http://wiki.lspace.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Old+Dickens&feedformat=atomDiscworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T20:15:58ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.40.0http://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Perdore&diff=35252Perdore2024-03-24T02:46:22Z<p>Old Dickens: File:Perdore.jpg NLA</p>
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Brother Perdore is a member of the [[Nine Day Wonderers]], a religious order in the [[Ramtops]] Mountains. It is lucky he is such a mild-mannered old codger as his extended parish has a huge concentration of witches - who do not, in general, take kindly to being told what to do or how to live.<br />
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He was supposed to be conducting the naming ceremony of Princess [[Esmerelda Margaret Note Spelling of Lancre]], but broke both his legs falling off a donkey coming from [[Skund]]. If that seems impossible, note that the donkey was 60 feet up a cliff at the time.<br />
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[[category:Discworld characters|Perdore, Brother]]<br />
[[category:Human characters|Perdore, Brother]]<br />
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[[de:Perdore]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Discworld_%26_Pratchett_Wiki:Mended_Drum&diff=35251Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum2024-03-18T16:59:07Z<p>Old Dickens: archived</p>
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<div>&nbsp;'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''<br />
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<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions. <br />
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Archives<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]] <br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]] <br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]<br />
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==AI content and fan project promotion==<br />
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
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::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR><br />
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.<br />
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::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile><br />
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==Atom==<br />
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
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==Spamagain==<br />
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Discworld_%26_Pratchett_Wiki:Mended_Drum/Archive_8&diff=35250Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 82024-03-18T16:51:24Z<p>Old Dickens: new archive</p>
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<div><div class="usermessage">This is an Archived Discussion Page. If you wish to comment on any of these threads please do so at [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]. All new threads should be started there. Thank you.</div><br />
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==Well, that hurts==<br />
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])<br />
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
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==New staff==<br />
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators:<BR><br />
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and<BR><br />
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<BR><br />
And belatedly, having opened his email:<BR><br />
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.<br />
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
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::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==<br />
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'')<BR><br />
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space.<BR><br />
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Down time==<br />
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Those missing facilities==<br />
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==CQ Vade Mecum==<br />
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.<br />
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better<br />
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Page count==<br />
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports:<BR><br />
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." <BR>It gives the error code <br />
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Rejects==<br />
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Test==<br />
Editing appears to work.<br />
: Does editing still work?<br />
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))<br />
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Server Move==<br />
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Everything okay?==<br />
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC) <br />
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]<br />
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back?<BR><br />
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Annotations (again)==<br />
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<BR>Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.<br />
<br />
:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==...and then==<br />
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?<br />
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Repeated annotations ==<br />
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Re-hash==<br />
''Recalled from the archives:''<BR><br />
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:<br />
<br />
i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;<br />
<br />
ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.<br />
<br />
iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.<br />
<br />
iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.<br />
<br />
v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.<br />
<br />
vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.<br />
<br />
vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.<br />
<br />
--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
Some guidelines for annotators?<br />
<br />
Useful annotations:<BR><br />
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).<br />
<br />
Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.<br />
<br />
Useless annotations:<br />
<br />
The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich.<BR><br />
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.)<BR><br />
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?<br />
<br />
--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.” <br />
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!<br />
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.<br />
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==That was interesting==<br />
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Discworld_%26_Pratchett_Wiki:Mended_Drum&diff=35246Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum2024-03-14T16:34:29Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
<hr />
<div>&nbsp;'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''<br />
<br />
<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions. <br />
<br />
Archives<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]] <br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]] <br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]<br />
</div><br />
<br />
<br />
==Well, that hurts==<br />
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])<br />
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==New staff==<br />
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators:<BR><br />
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and<BR><br />
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<BR><br />
And belatedly, having opened his email:<BR><br />
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.<br />
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==<br />
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'')<BR><br />
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space.<BR><br />
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Down time==<br />
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Those missing facilities==<br />
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==CQ Vade Mecum==<br />
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.<br />
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better<br />
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Page count==<br />
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports:<BR><br />
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." <BR>It gives the error code <br />
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Rejects==<br />
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Test==<br />
Editing appears to work.<br />
: Does editing still work?<br />
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))<br />
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Server Move==<br />
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Everything okay?==<br />
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC) <br />
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]<br />
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back?<BR><br />
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Annotations (again)==<br />
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<BR>Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
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Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.<br />
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:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==...and then==<br />
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?<br />
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Repeated annotations ==<br />
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Re-hash==<br />
''Recalled from the archives:''<BR><br />
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:<br />
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i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;<br />
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ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.<br />
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iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.<br />
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iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.<br />
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v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.<br />
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vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.<br />
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vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.<br />
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--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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Some guidelines for annotators?<br />
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Useful annotations:<BR><br />
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).<br />
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Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.<br />
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Useless annotations:<br />
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The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich.<BR><br />
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.)<BR><br />
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?<br />
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--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)<br />
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Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.” <br />
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!<br />
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.<br />
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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==That was interesting==<br />
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
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==AI content and fan project promotion==<br />
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
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::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR><br />
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.<br />
<br />
::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile><br />
<br />
==Atom==<br />
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
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==Spamagain==<br />
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35241User:Old Dickens2024-03-11T01:14:28Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
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There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
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Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
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==Bridge==<br />
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'''С'''лава Україні!<br />
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==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=35240Talk:Main Page2024-03-09T19:48:05Z<p>Old Dickens: Reverted edits by JACK223 (talk) to last revision by Old Dickens</p>
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<div>'''For discussion prior to The Long Drive (2012), see [[Talk:Main Page/Archive1]].'''<br />
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== Where to post other works referring to Terry Pratchett and Discworld? ==<br />
Sorry if this isn't where such things are supposed to be discussed, but is there a place to post games which refer to Terry Pratchett? Something like [[Reading suggestions]] or [[Webcomic and Graphic Novel Suggestions]], but for games? I recently played one called [http://www.kramsdesign.com/games/annas-quest/ Anna's Quest], and not only do I think it would appeal to other readers, but it even has a "in memory of Terry Pratchett" in the credits! --[[User:Varriount|Varriount]] 01:21, 2 August 2015 (EST)<br />
:No, this isn't the place...see [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6#Namespaces]] and [[Bibliography#Gaming]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)<br />
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==Updating the Main Page without The Author==<br />
Today's addition of "or about" was a useful idea. I was just about to ask what to do with that section and "Breaking news": trim the five-year-old stuff or archive as much as possible? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:11, 13 January 2017 (UTC)<br />
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== Main Page ==<br />
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I have changed the original category: WikiData, and replaced it with: Main Page. -- [[User:DCool1|DCool1]] ([[User talk:DCool1|talk]]) 15:55, 22 July 2019 (UTC)<br />
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==Archive?==<br />
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] asks about an archive for the Main Page. We've always deleted the old to make room for the new, relying on the history, but he could do that instead. Any other opinions? (See second section above.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Hmmm...you make a good point about the history. I think the things I've been uncertain about are that we don't have an agreed definition of how recent "breaking news" should be, and that there are some news items (PTerry's death, the steamroller) that seem like they should stay on the page. But maybe it's time to move those important ones somewhere else? As for the timeframe, do we want to keep stuff from the last six months? Or maybe just the X number of most recent annoucements? A guideline like that would make deciding what to keep much easier. I do think the front page would benefit from a bit of pruning... And the same things go for the publications section. [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 13:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)<br />
