, fantasy and sci-fi you 've ever seen or read and you'll get the delicious smoothie that is Nightside. Set in a secret city-within-a-city at the heart of London, follow John Taylor, a hard-nose private-eye as he sorts out cases both horrifying and fantastic.<br />
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Green's definitely a name-dropper, and references tons of stories and myths, but his own characters and plots are original and fascinating, and utterly steeped in darkness. (Seriously... This guy's darker than Neil gets sometimes...) But it's all tied together with subtle English wit in the (almost obligatory to the noir genre) first-person narrative. (I've even heard a review with a favorable comparison to Terry, so there! Proof!) It's at least an M rating, but a heartily recommended read.<br />
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* {{wp|Simon_R._Green|Simon R. Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Harry Harrison|Harry Harrison}}==<br />
Prodigious author of science-fiction, ranging from potboilers through more "serious" exploratory sci-fi works and counterfactual histories, to out-and-out science-fiction humour. <br />
Anyone who perceived the slightly tongue-in-cheek aspect of '''''Strata''''' and '''''Dark Side of the Sun''''' will appreciate the parodic quality of Harrison's '''''Bill, the Galactic Hero''''' series of comic sci-fi novels. These send up every aspect of the classic gung-ho shoot 'em up space operas, in which, generally, American domestic paranoia about those goddamn Commies was projected out into space and time, and gave all-American heroes the chance to stand and fight for those good ol' fashioned values and Mom's apple pie. (Is it a matter of time before the space enemy starts to manifest recognisable aspects of Middle Eastern culture?)<br />
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Harrison's funniest sci-fi comedies by far, though, are the nine or ten books of the '''''Stainless Steel Rat''''' series. In a future that has largely eliminated crime, Jim diGriz is one of the last crooks left in the galaxy. While he is not averse to the occasional bank robbery, he prefers other, largely non-confrontational and consensual, methods of separating people from their money. He is principled and ethical enough to absolutely refuse to kill in the line of business, and has a ball as he travels the galaxy, bilking, bunco-ing, cheating and generally con-man-ning in a thousand inventive ways. But one day he comes a cropper and is offered the choice of (i) having his mind re-programmed to remove all criminal tendencies; or (ii) working on the side of the angels, as a member of the Galactic "Special Corps", an elite unit of part-detectives, part-policemen, part special agents. Choosing to accept his Angel, in the form of the Machiavellian Special corps Director Inskipp, diGriz bites the bullet and reluctantly becomes poacher-turned-gamekeeper. His first assignment is to track down and arrest the beautiful and deadly Angelina, a woman with serious anger management issues and strong criminal tendencies. He does this so well they end up married, and adopt the nicknames of "Slippery Jim" and "Spike" for each other. (Do the descriptions remind you of anyone in the Pratchett character list?) Later books chart a marriage made in larcenous heaven, and the birth of twin sons who take after Mum and Dad... <br />
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''The Stainless Steel Rat For President'' relates a tale of DiGriz and his family collaborating to fix the elections on a repressive planet ruled by a tyrant and dictator. The most rigged, bent and skewed election in the Universe then ensues, with both parties doing what they can to gerrymander, fix and fiddle the vote. A real lesson, as these things have all apparently been done in Roundworld elections... this was especially prescient of Harrison, as the electronic vote-counting machinery is rigged to the point of falling over. And this was written a ''long'' time before a certain business in Florida...<br />
Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Harry_Harrison|Harry Harrison}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Shea|Robert Shea}} and {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} (Honorary #23)==<br />
A cautionary note: Shea and Wilson are rightly famed, in alternative circles, for the '''''Illuminatus!''''' series of novels. The trilogy is a joyously anarchic and irreverent romp through the whole scope of the occult, politics, conspiracy theory, secret societies, not-so-secret societies, et c, and sends up many genres of writing including the police procedural, horror, fantasy, political polemic (Ayn Rand gets a kicking), et c. <br />
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The novice approaching ''Illuminatus!'' for the first time should not try to understand what's going on, as that way lieth doom. It's like trying to appreciate opera ''and'' understand the lyrics. On a first read, just see it as a series of loosely connected episodes but don't try too hard to comprehend the relationship between them. Just accept as a unifying theme that unless something is done to stop it, the Eschaton is about to be Immanetized (ie, the world is about to end in a manner loosely reminiscent of {{GO}}. Hell, there's even a [[Kraken|Leviathan]] as well as some unpretty denizens of Earth's [[Dungeon Dimensions]]). <br />
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You get characters like the cynical street policeman who's seen too much; the hippies who really ARE about to be made streetwise (man) whether they want to be or not; the occupants of a submarine (which for some reason is painted bright yellow), whose mission is to prevent a war starting -initially out of a dispute over ownership of a [[Leshp|small, hitherto unregarded, island]]; the arch-villain Putney Drake, who controls all crime in the USA but has decided he wants to find his angel and go straight; the arch-manipulator Hagbard Celine who saves the world but has an agenda all of his own; 0023, the secret agent Britain is not proud of, and who gets all the weird X-files-like assignments that Bond sneers at; and a cast of eldrich supernatural entities, who are partly or wholly not human. Oh, and there are lots of Justified, Illuminated and Elucidated secret societies, with their own passwords and doorway ritual, administered by Brother Gatekeepers... <br />
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(As an aside. Flawed criminal mastermind Putney ''Drake'', who controls all organised crime in the USA but still wants more. Compare to Eoin Colfer's Artemis ''Fowl''?) <br />
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James Joyce is referenced many times and indeed even enters the book as a character at one point. This has to be said, as the structure of the book owes something to Joyce, the episodes stepping in and out of linear time and causal order. Therefore it's not an easy book to read but it rewards time, attention and frequent re-reading. <br />
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It's also very, very, funny. <br />
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I can guarantee you will never see the Reverend Billy Graham in quite the same light again after the manner of his cameo appearance! (Indeed, if the book has any conventional political stance, it can be discerned by the way the Republican/Religious Right Middle-American world-view is remorselessly sent up).<br />
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Slipping in under the radar, and done with humour, is a lot of interesting philosophical stuff. For instance, what is the nature of money? (Ref. {{MM}}). We blithely refer to political affiliation as being left-wing, right-wing, anarchist, communist, et c, but what do these convenient labels ''really'' mean? Does the conspiracy theory or the cock-up theory govern human history, or a mixture of both, and at bottom is there really a difference? What is conspiracy theory? Do you have to be paranoid to believe it exists? Is there any validity to magic, occult, and psychic thought and practice? Can one Leader really exert a difference? What is the mystical all-importance of the number 23, and all its associations, like the letter "W"? Did the events of ''The Lord of the Rings'' really happen, making Tolkien not so much an author as an observer? <br />
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This trilogy is believed to have influenced Terry Pratchett - there are just too many allusions and associations in the Discworld books. Recommended!<br />
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Shea and Wilson went on to write a second trilogy, '''''The Universe Next Door''''', that develops Illuminatus themes and ideas while being true to the original. This deals a lot with quantum physics and the multiple-worlds model of the multiverse, whilst remaining extremely funny.<br />
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Possibly far more accessible as novels, while still being in the spirit of ''Illuminatus!'', are the books Shea and Wilson wrote solo: '''''The Historical Illuminatus''''' trilogy, by Wilson, charts the life of Neapolitan wunderkind Sigismundo Celine in the latter part of the eighteenth century. There's sound history, intriguing discussions on the origins of Freemasonry, the decline of Catholicism, the Occult underground in Europe, why revolutions happen (lilac may or may not be included), and the ''true'' nature of scholarly footnotes at the bottom of the page. (they're a separate rogue novel, a kind of parasitic literary form trying to break into the reality of the main text) A jolly good story with believable characters, not without humour. Sigismundo Celine even invents a theoretically working steam locomotive - but evidently Naples and Paris are not the right orchards for this idea to blossom into steam-engine time, as he is derided and laughed out of university, much to his chagrin. <br />
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Shea wrote a series of novels where the themes of Illuminatus! are further explored, where West met East in the mediaeval crusades and the western world suddenly became too small for old orthodoxies. (''All Things Are Lights'' and ''Saracen!''). In a second series, the underlying themes of ''Illuminatus!'' are seen through the eyes and experiences of a Zen warrior-monk, in what on the surface of things is nothing more than a rip-roaring adventure story set in mediaeval Japan and Kublai Khan's China. ( ''Shiké: Last of the Zinja'' and ''Shiké: Last of the Dragons'')<br />
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Sadly, both authors are now deceased, having left their respective solo works unfinished, and their central characters hanging in limbo. (Although Robert Shea has placed many of his writings on his website, including completed and partially completed novels, so that they may be accessed for free). But - worth reading! Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}}==<br />
Author of some very funny police procedurals, the Dalziel and Pascoe series (these have been adapted for TV), and the more humour-based adventures of Luton PI Joe Sixsmith. In an internet interview, Hill has identified Terry as one of his favourite authors. His novels are set in the real world, although there are occasional touches of the supernatural in the Dalziel and Pascoe books. Hill's stories can be odd (Jane Austen's ''Emma'' rewritten as a murder thriller, anyone?), but are always satisfying. A good place to start is probably the Dalziel and Pascoe book ''Dialogues of the Dead'' and its direct sequel ''Death's Jest-Book'', or the Joe Sixsmith novel ''The Roar of the Butterflies'', which pays tribute to P.G Wodehouse.<br />
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* {{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Holt|Tom Holt}}==<br />
Author of various parodies and stories based on mythology or other tales (sound familiar).<br />
First novel based on Wagner's ''Der Ring des Nibelungen'' is called ''Expecting Someone Taller''. Although most books are standalone, there is a series of sorts starting with ''The Portable Door'', which can arguably be termed a more adult and crankier Harry Potter in a cubicle farm.<br />
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Holt's books combine what might otherwise be called ''chick-lit'' from the male point of view - there is invariably a romance between a man and a woman who almost completely fail to communicate nor see the subtleties of the other gender's form of world-view - made even more complex by the intrusion of magic and the supernatural. The paradoxes of using magic are dealt with at great length, as are the staples of fantasy fiction and folklore. Old pantheons of Gods who nobody seriously believes in any more are shunted off to a ''very special'' old peoples' home on the south coast of England. They proceed to have ''Last of the Summer Wine'' style adventures involving lash-up machinery and half-remembered magical artefacts. ''You don't have to be evil to work here, but it helps'' develops the theme of Hell being a Human Resources department full of management bollocks-speak and continual assessments with Health and Safety Law making it impossible to go out and slay dragons. A very tall dwarf and a very short giant feature as characters...<br />
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* {{wp|Tom_Holt|Tom Holt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}}==<br />
To be more specific; for the non-British reader to better understand {{UA}} and the importance of football the autobiographical ''Fever Pitch'' is a must read. Written by a left-leaning intellectual well versed in feminist theory who to the amazement of his peers spent much of his formative years on Highbury's North Bank.<br />
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This specific recommendation by [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 20:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC), and backed by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC). It's a fantastically funny and searingly true book, but don't bother reading any of his others. Nanny Ogg's got a word for them. And it's not complimentary.<br />
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* {{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tanya Huff|Tanya Huff}}==<br />
The Keeper's Chronicles are a set of three (so far) books taking place in Canada, a sort of urban fantasy-comedy. More overt than Discworld but a lot of fun.<br />
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* {{wp|Tanya_Huff|Tanya Huff}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Barry Hughart|Barry Hughart}}==<br />
''Bridge of Birds'' - "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was."<br />
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Li Kao is a great scholar with a slight flaw in his character. His patron and servant, by turns, is Number Ten Ox, a peasant lad of unusual size and strength and more wit than anyone expects. The two engage in fantastic adventures in a version of Seventh-Century China unknown to historians. Annotators might find more amusement than even Pratchett provides (if they are serious students of Chinese history) trying to separate the research from the imagination.<br />
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The similarity between Li Kao and another wrinkly little old man with unusual powers will strike most Pratchett readers. Don't tell the British press; they'll be off to Arizona to pester Mr. Hughart for his reaction to the outrageous plagiarism (again.)<br />
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The series continues with ''Eight Skilled Gentlemen'' and ''The Story of the Stone'', but these are rare and expensive.<br />
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* {{wp|Barry_Hughart|Barry Hughart}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diana Wynne Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}}==<br />
The books are intended for a younger audience but I (and other Pratchett fans with the Tiffany Aching series) have often found so-called children's books to be extremely well written, often more so than their adult counterparts. One of the major themes in her books is the "multiverse" theory--explored in Pratchett as Quantum and [[Trousers of Time|The Trousers of Time]]. She has a fairly extensive bibliography; I would recommend starting with "Deep Secret" (written in a psuedo-epistolary style) or "Charmed Life" (in The Chronicles of Chrestomanci, Vol 1). "Charmed Life" has a more Tiffany Aching-esque feel to it. --[[User:Anatwork|Anatwork]] 05:27, 2 April 2007 (CEST).<br />
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Diana Wynne Jones's ''The Tough Guide to Fantasyland'' is recommended by Terry, and includes many Discworld themes, such as swords, lost heirs, and Cities of Wizards. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 14:55, 7 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Diana_Wynne_Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stuart M. Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}}==<br />
This Russian-American author wrote a series of police procedurals with a difference. Set in the Soviet Union in the 1980's, Inspector Rostnikov is a veteran policeman in the Moscow criminal investigation force. A decent and honest copper who strives very hard to stay out of politics and just do the job that's in front of him, he contends with the everyday criminality of Moscow and fending off his out-of-touch superiors whose priorities are not his and who view his efficiency as a copper with deep suspicion. Rostnikov does not believe in the approved Leninist-Marxist doctrine that criminality in the Soviet state is perpetrated by a rump of degenerate anti-social elements, who will wither away as the Revolution triumphs and there is thus no more need for crime. He's a copper. He knows there will always be crime regardless of whose social philosophy runs the State. He just gets on with it, alongside a department of underfunded, under-resourced, coppers whose attitudes range form resigned cynicism through open-eyed idealism to a sort of robotic, golem-like obedience to the State. Indeed, his most trusted colleagues are the enthusiastic youngster Sasha and the robotic Party loyalist Karpo. The collapsing years of the Soviet Union act as the backdrop to the stories, a situation where hardly anyone truly believes in communism any more, the old political truths are repated almost as a comforting mantra, everyone can see the corruption and collapse going on all around them, but nobody, apart from political dissidents, dares to say so outright. Unfortunately the police chief known as The Wolfhound is a True Believer, and behind him is the wider KGB/MVD apparatus to which the civil police is accountable. The smoke and mirrors of the USSR's last years and the trials of routine policing in this atmosphere are drawn with a great deal of black humour. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 10:24, 19 November 2016 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Stuart_M_Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Fritz Leiber|Fritz Leiber}}==<br />
Classic sword & sorcery, but very often kind of tongue-in-cheek. TP has admitted that his early Discworld books, which can be seen as a parody of the S&S genre, were heavily inspired by Leiber's series about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. --[[User:Havelock|Havelock]] 02:20, 1 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
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In fact, the principal city of the ''Fafhrd and Gray Mouser'' stories is named "Lankhmar", which is very similar to that of [[Ankh-Morpork]], and seems to share its social complexity.<br />
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Leiber Fritz Leiber] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}}==<br />
Stanislaw Lem is a Polish writer of science fiction, some of which is very funny and whimsical. He has been lucky with English translations that capture the spirit of the original, and try to keep up with the word play. '''''[[Wikipedia:The_Cyberiad|Cyberiad]]''''' is a great place to start; it's a series of stories about the robot inventors Trurl and Klapaucius. Great illustrations by Daniel Mróz, too! Oh, and if you saw the George Clooney film version of Lem's great novel Solaris and that turned you off, just ignore it: see the original Russian film version instead.<br />
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* {{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Roy Lewis|Roy Lewis}}==<br />
Another suggestion from Terry Pratchett himself: he brought '''''The Evolution Man''''' to a British television show-and-tell as a book he wished he'd written. He said he'd read it in 1961 when it was nearly new and the influence on the thirteen-year-old writer is apparent.<BR><br />
The book describes a family of "ape-men" who are responsible for most of the social and technological development of the paleolithic era over one generation, somewhat like {{wp|Jean_Auel|Jean Auel's}} Cro-Magnons in ''Clan of the Cave Bear'' but lots funnier. It has also been published as ''What We Did to Father'' and ''Once Upon an Ice Age''. Recently republished in the US by Vintage Books.<br />
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* {{wp|Roy_Lewis|Roy Lewis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Dan McGirt|Dan McGirt}}==<br />
{{wp|Jason_Cosmo|Jason Comso}} series, a tongue-in-cheek approach to swords and sorcery.<br />
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* {{wp|Dan_McGirt|Dan McGirt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}}==<br />
Another author spoofed by Terry Pratchett ({{COM}}, {{E}}) and worth reading in his own right. <br />
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Known in his early writing years for prolific production of potboilers - the Elric series are well worth reading as "straight", if high-camp, fantasy fiction and provide a lot of background detail, as to where some of the jokes in the earliest Discworld novels originate. <br />
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Moorcock has tried his hand at farce and comic writing in the Pratchett mould: a novel called '''''The Chinese Agent''''', about a chaotic collision and an escalating series of misunderstandings between the world's secret services operating in London, is laugh-out-loud funny reading, with echoes of {{GO}}. <br />