"How long" probably depends on the significance: the death announcement should remain, the over-long section on 50 Years of Terry and much of the rest that's over a year old need to go somewhere. Where, though? Do you want to make an archive? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Maybe we don't need a news archive per se, but just to put the info that's of lasting interest on an appropriate page before deleting it. For example, I think there's room for a [[50 Years of Terry]] page that just lists all the publications and projects that are part of it, which would mean we could get rid of the long news item. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Okay, based on that principle, I've done a bit of a clean-up of the front page. I added a subsection for significant Pratchett events at the bottom of the news, for stuff that should stay on the front page, and then deleted anything else that was more than a year old. (I would advocate for changing "breaking news" to "recent news".) I also did a bit of a clean up on the list of publications, though there are some older ones that should probably stay there too, and some others to be added, since its a busy year. I moved some of the stuff I got rid of to appropriate other pages, most notably news of the delay of {{UDC}}. I'll have another go soon, but let me know what you think of this? I think the definition list format works really well for a list of dates like this. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 13:14, 23 September 2022 (UTC) <br />
:::Looks fine; "recent news" makes more sense. Now if only the page counter worked. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)<br />
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This page, now, wants an archive. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Turning_Point_Power_Station&diff=35237Turning Point Power Station2024-03-06T05:30:01Z<p>Old Dickens: clean infobox</p>
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<div>{{Building Data<br />
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|name=Turning Point Power Station<br />
|location=100 miles from [[Tadfield]]<br />
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The '''Turning Point Power Station''' was a nuclear power plant in {{GO}}. It is insignificant except for the fact the it somehow managed to keep producing four hundred and twenty megawatts despite the fact that its five hundred tons of uranium vanished into thin air and were replaced by a single lemon drop. The 3:00 A.M. shift engineer is named [[Horace Gander]]. <br />
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[[Category:Good Omens]]<br />
[[Category:Locations]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:Unseen_Academicals/Annotations&diff=35236Book:Unseen Academicals/Annotations2024-03-06T05:21:07Z<p>Old Dickens: dead link</p>
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<div>== [[Book:Unseen Academicals|Unseen Academicals]] Annotations ==<br />
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General:- <br />
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It has been suggested that the opening pages of the book, in which Rudolf Scattering, night-watchman at the Royal Art Museum receives a nasty surprise, is a deliberate parody of Dan Brown's mystery thrillers of the ''Da Vinci Code'' genre. <br />
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[[Pedestriana]] - the plucky barefoot Goddess of Football. According to the Guardian, (edition of 30/12/09), in an article on the weird compulsion of men to collect, in this case a man with a desire to own a match programme for ''every'' game ever played by London side Tottenham Hotspur. The newspaper reproduces the front cover of the 1921 F.A. Cup Final programme, which features...guess what... a robed and barefoot Goddess of Football, the winged angel standing bare of foot atop the ball... documentary evidence, hopefully, will follow.<br />
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The name ''Dimwell'' seems close to ''Millwall'', area and football club in London noted for the belligerence of their supporters. House chant: <br />
''Nobody loves us. And we don't care!'' Once combined an away visit to Manchester City with looting jeweller's shops on Wilmslow Road whilst the police were marching them to the ground. Two thousand fans overwhelmed three coppers and in the subsequent Shove, managed to gut a jewellers.<br />
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Dimwell, like Millwall for London, is a dockside area that must provide most of Ankh-Morpork's stevedores, dockers and longshoremen. In fact: one of Andy Shanks' associates shares out the bounty at one point - of loose goods purloined while working a casual shift at the docks, unloading an incoming ship. <br />
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There are a fair number of "Lord of the Rings" references in "Unseen Academicals." Is [[micromail]] (see reference in article for alternative in sci-fi/fantasy) a reference to Frodo's mithril shirt? A metal called "moonsilver" is cited by Pepe as being a major component of micromail - "moonsilver" is a translation of the elvish "mithril". <br />
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A recurring theme throughout the book is Mr Nutt's search for ''worth''. This leads him to many uncomfortable, even dangerous, places, and involves mental and emotional anguish, at one point a near-Death experience. <br />
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Later in the book, he has the Margolotta-guided insight that the worth he seeks is not a property of deeds or created things, but an ongoing process of creation. <br />
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This echoes the quest of the narrator of Robert M. Pirsig's work of popular philosophy, '''''Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance''''', who undergoes similar travails in search of elusive ''quality'' only to realise it isn't so much a ''thing'' as an ongoing ''process''. {{SM}} apart, there are no motorbikes on the Discworld. Pirsig's character grounds himself via looking after his motorcycle - but Mr Nutt is an accomplished amateur blacksmith who succeeds in re-shoeing the most difficult horse on the Quirm Flyer (horses are as near as the Disc gets, in general?)<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.11)''' '''''Speaking of Glenda's teddy bear, Mr. Wobble. "Traditionally, in the lexicon of pathos, such a bear should have only one eye, but as the result of a childhood error in Glenda's sewing, he has three, and is more enlightened than the average bear."'''''<br />
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The picnic basket-stealing cartoon character, Yogi Bear, is frequently described as "smarter than the average bear." It is also a reference to "opening one's third eye", a feature of several spiritual traditions, usually having to do with gaining insight into the workings of the universe. The word "yogi" can also mean a practitioner of some of these traditions.<br />
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'''(Corgi paperback, UK, p28)''' '''''Hunting the Megapode''''' The Roundworld equivalent, {{wp|Wren_Day|The Hunting of the Wrens}}, is forgotten almost as totally as the Discworld version. The {{wp|Megapode|megapode}} is a real bird, whose name appropriately enough means "Bigfoot". The Megapode Hunt may also refer to the Oxford tradition of Hunting the Mallard, as suggested in The Culture of Discworld. <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p27)''' '''''"in most cases the minutes could be written beforehand"''''' Ponder Stibbons' technique for creating minutes of Faculty meetings is, in purpose and execution, identical to standard British Civil Service policy. (As described in the great satire of government life, '''Yes, Prime Minister''', in which Sir Humphrey Appleby is an adept at predicting in advance how a meeting will work out and can quite safely dictate the minutes in advance.)<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p36)''' '''''"No one could have been neutral when the Dark War had engulfed Far Überwald"'''''. A sideways reference to Tolkien's {{wp|Middle-earth|Middle-earth}}, perhaps, especially in the light of Mr Nutt's [[Orcs|species]] and their perceived role in the Dark War of antiquity. '''''"Alas, when the time came to write down their story, his people hadn't even got a pencil"'''''. Unlike more favoured races who had time and liberty to craft entire ''Red Books of Westmarch'' to get their side of the story out first... the Dark War is referred to on page 58 by Vetinari and on page 60 by Ridcully, where Vetinari likens the playing pieces on the Thud board to the Dark Hordes, in their lack of free will and their having been crafted for a single purpose - to fight. Ridcully reflects on what "the monsters" had been bred to do, and wonders what became of the thousands upon thousands of ''them'' who were bred to fight. Also, re-referencing Middle-earth, Treebeard speculates that Saruman had crossbred Orcs and Men, which he calls "a black evil", to create the {{wp|Uruk-hai|Uruk-hai}}, perfect fighting machines to fight in a war that engulfs a large area of land... Vetinari himself notes that it wasn't Igoring goblins that produced orcs, but using humans, in whom the natural capacity for violence and evil is so much greater. There's also a slight resonance with the original Tolkien orcs which were created when (Middle-earthen) elves were betrayed and corrupted. In neither case are they natural creatures - they have been twisted into these shapes through evil intent. In the Jackson film version of the LOTR, they are even ''more'' "bred": the Uruk-hai are dug from the ground in a grotesque birthing sequence. There is a reference to the spawning of Orcs from the ground earlier in the book, where Nutt is contemplating the tallow vats, permanently bubbling and seething, (as per the film) as a place where he finds himself feeling safe and peaceful in an odd and nursery-like way. ''People in the streets had jeered to him that he'd been made in a vat. Although Brother Oats had told him that this was silly, the gently bubbling tallow had called to him. He felt at peace here.'' ('''p33''')<br />
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It is also worth noting that the phrase '''''"No one could have been neutral..."''''' has associations when one ponders the evolution of the fantasy fiction novel. J.R.R. Tolkien's master work has a rather simplistic two-dimensional ''"you are either Good or Evil and that's all there is to it.''" feel about the morality and the motivation of characters. As Tolkien's Middle Earth was heavily influenced by Tolkien's Christianity, and the notion that all that is Good comes of faith in and duty to God, while all that is Evil comes of rejection of God and joining in the Fall, this dichotomy excludes a Third Way. <br />
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The Third Way is introduced by fantasy writer Michael Moorcock, who thought about the mechanics involved, and came up with a moral picture drawn as much from science as from mysticism. Moorcock, drawing his cue from the scientific laws of thermodynamics, insisted the primal struggle in the Multiverse was not between Good and Evil but between the opposed forces of Law and Chaos. After making that primal alignment, a character was free to make a secondary alignment with Good, Evil or the third state - '''''Neutral''''' - as he or she pleased. <br />
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Being of the Law does not necessarily mean you are Good - consider the [[Auditors]] - and being of Chaos does not necessarily mean you are Evil. Consider Ronnie [[Soak]].<br />
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Moorcock's system offers so much choice and scope for delineating more complex three-dimensional characters that [[Dungeons and Dragons]] creator Gary Gygax adopted it wholesale. But here, in the Discworld, we are being explicitly told it is not an option - '''''"No one could have been Neutral when the Dark War had engulfed Far Überwald"''''' The Dark War takes its referents, therefore, from Tolkien and not Moorcock/Gygax. <br />
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('''''More Here:- [[http://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Reading_suggestions&section=32]]. Ref.''''' author Mary Gentle and book "''Grunts''". In which a captured Orc is heavily laden with chains and secured to an anvil in the hope that this renders it dormant.)<br />
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Mary Gentle, like Neil Gaiman, is the subject of a dedication of an earlier Discworld book (the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]] consisted of her and several others from the new wave of British sci-fi/fantasy, including Neil). ''Two'' previous Discworld novels, in fact: she gets an explicit personal dedication in {{G!G!}}. It would seem logical then, that TP is aware of her writing and has perhaps referenced it in the Discworld. <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p45)''' '''''Ridcully swayed backwards, like a man subjected to an attack by a hitherto comatose sheep'''''<br />
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In the UK House of Commons in June 1978 the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer was Denis Healey. <br />
He described being attacked in June 1978 by mild mannered Conservative shadow Chancellor Geoffrey Howe as ''"like being savaged by a dead sheep".''<br />
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Such an attack can be lethal if timed right. The selfsame Sir Geoffrey Howe, formerly a fawning loyalist, lost his temper in 1990 and launched a bitter and scathing speech to a packed Commons that contributed to the downfall of the previously unassailable Margaret Thatcher. Within a fortnight of Howe's attack - again likened to that of a dead sheep - she was gone, deposed as PM. <br />
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'''(Harper Paperback, p43)''' '''''most number of goals scored by one man in his whole life is four. That was Dave Likely, of course'''''<br />
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Four goals in football was the claim to fame of Al Bundy, of Married with Children (though Bundy's were touchdowns in gridiron football), which has a certain resonance with Trevor Likely's relationship with his father, whom he sees as not valuable apart from his legendary status in football.<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p46)''' '''''-How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless Dean'''''<br />
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Shakespeare is being paraphrased here. King Lear's furious and anguished speech of betrayal on being (apparently) rejected by an ungrateful child, despite everything he has done for her, in which he at first wishes infertility on her, and then<br />
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''If she must teem,'' <br />
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''Create her child of spleen; that it may live,'' <br />
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''And be a thwart disnatured torment to her!''<br />
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''Let it stamp wrinkles in her brow of youth;'' <br />
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''With cadent tears fret channels in her cheeks;'' <br />
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''Turn all her mother's pains and benefits'' <br />
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''To laughter and contempt; that she may feel'' <br />
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'''''How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is''''' <br />
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'''''To have a thankless child!''''' ''Away, away!''<br />
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from '''''King Lear''''' [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/188900.html]<br />
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Other Shakeperian references, filtered on the Discworld through the prolific pen of the dwarf [[Hwel]], occur on '''''page 167''''', where Ridcully and Stibbons are considering the ball that goes ''gloing!'' (''There are more things in Heaven and Disc than are dreamed of in our philosophies...'').<br />
And on '''''page 387,''''', where Glenda and Mr Nutt go to the theatre to witness a Hix-suggested production by the [[Dolly Sisters Players]], called '''''Starcrossed''''', also written by Hwel. This not only continues the ''Romeo and Juliet'' motif running through the book, it is explicitly described as ''one of the great romantic plays of the last fifty years''. In our timescale, the Bernstein/Sondheim musical '''''West Side Story''''', where the plot of ''Romeo and Juliet'' is updated to warring city street gangs, was first performed in 1957, making it 52 years old.<br />
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I don't think it's pressing things too far to suggest that the evil Dr Hix's love of amateur dramatics might be a sly dig at one CMOT Briggs...<br />
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Another piece of Python-esque British humour that can be referenced here is the classic radio comedy sketch performed by the ''Son of Cliché'' troupe (including a very young and pre-Arnold Rimmer comedian called Christopher Barrie), in which the FA Cup final of 1982 is re-written as though it were a Shakesperian play of the heroic ''Henry V'' genre being performed at London's National Theatre. <br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.49)''' '''''"Just speak with a little more class, eh? You don't have to sound like--"'''''<br />
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'''''"My fare, lady?"'''''<br />
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Referring to "My Fair Lady" where street flower seller Eliza Doolittle improves her cockney speech to the point where she's taken for a fine lady at an embassy ball.<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p51)''' '''''"Miss Healstether found him a book on scent"'''''. Mr Nutt's early life, education and reception by his peers is reminiscent of that of the character Grenouille in Patrick Süskind's novel '''''Perfume''''', who is similarly scorned, hated, and making his way up (or at least across) from the bottom. It is also worth noting that Grenouille was raised by a priest, for at least part of his life, and was effectively chained to a Hell-like cellar apprenticeship until offered opportunity to better himself. Like Steerpike in Gormenghast, (another literary anti-hero who has a similar early life), Grenouille finally becomes a manipulative monster with a sinister power over people...<br />
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'''Football team colours''' - from Wikipedia:-<br />
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*The leader in the Giro d'Italia cycle race wears a pink jersey (''maglia rosa''); this reflects the distinctive pink-colored newsprint of the sponsoring Italian La Gazzetta dello Sport newspaper. <br />
*The University of Iowa's Kinnick Stadium visitors' locker room is painted pink. The decor has sparked controversy, perceived by some people as suggesting sexism and homophobia. <br />
* Palermo, a soccer team based in Palermo, Italy, traditionally wears pink home jerseys. <br />
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Palermo is also the heart of Mafia and Machismo country, in Sicily: presumably they have transcended the whole pink thing as immaterial. <br />
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The Hungarian international strip appears to be red and green with pink trim. <br />
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The Liseberg district of Gothenberg in Sweden hosts three soccer clubs. The local city colours are pink and green, which goes back to mediaeval times, but alas none of the three clubs plays in them. <br />
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One manufacturer of soccer favours markets a pink-and-green scarf, but regrettably there's no clue as to which club it is associated with.<br />
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In many cities in the North of England, in pre-Internet and pre-Sky TV days, there would be a late edition of the Saturday evening paper, carrying nothing but the final sports results of the day, and it would be printed on pink paper. (Except in Sheffield, where for some reason it was the Sporting Green). Pink and Green again...<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p52)''' '''''Miss Healstether sounded bitter. "Stand by then, because he's discovered the [[Bonk School]]."'''''<br />
This is the Discworld equivalent of later German/Austrian philosophers such as Wittgenstein. On Roundworld, the Vienna School is also a collective name used for the emergent psychoanalysts of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, such as Freud, Jung and Adler, whose works are often taught in university philosophy departments for want of anywhere less controversial to pigeon-hole them. This leads to several amusingly entertaining associations: given Mr Nutt's later destiny as football team manager, with the more reflective, introverted and philosophical sort of squad boss such as Sven-Göran Eriksson. There are also echoes of famously philosophical players, such as the Manchester United and France star Eric Cantona, an interview with whom could easily befuddle the average back-page journalist, as Cantona was (and is) fond of peppering interviews with philosophical ''apercus''. Also, need we mention the classic Monty Python sketch where the whole of the German and Greek international football teams are made up of their nations' respective star philosophers? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiZt79UKUFQ] The one exception in the German team, who deserves mention for going along with the joke, is the then West German national football team captain Franz Beckenbauer, who appears on the field looking frustrated at the philosophical reflection and lack of football going on around him. <br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p53)''' '''''"They are the ones who go on about what happens if ladies don't get enough mutton, and they say cigars are--"<br />
"That is a fallacy!"'''''<br />
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Sigmund Freud, when asked if his cigar was a phallic symbol, is supposed to have said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."<br />
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A similar phallus/fallacy joke has appeared in a previous Discworld book in reference to witches' broomsticks.<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p67)''' '''''"They're two teams alike in villainy."'''''<br />
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Prologue to "Romeo and Juliet" "Two households, both alike in dignity..." It could also be an example of football commentators' random (if sometimes intellectual) phrases... <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p70)''' '''''"But I'm a Face, right?"'''''. Trevor Likely's proud assertion of his status in the ranks of the Dimmers, and his being known throughout all the Boroughs, reflects British soccer hooligan counter-culture where the leaders, best fighters, and other notorious individuals in the various Firms are known as Faces. The term was also used by counter-cultural young male gangs in the 1950's and 1960's: Teddy Boys in the 50's, and Mods and Rockers in the 60's, most notorious gang members and hardest fighters were called Faces. In the latter case - 1960's scooter mods - there is even a musical about it: the Who's rock opera ''Quadrophenia'', about London Mods. The Who also had an early single called called ''I'm the Face'', written for them by their then-manager Peter Meaden, who had also changed their name to The High Numbers. The single, an attempt to appeal to the mod audience, flopped, The High Numbers changed managers again and reverted to being The Who. <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p73)''' ''''' 'Gentlemen' Ridcully began ...'or should I say, fellow workers by hand and brain' '''''<br />
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'Workers by hand and brain' is a key phrase in original Clause IV for the British Labour Party. This was written by Beatrice and Sidney Webb, leading members of the Fabian Society.<br />
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''To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service''<br />
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Clause IV was revised (not abolished) in 1995.<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p80)'''. With regard to the makeover of Professor Hicks into the University's licensed evil wizard. In his physical description and general attitude, is there a certain sly reference creeping in to the teaching wizards of Slytherin House, in a certain J.K. Rowling's fantasies about a school of wizardry? Or, indeed, to a certain Dark Lord whose name cannot be uttered, save that it most coincidentally also begins with a "V"? And all this is in the context a of a sport which wizards must learn to love (if only to stop their cornucopia drying up and the flow of big dinners ebbing to a trickle.) A sport which most categorically must be played within agreed rules, with no magic ''at all'' being used, which involves getting a resolutely un-magical ball into a goal. Anyone for Quidditch, whoops sorry, Foot-the-Ball? Interestingly, when Ridcully is temporarily possessed by the shade of PE master Evans the Striped, it is Hix who performs a crude but effective exorcism with the knob on the end of his staff. What might Hix be able to reveal about the act of insorcism that put Evans' soul in there in the first place? <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p87)''': ''Glenda would have followed him like a homing vulture'' A reference to ex-Python Michael Palin's gritty slice of Northern working-class life, ''The Testing of Eric Olthwaite'', in which the little-known Northern English sport of racing homing vultures is discussed at great length. It is possible one of Reg Bag's prize homing vultures was called ''Glenda''. <br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p107)''' '''''"I just happened to be holding a knife. You are holding a knife.We hold knives. This is a kitchen."'''''<br />
<br />
Reminiscent of "The Lion in Winter", where Queen Elanor says "Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 and we're barbarians!"<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p113)''' '''''"Oh, Mr Trevor Likely" said Glenda, folding her arms. "Just one question: who ate all the pies?"'''''<br />
<br />
This is a classic chant to be heard across British football grounds. Fans tend to be merciless to a player perceived as having fallen from the pinnacle of physical fitness and to have put weight on, in the form of visible fat. The full chant, aimed at the luckless fat boy, runs: ''Who ate all the pies? Who ate all the pies? '''''You''''' fat bastard, '''''you''''' fat bastard, you ate all the pies!'' (tune: '''Knees up, Mother Brown'''). Footballers thus singled out for dietary advice from the terraces have included England's idiot savant and flawed genius, Paul Gascoigne.<br />
<br />
A charming piece of trivia. ''Who ate all the pies?'' is quite possibly the oldest known fan chant to have been continuously sung on English terraces. It was born in honour of {{wp|William_Foulke_(footballer)|William Henry "Fatty" Foulke}}, the legendary Sheffield United goalkeeper whose playing career spanned 1894-1910. Six foot two and a svelte twelve stone at the start of his career, he was an early victim of success and the extravagant professional footballer lifestyle (Edwardian style). By 1902, he was estimated to weigh twenty-five stones (350 pounds) ''and was still playing top-level football.'' His Sheffield United faithful sang it in his honour, albeit without the "you fat bastard" line. You wonder if Terry was aware of this when he wrote the character of the Ankh United goalkeeper, who is seen eating and gorging his way through the big game...<br />
:Rotund, pie-eating keepers are still seen, at least in the National League, but the Association is clamping down...see [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/sports/soccer/wayne-shaw-sutton-soccer-pie.html Wayne Shaw]. <br />
<br />
'''(Harper Paperback, p118)''' '''''Its surgeons were even known to wash their hands before operating as well as after'''''<br />
<br />
This makes the standard of care at Lady Sybil's relatively advanced compared to other Ankh-Morpork technology. Handwashing did not become common in European & American medicine until the second half of the 19th century.<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.122)''' '''''Robert Scandal's famous poem, "Oi! To his Deaf Mistress".'''''<br />
<br />
Refers to Andrew Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress".<br />
<br />
Also '''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p122)''' '''''Nutt was technically an expert on love poetry throughout the ages... he had tried to discuss it with Ladyship, but she had laughed and said that it was frivolity, although quite useful as a tutorial on the art of vocabulary, scansion rhythm, and affect as a means to an end, to wit, getting a young lady to take all her clothes off.'''''<br />
<br />
This is suspiciously reminiscent of Sigismundo Celine's reflections on romantic poetry, in guerrilla ontologist Robert Anton Wilson's '''''The historical Illuminatus: The Widow's Son'''''. In which the wunderkind Celine, imprisoned in the Bastille, passes time by reading the prison library. He decides about love poems that <br />
<br />
''they mostly argue the case that a Certain Woman is like a certain Natural Phenomenon (sunlight, stars, birds, flowers, et c) and that the poet's heart, in response to this fact, was like another Natural Phenomenon (parched desert, wounded animal, dark cave, et c) and that there was only one natural resolution to this natural conjunction of natural phenomena. He gathered that she would have to take her clothes off.'' (p. 149 R.A.Wilson, '''''The Widow's Son''''', Lynx Books, New York, pub. 1985) For more Wilson and hints on other ways his thoughts and ideas might have filtered through Pratchett's brain and into Discworld, see Reading Suggestions). <br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.124)''' '''''[S]omeone at the Royal Art Museum had found the urn in an old storeroom, and it contained scrolls which, it said here, had the original rules of foot-the-ball laid down in the early years of the century of the Summer Weevil, a thousand years ago, when the game was played in honour of the goddess Pedestriana.'''''<br />
<br />
As gods and religion are involved, it may be of note that a similar incident is described in the Bible, specifically in 2 Kings Ch. 22. Supposedly, a "Book of the Law" was found in the Temple, dating back centuries to Moses himself, but which had somehow been lost. As the book described rules that were in the best interests of the Temple and the priests there, scholars who aren't Biblical fundamentalists generally suspect that the ancient book (likely an early version of what we now call Deuteronomy) had been recently composed.<br />
<br />
This being the Discworld, this book of rules apparently is ancient ''and'' has just been composed.<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p135)''' '''''"Good point, well put," said Ridcully, "and I shall marshal my responses thusly." He flicked a finger and, with a smell of gooseberries and a pop, a small red globe appeared in the air over the table.'''''<br />
<br />
Is this a magical powerpoint demonstration?<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p158)''' '''''"Dolly Sisters, right? Sounds like the Botney Street area. I'm sure of it". said Pépé ''''' This is in the crab-bucket discourse, about how people from lowly areas with big ideas are beaten back into thinking small by their peers. <br />
<br />
Satirical magazine '''''Private Eye''''' once revealed a secret about BBC Arts supremo, talking head on the gentler, more refined, things in life, and broadcasting giant, Alan Yentob. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Yentob] Although Yentob adamantly denies it, the Eye revealed that he was born in lowly circumstances in East London as Alan ''Botney'', and reversed his surname for professional reasons to make it look more interesting and artsy. Yentob/Botney has refrained, however, from suing the Eye for libel over this assertion. Is this a hidden reason for Terry's naming a street in Lobbin Clout after him? <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p167)''' '''''"You gave the ball a mighty kick, Mister Stibbons, and yet you are, by your own admission, a wet and a weed."'''''<br />