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Similarly, there is a short story called ''The Stone Thing (A Tale of Strange Parts)'' in the anthology '''''The Flying Sorcerers''''' (Souvenir Press, 1997) where Moorcock attempts to take the mickey out of his own portentous high-camp style of writing, before anyone else does.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST). This anthology also features a Terry Pratchett short story called '''''Turntables of the Night'''''. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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Also worth reading is the Von Bek series, beginning with ''The Warhound and the World's Pain'', and the Dancers at the End of Time series, which begins with ''An Alien Heat'', and is full of Oscar Wilde-esque humour. Both of these series are available in omnibus editions.<br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Christopher Moore|Christopher Moore}}==<br />
Hilariously funny novels, which while not exactly fantasy or science fiction have elements of both. Vampires, demons, cargo cults. Death turns up as well, although it's more of a Tooth Fairy-esque franchise than a single anthropomorphic personification. It's probably best to read them in publication order, as recurring characters develop over the novels. Start with ''{{wp|Practical_Demonkeeping|Practical Demonkeeping}}'', for an introduction to the barely sane inhabitants of Pine Cove.<br />
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* {{wp|Christopher_Moore_%28author%29|Christopher Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|John Moore|John Moore}}==<br />
Small but sweet novels set in a sort of alternate, anachronistic fairy-tale past. Humorous fantasy but with a definite American touch (a la Shrek). Whimsical, but with serious undertones.<br />
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* {{wp|John Moore (American author)|John Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}}==<br />
A founder member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]], Kim wrote '''Anno Dracula''', the definitive "what if..." book, starting from the utter failure of van Helsing and his well-intended dreamers to destroy Count Dracula. This irritating little diversion dealt with, Dracula then resumes his trip to England, and introduces himself at Court as a member of very long-standing Rumanian royal dynasty. Which is true, to a given value of true. Queen Victoria then invites her relative - well, he's European royalty, he ''must'' be related - to come and stay at Buck House, or Sandringham, maybe Balmoral, or the one on the Isle of Wight. Having been invited into the palace, Dracula, like a certain vampire noble in {{CJ}}, stays. And stays. And takes over England. And by extension the British Empire. (Does this sound like a certain Pratchett book yet?). He even marries the royal widow and becomes King-Emperor. Then invites the family over from Transylvania. The idea if a vampire dynasty ruling Britain, the degree of acceptance/rebellion it engenders, and how Dracula dealt with threats to British world rule, is continued in the following novels of the trilogy. .--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]]<br />
* {{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Naomi Novik|Naomi Novik}}==<br />
A fantasy dragon-story, set in the original 17th century Roundworld! The story isn't as funny as a Discworld novel, but Temeraire's dialogue (the dragon in question) can be very tongue-in-cheek! Could be a bit girlish book, but then again, you can very well be one! .--[[User:Charlie007|Charlie007]]<br />
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* {{wp|Naomi_Novik|Naomi Novik}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Pat O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}}==<br />
Although her book {{wp|The_Hounds_of_the_Morrigan|'''''The Hounds of the Morrigan'''''}} is aimed at children, like the best children's writers she creates a world which may also be inhabited by adults without their losing face. Set in West Galway, two children come to realise that despite St Patrick's best efforts, the old Irish gods and goddesses never went away. They just went ''over there a wee bit''. <br />
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The return of the Old Gods to modern (1970's?) Ireland has its threat: the Goddess who has awoken is the old and evil Morrigan, the triple-goddess of death and chaos and nightmare. She must be stopped...<br />
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O'Shea blends the ancient tales into a modern Irish landscape with deftness and humour. The children enter the ''other'' Ireland of myth and fable, and while at its worst the humour takes on a Disney-Oirish cuteness, the colour and texture of the book slowly darken into a mythological landscape Neil Gaiman would be proud of (not without humour). Recommended. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:15, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Pat_O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}}==<br />
Have you ever wondered about the description of Lancre Castle, in the early pages of {{WS}}, as ''having been designed by an architect who'd heard about Ghormenghast, but had done the best he can despite having neither the budget nor the space?'' Or about the description of the way time and space do weird things in the precincts of Unseen University, with the effect that ''it makes Ghormenghast look like a toolshed on a railway allotment?''<br />
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Well, Peake is the source: his contribution to the fantasy fiction ouevre is the magnificent and thick-as-several-bricks ''Ghormenghast'' trilogy, a beautifully written account of life in a massive, rambling, castle-cum-city-cum-palace which has, er, accumulated over the course of several thousand years, with every new generation adding further bits to it as they see fit. Therefore it rambles a bit, like the most eccentric English stately home, and entire rooms, floors, even wings, have been lost over the centuries. <br />
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Peake richly describes the settings and populates the Castle with a civilization of grotesques, of whom the sanest and most sympathetic is possibly the good Doctor Prunesquallor, a man who like Cosmo Lavish is burdened with a dificult and sometimes embarrassing sister. <br />
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The social system is a suffocating heirarchy where a royal family rules at the top, and everyone else is born into a rigid caste system where even their very jobs are mapped out for them at birth. There is no way to change one's preordained social status, and until the advent of a rebellious kitchen scullion named Steerpike, nobody attempts to. At first a hero deserving sympathy, Steerpike climbs literally and metaphorically out of the depths of the castle kitchens and begins a calculated advance to the very top. His character subtly changes as his ambition grows, and it is clear he is seeking to depose the ruling family. After several murders, the former hero has become a monster: he is indirectly responsible for the death of the heroine Fuchsia, whose brother, Titus Groan, heir to Ghormenghast, resolves to destroy him. <br />
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A magnificent piece of fantasy and "baroque humour", a must-read for anyone into fantasy fiction, and another source of ideas and in-jokes for TP! ({{P}} is thought to be heavily influenced by Peake's characters. See [[Book:Pyramids/Annotations|here]]).<br />
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'''January 2010''': Breaking news. A fourth '''Gormenghast''' novel, started by Peake and finished, at least in draft outline, by his widow, has been discovered among a batch of the late author's papers. There is a possibility that it will see print by 2011. More here:- [http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/15/gormenghast-sequel-mervyn-peake-widow?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+theguardian%2Fbooks%2Frss+(Books)|More_here]. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 02:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Douglas Adams|Douglas Adams}} (Honorary #42)==<br />
English comic author sometimes compared to Terry Pratchett, most famous for his ''Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' series, who passed away in May 2001.<br />
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He developed a Pratchett-like idea in his novel ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Tea-Time_of_the_Soul The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul]'' (1988), where idiosyncratic private investigator Dirk Gently has to investigate a case involving the survival of the old Norse gods into the present day, and the nature of the dark pact they have to enter into to ensure their continued existence. This book echoes the Pratchett theme that a god may only survive so long as belief persists, and that there is no thing sadder than a god still doggedly hanging on after the need for him (or her) has ended.<br />
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The book also develops the concept of Thor (who is also encountered in ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_the_Universe_and_Everything Life, the Universe, and Everything]'' (1982) as an otherwise unnamed Thunder God trying to pull Trillian at a party, and being outwitted by Arthur Dent) as an over-muscled and somewhat thick god with exaggerated body language.<br />
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Some concepts are shared by Pratchett and Adams in their respective science-fiction work, most notably a debunking of the utopian ''Star Trek'' ideal that greater technological sophistication confers greater wisdom and a pacifistic world-view. <br />
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It can justly be said that Arthur Dent and [[Twoflower]] share a common characteristic: both are ignorant wanderers in a strange and foreign world, but the difference is that Arthur Dent is painfully and continually aware of how dangerous it all is, and of how much the settled inhabitants view him with condescending derision. (''Hey, monkeyman''!) Twoflower is blissfully unaware of the dangers and ambles unconcernedly through life. While it is true Arthur Dent does not have [[the Luggage]] to defend him, he is equipped with the Babel Fish (the equivalent is [[Rincewind]]'s ear for language) together with the resources embodied in Ford Prefect. Is Rincewind a parallel of Ford Prefect? Well, both have a vested interest in cheating death and running away from potential trouble by any means available. Just as Rincewind is constrained by the [[Patrician]]'s expressed wish to keep Twoflower alive and well, Ford must keep Arthur alive, as the last living being from planet Earth who may know the Question to the Answer. In both cases, a genuine friendship (of sorts) exists. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST) Seen otherwise, Arthur Dent shares some of ''Rincewind'''s view that he will be flung into a bad situation ''no matter what''.<br />
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* [http://www.douglasadams.com/ The official Douglas Adams website]<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams Douglas Adams] on Wikipedia<br />
* [http://h2g2.com/ h2g2] - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy<br />
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=={{wp|Philip Pullman|Philip Pullman}}==<br />
An obvious choice, perhaps, but if you're looking for the fantastic and not just the hilarious, ''{{wp|His_Dark_Materials|His Dark Materials}}'' is a fabulous trilogy. It's probably the best fantasy since Tolkien. Terry Brooks, {{wp|Dragonlance|Weis and Hickman}}, {{wp|The_Dark_Is_Rising|Susan Cooper}} have all been and gone; JK Rowling's had a good go, but this is by far the best written of all of them. I know it's just become a film, but read the books first. The metaphysics is cool too. The idea of multiple worlds and realities (parallel universes?) could have come from [[Ponder Stibbons]] himself... --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 14:05, 23 December 2007 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Philip_Pullman|Philip Pullman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Rankin|Robert Rankin}}==<br />
Much kookier than Pratchett, Rankin has a love affair with running gags and breaking down the fourth wall, has a style that seesaws between grandiose and I'll-break-yer-teeth, and his books generally involve small British towns and aliens, Hell, Elvis, time travel, or all of them at once. Described as "stark raving genius". His most recent book, ''The Educated Ape'', has a chimpanzee for its lead character who is oddly reminiscent of a certain orang-utan, thwarting misdeeds in a Victorian Steampunk London assisted by scientists, assassins, and wizards. Hmm. <br />
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* {{wp|Robert_Rankin|Robert Rankin}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}}==<br />
A cartoonist, who created the St Trinians schoolgirls, as well as the Molesworth stories (in fact written by Geoffrey Willians) and several other books, like an illustrated adaption of Gilbert and Sullivan's work for print ''Dick Dead Eye''.<br />
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* {{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}} on Wikipedia; {{wp|Geoffrey Willians|Geoffrey Willians}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}}==<br />
Mostly set in mid to late 20th century England, Tom Sharpe's novels range from smile-inducing to gut-wrenchingly funny on my personal humour scale, with "Ancestral Vices", "Porterhouse Blue" and "Blott on the Landscape" being the most relentlessly funny, to my mind. He holds no subject sacred, and his humour is much more brutal than, say, P. G. Wodehouse's or Terry's, but if you can stomach the wholesale and ruthless slaughter of sacred cattle and a certain amount of crudity, he can be a very funny author indeed. Common themes are weak-willed men, ferocious women, sexual perversions, incompetent academics and eccentric peers. The ''Wilt'' series deals with higher academia and the wranglings of an out-of-touch academic bureaucracy, concerned more with prestige and power than the delivery of education. The ''Piemburg'' farces are set in apartheid South Africa and centre on an inept and incompetent police force, which comes over as the City Watch shorn of its redeeming graces - it even has its own Findthee Swing and a dedicated "Cable Street Particulars" of the old sort. Secret policeman Liutnant Verkramp is obsessed with measuring and calibrating to assess the precise degree of black African corruption in the white race and has his own interesting character tics; the unspeakable Konstabel Els, a man who views being in the police force as a licence to get away with lots of crime, is a monster all on his own who loves very large powerful weapons - and their frequent satisfying use. <br />
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* {{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jonathan Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}}==<br />
Author of the Bartimaeus Trilogy. These books are very witty with a superb use of footnotes. Told from the point of view of a wisecracking demon summoned by British magicians.<br />
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* {{wp|Jonathan_Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}}==<br />
The father of modern science fiction and sometime writer of wonderful fantasy short stories. He is often mentioned for his apparent prediction of the DNA molecule in his novella, ''The Golden Helix'' .<br />
Sturgeon was the kind of professional writer, like TP, who could knock off an assignment from elsewhere with imagination and force (e.g. {{wp|I, Libertine|''I, Libertine''}}), and he has similarly been accused of literature.<BR><br />
Look for {{wp|More Than Human|''More Than Human''}}, {{wp|The Dreaming Jewels|''The Dreaming Jewels''}} (aka The Synthetic Man), {{wp|Without Sorcery|''Without Sorcery''}}, ''E. Pluribus Unicorn'', ''Caviar'', but any collection you stumble across will contain a gem or two.<br />
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* {{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}}==<br />
Like Edward Conlon above, Wambaugh is an ex-beat cop turned novelist. His first novel '''the New Centurions''' was written in 1971 whilst still a serving cop, and followed a group of misfits from police academy into their first probationary year on the beat on Los Angeles streets. A theme of New Centurions is the gradual build-up to a city-wide riot beginning in its equivalent of [[The Shades]] that put Los Angeles on the world map for all the wrong reasons. His fledgling cops have to deal with this as best they can - think {{MAA}} here. (In real life, the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots|the Watts Riot] of 1965). The work for which he is most famous, '''The Choirboys''', employs the same combination of black humour and gritty realism, and is known to have influenced Terry Pratchett in creating the Ankh-Morpork City Watch. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:36, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}}==<br />
The ''Dragonlance'' series of books are quite possibly the best all-out quintessential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien. A normal premise (a relatively unassuming band of friends &ndash; who happen to be a warrior, a wizard, a knight, a half-elf, an elven princess, a hobbit-like creature, a dwarf and so on) become involved in a quest, and end up saving the world. Kitsch as that sounds, the story is genuinely enthralling and the first series spawned a massive TLR push, and there are now in excess of 50 books, Dungeons & Dragons-style RPGs &c all based on them. Go read - the first three (''Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning'') are wonderful. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:21, 15 August 2007 (CEST)<br />
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The {{wp|Darksword|''Darksword''}} trilogy and the {{wp|Rose_of_the_Prophet|''Rose of the Prophet''}} trilogy are well worth reading, too. They are a lot more original than any of the ''Dragonlance'' books. The seven {{wp|The_Deathgate_Cycle|''Deathgate''}} books are well written, too.<br />
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* {{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}}==<br />
Wodehouse's stories feature light humor, similar to Pterry's earlier works. Flashes of Wodehouse whimsy appear regularly and young Pratchett heroes like [[Moist von Lipwig]] resemble PGW's ''Psmith''. Willikins the butler, of course, comes in a straight line from the famous ''Jeeves''. There are a number of direct references, including, in *Hogfather* a suggestion that the Hogfather's pigs be urged on with the cry "Pighoo--ooey!" an echo of a Wodehouse story by the same name. <br />
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Also like Wodehouse is the development of several distinct groups of stories with their own casts and localities. The Blandings books are set at Blandings Castle and usually have to with the Earl of Emsworth's obsession with his pig; the Mulliner Stories are set in the Angler's Rest and are increasingly tall tales about Mr. Mulliner's relatives; the Drones Club is set in London among a set of truly hapless, albeit wealthy young men.<br />
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The turn of phrase is very similar: Neil Gaiman has pointed out that he, PTerry, Douglas Adams, and Jasper Fforde can all do it. Pratchett goes into darker territory: the most threatening figures in Wodehouse are aunts. But it can be argued that both Wodehouse and Pratchett present a view of the world that is ultimately accepting and tolerant.<br />
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* {{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Patricia C. Wrede |Patricia C. Wrede }}==<br />
Humorous fantasy in a Candide-like style (very short chapters with very long titles). Her {{wp|Enchanted Forest Chronicles|''Enchanted Forest Chronicles''}} explore what happens to a beautiful 16-year-old princess who does not WANT to get married to a handsome prince. Ostensibly written for children, it has a ''Harry Potter''-like style that can be enjoyed by adults (and was written ''way'' before ''Harry Potter'', btw!). [[User:Kellyterryjones|Kellyterryjones]] 00:47, 24 December 2007 (CET) She has also written a series of fantasy books set in an alternate frontier America. [[User:Tiffany_Aching|Tiffany_Aching]] 10:43, 17 July 2014<br />
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Wrede Patricia C. Wrede] on Wikipedia<br />
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[[Category:Reading suggestions]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Reading_suggestions&diff=27865Reading suggestions2017-08-27T20:19:42Z<p>AgProv: /* {{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}} */</p>
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<div>A question that regularly pops up is: ''I'm enjoying Pratchett, what other books are there I could possibly enjoy?''. This page is here to help you. If you like Pratchett, these books are recommended by the fans.<br />
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*For the more graphically-oriented, see also [[Webcomic and Graphic Novel Suggestions]].<br />
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=={{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}}==<br />
A former scriptwriter for ''Doctor Who'', Ben has branched out into writing the ''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_London_(novel)| Rivers of London]'' fantasy series. (Retitled ''Midnight Riot'' in the USA). Peter Grant is a newly-graduated police constable in London. He is less than enchanted to be assigned to a department dealing with records and data-entry, and feels being labelled as a uniformed admin clerk has killed his police career before it has even begun. Then he meets Inspector Nightingale, who he discovers runs a department that the Met reluctantly accepts it has to have, but is less than generally thrilled to admit to and which it regards as an anachronistic embarrassment in this day and age. Grant finds himself re-assigned to The Folly. And becomes a policeman walking a really weird beat - dealing with things of magic, folklore and more-than-myth which are still there in London and need to be policed. He discovers in a city with two thousand years of history, some things are inevitable, and come with the turf. He becomes an apprentice wizard and learns magic is still there. And magical crime needs magical policemen. The higher echelons of the Met and British government are resigned to this and accept there needs to be such a Force. Peter's adventures in the magical underbelly of London are described with black humour and a lot of absurd moments. <br />
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Just to make it clear where he gets his inspiration from, Ben dedicates at least one of the books to Sir Terry Pratchett.<br />