Molesworth, a schoolboy and the narrating character in a series of books by Geoffrey Willans, would consistently refer to his brother, Molesworth 2, as "a wet and a weed."<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p198)''' '''''"Owlspring-Tips diagram"'''''<br />
<br />
The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung%E2%80%93Russell_diagram Herzsprung-Russell diagram] is used in astronomy to plot the absolute magnitude of stars against their spectral class.<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p201)''' '''''"That's right, of course" said the former Dean. "Your father was a butcher, as I recall".'''''<br />
Later on, there is explicit mention of the large, strong, hands Ridcully inherited from his butcher father. <br />
There is a continuity problem here: when Ridcully first enters the series in {{MP}}, it is explicitly said that he became a seventh-level mage at a phenomenally young age, then retired from active Wizarding to return home and run the extensive family estates. Certainly, his demeanour and behaviour is that of the rumbustious country squire who drinks port by the pint and considers slaughtering the wildlife to be a perk of social rank. Such a man would not concern himself with butchering, save in the rough-and-ready method utilised just after a successful hunt. Similarly, a butcher would not normally be expected to kill his animals - in normal circumstances, they arrive freshly killed by somebody else. And to be able to afford large country estates, you would surely need be a ''very successful'' butcher? Something of a problem here, I fear. On '''page 41''', Ridcully's grandfather is first mentioned as a religiously-inclined prizefighter who made musical boxes for a living and who scored two goals against Dimwell ''in one match''. This can be excused and incorporated into the canon without breaking continuity with what we already know about Ridcully - everybody gets two grandfathers, after all. But the wiggle room disappears when his father is described as a city-based butcher and not a country squire.... It is possible that the land comes from his mother's side of the family. Being the offspring of a frowned-upon marriage (highborn lady, lowborn butcher) may well explain some of Ridcully's stubborn attitude.<br />
<br />
Also, the book suggests Ridcully was brought up in Ankh-Morpork and his butcher father took him to football matches. This really doesn't square with what we know about the Ridcully brothers from previous books in the series. <br />
<br />
However, it is mentioned that not all those experiences were true ones. Ponder, for instance, remembers being taken to see the football by his father despite being raised by an aunt.<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p200)''' '''''"You are after the Hat" said Ridcully, flatly.'''''<br />
<br />
The rivalry between Mustrum and, er, Henry, crystallises in Henry's offer that the two magical Universities should fight it out on the field of sport, the stake being the [[Archchancellor's Hat]] in which reposes the soul of Wizardry and the essence of many thousands of Archchancellors past. This is made clear in an earlier dialogue on pp197-199. <br />
<br />
There is a continuity problem here with events in {{S}}. Having got the Hat out of Ankh-Morpork over to Klatch and therefore temporarily out of reach of the Sourcerer, Rincewind and Conina are imprisoned by the wicked vizier Abrim, who takes the Hat for his own. Abrim then builds a tower and challenges Ankh-Morpork, but owing to intervention by the Luggage, is distracted for just long enough for concentrated magic to blow him, the tower, and most crucially the Hat, into tiny tiny smithereens. After Abrim's destruction, the Hat is never heard of again - it is presumed destroyed, atomized by greater forces. It is certainly not used again as a plot device in {{S}}, and is in the fullness replaced by Ridcully's wilderness-survival Hat: a symbol of a different University with different priorities. Yet on pp225-227, Vetinari discusses the Hat as if it is still in physical existence, none the worse for its trip to Klatch and its last known wearing on the head of a failed wizard who was blasted into his component atoms. <br />
<br />
Unless Henry and Mustrum are playing for a purely symbolic Hat (which like the Ashes never leaves London, however often Australia beat England), or the original Hat was included in Coin's promise to the Librarian to restore everything to what it was, as good as old (but it is never mentioned again in the canon, until now?), then it's hard to see anything other than a continuity glitch here.<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p202)''' '''''Ponder Stibbons says "I'm even the Camerlengo, which means that if you drop dead, Archchancellor, from any cause other than legitimate succession under the Dead Man's Pointy Shoes tradition, I run this place until a successor is elected which, given the nature of wizardry, will mean a job for life."'''''<br />
<br />
The [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03217a.htm Camerlengo](Italian for "chamberlain) of the Roman Catholic Church is, among other duties, the person in charge of the Vatican between the death of one pope and the election of the next. His job is not normally as exciting as Dan Brown describes it in "Angels and Demons."<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p203)''' '''''"Most of them were old enough to recall at least two pitched battles among factions of wizards, the worst of which had only been brought to a conclusion by Rincewind, wielding a half-brick in a sock..."'''''<br />
<br />
As described at the end of ''"Sourcery."''<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p224)''' '''''Glenda says "You're giving them Avec. Nearly every dish has got Avec in it, but stuff with Avec in the name is an acquired taste."'''''<br />
<br />
"Avec" is the French (and probably restaurant Quirmian) word for "with."<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p251)''' '''''"What is your favourite spoon?"''''' <br />
<br />
Pepe has just informed Glenda that a lot of people want to ask Juliet some very important questions, including this one. <br />
<br />
The satirical magazine '''''Private Eye''''' carries a "Me and My Spoon" column in every edition, in which a celebrity is quizzed minutely about their favourite spoon. This column is meant as a joke at the expense of those journalists - not always on gossip/trivia magazines of the [[Bu-Bubble]] type - who persist in asking the most vacuous, trivial, and lazy questions of the people they are interviewing. As a sort of foreshadowing of this, Vetinari is seen to be playing with a spoon during the dinner at the University, thoughtfully studying it and the way the varying concavity and convexity of it alters his reflection. <br />
<br />
Interestingly, a place-name with an unambiguously Irish ring to it - ''Cladh'' - is introduced here. Until now - with the possible exception of a couple of minor character names - there has not been a hint of anywhere Ireland-like on the Disc, although there is a Wales-like country and a suspiciously Caledonian aura to the NacMac Feegle. Is this a portent for the future? ''Cladh", pronounced "Cla(h)'', may derive from an Irish Gaelic root for "circle" or "ring". <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p272-273)'''<br />
The crowd gathering to witness Nutt in his travail, chained to a bench and fully aware of his Orc-hood for the first time. The named speakers are a Butcher and a Baker. Who are looking upon Nutt, a Candle(stick)maker....<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p282)''' '''''"Is this going to be like the Moving Pictures?"''''' <br />
<br />
Given that Dr Hix, via a handy Omniscope, is proposing to replay part of the Battle of '''Orc's Deep''', then the answer may be "yes". This could well be a back handed tribute to the film adaptation of ''{{wp|The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Two_Towers|The Two Towers}}'', the second in the film trilogy of ''The Lord Of The Rings'' dealing with the battle of Helm's Deep, and introducing Orcs as a potent fighting force. The fact Glenda also remembers the Moving Pictures is significant, as she can be no older than twenty. Doubly interesting, in a city where a convenient group amnesia appears to settle at the end of every fad or fancy... Another (minor) continuity slip occurs here: Hix, acknowledging Glenda's reference to the Moving Pictures, refers to "popcorn", a word unknown on the Disc. Which does, however, have "banged grains" (although - continuity slip within continuity slip! - [[Hwel]] briefly mentions "popcorn" in one of his plays during {{WS}}). The second referent is to the Roundworld battle of Rorke's Drift, but this has already been parodied in an orc-related context by fantasy writer Mary Gentle (in her short story "The Battle of Orc's Drift", the Orcs are surprised and stitched up a treat by an enemy with lots of similarity to the Feegle). <br />
<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p314)''' '''''"Was it a football team of Orcs?"''''' By his own admission, Terry Pratchett was once heavily involved in fantasy RPG gaming of the "Dungeons and Dragons" variety. A spin-off from D&D, marketed by the British fantasy gaming and world domination corporation Games Workshop, was called '''''Blood Bowl [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Bowl]'''''. In this, a board game/RPG loosely based on American Football, teams drawn from the various fantasy races played each other, utilising their traditional cultural and racial strengths and weaknesses in a sport combining grace, athleticism, and sadistic brutality. It is difficult to believe TP is not aware of this game, nor of the fact that Orcs, being nearest in temperament and body shape to American footballers, had an inbuilt advantage. It may also be a reference to another game by Games Workshop called Warhammer 40,000; the orcs in this series (here called Orks) are often said to have been based on 'English football hooligans' and serve as a comedy relief race in the setting. It is notable that they would be very enthusiastic about the more brutal form of Ankh-Morpork foot-the-ball.<br />
<br />
"Orc's Deep" may also have a second level of allusion, to the famous Roundworld battle of Rorke's Drift. However, ''"The Battle of Orc's Drift"'' has already been done by fantasy writer Mary Gentle. (see above) In her story, the Orcs encounter a faerie race not unlike the Feegle...<br />
and in any case, Terry Pratchett has referenced, although not expanded on, a famous Discworld battle at ''Lawke's Drain'', which may have been in Howondaland. <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p320)''' "Fartmeister" Carter has just been badly beaten up by the established villain Andy and his gang, at least in part to send an unmistakable message to Trev Likely. This echoes a scene in the classic gangster film '''''Get Carter''''', in which the local mob, inconvenienced by London gangster Carter's attempts to disrupt them, go gunning for him. They miss Carter (Michael Caine), but console themselves by beating his friend and local ally to a bloody pulp. In this case - Carter has been well and truly got. <br />
<br />
"Fartmeister" echoes the case of the star professional footballer let down by a bad choice of best friend, who can so easily become a leech on him. Think of the role played by Jimmy "Two-Bellies" in the drink-related downfall of genuinely gifted flawed legend Paul Gascoigne - an ill-advised best friend who Gascoigne could not bear to lose on becoming famous and who provided embarrassment at best, and career-destroying drunken benders at worst. And the film "Get Carter" is even set in Newcastle, Gascoigne's home town...<br />
<br />
And there is also virtually the entire Rooney family, a clan of Liverpool scallies so notorious that the fragrant Coleen wanted to exclude the entire tribe from her wedding to Wayne. (a gifted footballer not known for his physical good looks: there is a certain Orc-like component to Wayne even in a good light). <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p321, 327, 361)''' - Mrs Atkinson - ''..one of the most feared Faces who had ever wielded a sharpened umbrella with malice aforethought.''<br />
<br />
This elderly lady, as well as evoking a freelance [[Agony Aunts|Agony Aunt]], is very typical of the hordes of shrieking old ladies who would descend on professional wrestling events* every Saturday to berate, belabour and batter the participants. Eighteen stone muscle-mountains would be scared of them, as a Mrs Atkinson rushing the ring who had deliberately sharpened her umbrella to a point could really ''hurt'' if she jabbed it into the thigh or buttock. Any wrestler thrown out of the ring to land theatrically in among the seated crowd ould not want to be dropped among a group of Atkinsons, who could be relied upon to prod, poke, pinch, kick, stab and spit as he made his shaky way back to the bottom rope. Kendo Nagasaki, a legend among British pro wrestlers, who played the evil baddie role in the ring, is on record as saying he feared nothing so much as a bloodthirsty seventy-year old lady with a sharp umbrella. <br />
<br />
* *We are talking about British pro wrestling here, generally a more cheap and cheerful spit-and-sawdust affair than the glitzy and improbable American WWF circuit. This is the sort of contest broadcast live from Dewsbury City Hall at four o'clock on a Saturday, invariably hosted by Kent Walton, while the nation waited for its football results in the 1970's. Ah, great days. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p330)''' - Mr Nutt quotes book title ''The Doors of Deception''. A play on Aldous Huxley's philosophical treatise on using psychedelic drugs to expand the senses - ''The Doors of Perception''. (This also inspired the name of a 60's psychedelic rock band fronted by Jim Morrison, of course).<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Paperback, p447)''' '''''"Well, they could give it one hundred and ten percent if they tried harder"..."that would mean that you had just made the one hundred percent bigger"''''' Giving 110% is a standard sports metaphor, but Ponder Stibbons' response is proportionally identical to Marty DiBergi's from This Is Spinal Tap, "Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top... number... and make that a little louder?"<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p336)''' Another troubling continuity error emerges concerning Mustrum Ridcully. In {{RM}}, the detail emerges, in the context of a conversation with his brother Hughnon the High Priest, whilst discussing life's little consolations in the face of Mrs Cake, that Hughnon is a teetotaller and cannot for religious reasons touch his brother's emergency brandy (but subsequently does anyway); he then asks Mustrum for a cigarette, and it emerges that his brother is a non-smoker with equally vehement reasons not to touch the blasted things. But here, on pages 338 and 339, after forbidding sex, smokes, strong drink and excess food to the football team, Mustrum is desperately searching his rooms for an emergency cigarette only to discover Mrs Whitlow has hidden them all, in accordance with his wishes. Far from being a non-smoker, Mustrum Ridcully now has at least three stashes of tobacco, rolling paper and cigarettes for emergencies. In the interim since {{RM}}, has Ridcully taken up the evil habit, as might be contractually expected of a senior Wizard? This is a niggling continuity point. (And has been since {{H}}, when Ridcully's pipe is mentioned on three occasions, including the detail that he uses "herbal tobacco" that smells of bonfires; perhaps it's only the regular stuff he objects to.)<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, pp360-62)''' The incident of the banana(s) flung onto the pitch. This reflects the nasty and distasteful racist streak in British football fans as recently as the 1990's, where if a team played a black player (in an overwhelmingly white side) a predominantly white crowd was likely to welcome the black player with massed "ook-ook!" monkey noises, mimed scratching of armpits and flea-picking, and the throwing onto the pitch of many, many, bananas. (One of the earliest black players to join a British team, London's West Ham, made a brave face of it by saying he'd never needed to pay for another banana ever again. West Ham, incidentally, were the preferred side of fictional TV racist Alf Garnett).<br />
<br />
Of course a real ape would attract "ook-ook" noises, a stand full of idiots all trying to get away with the m-word in relative safety, and, in this case, a poisoned banana. <br />
<br />
This practice has been virtually eradicated in British football (by sanctions including ensuring local greengrocers do not sell bananas to football fans on match days, refusing entry to the ground to those carrying bananas, and making the throwing of them into an ejection/arrestable offence.) But it persists in Europe, especially in Spain. <br />
<br />
The final taboo in British football is now beginning to be addressed: up until recently it was seen as a huge joke to verbally belabour gay players as black footballers were before them. (Note the presence in this game of Bengo Macarona, a man who has led indignant ''wives'' to bring divorce actions.) In real life, footballer Justin Fashanu[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Fashanu] had it twice over: once for being black, and once for coming out as gay. Fashanu eventually committed suicide. The story is quite shocking from anybody's point of view and is by all accounts typical of the treatment of out gay men in professional sport. Incidentally, Macarona's squad number is "69" for some unfathomable reason. (Although elsewhere we are told the Seamstresses' Guld clacks number is Ankh-Morpork 69, chosen for the advertising associations, this surely must be coincidence...)<br />
<br />
Also on page 361: Glenda Sugarbean invents what, if this were {{SM}} and the crowd were gathered for a rock concert, would be called "crowd-surfing" as she descends down from the stands to the pitch. A hazard of crowd-surfing in the mosh-pit for most women would be inadvertent or deliberate groping: Glenda is disappointed that this happens to her not even once. <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p366)''' Bledlow Nobbs, a man desperately trying to deny a relationship to Nobby Nobbs of the Watch, is summed up by Trev with "Nobbsy is a clogger at heart."<br />
<br />
A member of England's World Cup winning team of 1966 was Manchester United legend Nobby Stiles, an uncompromising defender who had lost all his teeth young, some to natural causes, and who used to disconcert opposing forwards by a toothless gummy grin before he went into tackle. Nobby Stiles was a very definite clogger of the old school.<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p385)''' '''''"You think it's all over?"'''''<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p389)''' '''''"You think it's all over?"'''''<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p397)''' '''''"You think it's all over?"'''''<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p400)''' '''''"It is now!"'''''<br />
<br />
A reference to the classic BBC commentary at the end of the World Cup Final in 1966, where at Wembley Stadium in London, England beat West Germany 4-2 with the referee unaccountably adding more and more extra time. Kenneth Wolstenholme drily says ''there are some people on the pitch... they think it's all over... [England scores another goal, taking it from 3-2 to 4-2] it is now!'' This piece of British deadpan, where a South American or Italian commentator would have been screaming with excitement, has justly gone down in commentating glory. <br />
<br />
As a secondary note, it is commonly believed that the English side winning the World Cup in 1966 occurred in the run-up to a general election. Eventual winner Harold Wilson, an exceedingly sharp Prime Minister more than slightly touched by Vetinari-ish deviousness, who is supposed to have later said that the feelgood factor engendered by the football match was the biggest single decider that elected him back into office. He speculated that had England ''lost'', government change would have been inevitable, for the same superficially irrelevant reason. What would a similar "feelgood factor" do for Lord Vetinari, a man not concerned with mere elections... In reality, the 1966 general election took place in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1966 March], while the World Cup took place in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_World_Cup July], and could not have affected the result.<br />
<br />
This was borne out in 1970, where the World Cup Finals actually did coincide with the run-up to an election called by Wilson. Against all expectations, holders England crashed out at a lower stage - to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_FIFA_World_Cup#Quarter-finals West Germany] - and former Prime Minister Harold Wilson duly found himself the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1970 Leader of the Opposition]. <br />
<br />
'''kitchen maid literature'''<br />
<br />
In Dutch, we have an expression 'kitchen maid literature' for the kind of books Glenda reads. I have not been able to ascertain if the same expression also exists in English, but if it does... Of course Glenda is a cook, not a kitchen maid, but still.<br />
<br />
'''Juliet the WAG'''<br />
<br />
Juliet is, of course, the Discworld's first example of what the UK press refer to as a "WAG" - the 'Wives And Girlfriends' of famous footballers (eg Victoria ('Posh') Beckham). Stereotypically, WAGS are incredibly glamourous but also incredibly vacuous, just like Juliet. The union of a famous footballer (ie Trev Likely) to a fashion model (ie Juliet) is a very typical WAG situation. Trev & Juliet are the Discworld's "Posh & Becks" (Mr & Mrs David Beckham).<br />
<br />
[[Category:Annotations|Unseen Academicals]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:Unseen_Academicals/Annotations&diff=35235Book:Unseen Academicals/Annotations2024-03-06T05:17:29Z<p>Old Dickens: dead link</p>
<hr />
<div>== [[Book:Unseen Academicals|Unseen Academicals]] Annotations ==<br />
<br />
General:- <br />
<br />
It has been suggested that the opening pages of the book, in which Rudolf Scattering, night-watchman at the Royal Art Museum receives a nasty surprise, is a deliberate parody of Dan Brown's mystery thrillers of the ''Da Vinci Code'' genre. <br />
<br />
[[Pedestriana]] - the plucky barefoot Goddess of Football. According to the Guardian, (edition of 30/12/09), in an article on the weird compulsion of men to collect, in this case a man with a desire to own a match programme for ''every'' game ever played by London side Tottenham Hotspur. The newspaper reproduces the front cover of the 1921 F.A. Cup Final programme, which features...guess what... a robed and barefoot Goddess of Football, the winged angel standing bare of foot atop the ball... documentary evidence, hopefully, will follow...[http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jcprogrammes.co.uk/images/1921.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.jcprogrammes.co.uk/Top_Sellers&usg=__CyDPShHA8tx7m4LNmGsFF_d1X00=&h=301&w=200&sz=57&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=Q4vZroN2lUWNFM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=77&prev=/images%3Fq%3DFA%2BCup%2Bfinal,%2B1921,%2Bprogramme%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26cr%3DcountryUK%257CcountryGB%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1]<br />
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The name ''Dimwell'' seems close to ''Millwall'', area and football club in London noted for the belligerence of their supporters. House chant: <br />
''Nobody loves us. And we don't care!'' Once combined an away visit to Manchester City with looting jeweller's shops on Wilmslow Road whilst the police were marching them to the ground. Two thousand fans overwhelmed three coppers and in the subsequent Shove, managed to gut a jewellers.<br />
<br />
Dimwell, like Millwall for London, is a dockside area that must provide most of Ankh-Morpork's stevedores, dockers and longshoremen. In fact: one of Andy Shanks' associates shares out the bounty at one point - of loose goods purloined while working a casual shift at the docks, unloading an incoming ship. <br />
<br />
There are a fair number of "Lord of the Rings" references in "Unseen Academicals." Is [[micromail]] (see reference in article for alternative in sci-fi/fantasy) a reference to Frodo's mithril shirt? A metal called "moonsilver" is cited by Pepe as being a major component of micromail - "moonsilver" is a translation of the elvish "mithril". <br />
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A recurring theme throughout the book is Mr Nutt's search for ''worth''. This leads him to many uncomfortable, even dangerous, places, and involves mental and emotional anguish, at one point a near-Death experience. <br />
<br />
Later in the book, he has the Margolotta-guided insight that the worth he seeks is not a property of deeds or created things, but an ongoing process of creation. <br />
<br />
This echoes the quest of the narrator of Robert M. Pirsig's work of popular philosophy, '''''Zen And The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance''''', who undergoes similar travails in search of elusive ''quality'' only to realise it isn't so much a ''thing'' as an ongoing ''process''. {{SM}} apart, there are no motorbikes on the Discworld. Pirsig's character grounds himself via looking after his motorcycle - but Mr Nutt is an accomplished amateur blacksmith who succeeds in re-shoeing the most difficult horse on the Quirm Flyer (horses are as near as the Disc gets, in general?)<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.11)''' '''''Speaking of Glenda's teddy bear, Mr. Wobble. "Traditionally, in the lexicon of pathos, such a bear should have only one eye, but as the result of a childhood error in Glenda's sewing, he has three, and is more enlightened than the average bear."'''''<br />
<br />
The picnic basket-stealing cartoon character, Yogi Bear, is frequently described as "smarter than the average bear." It is also a reference to "opening one's third eye", a feature of several spiritual traditions, usually having to do with gaining insight into the workings of the universe. The word "yogi" can also mean a practitioner of some of these traditions.<br />
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'''(Corgi paperback, UK, p28)''' '''''Hunting the Megapode''''' The Roundworld equivalent, {{wp|Wren_Day|The Hunting of the Wrens}}, is forgotten almost as totally as the Discworld version. The {{wp|Megapode|megapode}} is a real bird, whose name appropriately enough means "Bigfoot". The Megapode Hunt may also refer to the Oxford tradition of Hunting the Mallard, as suggested in The Culture of Discworld. <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p27)''' '''''"in most cases the minutes could be written beforehand"''''' Ponder Stibbons' technique for creating minutes of Faculty meetings is, in purpose and execution, identical to standard British Civil Service policy. (As described in the great satire of government life, '''Yes, Prime Minister''', in which Sir Humphrey Appleby is an adept at predicting in advance how a meeting will work out and can quite safely dictate the minutes in advance.)<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p36)''' '''''"No one could have been neutral when the Dark War had engulfed Far Überwald"'''''. A sideways reference to Tolkien's {{wp|Middle-earth|Middle-earth}}, perhaps, especially in the light of Mr Nutt's [[Orcs|species]] and their perceived role in the Dark War of antiquity. '''''"Alas, when the time came to write down their story, his people hadn't even got a pencil"'''''. Unlike more favoured races who had time and liberty to craft entire ''Red Books of Westmarch'' to get their side of the story out first... the Dark War is referred to on page 58 by Vetinari and on page 60 by Ridcully, where Vetinari likens the playing pieces on the Thud board to the Dark Hordes, in their lack of free will and their having been crafted for a single purpose - to fight. Ridcully reflects on what "the monsters" had been bred to do, and wonders what became of the thousands upon thousands of ''them'' who were bred to fight. Also, re-referencing Middle-earth, Treebeard speculates that Saruman had crossbred Orcs and Men, which he calls "a black evil", to create the {{wp|Uruk-hai|Uruk-hai}}, perfect fighting machines to fight in a war that engulfs a large area of land... Vetinari himself notes that it wasn't Igoring goblins that produced orcs, but using humans, in whom the natural capacity for violence and evil is so much greater. There's also a slight resonance with the original Tolkien orcs which were created when (Middle-earthen) elves were betrayed and corrupted. In neither case are they natural creatures - they have been twisted into these shapes through evil intent. In the Jackson film version of the LOTR, they are even ''more'' "bred": the Uruk-hai are dug from the ground in a grotesque birthing sequence. There is a reference to the spawning of Orcs from the ground earlier in the book, where Nutt is contemplating the tallow vats, permanently bubbling and seething, (as per the film) as a place where he finds himself feeling safe and peaceful in an odd and nursery-like way. ''People in the streets had jeered to him that he'd been made in a vat. Although Brother Oats had told him that this was silly, the gently bubbling tallow had called to him. He felt at peace here.'' ('''p33''')<br />
<br />
It is also worth noting that the phrase '''''"No one could have been neutral..."''''' has associations when one ponders the evolution of the fantasy fiction novel. J.R.R. Tolkien's master work has a rather simplistic two-dimensional ''"you are either Good or Evil and that's all there is to it.''" feel about the morality and the motivation of characters. As Tolkien's Middle Earth was heavily influenced by Tolkien's Christianity, and the notion that all that is Good comes of faith in and duty to God, while all that is Evil comes of rejection of God and joining in the Fall, this dichotomy excludes a Third Way. <br />
<br />
The Third Way is introduced by fantasy writer Michael Moorcock, who thought about the mechanics involved, and came up with a moral picture drawn as much from science as from mysticism. Moorcock, drawing his cue from the scientific laws of thermodynamics, insisted the primal struggle in the Multiverse was not between Good and Evil but between the opposed forces of Law and Chaos. After making that primal alignment, a character was free to make a secondary alignment with Good, Evil or the third state - '''''Neutral''''' - as he or she pleased. <br />
<br />
Being of the Law does not necessarily mean you are Good - consider the [[Auditors]] - and being of Chaos does not necessarily mean you are Evil. Consider Ronnie [[Soak]].<br />
<br />
Moorcock's system offers so much choice and scope for delineating more complex three-dimensional characters that [[Dungeons and Dragons]] creator Gary Gygax adopted it wholesale. But here, in the Discworld, we are being explicitly told it is not an option - '''''"No one could have been Neutral when the Dark War had engulfed Far Überwald"''''' The Dark War takes its referents, therefore, from Tolkien and not Moorcock/Gygax. <br />
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<br />
('''''More Here:- [[http://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Reading_suggestions&section=32]]. Ref.''''' author Mary Gentle and book "''Grunts''". In which a captured Orc is heavily laden with chains and secured to an anvil in the hope that this renders it dormant.)<br />
<br />
Mary Gentle, like Neil Gaiman, is the subject of a dedication of an earlier Discworld book (the [[H.P. Lovecraft Holiday Fun Club]] consisted of her and several others from the new wave of British sci-fi/fantasy, including Neil). ''Two'' previous Discworld novels, in fact: she gets an explicit personal dedication in {{G!G!}}. It would seem logical then, that TP is aware of her writing and has perhaps referenced it in the Discworld. <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p45)''' '''''Ridcully swayed backwards, like a man subjected to an attack by a hitherto comatose sheep'''''<br />
<br />
In the UK House of Commons in June 1978 the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer was Denis Healey. <br />
He described being attacked in June 1978 by mild mannered Conservative shadow Chancellor Geoffrey Howe as ''"like being savaged by a dead sheep".''<br />
<br />