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* {{wp|Ben Aaronovitch|Ben Aaronovitch}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Piers Anthony|Piers Anthony}}==<br />
{{wp|Xanth|Xanth}} series. Xanth is a very punny fantasy world. Piers Anthony also writes the "Terry Pratchett is fast, funny, and going places. Try him!" blurb found on many of Terry's books.<br />
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Xanth is probably best thought of as the ''Chronicles of Narnia'' played as a ''Carry On'' film. <br />
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I personally have found Anthony more corny than funny, with a very robotic, formulaic, writing style and a very dirty mind, even for purported "kids'" books. The humor is far sillier and more lowbrow. -[[User:Cidolfas|Cidolfas]]<br />
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Piers Anthony's other series (eg, {{wp|Incarnations_of_Immortality|''Incarnations of Immortality''}} and {{wp|Apprentice_Adept|''Apprentice Adept''}}) are not humorous, and are not similar to Terry's works. At best, the ''Incarnations'' series revolves around the idea that anthropomorphic personalities may "retire" from their jobs and return to the real world as they choose, and may select and train a successor. Anthony's Fate, for instance, takes it a step further and plays with the idea that this anthropomorphic personality might well run down a family dynasty, the female members of which each adopt one of the three faces of the classic Greek Fate. Death, in Anthony's world, is not so much a person as a job description. But this is only superficially similar to Death and Time each being a family business on the Discworld. <br />
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"I tried reading ''A Spell for Chameleon'' back in 1986 and threw it across the room after three chapters. I tried again in 2007 and lasted for five chapters. Just can't do it". This illustrates the idea that Xanth, while a tour-de-farce of the imagination, can in some readers evoke a reaction similar to that of Susan Sto Helit when she contemplates dancing across the rooftops with a cheeky cheery chimney sweep. Susan would see nothing wrong in a spoonful of sugar, but gallons of cloying syrup might well provoke a vomiting reflex. Xanth, with its heavy archness, is best approached when in a mood of whimsy and minimal critical function. In this frame of mind, it is not unpleasant, but too much syrup can kill tastebuds. The concept of the Adult Secret involves a perceived Adult Conspiracy to keep children in the dark about sexual matters for as long as possible.<br />
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Re-reading Piers Anthony lately - not just Xanth but more mainline novels - I also felt v. uneasy about Piers A's occasional lapses into fascination with the physical development of pubescent girls. In one of the ''Incarnations'' books, for instance, he has an eleven year old girl strip naked while an older relative has a private inner reverie about the attractive shape of her body. It isn't pornographic, and the plot that calls for it isn't too contrived, but it's written in enough loving detail to make me feel uneasy and voyeuristic about reading it. And this isn't exactly an isolated occurrence in his books, ref. an interest in pre-teen girls...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 11:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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As a forensic psychologist, I'm writing further to what AgProv has written on the Piers Anthony sexual storyline with the 11 year old child. Frankly, Anthony's writing verges on unlawful pedophilia writings and I am amazed that a mainstream publisher would actually give credence to Anthony's perverted and sick fantasies involving children that are truly DISTURBING. He is like a dirty old man leering over a legal minor in the kind of graphic and sick sexual detail that makes my hair stand on end. Let's be clear - this kind of pedophilia-type "prose" would be condemned almost anywhere, if it wasn't dressed up as 'literature'. Piers Anthony is way out of the league of Terry Pratchett, and shouldn't even be compared. He is not even a poor imitation. I would welcome what others have to say, but for me, Xanth far from being a Chronicles of Narnia, is a poorly-written tripe. What bothers me most is how Piers Anthony writes such plainly disturbing pedophilia sexual accounts involving a minor, which is typical pedophile behavior both pre- and post-action. This should be wholeheartedly condemned by all responsible adults... --[[User:Jongerman|Jongerman]] 09:11, 29 January 2011 (EST)<br />
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Further details about PA's approach to sexual content ''[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAppeal here]''. No editorialising, judge for yourself. <br />
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And while the purpose of this entry isn't to try the man, but to point out he HAS written some eminently readable sci-fi and fantasy ('''''Prosthro Plus'''''. about an Earth dentist abducted into Space and having to get up to speed with alien oral hygiene ''very quickly'', is hilarious and recommended), it is perhaps germane to consider a "quest" book Anthony wrote in the Xanth series. It becomes of extreme importance for the questing party to get a true answer to a mystery which gives the novel its name - '''''The Color of Her Panties'''''. In which female knickers pertaining to younger ladies are discussed and described at length. - --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 19:59, 12 May 2011 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Piers_Anthony|Piers Anthony}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kelley Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}}==<br />
Author of a series of books concerning how members of magical and Undead races have had to "go underground" to survive in the modern USA. '''''"Men of the Otherworld"''''' is about a young Werewolf growing up in his Pack and learning how to behave so as to fit into human society. He is taught who he can eat, when he can eat them, about Pack dynamics and politics, and how not to stand out at school (eating the class guinea pig is a great big no-no).<br />
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In '''''"No Humans Involved"''''', the location is a Haunted House TV show. In the UK these are shot in green light in an allegedly haunted house while it is cooling from the day in the wee small hours of the morning. Therefore there are a lot of creaks and drips for an ex-childrens' TV presenter and a camp scouse "psychic" to get excited about. <br />
In Kelley Armstrong's USA, what happens when a ''real'' psychic, in fact a trained and hereditary Necromancer, joins the presenting team on such a show...<br />
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Horror done with wicked humour. She has also written the ''Nadia Stafford'' trilogy: about a woman who has the skills, resolve, and methodical ability to plan and avoid ''over-confidence'' that makes her into somebody who could walk into the Guild of Assassins and be instantly welcomed as part of the Sorority. <br />
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Reccomendation by --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Kelley_Armstrong|Kelley Armstrong}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Asprin|Robert Asprin}}==<br />
Author of the hilarious {{wp|Mythadventures|''Mythadventures''}} series of novels, featuring a young magician, his pet dragon, a tough-but-lovable demon friend, a sexy trollop assassin, her hairy troll brother, a couple of mafia hitmen, a moll, and more.<br />
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* {{wp|Robert_Asprin|Robert Asprin}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Josef Assad|Josef Assad}}==<br />
Released his first novel [http://www.archive.org/details/JosefAssad_TheBanjoPlayersMustDie ''The Banjo Players Must Die''] under a free Creative Commons license. Reading like a misanthropic Terry Pratchett, it is a dystopian and self-referential history of how Judgment Day came about, for very small values of 'came about'.<br />
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* {{wp|Josef_Assad|Josef Assad}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Clive Barker|Clive Barker}}==<br />
Clive Barker is a fantasy writer known for painting amazing watercolors to accompany his writing. Some of his works include the award winning series '''[[Wikipedia:Abarat|Abarat]]''', '''[[Wikipedia:Imajica|Imajica]]''' and '''The Damnation Game'''. The book ''Abarat'' and its sequels tell the story of Candy Quakenbush, a teenage girl who gets pulled into a strange archipelago called The Abarat. The Abarat consists of twenty five islands, each one a different hour of the day, and one island that is time out of time. The series centers around the conflict between the islands of day and the islands of night. While ''Abarat'' and other books by Clive Barker are not a funny as Pratchett's they more then make up for it in oddness and the insanity of the worlds and characters.<br />
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* {{wp|Clive_Barker|Clive Barker}} on Wikipedia<br />
* Clive Barker's website: [http://www.clivebarker.info/]<br />
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=={{wp|James Bibby|James Bibby}}==<br />
The author of ''Ronan the Barbarian'' and its two sequels, all of which fit perfectly in the genre of comic fantasy. Much like Pratchett's earlier novels (although admittedly, much more ''adult''-oriented), the novel plays on the clichéd fantasy genre, but also includes genuinely interesting and likable characters. The book may be hard to find -- as it was only published in 1995, and once more in 1996 -- but definitely worth the trouble, being close-to the funniest author I've had the pleasure of reading. - [[User:Quoth|Quoth]]<br />
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* {{wp|James_Bibby|James Bibby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Susanna Clarke|Susanna Clarke}}==<br />
The author(ess?) of ''Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell''. This is an enormous book, written as an alternate history set in 19th-century England around the time of the Napoleonic Wars. It is based on the premise that magic once existed in England and has returned with two men: Gilbert Norrell and Jonathan Strange. Centering on the relationship between these two men, the novel investigates the nature of "Englishness" and the boundary between reason and madness. It has been described as a fantasy novel, an alternate history, and an historical novel. The narrative draws on various Romantic literary traditions, such as the comedy of manners, the Gothic tale, and the Byronic hero. The novel's language is a pastiche of 19th-century writing styles, such as those of Jane Austen and Charles Dickens. Clarke describes the supernatural with mundane details. Neil Gaiman, no less, described it as "unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the last 70 years". Look it up on Wikipedia - the way Bloomsbury pushed its publication is jaw-dropping - and even more so when you know it was her first novel! Recommended by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Susanna_Clarke|Susanna Clarke}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}}==<br />
The author of the novel {{wp|Ready Player One|''Ready Player One''}}. A story set in a dystopia future that is so bleak that humanity collectively lives through the OASIS, a full immersion computer game, where the games creator has left his huge fortune to whoever can find his hidden 'Easter Egg.' A great novel for fans of sci-fi and humour similar to Terry Pratchett, he's even mentioned a couple of times. Recommended by [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] 17:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC).<br />
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*{{wp|Ernest_Cline|Ernest Cline}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Eoin Colfer|Eoin Colfer}}==<br />
Eoin (pronounced "Owen") Colfer has come up with another world not too dissimilar to ours, but this time it's our world as we know it interfacing with the world of the Lower Elements: fairies, trolls (even thicker than TP's!), goblins, dwarves and the like. It even has a reason why the word Leprechaun exists: it comes from LEP Recon &ndash; the reconnaissance and recovery side of the Lower Elements Police. They are nominally childrens' books, but none the worse for that. So, essentially, is ''The Hobbit'' (see also comments for Diana Wynne Jones). The books centre around one "Artemis Fowl" - a twelve-year-old criminal mastermind. Swallow that, and the books are delightful. There is a large dollop of Pratchett-esque humour: witness why dwarves are such good diggers!!!! --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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'''Breaking News:''' Eoin Colfer has been selected to complete a largely unstarted sixth volume of [[Douglas Adams]]' h2g2 series:-<br />
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/sep/17/douglasadams] The resultant book has now been released under the title of '''''And Another Thing....''''' I'm reading it. It's good! --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC).<br />
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He's pretty darn good. And the Artemis Fowl timeline is essentially a budget version of the Disc's: as convoluted as you can make it in seven books. --[[User:Dragon4|Dragon4]] ([[User talk:Dragon4|talk]]) 21:16, 13 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
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* {{wp|Eoin_Colfer|Eoin Colfer}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}}==<br />
Written in 2004, Conlon's autobiography '''Blue Blood''' came too late for it to have directly influenced most of the Watch books. Conlon is the third generation of his family to have served in the New York Police Department, following his grandfather and father. In 560 pages, he relates many accounts of the events likely to happen to an NYPD patrolman in the course of his duties. These can be horrifying, amusing, or just plain weird by turns. Many of them, such as the possibly rabid domestic cat that could make [[Greebo]] look like a placid neuteree, could have been scripted for the Watch to deal with. The everyday frustrations of police work, such as the bureaucracy, the chore of report-writing, political interference from above, and the personality types of his fellow cops, could all be background for a Watch novel. Among many other little details of police life, conlon also has an interesting take on the whole grey area between legitimate "perks" and outright bribe-taking. He also describes his grandfather with love and affection, a beat cop who Fred Colon would have hailed as a long-lost brother. Conlon does for the NYPD what Joseph Wambaugh (a known influence on the Watch) does for the LAPD on the other coast. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Edward Conlon|Edward Conlon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}}==<br />
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Author of a very funny and at the same time extremely erudite series set in the Ancient Rome of Vespasian, about an informer (something like a private detective) by the name of Marcus Didius Falco, an Aventine guttersnipe who, having fallen in love with a senator's daughter, the spirited, independent-minded Helena, sets out to better himself socially and financially. Ms Davis takes a light-and-dark, and entertainingly cynical, approach to the seedy realities of day-to-day life and politics in Vespasian's Rome, and has Marcus and Helena involved in a string of mysteries as they accept jobs from everyone from jealous spouses to the emperor himself. A spin-off series is set in a slightly later time when Falco has prudently retired from investigating, citing a need to stay away from the attentions of a paranoid and despotic new Emperor who he investigated when he was merely a Prince, and has incriminating evidence against. The focus of the series now moves to his adopted daughter Flavia Albia, who has learnt well from her father and become a private detective herself. Very well written and highly addictive.<br />
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* {{wp|Lindsey|Lindsey Davis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diane Duane|Diane Duane }}==<br />
Again, another writer of YA books, but very ''very'' good ones. Her {{wp|Young Wizards|''Young Wizards''}} series, starting off with "So You Want to be a Wizard", explores what ''really'' happens when you sign up to be a wizard, eg: travelling to alternate dimensions with friendly, ''sentient'' micro-stars, inviting alien foreign exchange students to stay the planet, and helping whales perform ancient rituals underneath the sea to prevent the earth from cracking like an egg. I could go on, but I think a quote from TVTropes sums up the series perfectly: "Infamous in its fandom for a tendency to grab you by the heart and squeeze" --[[User:Varriount|Varriount]]<br />
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* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Duane Diane Duane] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Jasper Fforde|Jasper Fforde}}==<br />
Author of the Thursday Next books which started with ''The Eyre Affair.''<br />
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Perhaps the closest thing to the Pratchett theme of story-driven reality, but start with ''The Eyre Affair''; we were pretty disappointed with ''Something Rotten'' at our house.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]]<br />
:I'll go with that - ''Something Rotten'' was pretty rotten, but the four '''Thursday Next''' books are excellent. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 18:57, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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Fforde is very apt at twisting the narrative conventions, and his humour is very Pratchett-like indeed. I also recommend the Nursery Rhyme series, starting with The ''Big Over Easy'', starring Marlowe-like detective Jack Spratt. --Abie, 25 May 2010.<br />
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His books are very good: The Last Dragonslayer books are hilarious, and the first one especially has quite a clever premise. One of his latest books had a review along the lines of 'Watch out Terry Pratchett,' on it, so that should give you some idea...--[[User:AnnieBudgie|AnnieBudgie]] ([[User talk:AnnieBudgie|talk]]) 11:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)<br />
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Indeed, the [[Terry Pratchett|Creator]] himself said of ''The Eyre Affair'': "Ingenious. I shall watch Jasper Fforde nervously."<br />
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* {{wp|Jasper_Fforde|Jasper Fforde}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}}==<br />
Fraser was cited by Terry Pratchett as one of five authors whose books he would buy immediately on publication. His best-known works are the ''Flashman'' series (the cowardly but lucky Harry Flashman has many points of similarity with Rincewind) and the [[Daft Wullie|''McAuslan'']] series (whose Gordon Highlanders are [[Book:The Wee Free Men/Annotations|Roundworld Nac Mac Feegle]].) Fraser's books are usually scrupulously accurate history with a few fictitious characters inserted, and include copious footnotes and endnotes.<br />
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While the accepted Discworld referent for Flashman is usually taken to be Rincewind, Flashman is also a bluff, genial, con-man whose whole life is predicated on persuading people to accept he is something he is not. He pulls some almightily audacious bluffs in his career, and on one occasion, his wholly reasonable tendency towards self-preservation (which could uncharitably be described as cowardice) is subverted by a chemical substance which his lover of the moment assures him is a nice relaxing tonic. This enables him to fight and lead a battle without any fear at all and in fact to avert a Russian invasion of India whilst British attention is focused on the Crimea. A similar thing happens to Moist von Lipwig in {{RS}}...<br />
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* {{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Neil Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}}==<br />
Co-author of {{GO}}, so an easy choice. Pratchett fans seem to prefer ''Neverwhere'' and ''American Gods''. One of the latest novels is ''Anansi Boys''. {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Gaiman}} is known for his ability to create fascinating pantheons - if you're at all interested in comics, the ''Sandman'' series (which rightfully catapulted Gaiman to the fame he enjoys today) is one of the best ever written. His perky-goth Death is the best anyone's ever done with the character after Pratchett.<br />
Terry himself says that his novel, ''Coraline'', "...has the delicate horror of the finest fairy tales, and is a masterpiece."<br />
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Neil was a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]].<br />
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Recommended by [[User:Sanity|Sanity]].<br />
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* {{wp|Neil_Gaiman|Neil Gaiman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Craig Shaw Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}}==<br />
''Ebenezum'' and ''Wuntvor'' series are quite humorous, though the latter tends to drag a bit.<br />
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* {{wp|Craig_Shaw_Gardner|Craig Shaw Gardner}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}}==<br />
Mary Gentle's masterwork ''Ash: A Secret History'' must be recommended here as one of those books that lingers in the mind and fires neurons into new and different arrangements. There is certainly humour here: most obviously in the Rabelaisian adventures of a mediaeval mercenary company, hiring itself out to the highest bidder and finding laughter where it can in, a mediaeval landscape straight out of ''Monty Python and the Holy Grail''. There is also a deeper, rather black, humour of a more satirical kind, as the book deals with deeper and more profound issues of time and history and the way we perceive the passage of both. There are two interleaved stories here: one deals with the adventures of the mercenary company of the Lion, commanded by the warrior-woman Ash. The second story takes place in our own time, and deals with a historian trying to make sense of the legend of Ash, who starts to discover that the historical certainties of the past are slipping and changing around him wherever he looks. There can only be ''one'' past, right? Dead wrong. His suspicions are confirmed when archaeologist colleagues start to unearth artefacts relating to a past that by all rights should never have happened, and which start to prove the established history books are utterly dead wrong. <br />