Such an attack can be lethal if timed right. The selfsame Sir Geoffrey Howe, formerly a fawning loyalist, lost his temper in 1990 and launched a bitter and scathing speech to a packed Commons that contributed to the downfall of the previously unassailable Margaret Thatcher. Within a fortnight of Howe's attack - again likened to that of a dead sheep - she was gone, deposed as PM. <br />
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'''(Harper Paperback, p43)''' '''''most number of goals scored by one man in his whole life is four. That was Dave Likely, of course'''''<br />
<br />
Four goals in football was the claim to fame of Al Bundy, of Married with Children (though Bundy's were touchdowns in gridiron football), which has a certain resonance with Trevor Likely's relationship with his father, whom he sees as not valuable apart from his legendary status in football.<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p46)''' '''''-How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless Dean'''''<br />
<br />
Shakespeare is being paraphrased here. King Lear's furious and anguished speech of betrayal on being (apparently) rejected by an ungrateful child, despite everything he has done for her, in which he at first wishes infertility on her, and then<br />
<br />
''If she must teem,'' <br />
<br />
''Create her child of spleen; that it may live,'' <br />
<br />
''And be a thwart disnatured torment to her!''<br />
<br />
''Let it stamp wrinkles in her brow of youth;'' <br />
<br />
''With cadent tears fret channels in her cheeks;'' <br />
<br />
''Turn all her mother's pains and benefits'' <br />
<br />
''To laughter and contempt; that she may feel'' <br />
<br />
'''''How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is''''' <br />
<br />
'''''To have a thankless child!''''' ''Away, away!''<br />
<br />
from '''''King Lear''''' [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/188900.html]<br />
<br />
Other Shakeperian references, filtered on the Discworld through the prolific pen of the dwarf [[Hwel]], occur on '''''page 167''''', where Ridcully and Stibbons are considering the ball that goes ''gloing!'' (''There are more things in Heaven and Disc than are dreamed of in our philosophies...'').<br />
And on '''''page 387,''''', where Glenda and Mr Nutt go to the theatre to witness a Hix-suggested production by the [[Dolly Sisters Players]], called '''''Starcrossed''''', also written by Hwel. This not only continues the ''Romeo and Juliet'' motif running through the book, it is explicitly described as ''one of the great romantic plays of the last fifty years''. In our timescale, the Bernstein/Sondheim musical '''''West Side Story''''', where the plot of ''Romeo and Juliet'' is updated to warring city street gangs, was first performed in 1957, making it 52 years old.<br />
<br />
I don't think it's pressing things too far to suggest that the evil Dr Hix's love of amateur dramatics might be a sly dig at one CMOT Briggs...<br />
<br />
Another piece of Python-esque British humour that can be referenced here is the classic radio comedy sketch performed by the ''Son of Cliché'' troupe (including a very young and pre-Arnold Rimmer comedian called Christopher Barrie), in which the FA Cup final of 1982 is re-written as though it were a Shakesperian play of the heroic ''Henry V'' genre being performed at London's National Theatre. <br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.49)''' '''''"Just speak with a little more class, eh? You don't have to sound like--"'''''<br />
<br />
'''''"My fare, lady?"'''''<br />
<br />
Referring to "My Fair Lady" where street flower seller Eliza Doolittle improves her cockney speech to the point where she's taken for a fine lady at an embassy ball.<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p51)''' '''''"Miss Healstether found him a book on scent"'''''. Mr Nutt's early life, education and reception by his peers is reminiscent of that of the character Grenouille in Patrick Süskind's novel '''''Perfume''''', who is similarly scorned, hated, and making his way up (or at least across) from the bottom. It is also worth noting that Grenouille was raised by a priest, for at least part of his life, and was effectively chained to a Hell-like cellar apprenticeship until offered opportunity to better himself. Like Steerpike in Gormenghast, (another literary anti-hero who has a similar early life), Grenouille finally becomes a manipulative monster with a sinister power over people...<br />
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'''Football team colours''' - from Wikipedia:-<br />
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*The leader in the Giro d'Italia cycle race wears a pink jersey (''maglia rosa''); this reflects the distinctive pink-colored newsprint of the sponsoring Italian La Gazzetta dello Sport newspaper. <br />
*The University of Iowa's Kinnick Stadium visitors' locker room is painted pink. The decor has sparked controversy, perceived by some people as suggesting sexism and homophobia. <br />
* Palermo, a soccer team based in Palermo, Italy, traditionally wears pink home jerseys. <br />
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Palermo is also the heart of Mafia and Machismo country, in Sicily: presumably they have transcended the whole pink thing as immaterial. <br />
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The Hungarian international strip appears to be red and green with pink trim. <br />
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The Liseberg district of Gothenberg in Sweden hosts three soccer clubs. The local city colours are pink and green, which goes back to mediaeval times, but alas none of the three clubs plays in them. <br />
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One manufacturer of soccer favours markets a pink-and-green scarf, but regrettably there's no clue as to which club it is associated with.<br />
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In many cities in the North of England, in pre-Internet and pre-Sky TV days, there would be a late edition of the Saturday evening paper, carrying nothing but the final sports results of the day, and it would be printed on pink paper. (Except in Sheffield, where for some reason it was the Sporting Green). Pink and Green again...<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p52)''' '''''Miss Healstether sounded bitter. "Stand by then, because he's discovered the [[Bonk School]]."'''''<br />
This is the Discworld equivalent of later German/Austrian philosophers such as Wittgenstein. On Roundworld, the Vienna School is also a collective name used for the emergent psychoanalysts of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, such as Freud, Jung and Adler, whose works are often taught in university philosophy departments for want of anywhere less controversial to pigeon-hole them. This leads to several amusingly entertaining associations: given Mr Nutt's later destiny as football team manager, with the more reflective, introverted and philosophical sort of squad boss such as Sven-Göran Eriksson. There are also echoes of famously philosophical players, such as the Manchester United and France star Eric Cantona, an interview with whom could easily befuddle the average back-page journalist, as Cantona was (and is) fond of peppering interviews with philosophical ''apercus''. Also, need we mention the classic Monty Python sketch where the whole of the German and Greek international football teams are made up of their nations' respective star philosophers? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiZt79UKUFQ] The one exception in the German team, who deserves mention for going along with the joke, is the then West German national football team captain Franz Beckenbauer, who appears on the field looking frustrated at the philosophical reflection and lack of football going on around him. <br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p53)''' '''''"They are the ones who go on about what happens if ladies don't get enough mutton, and they say cigars are--"<br />
"That is a fallacy!"'''''<br />
<br />
Sigmund Freud, when asked if his cigar was a phallic symbol, is supposed to have said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."<br />
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A similar phallus/fallacy joke has appeared in a previous Discworld book in reference to witches' broomsticks.<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p67)''' '''''"They're two teams alike in villainy."'''''<br />
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Prologue to "Romeo and Juliet" "Two households, both alike in dignity..." It could also be an example of football commentators' random (if sometimes intellectual) phrases... <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p70)''' '''''"But I'm a Face, right?"'''''. Trevor Likely's proud assertion of his status in the ranks of the Dimmers, and his being known throughout all the Boroughs, reflects British soccer hooligan counter-culture where the leaders, best fighters, and other notorious individuals in the various Firms are known as Faces. The term was also used by counter-cultural young male gangs in the 1950's and 1960's: Teddy Boys in the 50's, and Mods and Rockers in the 60's, most notorious gang members and hardest fighters were called Faces. In the latter case - 1960's scooter mods - there is even a musical about it: the Who's rock opera ''Quadrophenia'', about London Mods. The Who also had an early single called called ''I'm the Face'', written for them by their then-manager Peter Meaden, who had also changed their name to The High Numbers. The single, an attempt to appeal to the mod audience, flopped, The High Numbers changed managers again and reverted to being The Who. <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p73)''' ''''' 'Gentlemen' Ridcully began ...'or should I say, fellow workers by hand and brain' '''''<br />
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'Workers by hand and brain' is a key phrase in original Clause IV for the British Labour Party. This was written by Beatrice and Sidney Webb, leading members of the Fabian Society.<br />
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''To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service''<br />
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Clause IV was revised (not abolished) in 1995.<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p80)'''. With regard to the makeover of Professor Hicks into the University's licensed evil wizard. In his physical description and general attitude, is there a certain sly reference creeping in to the teaching wizards of Slytherin House, in a certain J.K. Rowling's fantasies about a school of wizardry? Or, indeed, to a certain Dark Lord whose name cannot be uttered, save that it most coincidentally also begins with a "V"? And all this is in the context a of a sport which wizards must learn to love (if only to stop their cornucopia drying up and the flow of big dinners ebbing to a trickle.) A sport which most categorically must be played within agreed rules, with no magic ''at all'' being used, which involves getting a resolutely un-magical ball into a goal. Anyone for Quidditch, whoops sorry, Foot-the-Ball? Interestingly, when Ridcully is temporarily possessed by the shade of PE master Evans the Striped, it is Hix who performs a crude but effective exorcism with the knob on the end of his staff. What might Hix be able to reveal about the act of insorcism that put Evans' soul in there in the first place? <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p87)''': ''Glenda would have followed him like a homing vulture'' A reference to ex-Python Michael Palin's gritty slice of Northern working-class life, ''The Testing of Eric Olthwaite'', in which the little-known Northern English sport of racing homing vultures is discussed at great length. It is possible one of Reg Bag's prize homing vultures was called ''Glenda''. <br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p107)''' '''''"I just happened to be holding a knife. You are holding a knife.We hold knives. This is a kitchen."'''''<br />
<br />
Reminiscent of "The Lion in Winter", where Queen Elanor says "Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 and we're barbarians!"<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p113)''' '''''"Oh, Mr Trevor Likely" said Glenda, folding her arms. "Just one question: who ate all the pies?"'''''<br />
<br />
This is a classic chant to be heard across British football grounds. Fans tend to be merciless to a player perceived as having fallen from the pinnacle of physical fitness and to have put weight on, in the form of visible fat. The full chant, aimed at the luckless fat boy, runs: ''Who ate all the pies? Who ate all the pies? '''''You''''' fat bastard, '''''you''''' fat bastard, you ate all the pies!'' (tune: '''Knees up, Mother Brown'''). Footballers thus singled out for dietary advice from the terraces have included England's idiot savant and flawed genius, Paul Gascoigne.<br />
<br />
A charming piece of trivia. ''Who ate all the pies?'' is quite possibly the oldest known fan chant to have been continuously sung on English terraces. It was born in honour of {{wp|William_Foulke_(footballer)|William Henry "Fatty" Foulke}}, the legendary Sheffield United goalkeeper whose playing career spanned 1894-1910. Six foot two and a svelte twelve stone at the start of his career, he was an early victim of success and the extravagant professional footballer lifestyle (Edwardian style). By 1902, he was estimated to weigh twenty-five stones (350 pounds) ''and was still playing top-level football.'' His Sheffield United faithful sang it in his honour, albeit without the "you fat bastard" line. You wonder if Terry was aware of this when he wrote the character of the Ankh United goalkeeper, who is seen eating and gorging his way through the big game...<br />
:Rotund, pie-eating keepers are still seen, at least in the National League, but the Association is clamping down...see [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/sports/soccer/wayne-shaw-sutton-soccer-pie.html Wayne Shaw]. <br />
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'''(Harper Paperback, p118)''' '''''Its surgeons were even known to wash their hands before operating as well as after'''''<br />
<br />
This makes the standard of care at Lady Sybil's relatively advanced compared to other Ankh-Morpork technology. Handwashing did not become common in European & American medicine until the second half of the 19th century.<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.122)''' '''''Robert Scandal's famous poem, "Oi! To his Deaf Mistress".'''''<br />
<br />
Refers to Andrew Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress".<br />
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Also '''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p122)''' '''''Nutt was technically an expert on love poetry throughout the ages... he had tried to discuss it with Ladyship, but she had laughed and said that it was frivolity, although quite useful as a tutorial on the art of vocabulary, scansion rhythm, and affect as a means to an end, to wit, getting a young lady to take all her clothes off.'''''<br />
<br />
This is suspiciously reminiscent of Sigismundo Celine's reflections on romantic poetry, in guerrilla ontologist Robert Anton Wilson's '''''The historical Illuminatus: The Widow's Son'''''. In which the wunderkind Celine, imprisoned in the Bastille, passes time by reading the prison library. He decides about love poems that <br />
<br />
''they mostly argue the case that a Certain Woman is like a certain Natural Phenomenon (sunlight, stars, birds, flowers, et c) and that the poet's heart, in response to this fact, was like another Natural Phenomenon (parched desert, wounded animal, dark cave, et c) and that there was only one natural resolution to this natural conjunction of natural phenomena. He gathered that she would have to take her clothes off.'' (p. 149 R.A.Wilson, '''''The Widow's Son''''', Lynx Books, New York, pub. 1985) For more Wilson and hints on other ways his thoughts and ideas might have filtered through Pratchett's brain and into Discworld, see Reading Suggestions). <br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p.124)''' '''''[S]omeone at the Royal Art Museum had found the urn in an old storeroom, and it contained scrolls which, it said here, had the original rules of foot-the-ball laid down in the early years of the century of the Summer Weevil, a thousand years ago, when the game was played in honour of the goddess Pedestriana.'''''<br />