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History is changing. All the indications point to the trigger point being somewhere in the late 1400's and somehow, Ash the warrior captain is intimately involved. Something happened in or around the year 1476 to completely alter the course of history - and belatedly, the late 1990's are changing to conform to that time-rift. The sequence of events in the late 1400's very nearly destroyed the world and ''something'' moved to correct it, to rewrite history into the form in which we knew it. Until the history professor started looking into the life of Ash and pulling together the random shreds that remained, out of place and time, of that secret history...<br />
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As well as being a thrilling fantasy/sci-fi adventure, Ash is also a satire on the practice and teaching of history, which (as Vetinari and the History Monks know) is neither fixed nor objective. Indeed, it offers insight into how the History Monks might operate, were they to exist on Roundworld, to restitch time and history after, say, a Sourcerer or a Glass Clock nearly blew it into smithereens. It vividly describes what people might notice, what would be observed, during a time-slip of this nature, and what loose ends would be left flapping afterwards that not even a Lu-Tze could tidy away. It even suggests a mechanism, which has to do with pyramids, and suggests that some VERY strange things happened in the latter 1400's in known history that are strange and anomalous... <br />
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Did TP read this book before, say, writing {{TOT}}? Ash was published in 1999, ten years after TP wrote {{S}}, but definitely released before {{TOT}} (published 2001). It's a very tempting thought... oh, and there are golems in this book. Like and unlike to those of the Discworld. <br />
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In a far lighter vein, Mary Gentle has also written '''''Grunts!''''', an account of the Eternal War between Good and Evil, as seen through the jaundiced eyes of those expendable foot-soldiers of the dark and sword-fodder for Heroes, the Orcs. Both repulsive and oddly sympathetic at the same time, the Orcs discover a trans-dimensional dragon whose hoard includes an entire United States Marine Corps armoury. <br />
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Equipped with high-tech weapons, the Orcs then see about carving out a corner of the fantasy world they can call theirs.<br />
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As Mary Gentle, along with Neil Gaiman, is a founder-member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]] to whom an early Discworld novel is dedicated (the HPLHFC consists of members of the new wave of British sci-fi/fantasy authors), then it would appear reasonably certain that TP is aware of her books. There are fairly unmistakable references to '''''Grunts''''' in the pages of {{UA}}, which given the subject matter would be even more remarkable by their absence. <br />
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Much recommended! <br />
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Both books recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Mary Gentle|Mary Gentle}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}}==<br />
Alan Gordon (born 1959) is the author of several mysteries, the first of which is based on the characters from William Shakespeare's '''''Twelfth Night'''''. He writes about jesters as advisers to the king, who actually make up a super-secret spy ring that try to keep peace and control the leaders of different countries. The Fool's Guild of these novels is portrayed as a mockery to the church, and they refer to Jesus Christ as "Their Saviour, the First Fool".<br />
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Alan Gordon began writing his novels about fools and jesters as a supra-national spy ring in 1999. This is exactly the same idea TP came up with a year or two earlier to explain the survival of the otherwise increasingly irrelevant Fools' and Clowns' Guild into the modern era - that the Guild's graduates go everywhere, end up in some very high places, and periodically report back to Doctor Whiteface. Making him both very rich and very powerful. <br />
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Is it possible AG got the basic idea for his seven Fools' Guild novels from Pratchett? I hope to track down at least one Alan Gordon novel today, read it, and report back here, as the similarities to Pratchett's Fools' Guild are just so obvious...<br />
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Just finished reading ''A Death in the Venetian Quarter'', about Byzantine plots in old Constantinople. The jokes are funnier - although in some places have a desperate Prachettian cod-mediaeval ring to them - the jesters, Fools and troubadours (ref ({{TLH}}) are happier and enjoy their vocation, and there is a Guild HQ which assigns both surface tasks (''"you are to proceed to Constantinople where you will be resident Fool to the Empress and the Princesses of the royal house of Byzantium"'') and hidden, clandestine, ones (''"while you are there you will assist and take a leading role in deposing the current Emperor, who is a drooling inbred dolt and not the man we need to keep out the Pope's crusaders on one side and the Turks on the other"'').<br />
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Fools serve both leaders in a war and can cross the lines freely to interchange information and updates, as well as acting as informal diplomats and heralds. This was apparently so in mediaeval times, as most people didn't take them seriously. (In Gordon's world, they also have useful Assassin skills, although outside the world of [[sloshi]], Lord Downey might have a demarcation issue with Doctor Whiteface.)<br />
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Reccomended!<br />
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* {{wp|Alan Gordon|Alan Gordon}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Green|Michael Green}}==<br />
While perhaps a little bit dated now, Mike Green's series of comic "how-not-to-do-it" guides, dating from the 1950's and 1960's, are masterpieces of a certain sort of British humour. The ''Art of Coarse...'' books are based on the premise that only a precious few, a stellar minority, of us can ever be genuinely good and gifted at any given sporting or leisure pursuit. The rest of us... well, we are fated to be only Coarse practitioners, spear-carriers and extras in the theatre of life. Green illustrates this fact of essential glorious mediocrity over a series of books, dealing with topics as wide and varied as rugby football, sailing, golf, sex, and amateur dramatics. A Coarse Sailor is defined as one who, in extremis, forgets all nautical language, and shouts "For God's sake, turn left!" ''The Art of Coarse Acting'' develops the theme of am-dram in a manner that Vittoler's strolling players would recognise, and indeed there is a lengthy discourse on why Shakespeare's clowns and fools are so abjectly unfunny, ''however'' you say the lines. This may be familar to readers of Pratchett, although there is no certainty that he has read these books. I would not be surprised, though! A cast of recurring characters, including Green's totally loathsome friend Askew, help carry the stories, all drawn from his real-life experience. (Although Green was better at rugby than he claims - he turned out, if only once, for the Leicester first fifteen, which is akin to playing for a premiership soccer side.) The series was continued by Spike Jones, although his books are nowhere near as good as Green's. <br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Green|Michael Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Simon R. Green|Simon R. Green}}==<br />
For something a little darker, try the ''Nightside'' series by Simon R. Green. Imagine Neil Gaiman's ''Neverwhere'' tossed in a blender with the noir detective template and every bit of myth, fantasy and sci-fi you 've ever seen or read and you'll get the delicious smoothie that is Nightside. Set in a secret city-within-a-city at the heart of London, follow John Taylor, a hard-nose private-eye as he sorts out cases both horrifying and fantastic.<br />
<br />
Green's definitely a name-dropper, and references tons of stories and myths, but his own characters and plots are original and fascinating, and utterly steeped in darkness. (Seriously... This guy's darker than Neil gets sometimes...) But it's all tied together with subtle English wit in the (almost obligatory to the noir genre) first-person narrative. (I've even heard a review with a favorable comparison to Terry, so there! Proof!) It's at least an M rating, but a heartily recommended read.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Simon_R._Green|Simon R. Green}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Harry Harrison|Harry Harrison}}==<br />
Prodigious author of science-fiction, ranging from potboilers through more "serious" exploratory sci-fi works and counterfactual histories, to out-and-out science-fiction humour. <br />
Anyone who perceived the slightly tongue-in-cheek aspect of '''''Strata''''' and '''''Dark Side of the Sun''''' will appreciate the parodic quality of Harrison's '''''Bill, the Galactic Hero''''' series of comic sci-fi novels. These send up every aspect of the classic gung-ho shoot 'em up space operas, in which, generally, American domestic paranoia about those goddamn Commies was projected out into space and time, and gave all-American heroes the chance to stand and fight for those good ol' fashioned values and Mom's apple pie. (Is it a matter of time before the space enemy starts to manifest recognisable aspects of Middle Eastern culture?)<br />
<br />
Harrison's funniest sci-fi comedies by far, though, are the nine or ten books of the '''''Stainless Steel Rat''''' series. In a future that has largely eliminated crime, Jim diGriz is one of the last crooks left in the galaxy. While he is not averse to the occasional bank robbery, he prefers other, largely non-confrontational and consensual, methods of separating people from their money. He is principled and ethical enough to absolutely refuse to kill in the line of business, and has a ball as he travels the galaxy, bilking, bunco-ing, cheating and generally con-man-ning in a thousand inventive ways. But one day he comes a cropper and is offered the choice of (i) having his mind re-programmed to remove all criminal tendencies; or (ii) working on the side of the angels, as a member of the Galactic "Special Corps", an elite unit of part-detectives, part-policemen, part special agents. Choosing to accept his Angel, in the form of the Machiavellian Special corps Director Inskipp, diGriz bites the bullet and reluctantly becomes poacher-turned-gamekeeper. His first assignment is to track down and arrest the beautiful and deadly Angelina, a woman with serious anger management issues and strong criminal tendencies. He does this so well they end up married, and adopt the nicknames of "Slippery Jim" and "Spike" for each other. (Do the descriptions remind you of anyone in the Pratchett character list?) Later books chart a marriage made in larcenous heaven, and the birth of twin sons who take after Mum and Dad... <br />
<br />
''The Stainless Steel Rat For President'' relates a tale of DiGriz and his family collaborating to fix the elections on a repressive planet ruled by a tyrant and dictator. The most rigged, bent and skewed election in the Universe then ensues, with both parties doing what they can to gerrymander, fix and fiddle the vote. A real lesson, as these things have all apparently been done in Roundworld elections... this was especially prescient of Harrison, as the electronic vote-counting machinery is rigged to the point of falling over. And this was written a ''long'' time before a certain business in Florida...<br />
Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Harry_Harrison|Harry Harrison}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Robert Shea|Robert Shea}} and {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} (Honorary #23)==<br />
A cautionary note: Shea and Wilson are rightly famed, in alternative circles, for the '''''Illuminatus!''''' series of novels. The trilogy is a joyously anarchic and irreverent romp through the whole scope of the occult, politics, conspiracy theory, secret societies, not-so-secret societies, et c, and sends up many genres of writing including the police procedural, horror, fantasy, political polemic (Ayn Rand gets a kicking), et c. <br />
<br />
The novice approaching ''Illuminatus!'' for the first time should not try to understand what's going on, as that way lieth doom. It's like trying to appreciate opera ''and'' understand the lyrics. On a first read, just see it as a series of loosely connected episodes but don't try too hard to comprehend the relationship between them. Just accept as a unifying theme that unless something is done to stop it, the Eschaton is about to be Immanetized (ie, the world is about to end in a manner loosely reminiscent of {{GO}}. Hell, there's even a [[Kraken|Leviathan]] as well as some unpretty denizens of Earth's [[Dungeon Dimensions]]). <br />
<br />
You get characters like the cynical street policeman who's seen too much; the hippies who really ARE about to be made streetwise (man) whether they want to be or not; the occupants of a submarine (which for some reason is painted bright yellow), whose mission is to prevent a war starting -initially out of a dispute over ownership of a [[Leshp|small, hitherto unregarded, island]]; the arch-villain Putney Drake, who controls all crime in the USA but has decided he wants to find his angel and go straight; the arch-manipulator Hagbard Celine who saves the world but has an agenda all of his own; 0023, the secret agent Britain is not proud of, and who gets all the weird X-files-like assignments that Bond sneers at; and a cast of eldrich supernatural entities, who are partly or wholly not human. Oh, and there are lots of Justified, Illuminated and Elucidated secret societies, with their own passwords and doorway ritual, administered by Brother Gatekeepers... <br />
<br />
(As an aside. Flawed criminal mastermind Putney ''Drake'', who controls all organised crime in the USA but still wants more. Compare to Eoin Colfer's Artemis ''Fowl''?) <br />
<br />
James Joyce is referenced many times and indeed even enters the book as a character at one point. This has to be said, as the structure of the book owes something to Joyce, the episodes stepping in and out of linear time and causal order. Therefore it's not an easy book to read but it rewards time, attention and frequent re-reading. <br />
<br />
It's also very, very, funny. <br />
<br />
I can guarantee you will never see the Reverend Billy Graham in quite the same light again after the manner of his cameo appearance! (Indeed, if the book has any conventional political stance, it can be discerned by the way the Republican/Religious Right Middle-American world-view is remorselessly sent up).<br />
<br />
Slipping in under the radar, and done with humour, is a lot of interesting philosophical stuff. For instance, what is the nature of money? (Ref. {{MM}}). We blithely refer to political affiliation as being left-wing, right-wing, anarchist, communist, et c, but what do these convenient labels ''really'' mean? Does the conspiracy theory or the cock-up theory govern human history, or a mixture of both, and at bottom is there really a difference? What is conspiracy theory? Do you have to be paranoid to believe it exists? Is there any validity to magic, occult, and psychic thought and practice? Can one Leader really exert a difference? What is the mystical all-importance of the number 23, and all its associations, like the letter "W"? Did the events of ''The Lord of the Rings'' really happen, making Tolkien not so much an author as an observer? <br />
<br />
This trilogy is believed to have influenced Terry Pratchett - there are just too many allusions and associations in the Discworld books. Recommended!<br />
<br />
Shea and Wilson went on to write a second trilogy, '''''The Universe Next Door''''', that develops Illuminatus themes and ideas while being true to the original. This deals a lot with quantum physics and the multiple-worlds model of the multiverse, whilst remaining extremely funny.<br />
<br />
Possibly far more accessible as novels, while still being in the spirit of ''Illuminatus!'', are the books Shea and Wilson wrote solo: '''''The Historical Illuminatus''''' trilogy, by Wilson, charts the life of Neapolitan wunderkind Sigismundo Celine in the latter part of the eighteenth century. There's sound history, intriguing discussions on the origins of Freemasonry, the decline of Catholicism, the Occult underground in Europe, why revolutions happen (lilac may or may not be included), and the ''true'' nature of scholarly footnotes at the bottom of the page. (they're a separate rogue novel, a kind of parasitic literary form trying to break into the reality of the main text) A jolly good story with believable characters, not without humour. Sigismundo Celine even invents a theoretically working steam locomotive - but evidently Naples and Paris are not the right orchards for this idea to blossom into steam-engine time, as he is derided and laughed out of university, much to his chagrin. <br />
<br />
Shea wrote a series of novels where the themes of Illuminatus! are further explored, where West met East in the mediaeval crusades and the western world suddenly became too small for old orthodoxies. (''All Things Are Lights'' and ''Saracen!''). In a second series, the underlying themes of ''Illuminatus!'' are seen through the eyes and experiences of a Zen warrior-monk, in what on the surface of things is nothing more than a rip-roaring adventure story set in mediaeval Japan and Kublai Khan's China. ( ''Shiké: Last of the Zinja'' and ''Shiké: Last of the Dragons'')<br />
<br />
Sadly, both authors are now deceased, having left their respective solo works unfinished, and their central characters hanging in limbo. (Although Robert Shea has placed many of his writings on his website, including completed and partially completed novels, so that they may be accessed for free). But - worth reading! Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
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* {{wp|Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}}==<br />
Author of some very funny police procedurals, the Dalziel and Pascoe series (these have been adapted for TV), and the more humour-based adventures of Luton PI Joe Sixsmith. In an internet interview, Hill has identified Terry as one of his favourite authors. His novels are set in the real world, although there are occasional touches of the supernatural in the Dalziel and Pascoe books. Hill's stories can be odd (Jane Austen's ''Emma'' rewritten as a murder thriller, anyone?), but are always satisfying. A good place to start is probably the Dalziel and Pascoe book ''Dialogues of the Dead'' and its direct sequel ''Death's Jest-Book'', or the Joe Sixsmith novel ''The Roar of the Butterflies'', which pays tribute to P.G Wodehouse.<br />
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* {{wp|Reginald Hill|Reginald Hill}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tom Holt|Tom Holt}}==<br />
Author of various parodies and stories based on mythology or other tales (sound familiar).<br />
First novel based on Wagner's ''Der Ring des Nibelungen'' is called ''Expecting Someone Taller''. Although most books are standalone, there is a series of sorts starting with ''The Portable Door'', which can arguably be termed a more adult and crankier Harry Potter in a cubicle farm.<br />
<br />
Holt's books combine what might otherwise be called ''chick-lit'' from the male point of view - there is invariably a romance between a man and a woman who almost completely fail to communicate nor see the subtleties of the other gender's form of world-view - made even more complex by the intrusion of magic and the supernatural. The paradoxes of using magic are dealt with at great length, as are the staples of fantasy fiction and folklore. Old pantheons of Gods who nobody seriously believes in any more are shunted off to a ''very special'' old peoples' home on the south coast of England. They proceed to have ''Last of the Summer Wine'' style adventures involving lash-up machinery and half-remembered magical artefacts. ''You don't have to be evil to work here, but it helps'' develops the theme of Hell being a Human Resources department full of management bollocks-speak and continual assessments with Health and Safety Law making it impossible to go out and slay dragons. A very tall dwarf and a very short giant feature as characters...<br />
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* {{wp|Tom_Holt|Tom Holt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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<br />
=={{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}}==<br />
To be more specific; for the non-British reader to better understand {{UA}} and the importance of football the autobiographical ''Fever Pitch'' is a must read. Written by a left-leaning intellectual well versed in feminist theory who to the amazement of his peers spent much of his formative years on Highbury's North Bank.<br />
<br />
This specific recommendation by [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 20:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC), and backed by --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC). It's a fantastically funny and searingly true book, but don't bother reading any of his others. Nanny Ogg's got a word for them. And it's not complimentary.<br />
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* {{wp|Nick Hornby|Nick Hornby}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Tanya Huff|Tanya Huff}}==<br />
The Keeper's Chronicles are a set of three (so far) books taking place in Canada, a sort of urban fantasy-comedy. More overt than Discworld but a lot of fun.<br />
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* {{wp|Tanya_Huff|Tanya Huff}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Barry Hughart|Barry Hughart}}==<br />
''Bridge of Birds'' - "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was."<br />
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Li Kao is a great scholar with a slight flaw in his character. His patron and servant, by turns, is Number Ten Ox, a peasant lad of unusual size and strength and more wit than anyone expects. The two engage in fantastic adventures in a version of Seventh-Century China unknown to historians. Annotators might find more amusement than even Pratchett provides (if they are serious students of Chinese history) trying to separate the research from the imagination.<br />
<br />
The similarity between Li Kao and another wrinkly little old man with unusual powers will strike most Pratchett readers. Don't tell the British press; they'll be off to Arizona to pester Mr. Hughart for his reaction to the outrageous plagiarism (again.)<br />
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The series continues with ''Eight Skilled Gentlemen'' and ''The Story of the Stone'', but these are rare and expensive.<br />
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* {{wp|Barry_Hughart|Barry Hughart}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Diana Wynne Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}}==<br />
The books are intended for a younger audience but I (and other Pratchett fans with the Tiffany Aching series) have often found so-called children's books to be extremely well written, often more so than their adult counterparts. One of the major themes in her books is the "multiverse" theory--explored in Pratchett as Quantum and [[Trousers of Time|The Trousers of Time]]. She has a fairly extensive bibliography; I would recommend starting with "Deep Secret" (written in a psuedo-epistolary style) or "Charmed Life" (in The Chronicles of Chrestomanci, Vol 1). "Charmed Life" has a more Tiffany Aching-esque feel to it. --[[User:Anatwork|Anatwork]] 05:27, 2 April 2007 (CEST).<br />
<br />
Diana Wynne Jones's ''The Tough Guide to Fantasyland'' is recommended by Terry, and includes many Discworld themes, such as swords, lost heirs, and Cities of Wizards. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 14:55, 7 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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* {{wp|Diana_Wynne_Jones|Diana Wynne Jones}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stuart M. Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}}==<br />
This Russian-American author wrote a series of police procedurals with a difference. Set in the Soviet Union in the 1980's, Inspector Rostnikov is a veteran policeman in the Moscow criminal investigation force. A decent and honest copper who strives very hard to stay out of politics and just do the job that's in front of him, he contends with the everyday criminality of Moscow and fending off his out-of-touch superiors whose priorities are not his and who view his efficiency as a copper with deep suspicion. Rostnikov does not believe in the approved Leninist-Marxist doctrine that criminality in the Soviet state is perpetrated by a rump of degenerate anti-social elements, who will wither away as the Revolution triumphs and there is thus no more need for crime. He's a copper. He knows there will always be crime regardless of whose social philosophy runs the State. He just gets on with it, alongside a department of underfunded, under-resourced, coppers whose attitudes range form resigned cynicism through open-eyed idealism to a sort of robotic, golem-like obedience to the State. Indeed, his most trusted colleagues are the enthusiastic youngster Sasha and the robotic Party loyalist Karpo. The collapsing years of the Soviet Union act as the backdrop to the stories, a situation where hardly anyone truly believes in communism any more, the old political truths are repated almost as a comforting mantra, everyone can see the corruption and collapse going on all around them, but nobody, apart from political dissidents, dares to say so outright. Unfortunately the police chief known as The Wolfhound is a True Believer, and behind him is the wider KGB/MVD apparatus to which the civil police is accountable. The smoke and mirrors of the USSR's last years and the trials of routine policing in this atmosphere are drawn with a great deal of black humour. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 10:24, 19 November 2016 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Stuart_M_Kaminsky|Stuart M. Kaminsky}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Fritz Leiber|Fritz Leiber}}==<br />
Classic sword & sorcery, but very often kind of tongue-in-cheek. TP has admitted that his early Discworld books, which can be seen as a parody of the S&S genre, were heavily inspired by Leiber's series about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. --[[User:Havelock|Havelock]] 02:20, 1 April 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
In fact, the principal city of the ''Fafhrd and Gray Mouser'' stories is named "Lankhmar", which is very similar to that of [[Ankh-Morpork]], and seems to share its social complexity.<br />
<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Leiber Fritz Leiber] on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}}==<br />
Stanislaw Lem is a Polish writer of science fiction, some of which is very funny and whimsical. He has been lucky with English translations that capture the spirit of the original, and try to keep up with the word play. '''''[[Wikipedia:The_Cyberiad|Cyberiad]]''''' is a great place to start; it's a series of stories about the robot inventors Trurl and Klapaucius. Great illustrations by Daniel Mróz, too! Oh, and if you saw the George Clooney film version of Lem's great novel Solaris and that turned you off, just ignore it: see the original Russian film version instead.<br />
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* {{wp|Stanislaw Lem|Stanislaw Lem}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Roy Lewis|Roy Lewis}}==<br />
Another suggestion from Terry Pratchett himself: he brought '''''The Evolution Man''''' to a British television show-and-tell as a book he wished he'd written. He said he'd read it in 1961 when it was nearly new and the influence on the thirteen-year-old writer is apparent.<BR><br />
The book describes a family of "ape-men" who are responsible for most of the social and technological development of the paleolithic era over one generation, somewhat like {{wp|Jean_Auel|Jean Auel's}} Cro-Magnons in ''Clan of the Cave Bear'' but lots funnier. It has also been published as ''What We Did to Father'' and ''Once Upon an Ice Age''. Recently republished in the US by Vintage Books.<br />
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* {{wp|Roy_Lewis|Roy Lewis}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Dan McGirt|Dan McGirt}}==<br />
{{wp|Jason_Cosmo|Jason Comso}} series, a tongue-in-cheek approach to swords and sorcery.<br />
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* {{wp|Dan_McGirt|Dan McGirt}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Michael Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}}==<br />
Another author spoofed by Terry Pratchett ({{COM}}, {{E}}) and worth reading in his own right. <br />
<br />
Known in his early writing years for prolific production of potboilers - the Elric series are well worth reading as "straight", if high-camp, fantasy fiction and provide a lot of background detail, as to where some of the jokes in the earliest Discworld novels originate. <br />
<br />
Moorcock has tried his hand at farce and comic writing in the Pratchett mould: a novel called '''''The Chinese Agent''''', about a chaotic collision and an escalating series of misunderstandings between the world's secret services operating in London, is laugh-out-loud funny reading, with echoes of {{GO}}. <br />
<br />
Similarly, there is a short story called ''The Stone Thing (A Tale of Strange Parts)'' in the anthology '''''The Flying Sorcerers''''' (Souvenir Press, 1997) where Moorcock attempts to take the mickey out of his own portentous high-camp style of writing, before anyone else does.--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST). This anthology also features a Terry Pratchett short story called '''''Turntables of the Night'''''. Recommended by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]].<br />
<br />
Also worth reading is the Von Bek series, beginning with ''The Warhound and the World's Pain'', and the Dancers at the End of Time series, which begins with ''An Alien Heat'', and is full of Oscar Wilde-esque humour. Both of these series are available in omnibus editions.<br />
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* {{wp|Michael_Moorcock|Michael Moorcock}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Christopher Moore|Christopher Moore}}==<br />
Hilariously funny novels, which while not exactly fantasy or science fiction have elements of both. Vampires, demons, cargo cults. Death turns up as well, although it's more of a Tooth Fairy-esque franchise than a single anthropomorphic personification. It's probably best to read them in publication order, as recurring characters develop over the novels. Start with ''{{wp|Practical_Demonkeeping|Practical Demonkeeping}}'', for an introduction to the barely sane inhabitants of Pine Cove.<br />
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* {{wp|Christopher_Moore_%28author%29|Christopher Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|John Moore|John Moore}}==<br />
Small but sweet novels set in a sort of alternate, anachronistic fairy-tale past. Humorous fantasy but with a definite American touch (a la Shrek). Whimsical, but with serious undertones.<br />
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* {{wp|John Moore (American author)|John Moore}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}}==<br />
A founder member of the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]], Kim wrote '''Anno Dracula''', the definitive "what if..." book, starting from the utter failure of van Helsing and his well-intended dreamers to destroy Count Dracula. This irritating little diversion dealt with, Dracula then resumes his trip to England, and introduces himself at Court as a member of very long-standing Rumanian royal dynasty. Which is true, to a given value of true. Queen Victoria then invites her relative - well, he's European royalty, he ''must'' be related - to come and stay at Buck House, or Sandringham, maybe Balmoral, or the one on the Isle of Wight. Having been invited into the palace, Dracula, like a certain vampire noble in {{CJ}}, stays. And stays. And takes over England. And by extension the British Empire. (Does this sound like a certain Pratchett book yet?). He even marries the royal widow and becomes King-Emperor. Then invites the family over from Transylvania. The idea if a vampire dynasty ruling Britain, the degree of acceptance/rebellion it engenders, and how Dracula dealt with threats to British world rule, is continued in the following novels of the trilogy. .--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]]<br />
* {{wp|Kim Newman|Kim Newman}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Naomi Novik|Naomi Novik}}==<br />
A fantasy dragon-story, set in the original 17th century Roundworld! The story isn't as funny as a Discworld novel, but Temeraire's dialogue (the dragon in question) can be very tongue-in-cheek! Could be a bit girlish book, but then again, you can very well be one! .--[[User:Charlie007|Charlie007]]<br />
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* {{wp|Naomi_Novik|Naomi Novik}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Pat O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}}==<br />
Although her book {{wp|The_Hounds_of_the_Morrigan|'''''The Hounds of the Morrigan'''''}} is aimed at children, like the best children's writers she creates a world which may also be inhabited by adults without their losing face. Set in West Galway, two children come to realise that despite St Patrick's best efforts, the old Irish gods and goddesses never went away. They just went ''over there a wee bit''. <br />
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The return of the Old Gods to modern (1970's?) Ireland has its threat: the Goddess who has awoken is the old and evil Morrigan, the triple-goddess of death and chaos and nightmare. She must be stopped...<br />
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O'Shea blends the ancient tales into a modern Irish landscape with deftness and humour. The children enter the ''other'' Ireland of myth and fable, and while at its worst the humour takes on a Disney-Oirish cuteness, the colour and texture of the book slowly darken into a mythological landscape Neil Gaiman would be proud of (not without humour). Recommended. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 23:15, 25 July 2007 (CEST)<br />
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* {{wp|Pat_O'Shea|Pat O'Shea}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}}==<br />
Have you ever wondered about the description of Lancre Castle, in the early pages of {{WS}}, as ''having been designed by an architect who'd heard about Ghormenghast, but had done the best he can despite having neither the budget nor the space?'' Or about the description of the way time and space do weird things in the precincts of Unseen University, with the effect that ''it makes Ghormenghast look like a toolshed on a railway allotment?''<br />
<br />
Well, Peake is the source: his contribution to the fantasy fiction ouevre is the magnificent and thick-as-several-bricks ''Ghormenghast'' trilogy, a beautifully written account of life in a massive, rambling, castle-cum-city-cum-palace which has, er, accumulated over the course of several thousand years, with every new generation adding further bits to it as they see fit. Therefore it rambles a bit, like the most eccentric English stately home, and entire rooms, floors, even wings, have been lost over the centuries. <br />
<br />
Peake richly describes the settings and populates the Castle with a civilization of grotesques, of whom the sanest and most sympathetic is possibly the good Doctor Prunesquallor, a man who like Cosmo Lavish is burdened with a dificult and sometimes embarrassing sister. <br />
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The social system is a suffocating heirarchy where a royal family rules at the top, and everyone else is born into a rigid caste system where even their very jobs are mapped out for them at birth. There is no way to change one's preordained social status, and until the advent of a rebellious kitchen scullion named Steerpike, nobody attempts to. At first a hero deserving sympathy, Steerpike climbs literally and metaphorically out of the depths of the castle kitchens and begins a calculated advance to the very top. His character subtly changes as his ambition grows, and it is clear he is seeking to depose the ruling family. After several murders, the former hero has become a monster: he is indirectly responsible for the death of the heroine Fuchsia, whose brother, Titus Groan, heir to Ghormenghast, resolves to destroy him. <br />
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A magnificent piece of fantasy and "baroque humour", a must-read for anyone into fantasy fiction, and another source of ideas and in-jokes for TP! ({{P}} is thought to be heavily influenced by Peake's characters. See [[Book:Pyramids/Annotations|here]]).<br />
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'''January 2010''': Breaking news. A fourth '''Gormenghast''' novel, started by Peake and finished, at least in draft outline, by his widow, has been discovered among a batch of the late author's papers. There is a possibility that it will see print by 2011. More here:- [http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/15/gormenghast-sequel-mervyn-peake-widow?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+theguardian%2Fbooks%2Frss+(Books)|More_here]. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 02:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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* {{wp|Mervyn Peake|Mervyn Peake}} on Wikipedia<br />
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=={{wp|Douglas Adams|Douglas Adams}} (Honorary #42)==<br />
English comic author sometimes compared to Terry Pratchett, most famous for his ''Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'' series, who passed away in May 2001.<br />
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He developed a Pratchett-like idea in his novel ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Tea-Time_of_the_Soul The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul]'' (1988), where idiosyncratic private investigator Dirk Gently has to investigate a case involving the survival of the old Norse gods into the present day, and the nature of the dark pact they have to enter into to ensure their continued existence. This book echoes the Pratchett theme that a god may only survive so long as belief persists, and that there is no thing sadder than a god still doggedly hanging on after the need for him (or her) has ended.<br />
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The book also develops the concept of Thor (who is also encountered in ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_the_Universe_and_Everything Life, the Universe, and Everything]'' (1982) as an otherwise unnamed Thunder God trying to pull Trillian at a party, and being outwitted by Arthur Dent) as an over-muscled and somewhat thick god with exaggerated body language.<br />
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Some concepts are shared by Pratchett and Adams in their respective science-fiction work, most notably a debunking of the utopian ''Star Trek'' ideal that greater technological sophistication confers greater wisdom and a pacifistic world-view. <br />
<br />
It can justly be said that Arthur Dent and [[Twoflower]] share a common characteristic: both are ignorant wanderers in a strange and foreign world, but the difference is that Arthur Dent is painfully and continually aware of how dangerous it all is, and of how much the settled inhabitants view him with condescending derision. (''Hey, monkeyman''!) Twoflower is blissfully unaware of the dangers and ambles unconcernedly through life. While it is true Arthur Dent does not have [[the Luggage]] to defend him, he is equipped with the Babel Fish (the equivalent is [[Rincewind]]'s ear for language) together with the resources embodied in Ford Prefect. Is Rincewind a parallel of Ford Prefect? Well, both have a vested interest in cheating death and running away from potential trouble by any means available. Just as Rincewind is constrained by the [[Patrician]]'s expressed wish to keep Twoflower alive and well, Ford must keep Arthur alive, as the last living being from planet Earth who may know the Question to the Answer. In both cases, a genuine friendship (of sorts) exists. --[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 17:02, 9 May 2007 (CEST) Seen otherwise, Arthur Dent shares some of ''Rincewind'''s view that he will be flung into a bad situation ''no matter what''.<br />
<br />
* [http://www.douglasadams.com/ The official Douglas Adams website]<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams Douglas Adams] on Wikipedia<br />
* [http://h2g2.com/ h2g2] - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Philip Pullman|Philip Pullman}}==<br />
An obvious choice, perhaps, but if you're looking for the fantastic and not just the hilarious, ''{{wp|His_Dark_Materials|His Dark Materials}}'' is a fabulous trilogy. It's probably the best fantasy since Tolkien. Terry Brooks, {{wp|Dragonlance|Weis and Hickman}}, {{wp|The_Dark_Is_Rising|Susan Cooper}} have all been and gone; JK Rowling's had a good go, but this is by far the best written of all of them. I know it's just become a film, but read the books first. The metaphysics is cool too. The idea of multiple worlds and realities (parallel universes?) could have come from [[Ponder Stibbons]] himself... --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 14:05, 23 December 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Philip_Pullman|Philip Pullman}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Robert Rankin|Robert Rankin}}==<br />
Much kookier than Pratchett, Rankin has a love affair with running gags and breaking down the fourth wall, has a style that seesaws between grandiose and I'll-break-yer-teeth, and his books generally involve small British towns and aliens, Hell, Elvis, time travel, or all of them at once. Described as "stark raving genius". His most recent book, ''The Educated Ape'', has a chimpanzee for its lead character who is oddly reminiscent of a certain orang-utan, thwarting misdeeds in a Victorian Steampunk London assisted by scientists, assassins, and wizards. Hmm. <br />
<br />
* {{wp|Robert_Rankin|Robert Rankin}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}}==<br />
A cartoonist, who created the St Trinians schoolgirls, as well as the Molesworth stories (in fact written by Geoffrey Willians) and several other books, like an illustrated adaption of Gilbert and Sullivan's work for print ''Dick Dead Eye''.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Ronald Searle|Ronald Searle}} on Wikipedia; {{wp|Geoffrey Willians|Geoffrey Willians}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}}==<br />
Mostly set in mid to late 20th century England, Tom Sharpe's novels range from smile-inducing to gut-wrenchingly funny on my personal humour scale, with "Ancestral Vices", "Porterhouse Blue" and "Blott on the Landscape" being the most relentlessly funny, to my mind. He holds no subject sacred, and his humour is much more brutal than, say, P. G. Wodehouse's or Terry's, but if you can stomach the wholesale and ruthless slaughter of sacred cattle and a certain amount of crudity, he can be a very funny author indeed. Common themes are weak-willed men, ferocious women, sexual perversions, incompetent academics and eccentric peers. The ''Wilt'' series deals with higher academia and the wranglings of an out-of-touch academic bureaucracy, concerned more with prestige and power than the delivery of education. The ''Piemburg'' farces are set in apartheid South Africa and centre on an inept and incompetent police force, which comes over as the City Watch shorn of its redeeming graces - it even has its own Findthee Swing and a dedicated "Cable Street Particulars" of the old sort. Secret policeman Liutnant Verkramp is obsessed with measuring and calibrating to assess the precise degree of black African corruption in the white race and has his own interesting character tics; the unspeakable Konstabel Els, a man who views being in the police force as a licence to get away with lots of crime, is a monster all on his own who loves very large powerful weapons - and their frequent satisfying use. <br />
<br />
* {{wp|Tom Sharpe|Tom Sharpe}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Jonathan Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}}==<br />
Author of the Bartimaeus Trilogy. These books are very witty with a superb use of footnotes. Told from the point of view of a wisecracking demon summoned by British magicians.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Jonathan_Stroud|Jonathan Stroud}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}}==<br />