<br />
As gods and religion are involved, it may be of note that a similar incident is described in the Bible, specifically in 2 Kings Ch. 22. Supposedly, a "Book of the Law" was found in the Temple, dating back centuries to Moses himself, but which had somehow been lost. As the book described rules that were in the best interests of the Temple and the priests there, scholars who aren't Biblical fundamentalists generally suspect that the ancient book (likely an early version of what we now call Deuteronomy) had been recently composed.<br />
<br />
This being the Discworld, this book of rules apparently is ancient ''and'' has just been composed.<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p135)''' '''''"Good point, well put," said Ridcully, "and I shall marshal my responses thusly." He flicked a finger and, with a smell of gooseberries and a pop, a small red globe appeared in the air over the table.'''''<br />
<br />
Is this a magical powerpoint demonstration?<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p158)''' '''''"Dolly Sisters, right? Sounds like the Botney Street area. I'm sure of it". said Pépé ''''' This is in the crab-bucket discourse, about how people from lowly areas with big ideas are beaten back into thinking small by their peers. <br />
<br />
Satirical magazine '''''Private Eye''''' once revealed a secret about BBC Arts supremo, talking head on the gentler, more refined, things in life, and broadcasting giant, Alan Yentob. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Yentob] Although Yentob adamantly denies it, the Eye revealed that he was born in lowly circumstances in East London as Alan ''Botney'', and reversed his surname for professional reasons to make it look more interesting and artsy. Yentob/Botney has refrained, however, from suing the Eye for libel over this assertion. Is this a hidden reason for Terry's naming a street in Lobbin Clout after him? <br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p167)''' '''''"You gave the ball a mighty kick, Mister Stibbons, and yet you are, by your own admission, a wet and a weed."'''''<br />
Molesworth, a schoolboy and the narrating character in a series of books by Geoffrey Willans, would consistently refer to his brother, Molesworth 2, as "a wet and a weed."<br />
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'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p198)''' '''''"Owlspring-Tips diagram"'''''<br />
<br />
The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung%E2%80%93Russell_diagram Herzsprung-Russell diagram] is used in astronomy to plot the absolute magnitude of stars against their spectral class.<br />
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'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p201)''' '''''"That's right, of course" said the former Dean. "Your father was a butcher, as I recall".'''''<br />
Later on, there is explicit mention of the large, strong, hands Ridcully inherited from his butcher father. <br />
There is a continuity problem here: when Ridcully first enters the series in {{MP}}, it is explicitly said that he became a seventh-level mage at a phenomenally young age, then retired from active Wizarding to return home and run the extensive family estates. Certainly, his demeanour and behaviour is that of the rumbustious country squire who drinks port by the pint and considers slaughtering the wildlife to be a perk of social rank. Such a man would not concern himself with butchering, save in the rough-and-ready method utilised just after a successful hunt. Similarly, a butcher would not normally be expected to kill his animals - in normal circumstances, they arrive freshly killed by somebody else. And to be able to afford large country estates, you would surely need be a ''very successful'' butcher? Something of a problem here, I fear. On '''page 41''', Ridcully's grandfather is first mentioned as a religiously-inclined prizefighter who made musical boxes for a living and who scored two goals against Dimwell ''in one match''. This can be excused and incorporated into the canon without breaking continuity with what we already know about Ridcully - everybody gets two grandfathers, after all. But the wiggle room disappears when his father is described as a city-based butcher and not a country squire.... It is possible that the land comes from his mother's side of the family. Being the offspring of a frowned-upon marriage (highborn lady, lowborn butcher) may well explain some of Ridcully's stubborn attitude.<br />
<br />
Also, the book suggests Ridcully was brought up in Ankh-Morpork and his butcher father took him to football matches. This really doesn't square with what we know about the Ridcully brothers from previous books in the series. <br />
<br />
However, it is mentioned that not all those experiences were true ones. Ponder, for instance, remembers being taken to see the football by his father despite being raised by an aunt.<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p200)''' '''''"You are after the Hat" said Ridcully, flatly.'''''<br />
<br />
The rivalry between Mustrum and, er, Henry, crystallises in Henry's offer that the two magical Universities should fight it out on the field of sport, the stake being the [[Archchancellor's Hat]] in which reposes the soul of Wizardry and the essence of many thousands of Archchancellors past. This is made clear in an earlier dialogue on pp197-199. <br />
<br />
There is a continuity problem here with events in {{S}}. Having got the Hat out of Ankh-Morpork over to Klatch and therefore temporarily out of reach of the Sourcerer, Rincewind and Conina are imprisoned by the wicked vizier Abrim, who takes the Hat for his own. Abrim then builds a tower and challenges Ankh-Morpork, but owing to intervention by the Luggage, is distracted for just long enough for concentrated magic to blow him, the tower, and most crucially the Hat, into tiny tiny smithereens. After Abrim's destruction, the Hat is never heard of again - it is presumed destroyed, atomized by greater forces. It is certainly not used again as a plot device in {{S}}, and is in the fullness replaced by Ridcully's wilderness-survival Hat: a symbol of a different University with different priorities. Yet on pp225-227, Vetinari discusses the Hat as if it is still in physical existence, none the worse for its trip to Klatch and its last known wearing on the head of a failed wizard who was blasted into his component atoms. <br />
<br />
Unless Henry and Mustrum are playing for a purely symbolic Hat (which like the Ashes never leaves London, however often Australia beat England), or the original Hat was included in Coin's promise to the Librarian to restore everything to what it was, as good as old (but it is never mentioned again in the canon, until now?), then it's hard to see anything other than a continuity glitch here.<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p202)''' '''''Ponder Stibbons says "I'm even the Camerlengo, which means that if you drop dead, Archchancellor, from any cause other than legitimate succession under the Dead Man's Pointy Shoes tradition, I run this place until a successor is elected which, given the nature of wizardry, will mean a job for life."'''''<br />
<br />
The [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03217a.htm Camerlengo](Italian for "chamberlain) of the Roman Catholic Church is, among other duties, the person in charge of the Vatican between the death of one pope and the election of the next. His job is not normally as exciting as Dan Brown describes it in "Angels and Demons."<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p203)''' '''''"Most of them were old enough to recall at least two pitched battles among factions of wizards, the worst of which had only been brought to a conclusion by Rincewind, wielding a half-brick in a sock..."'''''<br />
<br />
As described at the end of ''"Sourcery."''<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Collins hardback, US, p224)''' '''''Glenda says "You're giving them Avec. Nearly every dish has got Avec in it, but stuff with Avec in the name is an acquired taste."'''''<br />
<br />
"Avec" is the French (and probably restaurant Quirmian) word for "with."<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p251)''' '''''"What is your favourite spoon?"''''' <br />
<br />
Pepe has just informed Glenda that a lot of people want to ask Juliet some very important questions, including this one. <br />
<br />
The satirical magazine '''''Private Eye''''' carries a "Me and My Spoon" column in every edition, in which a celebrity is quizzed minutely about their favourite spoon. This column is meant as a joke at the expense of those journalists - not always on gossip/trivia magazines of the [[Bu-Bubble]] type - who persist in asking the most vacuous, trivial, and lazy questions of the people they are interviewing. As a sort of foreshadowing of this, Vetinari is seen to be playing with a spoon during the dinner at the University, thoughtfully studying it and the way the varying concavity and convexity of it alters his reflection. <br />
<br />
Interestingly, a place-name with an unambiguously Irish ring to it - ''Cladh'' - is introduced here. Until now - with the possible exception of a couple of minor character names - there has not been a hint of anywhere Ireland-like on the Disc, although there is a Wales-like country and a suspiciously Caledonian aura to the NacMac Feegle. Is this a portent for the future? ''Cladh", pronounced "Cla(h)'', may derive from an Irish Gaelic root for "circle" or "ring". <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p272-273)'''<br />
The crowd gathering to witness Nutt in his travail, chained to a bench and fully aware of his Orc-hood for the first time. The named speakers are a Butcher and a Baker. Who are looking upon Nutt, a Candle(stick)maker....<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p282)''' '''''"Is this going to be like the Moving Pictures?"''''' <br />
<br />
Given that Dr Hix, via a handy Omniscope, is proposing to replay part of the Battle of '''Orc's Deep''', then the answer may be "yes". This could well be a back handed tribute to the film adaptation of ''{{wp|The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Two_Towers|The Two Towers}}'', the second in the film trilogy of ''The Lord Of The Rings'' dealing with the battle of Helm's Deep, and introducing Orcs as a potent fighting force. The fact Glenda also remembers the Moving Pictures is significant, as she can be no older than twenty. Doubly interesting, in a city where a convenient group amnesia appears to settle at the end of every fad or fancy... Another (minor) continuity slip occurs here: Hix, acknowledging Glenda's reference to the Moving Pictures, refers to "popcorn", a word unknown on the Disc. Which does, however, have "banged grains" (although - continuity slip within continuity slip! - [[Hwel]] briefly mentions "popcorn" in one of his plays during {{WS}}). The second referent is to the Roundworld battle of Rorke's Drift, but this has already been parodied in an orc-related context by fantasy writer Mary Gentle (in her short story "The Battle of Orc's Drift", the Orcs are surprised and stitched up a treat by an enemy with lots of similarity to the Feegle). <br />
<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p314)''' '''''"Was it a football team of Orcs?"''''' By his own admission, Terry Pratchett was once heavily involved in fantasy RPG gaming of the "Dungeons and Dragons" variety. A spin-off from D&D, marketed by the British fantasy gaming and world domination corporation Games Workshop, was called '''''Blood Bowl [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Bowl]'''''. In this, a board game/RPG loosely based on American Football, teams drawn from the various fantasy races played each other, utilising their traditional cultural and racial strengths and weaknesses in a sport combining grace, athleticism, and sadistic brutality. It is difficult to believe TP is not aware of this game, nor of the fact that Orcs, being nearest in temperament and body shape to American footballers, had an inbuilt advantage. It may also be a reference to another game by Games Workshop called Warhammer 40,000; the orcs in this series (here called Orks) are often said to have been based on 'English football hooligans' and serve as a comedy relief race in the setting. It is notable that they would be very enthusiastic about the more brutal form of Ankh-Morpork foot-the-ball.<br />
<br />
"Orc's Deep" may also have a second level of allusion, to the famous Roundworld battle of Rorke's Drift. However, ''"The Battle of Orc's Drift"'' has already been done by fantasy writer Mary Gentle. (see above) In her story, the Orcs encounter a faerie race not unlike the Feegle...<br />
and in any case, Terry Pratchett has referenced, although not expanded on, a famous Discworld battle at ''Lawke's Drain'', which may have been in Howondaland. <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p320)''' "Fartmeister" Carter has just been badly beaten up by the established villain Andy and his gang, at least in part to send an unmistakable message to Trev Likely. This echoes a scene in the classic gangster film '''''Get Carter''''', in which the local mob, inconvenienced by London gangster Carter's attempts to disrupt them, go gunning for him. They miss Carter (Michael Caine), but console themselves by beating his friend and local ally to a bloody pulp. In this case - Carter has been well and truly got. <br />
<br />
"Fartmeister" echoes the case of the star professional footballer let down by a bad choice of best friend, who can so easily become a leech on him. Think of the role played by Jimmy "Two-Bellies" in the drink-related downfall of genuinely gifted flawed legend Paul Gascoigne - an ill-advised best friend who Gascoigne could not bear to lose on becoming famous and who provided embarrassment at best, and career-destroying drunken benders at worst. And the film "Get Carter" is even set in Newcastle, Gascoigne's home town...<br />
<br />
And there is also virtually the entire Rooney family, a clan of Liverpool scallies so notorious that the fragrant Coleen wanted to exclude the entire tribe from her wedding to Wayne. (a gifted footballer not known for his physical good looks: there is a certain Orc-like component to Wayne even in a good light). <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p321, 327, 361)''' - Mrs Atkinson - ''..one of the most feared Faces who had ever wielded a sharpened umbrella with malice aforethought.''<br />
<br />
This elderly lady, as well as evoking a freelance [[Agony Aunts|Agony Aunt]], is very typical of the hordes of shrieking old ladies who would descend on professional wrestling events* every Saturday to berate, belabour and batter the participants. Eighteen stone muscle-mountains would be scared of them, as a Mrs Atkinson rushing the ring who had deliberately sharpened her umbrella to a point could really ''hurt'' if she jabbed it into the thigh or buttock. Any wrestler thrown out of the ring to land theatrically in among the seated crowd ould not want to be dropped among a group of Atkinsons, who could be relied upon to prod, poke, pinch, kick, stab and spit as he made his shaky way back to the bottom rope. Kendo Nagasaki, a legend among British pro wrestlers, who played the evil baddie role in the ring, is on record as saying he feared nothing so much as a bloodthirsty seventy-year old lady with a sharp umbrella. <br />
<br />
* *We are talking about British pro wrestling here, generally a more cheap and cheerful spit-and-sawdust affair than the glitzy and improbable American WWF circuit. This is the sort of contest broadcast live from Dewsbury City Hall at four o'clock on a Saturday, invariably hosted by Kent Walton, while the nation waited for its football results in the 1970's. Ah, great days. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p330)''' - Mr Nutt quotes book title ''The Doors of Deception''. A play on Aldous Huxley's philosophical treatise on using psychedelic drugs to expand the senses - ''The Doors of Perception''. (This also inspired the name of a 60's psychedelic rock band fronted by Jim Morrison, of course).<br />
<br />