The father of modern science fiction and sometime writer of wonderful fantasy short stories. He is often mentioned for his apparent prediction of the DNA molecule in his novella, ''The Golden Helix'' .<br />
Sturgeon was the kind of professional writer, like TP, who could knock off an assignment from elsewhere with imagination and force (e.g. {{wp|I, Libertine|''I, Libertine''}}), and he has similarly been accused of literature.<BR><br />
Look for {{wp|More Than Human|''More Than Human''}}, {{wp|The Dreaming Jewels|''The Dreaming Jewels''}} (aka The Synthetic Man), {{wp|Without Sorcery|''Without Sorcery''}}, ''E. Pluribus Unicorn'', ''Caviar'', but any collection you stumble across will contain a gem or two.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Theodore Sturgeon|Theodore Sturgeon}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}}==<br />
Like Edward Conlon above, Wambaugh is an ex-beat cop turned novelist. His first novel '''the New Centurions''' was written in 1971 whilst still a serving cop, and followed a group of misfits from police academy into their first probationary year on the beat on Los Angeles streets. A theme of New Centurions is the gradual build-up to a city-wide riot beginning in its equivalent of [[The Shades]] that put Los Angeles on the world map for all the wrong reasons. His fledgling cops have to deal with this as best they can - think {{MAA}} here. (In real life, the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots|the Watts Riot] of 1965). The work for which he is most famous, '''The Choirboys''', employs the same combination of black humour and gritty realism, and is known to have influenced Terry Pratchett in creating the Ankh-Morpork City Watch. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:36, 16 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
* {{wp|Joseph Wambaugh|Joseph Wambaugh}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}}==<br />
The ''Dragonlance'' series of books are quite possibly the best all-out quintessential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien. A normal premise (a relatively unassuming band of friends &ndash; who happen to be a warrior, a wizard, a knight, a half-elf, an elven princess, a hobbit-like creature, a dwarf and so on) become involved in a quest, and end up saving the world. Kitsch as that sounds, the story is genuinely enthralling and the first series spawned a massive TLR push, and there are now in excess of 50 books, Dungeons & Dragons-style RPGs &c all based on them. Go read - the first three (''Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning'') are wonderful. --[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 20:21, 15 August 2007 (CEST)<br />
<br />
The {{wp|Darksword|''Darksword''}} trilogy and the {{wp|Rose_of_the_Prophet|''Rose of the Prophet''}} trilogy are well worth reading, too. They are a lot more original than any of the ''Dragonlance'' books. The seven {{wp|The_Deathgate_Cycle|''Deathgate''}} books are well written, too.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|List_of_Dragonlance_novels|Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}}==<br />
Wodehouse's stories feature light humor, similar to Pterry's earlier works. Flashes of Wodehouse whimsy appear regularly and young Pratchett heroes like [[Moist von Lipwig]] resemble PGW's ''Psmith''. Willikins the butler, of course, comes in a straight line from the famous ''Jeeves''. There are a number of direct references, including, in *Hogfather* a suggestion that the Hogfather's pigs be urged on with the cry "Pighoo--ooey!" an echo of a Wodehouse story by the same name. <br />
<br />
Also like Wodehouse is the development of several distinct groups of stories with their own casts and localities. The Blandings books are set at Blandings Castle and usually have to with the Earl of Emsworth's obsession with his pig; the Mulliner Stories are set in the Angler's Rest and are increasingly tall tales about Mr. Mulliner's relatives; the Drones Club is set in London among a set of truly hapless, albeit wealthy young men.<br />
<br />
The turn of phrase is very similar: Neil Gaiman has pointed out that he, PTerry, Douglas Adams, and Jasper Fforde can all do it. Pratchett goes into darker territory: the most threatening figures in Wodehouse are aunts. But it can be argued that both Wodehouse and Pratchett present a view of the world that is ultimately accepting and tolerant.<br />
<br />
* {{wp|P.G. Wodehouse|P.G. Wodehouse}} on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
=={{wp|Patricia C. Wrede |Patricia C. Wrede }}==<br />
Humorous fantasy in a Candide-like style (very short chapters with very long titles). Her {{wp|Enchanted Forest Chronicles|''Enchanted Forest Chronicles''}} explore what happens to a beautiful 16-year-old princess who does not WANT to get married to a handsome prince. Ostensibly written for children, it has a ''Harry Potter''-like style that can be enjoyed by adults (and was written ''way'' before ''Harry Potter'', btw!). [[User:Kellyterryjones|Kellyterryjones]] 00:47, 24 December 2007 (CET) She has also written a series of fantasy books set in an alternate frontier America. [[User:Tiffany_Aching|Tiffany_Aching]] 10:43, 17 July 2014<br />
<br />
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Wrede Patricia C. Wrede] on Wikipedia<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Reading suggestions]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Book:The_Truth/Annotations&diff=27845Talk:Book:The Truth/Annotations2017-08-15T21:14:51Z<p>AgProv: /* a sort of truth */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>== Timeline issues? ==<br />
<br />
In terms of publication order,{{TT}} immediately follows {{T5E}} in which Vimes definitively resolves any unsettled situations in Überwald in favour of Low King Rhys, and by extention in the interests of Ankh-Morpork. (Other contenders for the Kingship, supported by the werewolves, would have gone so far as to excommunicate A-M's dwarves from Dwarfhood. And they certainly wouldn't have offered the favourable rates for fat and tallow which were negotiated by Lady Sybil). But here we have Vetinari expressing concern over a situation which, no the face of it, was definitively resolved by Vimes in the preceding book and which should no longer be an active concern. <br />
:The politics of dwarfs is very complicated. Vimes manages to stop one plot and the coronation goes forward but does NOT mean they all "lived happily ever after" [[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 13:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Yes- the impression I get is that the situation in Uberwald is 'always' more or less unsettled, to a greater or lesser degree. After all, the ur-political situation of the former Evil Empire is calqued on that of the former USSR, where there's a degree of unsettlement to this day. [[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 00:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Could it follow on that while {{TT}} immediately follows {{T5E}} in terms of publication order, and that the events of both books are very clearly close in chronological order, {{TT}} may in fact precede {{T5E}} in the timeline? Otherwise, Vetinari would not be expressing concern at events in Überwald which if they went the wrong way would be detrimental to A-M's interests. At this point, he may not have decided to send Vimes to sort it out and this is still in the future. After all, once Vimes goes to Überwald and sorts it out, it is very definitively sorted out, and leaves no room for future doubt or concern.<br />
<br />
Interestingly, Vetinari follows this seeming gaffe with a reference to the ''unsettled situation in Überwald.''<br />
<br />
==Demarcation==<br />
Why is there all that Discussion on the Main Page? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:37, 12 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
== a sort of truth ==<br />
<br />
"And Ye Shall Know The Truth And The Truth Shall Make You Free."<br />
—John 8:32,<br />
<br />
Also the motto of the CIA. Not sure how this fits, but Vetinari is interested in the idea of using a newspaper as a means of publishing selective truths of the sort which are good for government... and several US papers have been suspected of being used as a conduit for favourable news stories, or news which has been passed through the CIA first to make it fit for the public to know... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:14, 15 August 2017 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Seven_Spice_Black_Powder&diff=27803Talk:Seven Spice Black Powder2017-08-04T08:58:30Z<p>AgProv: A spin-off...</p>
<hr />
<div>"The canonical Miss Smith-Rhodes would be sure to take a keen interest. "<br />
<br />
Her fan fiction alternate, a woman who has taken on a vigorous life of her own and who among other things practices and teaches Exothermic Alchemy, ''certainly'' would... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:58, 4 August 2017 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27773Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T14:20:28Z<p>AgProv: ye gods, all of a sudden...</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:Alice_B2.jpg|Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27772Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T14:19:01Z<p>AgProv: let's try this...</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:AliceB2.jpg|Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27771Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T14:14:07Z<p>AgProv: let's try this...</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[AliceB2.jpg|200px|thumb|left| Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27770Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T13:21:23Z<p>AgProv: Aaargh, not sure what's happening but I can't get the picture to take. Help? Please?</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:AliceB2.jpg|200px|thumb|left| Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27769Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T13:18:50Z<p>AgProv: adding edited picture to explain reference in text</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Alice_B2.jpg|200px|thumb|left| Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27768Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T13:16:56Z<p>AgProv: adding edited picture to explain reference in text</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:Alice_B2.jpg|200px|thumb|left| Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27767Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T13:15:31Z<p>AgProv: adding edited picture to explain reference in text</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:AliceB2.jpg|200px|thumb|left| Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as I visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Alice_Band&diff=27766Talk:Alice Band2017-07-27T13:12:40Z<p>AgProv: adding edited picture to explain reference in text</p>
<hr />
<div>A certain facial similarity to Lara Croft (not Jolie) is belied by the torso. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Agreed to a point, but the sketch does show a youngish woman dressed and styled in a severely Victorian sort of way: this implies some very rigid bustiers and corsetry going in underneath the blouse, in order to keep everything down. It occurs to me that Victorian lady mountain climbers didn't let this sort of thing get in the way of scaling the Eiger...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Pratchett just doesn't do bodices worth a damn. Nobody's perfect. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I'm very unsure about the bit comparing the "coincidental" similarity between Miss Band and Lady Croft with the coincidental similarity between Ponder and Potter. Because this one clearly isn't really a coincidence; Pterry is a ''Tomb Raider'' fan and has been for ages. Whereas Kidby sketched Ponder at a time when nobody outside the Rowling household had ever ''heard'' of Harry Potter. That one really ''is'' a coincidence. [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]] 16:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Well, never heard of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway. I hadn't remembered that {{SOD1}} cover was 1999, well before the movie. I think [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] is pulling your leg a bit on the Alice "coincidence". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Philosphers Stone was published in 1997 but Ponder first appeared in Moving Pictures in 1990. It may be illustrators using the style of that wizard (lets face it there aren't that many young wizards on the Discworld to copy Harry Potter). Not beyond the realms of possibility, given that books influence other books. [[User:Marmosetpower|Marmosetpower]] 10:21, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Actually totally beyond the realms of possibility. Sir Terry himself said this about it: "Ponder Stibbons was indeed first drawn in 1996. I, of course, used a time machine to 'get the idea' of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul used in this case. Obviously he must have used something." --[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 11:44, 23 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
[[File:AliceB2.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Charlotte Rampling auditions for the part of Alice Band]]<br />
Damn, just been reading the Observer Magazine (Sun 7/8/2016) and they publish a picture of actress Charlotte Rampling in her heydey. Damn, that is ''exactly'' as i visualise Miss Alice Band. spot on, except that I suspect in most circumstances Alice would wear more clothes than that. Unless she was with a ''really'' close friend. As nudity is involved I will not copy the picture here. But that long, lean, somewhat ascetic finely boned face.... [https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2016/aug/07/peter-lindbergh-i-dont-retouch-anything-a-different-vision-on-fashion-photography#img-6| there is my Alice]. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 15:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
++Alice DDoF==''.... maybe she needs to be steered to a fanfic site, as the girl has a kind of promise! But right to delete, I think, as this is not the place for unsubsttantiated imaginative speculation - it only goes on a Wiki page if it's certifiable fact, or can reasonably be inferred from the books. But a cut above the usual vandalism, as she seemed to know her Discworld...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 01:17, 27 May 2012 (CEST)<br />
:Yes, better done than many of our contributions; that's why I only gave her(?) two weeks. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:00, 27 May 2012 (CEST)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=File:Alice_B2.jpg&diff=27765File:Alice B2.jpg2017-07-27T13:10:44Z<p>AgProv: That picture of actress Charlotte Rampling, evoking pretty much perfectly how I see Assassin and Stealth Archaeologist Miss Alice Band, cropped for modesty and to avoid unseemly debate as to whether this Wiki accepts nudity. "Only if it's relevnt to th...</p>
<hr />
<div>That picture of actress Charlotte Rampling, evoking pretty much perfectly how I see Assassin and Stealth Archaeologist Miss Alice Band, cropped for modesty and to avoid unseemly debate as to whether this Wiki accepts nudity. "Only if it's relevnt to the plot" may not be a defence here...</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Smith-Rhodes&diff=27764Talk:Smith-Rhodes2017-07-27T13:02:09Z<p>AgProv: one of those mninor little one-letter corectinos that mkae all the differnece</p>
<hr />
<div>for those dissappointed by the lack of an authorised tale, which will now never be written, a strictly non-canonical biography of Johanna Smith-Rhodes may be found on the Terry Pratchett Fanon Wikia:- <br />
[http://pterryfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Johanna_Smith-Rhodes]<br />
<br />
This diverges from what is now known of the canonical Mrs Smith-Rhodes. However, her role as Domestic Science Mistress has been given, in the fanfic AU, to [http://pterryfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Joan_Sanderson-Reeves another far more qualified and suitable person], which frees up Miss Smith-Rhodes in this alternative universe to take on a wholly different (and acclaimed as far more plausible) body, nationality and temperament. End of shameless self-promotion. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:48, 21 May 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I believe the sources of {{wp|Rhodes_Scholarship|Rhodes scholars}} are too limited here and their destination not limited enough. Kris Kristofferson and Bill Clinton were Rhodes scholars; Wikipedia and I are fairly sure they only go to Oxford. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:51, 29 November 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
Domestic Science isn't a specialty I would have guessed, either. There's something to be said for fan fiction. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:22, 16 June 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
The "organic poisons" part fits, though. Scorpions, other arachnids, serpents, and so on...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 21:15, 11 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==Political background?==<br />
How is Alice Band "The Right Honourable" (a form of address reserved on Roundworld for privy-council-level politicians)? I don't see this anywhere else except in the "strictly non-canonical" biography mentioned above. She is usually referred to as "Miss" and her own article doesn't mention the honorific. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Good point. Amended. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 09:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Discworld_calendar&diff=27688Discworld calendar2017-07-18T21:14:16Z<p>AgProv: /* Notable past years */ adding</p>
<hr />
<div>''This article is about the counting and naming of years and days on Discworld. For calendar books like the {{AGD}} see [[Bibliography#Diaries|Bibliography]], for the commercial items see [[Discworld Calendars]].''<br />
<br />
==General==<br />
A Discworld celestial year has 800 days and because of some interesting astronomical facts two of each seasons (two summers, two winters, etc.). This leads to the fact that many people actually do not count the astronomical years, but the half-years with 400 days, often refered to as "common years". The half-year has 13 months, listed below. Each month except Ick has 32 days, Ick has 16 days. Each week has eight days. The eighth day of each week is called Octeday.<br />
<br />
There are two main calendars in use on Discworld. The [[Ankh-Morpork Calendar]] counts full years and starts at the founding of [[Ankh-Morpork]], the [[University Calendar]] starts at the founding of [[Unseen University]] (in 1282 AM) and counts in half-years. Oddly enough, while the Imperial Ankh-Morpork calendar offers intellectual purity and mathematical elegance, the general populace tends to use the Weird, Wild, Wacky Wizards' calendar, which happens to correspond to the growing season.<br />
<br />
==Years and centuries==<br />
Centuries and years are named. We are currently in the Century of the Anchovy ({{CJ}}). It was preceded by the Century of the Fruitbat ({{MP}}) and even earlier by the Century of the Three Lice, and the [[Djelibeybi|Century of the Cobra]] ({{SG}}).<br />
<br />
== Notable past years==<br />
<br />
*The [[Kreeblephor|Year of the Lenient Vegetable]] - in which Bishop [[Kreeblephor]] converted a demon to the [[Om]]nian faith;<br />
*The [[Year of the Pensive Hare]] - the events of {{UA}} take place shortly after the New Year celebrations which usher in this year.<br />
* The [[Year of the Astounded Beetle]]; <br />
* The [[Year of the Engaging Sloth]];<br />
* The Year of the Hyena (mentioned in {{S}})<br />
* The [[Year of the Notional Serpent]];<br />
* The Year of the Prawn (Common Year 2005; Scholar's Year 1657);<br />
* The [[Cabbage|Year of the Pensive Frog]];<br />
* The Year of the Reversed Ptarmigan (Common Year 2007);<br />
* The Year of the Revolving Crab (mentioned in {{WA}};<br />
* The Year of the Sideways Leech (mentioned in {{H}});<br />
* The Year of the Spinning Mouse (Common Year 2015);<br />
* The Year of the Talking Frog (mentioned in {{H}}); <br />
* The [[Year of the Sneezing Panda]] (Common Year 2016);<br />
* The Year of the Intimidating Porpoise (mentioned in ''[[Reaper Man]]'');<br />
* The Year of the [[Backwards-Facing Artichoke]] (Common Year 2017)<br />
* The [[Ee|Year of the Scrofulous Vole]]. (mentioned in {{CDA}})<br />
<br />
==Months Of The Discworld Year==<br />
Or rather, of the Discworld's ''half''-year. {{TCDA}} clarifies previously opaque or puzzling aspects of the calendar. Quote:<br />
''This be for the Common Year, that being the four hundred days that measure the Season from Winter's Edge until the snows come again, and the Hogswatch is celebrated. All Celestial measurements, Observations and notations of Stars, houses of the firmament, and other divers heavenly bodies are taken on the Full Celestial year, of eight hundred days, which emcompasses two common years...''<br />
<br />
* [[Ick]] - only has sixteen days<br />
* [[Offle]] - all following months have thirty-two<br />
* February<br />
* March<br />
* April<br />
* May<br />
* June<br />
* [[Grune]]<br />
* August<br />
* [[Spune]]<br />
* [[Sektober]]<br />
* [[Ember]]<br />
* December<br />
<br />
The year commences on Hogswatch Day and ends on the following Hogswatch Eve.<br />
<br />
==Special holidays==<br />
<br />
* [[Hogswatch]] Eve, the end of the old common year.<br />
* [[Hogswatch]]Day (first of Ick, start of the new common year)<br />
* [[Soul Cake Tuesday]]<br />
* Day of the Lesser Gods (?same as below?)<br />
* [[Eve of Small Gods]], first midsummer day<br />
* Samedi Nuit Mort (celebrated in Genua)<br />
* Creator's Birthday (28th of April)<br />
* Wear a lilac if you were [[Glorious Revolution|there]] day (25th of May)<br />
* Koom Valley Day (5th of Grune)<br />
* [[Crueltide]], half-year point (end of first half-year, start of next)<br />
* [[Alls Fallow]], 3/4 point of 800-day year, the one day when witches and warlocks stay in bed (parodying {{wp|Halloween|Halloween}}), though in ''[[Wyrd Sisters]]'', [[Esmerelda Weatherwax]] suggests that [[Hogswatch]] is the one day witches shouldn't go out, though this may only apply to Mistress Weatherwax, since her arrival may cause people to feel wary rather than jolly.<br />
<br />
== Seasons ==<br />
<br />
* Spring Prime, first spring<br />
* Summer: mid-point ''Small Gods' Eve''<br />
* Autumn Prime, first autumn<br />
* Winter Secundus aka Spindlewinter: Mid-point ''Crueltide''<br />
* Secundus Spring<br />
* Summer Two: mid-point ''All's Fallow''<br />
* Secundus Autumn<br />
* Backspindlewinter: mid-point ''Hogswatch''<br />
<br />
Discworld seasons are 'explained' in one of four paragraphs in the footnote on page 5 of ''The Colour of Magic''. It is written:<br />
<br />
"Since the disc's tiny orbiting sunlet maintains a fixed orbit while the majestic disc turns slowly beneath it, it will be readily deduced that a disc year consists of not four but eight seasons. The summers are those times when the sun rises or sets at the nearest point on the Rim, the winters those occasions when it rises or sets at a point around ninety degrees along the circumference."<br />
<br />
==Zodiac==<br />
<br />
The Discworld zodiac consists of 64 (8*8) constellations, nebulae or individual stars grouped in thirteen ''Houses''. There may be other constellations that are not part of the zodiac, but it's possible that the Discworld's unusual revolution means that the Discworld sun and/or moon enters all constellations at least once (the "zodiac" is a list of constellations in which the sun or moon [or planets, but there don't seem to be any around Discworld] can be found at some point in time). [[Roundworld]] has 88 constellations (1 of them non-contiguous), 12 of which are in the zodiac (a 13th constellation is also technically in the zodiac, but is not recognized as part of the zodiac). According to research wizard "Numbers" [[Riktor]], who meticulously counted them, there are, or were at the time of counting, 49,873 visible stars in the Discworld heavens. Which is ample raw material for the cosmic Rorschach test that creates constellations.<br />
<br />
===The Houses of the Zodiac and their 64 Elements:===<br />
:as described by the well-known mages and scholars Pratchett of Sarum and Pearson of Wincanton <br />
<br />
*'''The First House''' - The House of Io<br />
**The Eye of Io <br />
** The Crab<br />
**The Cow of Heaven<br />
**The (Knotted) String<br />
**The Celestial Parsnip<br />
<br />
*'''The Second House''' - The House of the Gate<br />
**[[Wezen (the double-headed kangaroo)]]<br />
**The Two Fat Cousins<br />
**The Perhaps Gate<br />
**Scarab's Claw<br />
**[[Mubbo the Hyena]]<br />
<br />
*'''The Third House''' - The House of the Bull<br />
**Silicarous's Gift<br />
**The Bull<br />
**Hast's Trumpet<br />
**[[Cubal's Flame]]<br />
**The Void<br />
<br />
*'''The Fourth House''' - The House of Melok<br />
**Melok<br />
**Old Toesy<br />
**Vut the Evenstar<br />
**Mr Williams<br />
**Occasional Paddles<br />
<br />
*'''The Fifth House''' - The House of the Bright Cabbage<br />
**Blic-Blick<br />
**[[Spune|The Bright Cabbage]]<br />
**The Starfish<br />
**Old Dog<br />
**[[Crabbus]]<br />
<br />
*'''The Sixth House''' - The House of the Plow<br />
**Pashmina<br />
**The Flying Moose<br />
**The Pitcher (or Bucket)<br />
**Plough Handle<br />
**Okjock the Salesman<br />
<br />
*'''The Seventh House''' - The House of the Star<br />
**The Faint Star Major<br />
**The Faint Star Minor<br />
**The Little Turtle<br />
**The Flagon<br />
**Ket's Knife<br />
<br />
*'''The Next House''' - The House of Woldar<br />
**Woldar<br />
**Evar's Footprint<br />
**The Ram's Horn<br />
**Two Rivers<br />
**Young Faithful<br />
<br />
*'''The Ninth House''' - The House of the Ram<br />
**The Jumping Ram<br />
**[[Khefin]]'s Eye 1<br />
**[[Khefin|Khefin's Eye 2]]<br />
**[[Khefin|Khefin's Eye 3]]<br />
**[[Khefin|Khefin's Eye 4]]<br />
<br />
*'''The Tenth House''' - The House of Trabnor<br />
**Trabnor<br />
**The Lanthorn<br />
**The Wicket<br />
**Turnip's Tail<br />
**The Snipe<br />
<br />
*'''The Eleventh House''' - The House of the Horse<br />
**Teg the Horse<br />
**The Miller's Pocket<br />
**[[Astoria's Flame]]<br />
**The Cradle<br />
**The Sleeping Dog<br />
<br />
*'''The Twelfth House''' - The House of Fore and Aft<br />
**Young Harry<br />
**Forward<br />
**Aft<br />
**Vut's Candle<br />
**Silur the Catfish<br />
<br />
*'''The Thirteenth House''' - The Dread House<br />
**Old Faithful<br />
**The Scythe<br />
**The Coffee Cup<br />
**[[Gahoolie the Vase of Tulips]]<br />
<br />
===Annotations===<br />
<br />
* Wezen the Doubleheaded Kangaroo: the first constellation (interesting because the wizards don't seem to recognize a kangaroo when they see it in {{TLC}}-- perhaps because it was flattened and had only one head? Although in fairness you couldn't recognize anything else from it's constellation either, and it's never really obvious what is mythical and what isn't!)<br />
* The Two Fat Cousins: possible reference to Tweedledee and Tweedledum?<br />
* The Flying Moose: possible reference to Rocky The Flying Squirrel and Bullwinkle J Moose<br />
* [[The Small Boring Group of Faint Stars]]: Rincewind's birth sign, usually not a wizard's sign. Was much brighter thousands of years ago when the Disc was closer to it (according to {{TLC}}), so it's not clear why the ancients called it "faint"; perhaps they knew the Disc would move away from it long-term?<br />
* The Knotted String: possible pun on "I'm a frayed knot" jokes<br />
* [[Gahoolie the Vase of Tulips]]: the last constellation (now if we could only find that whale)<br />
* the Triangle, mentioned in {{TLC}}, possibly not part of the zodiac<br />
<br />
==Related pages==<br />
* [[Discworld Timeline]]<br />
* [[:category:Discworld Timeline|Discworld timeline category]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:Discworld concepts]]<br />
[[Category:Discworld Timeline]]<br />
<br />
[[de:Drehjahr]]<br />
[[de:Monate]]<br />
[[de:Tag]]<br />
[[de:Tierkreiszeichen]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Ee&diff=27687Ee2017-07-18T21:12:28Z<p>AgProv: expanding</p>
<hr />
<div>A long-lost city in the Klatchian desert. {{P}} locates it in the [[Great Nef]] desert and the [[Book:The Discworld Mapp|Mapp]] shows it near the center of the desert about a thousand miles rimward of the Circle Sea. Maps of the area are unreliable, however; it's the '''Lost''' city, after all. the famous theological showdown known as The Convocation of Ee took place here in The Year of the Scrofulous Vole. ''A'' lost city answering this basic description - at least, it had a temple to [[Ur-Gilash]] - was rediscovered by [[Brutha]], [[Om]] and [[Vorbis]] during the latter stages of {{SG}}. However, other authorities cited in {{CDA}} place the location of Ee in the centre of the [[Great Nef]] desert. Debate continues. <br />
<br />
Om blamed the reason for its having been abandoned on goats, the only creature that can take a semi-fertile savannah and by eating everything that grows and is green faster than it can be replenished, turn it into an uninhabitable desert.<br />
<br />
[[Category: locations]]<br />
[[Category: Discworld geography]]<br />
[[de:Iieeh]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Anoia&diff=27471Talk:Anoia2017-07-03T11:37:03Z<p>AgProv: /* Anoia's roundworld priest and avatar? */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>I am just feeling curious... is the meaning of "rattle the drawer" as written here clear to everybody? My first language is not English and when I read the book I spent a few minutes trying to figure out why the action was called rattling. It was also the first time that I found out that the situation could be described as "stick" (the meanings I had been aware of before this was "stick" as "glue it to" or in the same way as "stick it where the sun don't shine"). I propose that the sentence be modified to: 'When a drawer cannot open because of some object inside it sticking in the way, someone shakes and unsuccessfully pulls the drawer making a rattling sound, and cries "How can it close on the damned thing but not open with it? Who bought this? Do we ever use it?", even though the person might be genuinely irritated or even exasperated, it is a praise unto Anoia.' We are a wiki, so we ought to make things clear and understandable even to little kiddies. Improvements to this proposal are welcome. Current version is left intact for purposes of comparison. --[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 02:17, 27 January 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
:I disagree. I did understand "rattling", and for those who don't, there's the dictionary. Little kiddies will probably understand as the only little kiddies likely to read this will have English as their first language. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 10:23, 27 January 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
::All the English dictionaries I have here in America (English-English, not a translation dictionary) emphasize "rattle" as having the purpose of making the sound, so it was confusing... --[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 15:25, 27 January 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
:::Well, that's what happens. Trying to open a stuck drawer makes a rattling sound. It immediately gave me the impression of someone trying to open a drawer where something got stuck. I think the word was purposely chosen for audiovisual writing effect. But explaining the expression makes it look a bit silly. Besides, people can now watch this talk page if they don't understand. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 16:30, 27 January 2006 (CET)<br />
<br />
::::To throw in a second (well, third) opinion - I have no trouble understanding "rattle" either. And my native tongue isn't english. It's german, though, and we have a similar word, "rattern", so perhaps that's why...--[[User:Cyberman|Cyberman]] 23:00, 10 September 2010 (CEST)<br />
<br />
And to add in a ''poisson rouge'', the word "rattling" can also be used as a colloquial verb, as in "he was rattling around in the big house" or "he rattled round the corner". Sorry about that, but considering English has the largest collection of words in its vocabulary of any language we have an irritating habit of ascribing 2,3 or 4 meanings to many many words as if we had a paucity of them.--[[User:Knmatt|Knmatt]] 10:15, 11 September 2010 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Anoia's roundworld priest and avatar? ==<br />
<br />
It beleatedly occurs to me that the putative psychic Uri Geller would fit in on the disc as a priest of Anoia. Look at his trademark paranormal skill of spoon-bending, for instance...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 11:37, 3 July 2017 (UTC)</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Slab&diff=27468Slab2017-06-28T08:44:47Z<p>AgProv: one of those mninor little one-letter corectinos that mkae all the differnece</p>
<hr />
<div>A [[Troll drugs|drug]] used by [[Trolls]], consisting of ammonium chloride cut with radium. A growing problem in [[Ankh-Morpork]], because of the number of troll boys using it. [[Detritus]] has a One-Step program to help addicts. As of {{FOC}} there is also a one step program for the Dealers, since while Detritus is very careful to lie to Vimes about it, we are clearly informed that he nailed a dealer's ears to the wall. Detritus himself has had a Slab awareness campaign going since ''[[Feet of Clay]]'', telling people what happens to "them buggers what sells Slab to kids".<br />
<br />
:Slab: Jus' say 'AarrghaarrghpleeassennononoUGH'. <br />
<br />
Commander Vimes apparently authorised this campaign.<br />
<br />
The actual effects of Slab are similar to LSD, with the troll in question seeing things for a prolonged period, not causing any trouble, and just wandering off to look at the pretty pictures. While the troll will usually go find somewhere quiet to enjoy the show, it has nasty side effects up to and including melting a troll's brain.<br />
<br />
[[Chrysoprase]] is a suspected pipeline dealer in Slab, though as of {{T!}} he is attempting to claim he's getting out of the trade owing to the influx of young trolls on [[Slide]]. During the book he even gives up the location of a drug lab to the watch though given that Mr Chrysoprase is a mobster the truth (or lack of) of his statement cannot be determined.<br />
<br />
''Slab'' is also the title of an [[Girls, Giggles and Garters|artistic magazine]] aimed at the Troll market. it is safe to say this is a magazine aimed at male trolls. <br />
==Annotation==<br />
<br />
Detritus's campaign is a parody of the "Just Say No" campaign, started by the BBC children's programme ''{{wp|Grange_Hill|Grange Hill}}'' after a storyline in which pupil Samuel "Zammo" McGuire battled heroin addiction.<br />
<br />
In his autobiography of a career in the New York Police Department, ex street cop and detective Edward Conlon reveals that the street name for a sealed wrap of crack cocaine was indeed... a '''''slab'''''. Conlon's autobiography, '''''Blue Blood''''', is chocca with all the absurd and trivial little details of a life on the beat, many of which read so weirdly that were they put in a Discworld context, you would think Terry had invented them just for the Watch. And yes... in the 559 pages you will find the NYPD's Colon, Nobbs, Visit, Detritus, and all the police archetypes... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:36, 15 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Discworld concepts]]<br />
[[Category:Drugs]]<br />
[[de:Platte]]</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:AgProv&diff=27467User:AgProv2017-06-28T08:37:35Z<p>AgProv: /* An Experiment: */ expanding: lovely new referents!</p>
<hr />
<div>Just to create the page! Male, too old, should have grown up gracefully but hasn't. Originally from the Flintshire region of [[Llamedos]] and functionally illiterate in several languages, including Welsh. (You know you're multi-lingual when you can pull off typos and spelling errors in more than one language).<br />
<br />
==Hmm. A Challenge.==<br />
just noticed the article count stands at 3,910. Another ninety articles will therefore get it up to 4,000. I have the Diaries and Yearbooks now, or most of them. And then there are quite a few redlinks to kill. Research beckons. Ninety new pages. Hmm. This may be doable.<br />
<br />
Did it! After an estimated 84 new articles and ten day's effort - seven or eight articles of the necessary 90 came from other people and just to be sure I went up to 4,001 - on Saturday 30th July 2016 with [[Dwarf Chocolate]]. As Old Dickens said, not the most palatable of topics, but there it was in the {{CDA}} as a previously overlooked snippet... chocolate looking and sounding suspiciously like Toblerone which is hard and unyielding enough to be used as a weapon of war and which, as a bonus, carries an advisory warning of May Contain Nuts. (Almonds... possibly the sort that interest the Assassins?)<br />
<br />
Can we make it 5,000 any time soon? Lots of scope with 1100 empty pages! (of which maybe 500 are feasible? After eliminating duplicates, extremely slight subject topics where you'd struggle to add three or four words, all those links to the German wiki, and the downright strange) and there are ''lots'' of odd corners in the published books which need to be explored.<br />
<br />
==A noble gift==<br />
[[File:A noble gift.jpeg|200px|thumb|left|A lot of Christmasses, all at once]]<br />
A noble and mighty gift. From a fan of my fanfic writings who wishes me to have the best research sources. I'd given up all hope of actually physically seeing any of these - so getting them in this condition and for free is generosity indeed! I won't embarrass the person by naming them as I suspect they contribute here under a pen-name. Suffice to say the gift is from a fine and lovely city in Kent, where pilgrims to the Cathedral have been fleeced and shaken down by the Guild of Priests and local Dibblers ever since Chaucer and before. And yes. I do know (1) my German is going to have to get a lot better so as to deal with the Assassins' Handbook; and (2) the informal price is my completion of at least two named fics. Consider this commenced. Thank you.<br />
<br />
==Hooray!==<br />
Just bought my copy of {{CDA}}. Any observations, annotations or flights of fancy will have to wait a few days, though. Herself basically said "go out and buy something for yourself that I can wrap up and say it's from me when we open presents in front of the family. You can go up to £25." How could I say no. Bought it, refrained from looking, presented it to herself for wrapping. Apart from this one fleeting glimpse I won't see it again till Friday. But something to look forward to on the day when surrounded by inlaws and outlaws!<br />
<br />
==just dumping this here==<br />
for now. Too tired and needing my bed. looks interesting:<br />
[http://backspindlegames.com/clacks/ New Discworld game]<br />
<br />
== Ac yn y Dysgfyd...==<br />
[[File:200px-Lleidr Amser.jpg]]<br />
Rwyf wedi prynu y llyfr hwn. Yr ydym yn trafod cyfieithiadau o Terry . Dylwn i ysgrifennu adolygiad . Rwy'n rhy ddiog ar hyn o bryd .<br />
<br />
I've bought this book . As we're discussing translations of Terry (albeit in Polish, for now). I should write a review . I'm too lazy at the moment. My time is indeed being stolen. "Gohuriaeth yw lleidr amser!"<br />
<br />
==Specific translation notes==<br />
It's interesting that time spent on newspapers and press release work trained Terry to write in short, pithy sentences (at least up to about {{UA}} and {{SOD4}}, when he got an urge to start rambling a bit). These lend themselves extraordinarily well to translation into Welsh - TP's deceptively simple, straightforward narrative style is a translator's gift. It's like "Basic English" only with a much expanded vocabulary. so far this is the only Welsh Discworld novel, so a lot of recurring characters, who don't appear in this book, don't have Welsh names yet - a Welsh-language wiki would be a very spare one. But a note or two on those who do...<br />
<br />
* '''''[[Nanny Ogg|Mam-Gu Ogg]]''''' There is more than one word for "grandmother" in Welsh. It's interesting Parri uses the South Wales version "Mamgu". (Maybe because this is as near to "standard Welsh" as it gets? North Wales uses the variant term "Nain", sometimes "Naini". Hell's bells, this is how English ''gets'' the word "Nanny"! Too obvious? Or perhaps as North Wales has more Welsh-speakers and is therefore the biggest market for this book, using a word from a different dialect of Welsh reinforces the notion that Lancre is slightly strange and isolated and backward compared to civilisation... I wonder how the Granny in "Granny Weatherwax" would be rendered, though. <br />
<br />
* '''''[[Myria LeJean|Myria Cath-Rawd]]'''''. Still puzzling this one out. The nearest straight or surface translation I can get for ''Cath-Rawd'' is ''many cats''. In English, "LeJean" is a hidden pun for "Legion", which appears in the Bible in Matthew 5:28 as the collective name of 6,000 demons who have turned one poor guy's mind into a tenement block. LeJean has to be a stealth pun which only becomes clear much later in the book means "Legion" in the Biblical sense - she is the first intrusion on the Auditors, who are legion, into the specifically human world in a human body. Just as the original Legion is cast out into a herd of pigs who then do a lemming off a cliff, Myria is "exorcised" from the human world by jumping onto a vat of chocolate. I'm wondering if the "many cats" thing refers to the proverbial impossibility of herding cats - thousands of self-willed independent creatures. The Auditors think and act with one mind - until they make the mistake of incarnating as people and discover individuality, and that it takes a particular frame of mind (which they haven't got) to "herd" all the individual drives, organs, hormones, instincts and directives that make a human body... there's no help in the Beibl story in Marc 5:9, where on being asked ''Beth yw dy enw?'', the demons reply ''Lleng yw fy enw; am fod llawer ohonom''. (Who are you?/Our name is Legion, for we are many.) Here the word for Legion is ''Lleng''.<br />
The German translation doesn't bother; [http://www.thediscworld.de/index.php/Myria_LeJean here] she is still Myria LeJean. She is also Dame Myria Ligion in the Disquemonde.<br />
<br />
==Just bought my copy of {{BS}}==<br />
And there is much to discuss. And to think I deliberately did not shell out £20 on the hard-back because I thought I'd read most of it before, elsewhere... £7.99 paperback.<br />
<br />
==An Experiment:==<br />
Thought about this for some time. Translation conventions for people, places, and things in the Discworld. Just experimenting: <br />
<br />
{|border="1"<br />
| '''''Concept in English'''''<br />
| '''Cymraeg'''<br />
| '''Francais'''<br />
| '''Nederlands/Afrikaans'''<br />
| '''Russian'''<br />
| '''''Comments'''''<br />
|- <br />
| Translation Credits:<br />
| [[Dyffrig Parri]]<br />
| [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Couton| Patrick Couton]<br />
| [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venugopalan_Ittekot| Venugopalan_Ittekot] (Ruurd Groot)<br />
| <br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]]<br />
| <br />
| Carotte Fondeurenfersson<br />
| Biet Yzergitersen<br />
|<br />
| "Biet" is Dutch for "beetroot"<br />
|-<br />
| [[Death|DEATH]]<br />
| ANGAU<br />
| LA MORT<br />
| DE DOOD <br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| [[Death of Rats|DEATH OF RATS]]<br />
| ANGAU LLYGOD<br />
| LA MORT DES RATS<br />
| DE DOOD VAN RATTE<br />
|<br />
| Welsh translates as "Death of Mice" <br />
{{death|Squeak}}={{death|Couiiii}}(Fr)={{death|Gwich}}(W)<br />
|-<br />
| [[Granny Weatherwax]]<br />
|<br />
| Mémé Esmerélda Ciredutemps<br />
| Opoe/Ouma Wedersmeer<br />
| Babiushka Vetrovosk<br />
| Russian: Grandmother Windwax<br />
|-<br />
| [[Magrat Garlick]]<br />
| <br />
| Magrat Goussedail<br />
|Magraat Knophlox<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Myria LeJean]]<br />
| Fonesig Myria Cath-Rawd<br />
| Dame Myria Ligion<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|Welsh: Myria "Many-cats" ?<br />
Fr: Une Contrôleusse, Contrôlix <br />
|-<br />
| [[Nanny Ogg]]<br />
| Mamgu Ogg<br />
| Nounou Ogg<br />
| Ootje Nack <br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Sam Vimes]]<br />
| <br />
| Samuel Vimaire<br />
| Douwe Flinx<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Life Imitates Art:==<br />
<br />
[[File:History of paint 006.JPG|200px|thumb|left|alt text]]<br />
Life imitates art! Totally independently of each other, Herself and Myself each picked a colour to redecorate the house with.... these are not going in the same room, btw, she wants a coral pink feature wall in one room, I'd quite like spearmint green in another... but here we bloody well are, pink and green again... Go, Dimmers!<br />
<br />
=={{SOD4}}==<br />
Trying to get into the new book. Really trying. The scientific bits are, as usual, challenging going, but once you grasp what they're getting at, it actually gets quite interesting. But the Discworld story, so far, is... well, lacklustre. It doesn't even feel as if he wrote it, if you see what I mean. It reads like second-division fan fic. The sort that isn't bad, tells a decent story, the characters are in context... but the author only gets the classic Terry Pratchett voice here and there in little flashes of brilliance. If anything, the Margery Dawes bits (and why does that make me think of Matt Lucas dragged up) read as if they're in the Felicity Boodle voice TP devised for {{TWOP}}. I really, really, hope it improves. <br />
<br />
Another little problem as I get further into the book: the balance is wrong. The science chapters are too long and the Discworld chapters are too short. Not. Enough. Discworld.<br />
<br />
And it used to be said about Terry that he avoided the "plots-r-us" school of dialogue. His dialogue between characters here not only appears to take the place of plot, the speeches are far too long. Dialogue sequences used to be short, pithy and bang-bang. Now there are whole paragraphs of character-led exposition. Rincewind does not sound like Rincewind; the Dean is not the Dean. What's gone wrong? Was Terry just content to write an outline script and then let others - Rob Williams or Rhianna Pratchett or both - fill in the details? There are moments of the old Pratchett genius - his description of how Vetinari can force a crowded room into silence just by sitting there is excellent - but there are just too few of them. So far.<br />
<br />
And Sally von Humpeding leaps straight from Lance-Constable to Captain without seemingly going through any intermediate ranks? Sorry, can't buy this. It took Angua years and even Carrot didn't make it all the way in one go.<br />
<br />
==Fan-art: a new venture.==<br />
<br />
[[File:Jsr final.jpg]]<br />
<br />
This is a visualisation of one of my original characters in fanfic, one of the new generation of teacher-Assassins brought into the Assassins' Guild school to deal with the influx of girl pupils. this is a first go at classroom monster and teaching veteran Joan Sanderson-Reeves, professional teacher and, until the Guild caught up with her, successful freelance poisoner. With long experience in administering unorthodox food additives and really exotic herbs and spices, she is now Domestic Science teacher to pupil Assassins. She appears in several of my stories and has a starring role in "Murder most 'Orrible". <br />
<br />
[[http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5423228/1/Murder-Most-Orrible]]<br />
<br />
("Domestic Science at the Assassins' School, where whether you add almond essence is truly a life-or-death choice. Joan the teacher confiscates a copy of the "Tanty Bugle". And her past comes up to meet her...")<br />
<br />
Drawn in pencil and coloured using MS Paint and Gimp.<br />
<br />
This is a link to a visualisation of one of my Discworld characters - well, Terry's character, really, but outside a name and a job description she's just a placeholder. For some reason I haven't been able to post my artwork here, but here's a link to it and thus to my portfolio on deviantArt:-<br />
<br />
[http://agprov.deviantart.com/art/Miss-Smith-Rhodes-Assassin-340680011 Johanna Smith-Rhodes, visualised and sketched by AgProv]<br />
<br />
[[File:JSR, final.jpg]]<br />
<br />
Not perfect, and with some glaring flaws, but now I have the bug I intend to so more to accompany the writings. As this is 95% my interpretation of the character and comes out of fanfic rather than canon, I have deliberately not placed this on the appropriate Wiki page. Drawn for the DeviantArt site and the Fanon Wiki, this is my interpretation of Terry's barely-there character Miss Smith-Rhodes. It hasn't ''quite'' got there and some aspects of the drawing are slightly out, but this is the adventuress from Rimwards Howondaland and Assassins' School teacher-with-a-litupa. (note purple sash denoting teacher. Something of a maverick in that she favours dressing in veldt-chic and not in the approved black - with something she ''does'' call a big knife, and dressed in bush khaki as if she were at Home in the Gods' Own Country - she has points in common with Crocodile Dundee.) Or at least, a first draft of how she appears in my mind.<br />
<br />
More attempts to sketch and draw the Lady Assassins will follow. I have two in preparation, although both are ''completely'' non-canonical.</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:AgProv&diff=27466User:AgProv2017-06-28T08:36:22Z<p>AgProv: /* An Experiment: */</p>
<hr />
<div>Just to create the page! Male, too old, should have grown up gracefully but hasn't. Originally from the Flintshire region of [[Llamedos]] and functionally illiterate in several languages, including Welsh. (You know you're multi-lingual when you can pull off typos and spelling errors in more than one language).<br />
<br />
==Hmm. A Challenge.==<br />
just noticed the article count stands at 3,910. Another ninety articles will therefore get it up to 4,000. I have the Diaries and Yearbooks now, or most of them. And then there are quite a few redlinks to kill. Research beckons. Ninety new pages. Hmm. This may be doable.<br />
<br />
Did it! After an estimated 84 new articles and ten day's effort - seven or eight articles of the necessary 90 came from other people and just to be sure I went up to 4,001 - on Saturday 30th July 2016 with [[Dwarf Chocolate]]. As Old Dickens said, not the most palatable of topics, but there it was in the {{CDA}} as a previously overlooked snippet... chocolate looking and sounding suspiciously like Toblerone which is hard and unyielding enough to be used as a weapon of war and which, as a bonus, carries an advisory warning of May Contain Nuts. (Almonds... possibly the sort that interest the Assassins?)<br />
<br />
Can we make it 5,000 any time soon? Lots of scope with 1100 empty pages! (of which maybe 500 are feasible? After eliminating duplicates, extremely slight subject topics where you'd struggle to add three or four words, all those links to the German wiki, and the downright strange) and there are ''lots'' of odd corners in the published books which need to be explored.<br />
<br />
==A noble gift==<br />
[[File:A noble gift.jpeg|200px|thumb|left|A lot of Christmasses, all at once]]<br />
A noble and mighty gift. From a fan of my fanfic writings who wishes me to have the best research sources. I'd given up all hope of actually physically seeing any of these - so getting them in this condition and for free is generosity indeed! I won't embarrass the person by naming them as I suspect they contribute here under a pen-name. Suffice to say the gift is from a fine and lovely city in Kent, where pilgrims to the Cathedral have been fleeced and shaken down by the Guild of Priests and local Dibblers ever since Chaucer and before. And yes. I do know (1) my German is going to have to get a lot better so as to deal with the Assassins' Handbook; and (2) the informal price is my completion of at least two named fics. Consider this commenced. Thank you.<br />
<br />
==Hooray!==<br />
Just bought my copy of {{CDA}}. Any observations, annotations or flights of fancy will have to wait a few days, though. Herself basically said "go out and buy something for yourself that I can wrap up and say it's from me when we open presents in front of the family. You can go up to £25." How could I say no. Bought it, refrained from looking, presented it to herself for wrapping. Apart from this one fleeting glimpse I won't see it again till Friday. But something to look forward to on the day when surrounded by inlaws and outlaws!<br />
<br />
==just dumping this here==<br />
for now. Too tired and needing my bed. looks interesting:<br />
[http://backspindlegames.com/clacks/ New Discworld game]<br />
<br />
== Ac yn y Dysgfyd...==<br />
[[File:200px-Lleidr Amser.jpg]]<br />
Rwyf wedi prynu y llyfr hwn. Yr ydym yn trafod cyfieithiadau o Terry . Dylwn i ysgrifennu adolygiad . Rwy'n rhy ddiog ar hyn o bryd .<br />
<br />
I've bought this book . As we're discussing translations of Terry (albeit in Polish, for now). I should write a review . I'm too lazy at the moment. My time is indeed being stolen. "Gohuriaeth yw lleidr amser!"<br />
<br />
==Specific translation notes==<br />
It's interesting that time spent on newspapers and press release work trained Terry to write in short, pithy sentences (at least up to about {{UA}} and {{SOD4}}, when he got an urge to start rambling a bit). These lend themselves extraordinarily well to translation into Welsh - TP's deceptively simple, straightforward narrative style is a translator's gift. It's like "Basic English" only with a much expanded vocabulary. so far this is the only Welsh Discworld novel, so a lot of recurring characters, who don't appear in this book, don't have Welsh names yet - a Welsh-language wiki would be a very spare one. But a note or two on those who do...<br />
<br />
* '''''[[Nanny Ogg|Mam-Gu Ogg]]''''' There is more than one word for "grandmother" in Welsh. It's interesting Parri uses the South Wales version "Mamgu". (Maybe because this is as near to "standard Welsh" as it gets? North Wales uses the variant term "Nain", sometimes "Naini". Hell's bells, this is how English ''gets'' the word "Nanny"! Too obvious? Or perhaps as North Wales has more Welsh-speakers and is therefore the biggest market for this book, using a word from a different dialect of Welsh reinforces the notion that Lancre is slightly strange and isolated and backward compared to civilisation... I wonder how the Granny in "Granny Weatherwax" would be rendered, though. <br />
<br />
* '''''[[Myria LeJean|Myria Cath-Rawd]]'''''. Still puzzling this one out. The nearest straight or surface translation I can get for ''Cath-Rawd'' is ''many cats''. In English, "LeJean" is a hidden pun for "Legion", which appears in the Bible in Matthew 5:28 as the collective name of 6,000 demons who have turned one poor guy's mind into a tenement block. LeJean has to be a stealth pun which only becomes clear much later in the book means "Legion" in the Biblical sense - she is the first intrusion on the Auditors, who are legion, into the specifically human world in a human body. Just as the original Legion is cast out into a herd of pigs who then do a lemming off a cliff, Myria is "exorcised" from the human world by jumping onto a vat of chocolate. I'm wondering if the "many cats" thing refers to the proverbial impossibility of herding cats - thousands of self-willed independent creatures. The Auditors think and act with one mind - until they make the mistake of incarnating as people and discover individuality, and that it takes a particular frame of mind (which they haven't got) to "herd" all the individual drives, organs, hormones, instincts and directives that make a human body... there's no help in the Beibl story in Marc 5:9, where on being asked ''Beth yw dy enw?'', the demons reply ''Lleng yw fy enw; am fod llawer ohonom''. (Who are you?/Our name is Legion, for we are many.) Here the word for Legion is ''Lleng''.<br />
The German translation doesn't bother; [http://www.thediscworld.de/index.php/Myria_LeJean here] she is still Myria LeJean. She is also Dame Myria Ligion in the Disquemonde.<br />
<br />
==Just bought my copy of {{BS}}==<br />
And there is much to discuss. And to think I deliberately did not shell out £20 on the hard-back because I thought I'd read most of it before, elsewhere... £7.99 paperback.<br />
<br />
==An Experiment:==<br />
Thought about this for some time. Translation conventions for people, places, and things in the Discworld. Just experimenting: <br />
<br />
{|border="1"<br />
| '''''Concept in English'''''<br />
| '''Cymraeg'''<br />
| '''Francais'''<br />
| '''Nederlands/Afrikaans'''<br />
| '''Russian'''<br />
| '''''Comments'''''<br />
|- <br />
| Translation Credits:<br />
| [[Dyffrig Parri]]<br />
| [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Couton| Patrick Couton]<br />
| [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venugopalan_Ittekot| Venugopalan_Ittekot] (Ruurd Groot)<br />
| <br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]]<br />
| <br />
| Carotte Fondeurenfersson<br />
| Biet Yzergitersen<br />
|<br />
| "Biet" is Dutch for "beetroot"<br />
|-<br />
| [[Death|DEATH]]<br />
| ANGAU<br />
| LA MORT<br />
| DE DOOD <br />
|<br />
| <br />
|-<br />
| [[Death of Rats|DEATH OF RATS]]<br />
| ANGAU LLYGOD<br />
| LA MORT DES RATS<br />
| DE DOOD VAN RATTE<br />
|<br />
| Welsh translates as "Death of Mice" <br />
{{death|Squeak}}={{death|Couiiii}}(Fr)={{death|Gwich}}(W)<br />
|-<br />
| [[Granny Weatherwax]]<br />
|<br />
| Mémé Esmerélda Ciredutemps<br />
| Opoe/Ouma Wedersmeer<br />
| Babiushka Vetrovosk<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Magrat Garlick]]<br />
| <br />
| Magrat Goussedail<br />
|Magraat Knophlox<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Myria LeJean]]<br />
| Fonesig Myria Cath-Rawd<br />
| Dame Myria Ligion<br />
|<br />
|Welsh: Myria "Many-cats" ?<br />
Fr: Une Contrôleusse, Contrôlix <br />
|-<br />
| [[Nanny Ogg]]<br />
| Mamgu Ogg<br />
| Nounou Ogg<br />
| Ootje Nack <br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
| [[Sam Vimes]]<br />
| <br />
| Samuel Vimaire<br />
| Douwe Flinx<br />
|<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
<br />
==Life Imitates Art:==<br />
<br />
[[File:History of paint 006.JPG|200px|thumb|left|alt text]]<br />
Life imitates art! Totally independently of each other, Herself and Myself each picked a colour to redecorate the house with.... these are not going in the same room, btw, she wants a coral pink feature wall in one room, I'd quite like spearmint green in another... but here we bloody well are, pink and green again... Go, Dimmers!<br />
<br />
=={{SOD4}}==<br />
Trying to get into the new book. Really trying. The scientific bits are, as usual, challenging going, but once you grasp what they're getting at, it actually gets quite interesting. But the Discworld story, so far, is... well, lacklustre. It doesn't even feel as if he wrote it, if you see what I mean. It reads like second-division fan fic. The sort that isn't bad, tells a decent story, the characters are in context... but the author only gets the classic Terry Pratchett voice here and there in little flashes of brilliance. If anything, the Margery Dawes bits (and why does that make me think of Matt Lucas dragged up) read as if they're in the Felicity Boodle voice TP devised for {{TWOP}}. I really, really, hope it improves. <br />
<br />
Another little problem as I get further into the book: the balance is wrong. The science chapters are too long and the Discworld chapters are too short. Not. Enough. Discworld.<br />
<br />
And it used to be said about Terry that he avoided the "plots-r-us" school of dialogue. His dialogue between characters here not only appears to take the place of plot, the speeches are far too long. Dialogue sequences used to be short, pithy and bang-bang. Now there are whole paragraphs of character-led exposition. Rincewind does not sound like Rincewind; the Dean is not the Dean. What's gone wrong? Was Terry just content to write an outline script and then let others - Rob Williams or Rhianna Pratchett or both - fill in the details? There are moments of the old Pratchett genius - his description of how Vetinari can force a crowded room into silence just by sitting there is excellent - but there are just too few of them. So far.<br />
<br />
And Sally von Humpeding leaps straight from Lance-Constable to Captain without seemingly going through any intermediate ranks? Sorry, can't buy this. It took Angua years and even Carrot didn't make it all the way in one go.<br />
<br />
==Fan-art: a new venture.==<br />
<br />
[[File:Jsr final.jpg]]<br />
<br />
This is a visualisation of one of my original characters in fanfic, one of the new generation of teacher-Assassins brought into the Assassins' Guild school to deal with the influx of girl pupils. this is a first go at classroom monster and teaching veteran Joan Sanderson-Reeves, professional teacher and, until the Guild caught up with her, successful freelance poisoner. With long experience in administering unorthodox food additives and really exotic herbs and spices, she is now Domestic Science teacher to pupil Assassins. She appears in several of my stories and has a starring role in "Murder most 'Orrible". <br />
<br />
[[http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5423228/1/Murder-Most-Orrible]]<br />
<br />
("Domestic Science at the Assassins' School, where whether you add almond essence is truly a life-or-death choice. Joan the teacher confiscates a copy of the "Tanty Bugle". And her past comes up to meet her...")<br />
<br />
Drawn in pencil and coloured using MS Paint and Gimp.<br />
<br />
This is a link to a visualisation of one of my Discworld characters - well, Terry's character, really, but outside a name and a job description she's just a placeholder. For some reason I haven't been able to post my artwork here, but here's a link to it and thus to my portfolio on deviantArt:-<br />
<br />
[http://agprov.deviantart.com/art/Miss-Smith-Rhodes-Assassin-340680011 Johanna Smith-Rhodes, visualised and sketched by AgProv]<br />
<br />
[[File:JSR, final.jpg]]<br />
<br />
Not perfect, and with some glaring flaws, but now I have the bug I intend to so more to accompany the writings. As this is 95% my interpretation of the character and comes out of fanfic rather than canon, I have deliberately not placed this on the appropriate Wiki page. Drawn for the DeviantArt site and the Fanon Wiki, this is my interpretation of Terry's barely-there character Miss Smith-Rhodes. It hasn't ''quite'' got there and some aspects of the drawing are slightly out, but this is the adventuress from Rimwards Howondaland and Assassins' School teacher-with-a-litupa. (note purple sash denoting teacher. Something of a maverick in that she favours dressing in veldt-chic and not in the approved black - with something she ''does'' call a big knife, and dressed in bush khaki as if she were at Home in the Gods' Own Country - she has points in common with Crocodile Dundee.) Or at least, a first draft of how she appears in my mind.<br />
<br />
More attempts to sketch and draw the Lady Assassins will follow. I have two in preparation, although both are ''completely'' non-canonical.</div>AgProvhttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Magazines&diff=27458Magazines2017-06-23T22:48:00Z<p>AgProv: exanding</p>
<hr />
<div>A new phenomenon to the disc, these are crudely printed woodblock broadsheets produced in [[Ankh-Morpork]], all at the same address. Nothing is known about the company concerned but there is a distinct possibility that the name [[C.M.O.T. Dibbler]] is involved.<br />
<br />
Some specialist hobby magazines are self-published by enthusiasts, such as those catering for the pin-collecting craze. <br />
<br />
There are also religious polemics such as [[Unadorned Facts]], published by the [[Om]]nian religion and faithfully distributed door-to-door by missionary workers such as Constable [[Visit]] of the [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch]].<br />
<br />
The generally shoddy quality of Disc magazines seems about to take a long-needed step upwards. As a sideline from newspaper publishing, the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]] seems poised to start publishing specialist magazines, one named example being [[The Lady's Home Companion]], editress [[Sacharissa Cripslock]]. With the advent of reliable colour reproduction, a new phenomenon has arrived on the Disc: soft-core erotica of the [[Girls, Giggles and Garters]] persuasion. This is an unintended side-effect of the Times' press-dwarfs discovering the technology to make reproduction of colour iconographs reliably, and fairly speedily and quickly. No doubt, with their flair for business, [[Boddony]] and [[Gunilla Goodmountain|Goodmountain]] have entered a pragmatic arrangement with outside publishers to print anything to order - including ''G,G& G'' - so as to minimise down-time in between print runs of the times. <br />
<br />
Magazines known on the Disc include:<br />
<br />
*The Acuphile Digest<br />
*The [[Ankh-Morpork Literary Gazette and Paradigm Shifters' Monthly]]<br />
*Back Alley Pins (for the ''adult'' connisseur). Also referred to in {{CAM}} as ''[[Back Street Pins]]''<br />
*the [[Battle Cry]]<br />
*[[Beaks and Talons]]<br />
*[[Beginning Pins]](a part-work with a new pin every week)<br />
*[[Bows and Ammo]]<br />
*[[Bu-Bubble]]<br />
* the [[Burleigh and Spoke]] Fully Illustrated Catalogue, which may be posted under a plain brown wrapper. <br />
* Care And Nutrition For Swamp Dragons<br />
*Extreme Pins<br />
*Fang & Fire<br />
*[[Girls, Giggles and Garters]]<br />
*Golem spotter Weekly<br />
*[[The Lady's Home Companion]]<br />
*[[The Lady's Home Companion|The Ladies' Own Magazine]]<br />
*Modern Pins<br />
*New Pins<br />
*Pins and Pinneries<br />
*Pins Extra<br />
*Pins International<br />
*Pins Monthly <br />
*Pin Times<br />
*Pins World<br />
*Popular Armour<br />
*Practical Pins<br />
*[[Practical Siege Weapons]]<br />
*[[Slab]]<br />
* Stanley Howler's Stamp Monthly<br />
*'''Stifte!''' (imported from [[Überwald]])<br />
*Talking Pins<br />
*The [[Tanty Bugle]]<br />
*[[Total Pins]] (ed. [[Stanley]])<br />
*[[Unadorned Facts]]<br />
*[[Warrior of Fortune]]<br />
*[[What Gallows]]<br />
*World Pin<br />
*World of Pins<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Of course, with the burgeoning craze for [[stamps]], it could be the case that many of the pin-related magazines are now defunct for lack of readership...<br />
<br />
Possible titles discussed by William de Worde and Sacharissa Cripslock:-<br />
<br />
*''Completely Cake''<br />
*''Completely Cats''<br />
*''Completely Knitting''<br />
*''Completely Men''<br />
*''Completely Women''<br />
<br />
<br />
==Annotation==<br />
<br />
When [[Moist von Lipwig]] goes into [[Dave's Pin Exchange]] to look for a copy of [[Total Pins]], in order to find the right levers to allow him to get a grip on the mind of [[Stanley]], so as to to get ''one'' of the postmen on his side, a comic exchange ensues. This is reminiscent of those classic comedy sketches which depend on the funny man going through an extensive catalogue of products, for the benefit of the straight man. Think of Mel Smith's Geordie barman in '''Not the Nine O'Clock News''', who when asked for "a pint of lager" by Gryff Rhys Jones, takes so long to go through all the available choices (forty or fifty increasingly improbably named lagers, served via bottle, glass, or aerosol) that the Time bell rings, and the hapless Jones doesn't get a drink at all.<br />
<br />
Or consider Michael Palin going through all the cheeses that ''aren't'' in stock, to an increasingly exasperated John Cleese... so it is with Pinhead Dave, listing all the available pin-fanciers' magazines at such length that Moist drifts off, somewhat concussed, in the middle of the recitation.<br />
<br />
:<br />
[[Category:Discworld culture]]<br />
[[de:Zeitungen]]</div>AgProv