'''(Harper Paperback, p447)''' '''''"Well, they could give it one hundred and ten percent if they tried harder"..."that would mean that you had just made the one hundred percent bigger"''''' Giving 110% is a standard sports metaphor, but Ponder Stibbons' response is proportionally identical to Marty DiBergi's from This Is Spinal Tap, "Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top... number... and make that a little louder?"<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p336)''' Another troubling continuity error emerges concerning Mustrum Ridcully. In {{RM}}, the detail emerges, in the context of a conversation with his brother Hughnon the High Priest, whilst discussing life's little consolations in the face of Mrs Cake, that Hughnon is a teetotaller and cannot for religious reasons touch his brother's emergency brandy (but subsequently does anyway); he then asks Mustrum for a cigarette, and it emerges that his brother is a non-smoker with equally vehement reasons not to touch the blasted things. But here, on pages 338 and 339, after forbidding sex, smokes, strong drink and excess food to the football team, Mustrum is desperately searching his rooms for an emergency cigarette only to discover Mrs Whitlow has hidden them all, in accordance with his wishes. Far from being a non-smoker, Mustrum Ridcully now has at least three stashes of tobacco, rolling paper and cigarettes for emergencies. In the interim since {{RM}}, has Ridcully taken up the evil habit, as might be contractually expected of a senior Wizard? This is a niggling continuity point. (And has been since {{H}}, when Ridcully's pipe is mentioned on three occasions, including the detail that he uses "herbal tobacco" that smells of bonfires; perhaps it's only the regular stuff he objects to.)<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, pp360-62)''' The incident of the banana(s) flung onto the pitch. This reflects the nasty and distasteful racist streak in British football fans as recently as the 1990's, where if a team played a black player (in an overwhelmingly white side) a predominantly white crowd was likely to welcome the black player with massed "ook-ook!" monkey noises, mimed scratching of armpits and flea-picking, and the throwing onto the pitch of many, many, bananas. (One of the earliest black players to join a British team, London's West Ham, made a brave face of it by saying he'd never needed to pay for another banana ever again. West Ham, incidentally, were the preferred side of fictional TV racist Alf Garnett).<br />
<br />
Of course a real ape would attract "ook-ook" noises, a stand full of idiots all trying to get away with the m-word in relative safety, and, in this case, a poisoned banana. <br />
<br />
This practice has been virtually eradicated in British football (by sanctions including ensuring local greengrocers do not sell bananas to football fans on match days, refusing entry to the ground to those carrying bananas, and making the throwing of them into an ejection/arrestable offence.) But it persists in Europe, especially in Spain. <br />
<br />
The final taboo in British football is now beginning to be addressed: up until recently it was seen as a huge joke to verbally belabour gay players as black footballers were before them. (Note the presence in this game of Bengo Macarona, a man who has led indignant ''wives'' to bring divorce actions.) In real life, footballer Justin Fashanu[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Fashanu] had it twice over: once for being black, and once for coming out as gay. Fashanu eventually committed suicide. The story is quite shocking from anybody's point of view and is by all accounts typical of the treatment of out gay men in professional sport. Incidentally, Macarona's squad number is "69" for some unfathomable reason. (Although elsewhere we are told the Seamstresses' Guld clacks number is Ankh-Morpork 69, chosen for the advertising associations, this surely must be coincidence...)<br />
<br />
Also on page 361: Glenda Sugarbean invents what, if this were {{SM}} and the crowd were gathered for a rock concert, would be called "crowd-surfing" as she descends down from the stands to the pitch. A hazard of crowd-surfing in the mosh-pit for most women would be inadvertent or deliberate groping: Glenda is disappointed that this happens to her not even once. <br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p366)''' Bledlow Nobbs, a man desperately trying to deny a relationship to Nobby Nobbs of the Watch, is summed up by Trev with "Nobbsy is a clogger at heart."<br />
<br />
A member of England's World Cup winning team of 1966 was Manchester United legend Nobby Stiles, an uncompromising defender who had lost all his teeth young, some to natural causes, and who used to disconcert opposing forwards by a toothless gummy grin before he went into tackle. Nobby Stiles was a very definite clogger of the old school.<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p385)''' '''''"You think it's all over?"'''''<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p389)''' '''''"You think it's all over?"'''''<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p397)''' '''''"You think it's all over?"'''''<br />
<br />
'''(Doubleday hardback, UK, p400)''' '''''"It is now!"'''''<br />
<br />
A reference to the classic BBC commentary at the end of the World Cup Final in 1966, where at Wembley Stadium in London, England beat West Germany 4-2 with the referee unaccountably adding more and more extra time. Kenneth Wolstenholme drily says ''there are some people on the pitch... they think it's all over... [England scores another goal, taking it from 3-2 to 4-2] it is now!'' This piece of British deadpan, where a South American or Italian commentator would have been screaming with excitement, has justly gone down in commentating glory. <br />
<br />
As a secondary note, it is commonly believed that the English side winning the World Cup in 1966 occurred in the run-up to a general election. Eventual winner Harold Wilson, an exceedingly sharp Prime Minister more than slightly touched by Vetinari-ish deviousness, who is supposed to have later said that the feelgood factor engendered by the football match was the biggest single decider that elected him back into office. He speculated that had England ''lost'', government change would have been inevitable, for the same superficially irrelevant reason. What would a similar "feelgood factor" do for Lord Vetinari, a man not concerned with mere elections... In reality, the 1966 general election took place in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1966 March], while the World Cup took place in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_World_Cup July], and could not have affected the result.<br />
<br />
This was borne out in 1970, where the World Cup Finals actually did coincide with the run-up to an election called by Wilson. Against all expectations, holders England crashed out at a lower stage - to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_FIFA_World_Cup#Quarter-finals West Germany] - and former Prime Minister Harold Wilson duly found himself the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1970 Leader of the Opposition]. <br />
<br />
'''kitchen maid literature'''<br />
<br />
In Dutch, we have an expression 'kitchen maid literature' for the kind of books Glenda reads. I have not been able to ascertain if the same expression also exists in English, but if it does... Of course Glenda is a cook, not a kitchen maid, but still.<br />
<br />
'''Juliet the WAG'''<br />
<br />
Juliet is, of course, the Discworld's first example of what the UK press refer to as a "WAG" - the 'Wives And Girlfriends' of famous footballers (eg Victoria ('Posh') Beckham). Stereotypically, WAGS are incredibly glamourous but also incredibly vacuous, just like Juliet. The union of a famous footballer (ie Trev Likely) to a fashion model (ie Juliet) is a very typical WAG situation. Trev & Juliet are the Discworld's "Posh & Becks" (Mr & Mrs David Beckham).<br />
<br />
[[Category:Annotations|Unseen Academicals]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35230User:Old Dickens2024-02-29T00:46:58Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div><br />
==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
<br />
There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
<br />
Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Bridge==<br />
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'''б'''раво україно!<br />
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==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Seven_Spice_Black_Powder&diff=35229Seven Spice Black Powder2024-02-27T05:50:20Z<p>Old Dickens: recipe</p>
<hr />
<div>Seven Spice Black Powder is a secret mix of herbs and spices whose composition is a closely guarded secret in [[Agatean Empire|Agatea]]. Used in the local cuisine, it is a key component of [[Grimchi]], a local delicacy based on fermented cabbage. <br />
<br />
The powder is volatile, unstable, and possibly very, very, explosive. It is not thought to be an ingredient of [[Wow-Wow Sauce]] - yet. But if [[Mustrum Ridcully]] got to hear of it, you can be sure that it ''would'' be. The Exothermic Alchemy labs at the [[Assassins' Guild]] School would also take a professional interest, as well as its newly-formed Domestic Science department. The canonical Miss [[Smith-Rhodes]] would be sure to take a keen interest. <br />
<br />
For now, the only clue it ever appeared on the Central Continent are seven very large craters in the ground in the vicinity of [[Grimchi|Seven Bangs]], the people who brought it there having vanished into thin air. Perhaps it is ''safer'' this way.<br />
<br />
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[[Category: Food and drink]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Burleigh_%26_Stronginthearm&diff=35227Burleigh & Stronginthearm2024-02-23T05:24:46Z<p>Old Dickens: .500 is more recent</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
The dwarfish partners '''Burleigh & Stronginthearm''', based in [[Ankh-Morpork]], are "crossbow makers to the nobility" and manufacturers of a full catalog of personal arms and military weapons systems, including:<br />
* The "Meteor" automated throwing-star hurler. It was backed up with an unusual guarantee: money back if not completely decapitated;<br />
* Mark IV "Dervish" Razor Bolas;<br />
* "Viper" Mk 3 crossbows, which kill people but leave buildings standing, costing over AM$ 100 each;<br />
* "Shureshotte Five", a bow for the expert (with muscles; it has a hundred-pound draw);<br />
* The "Streetsweeper" axe ("Win By A Neck!");<br />
* The [["Great Leveller" Cart-Mounted Ten-Bank 500-Pound Crossbow]];<br />
<br />
The high-tech, collapsible [[Piecemaker|"Piecemaker" Mark IX]] crossbow was banned as uncomfortably filling a place between the "[[spring-gonne|one-shot]]" and the [[gonne]]. One of three remaining samples was buried in the cellar of [[Ramkin Residence|One Scoone Avenue]], however, and one of its special bolts turns up mysteriously in {{SN}}. <br />
<br />
Their products, sold in order to help peace-loving friendly states perform minor police actions in unruly outlying parts of their nations (naturally) are renowned Disc-wide, a fact [[Samuel Vimes]] acknowledged when he personally equipped the Watch in [[Bonk]] with "everything in their current catalogue" at his own expense. The firm would be a great military asset to the city but for the fact that they sell arms all over the continent, and to [[Klatch]].<br />
<br />
Mr. [[Burleigh]] runs the business and financial side; he is also the President of the [[Guild of Armourers]]. Rarely seen [[Pors Stronginthearm]], who makes a brief appearance as a Dwarf civic dignitary in {{T!}}, seems to be the technical genius behind the product. The name of their partnership has entered the language as a signifier of serious, expensive armament, in much the same way "This house protected by Smith and Wesson" is used elsewhere in the multiverse.<br />
<br />
It has also come to mean a top-notch job, which speaks volumes for their craftsmanship.<br />
<br />
The firm has been in existence for about 25 years by the time [[Young Sam]] is born, as [[Sam Vimes]] had a rather embarrassing moment in {{NW}} after being blown back about 30 years in time:<br />
<blockquote>'Yeah? On whose authority?'<br/><br />
Vimes swung his crossbow up. 'Mr Burleigh and Mr Stronginthearm,' he said, and grinned.<br/><br />
The two guards exchanged glances. 'Who the hell are they?' said one.<br/><br />
There was a moment of silence followed by Vimes saying, out of the corner of his mouth: 'Lance-Constable Vimes?'<br/><br />
'Yessir?'<br/><br />
'What make are these crossbows?'<br/><br />
'Er... Hines Brothers, sir. They're Mark Threes.'<br/><br />
'Not Burleigh and Stronginthearm?'<br/><br />
'Never heard of them, sir.'<br/><br />
Damn. Five years too early, thought Vimes. And it was such a good line, too.</blockquote><br />
<br />
Mr Burleigh, or perhaps other members of the Burleigh family, have since diversified into other interesting related businesses which no doubt capitalise on marketing interesting spin-offs from arms and armour technology. These include [[Burleigh and Spoke]], and [[James and Burleigh]] in Coney Catcher Road (H5 - I5 in {{CAM}} map), who specialise in making birdcages. <br />
<br />
== Annotations ==<br />
* For the non-British folks, the renowned English armaments genius of the XIX century {{wp|William_George_Armstrong,_1st_Baron_Armstrong|William George Armstrong}} certainly rings a bell about the origin of the name.<br />
* The name Burleigh & Stronginthearm appears to echo the [[Roundworld]] tradition of dynamic weapons manufacturing duos such as Smith & Wesson and Heckler & Koch.<br />
* It is worth also noting that '''Burleigh''' is a homonym for "burly", a word meaning well-built and physically powerful. Hence "burly and strong in the arm", which can be considered a case of {{wp|Nominative determinism|nominative determinism}}.<br />
* Vimes' fondness for Burleigh & Stronginthearm weaponry might be one of many references in the Watch books to the ''Dirty Harry'' films, in which protagonist "Dirty" Harry Callahan famously prefers a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum revolver. Vimes' quip in {{NW}}, quoted above, seems to be a direct reference to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAyz5c3JmM a line in ''Dirty Harry IV'']:<br />
<blockquote>Harry: "Well we're not going to just let you walk out of here."<br />
Robber: "Who's "we", sucker?"<br />
Harry: "Smith, Wesson and me!"</blockquote><br />
<br />
[[Category:Ankh-Morpork Businesses]]<br />
[[de:Burlich und Starkimarm]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35224User:Old Dickens2024-02-19T04:39:20Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
<hr />
<div><br />
==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
<br />
There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
<br />
Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Bridge==<br />
<br />
'''H'''appy Presidents Day, Family Day, Louis Riel Day... It's a day off.<br />
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'''б'''раво україно!<br />
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==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Faculty&diff=35223Faculty2024-02-19T03:26:51Z<p>Old Dickens: link</p>
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<div>There are hundreds of Wizards within [[Unseen University]] (although at UU, the term "within" must be considered in several extra dimensions. The almost infinitely extensible corridors and the flexibility of space itself make an accurate census difficult.) They form an intricate hierarchy of Orders, Levels and Titles jostling for influence, prestige and a seat nearer the buffet,since there's no suggestion of anyone drawing a salary. Power and prestige reside with the [[Archchancellor]] and are grudgingly allowed to trickle in small and precisely measured amounts down the hierarchy, stopping short at the [[Egregious Professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography]], who is currently its lowest, least, and most despised, member. (Much to the relief of [[Ponder Stibbons]], who is beginning to realise how promotion happens around these parts). Supporting this cadre is a large maintenance, housekeeping, and especially kitchen staff.<br />
<br />
Precedence in the academic hierarchy seems to run: Archchancellor, Vice-Chancellor (although there hasn't been one for decades), Dean, Dean of College, Chair or Head, Endowed Professor, Professor, Lecturer/Reader. The Librarian takes precedence if he wants.<br />
<br />
We see a little more of the way the University hierarchy operates in {{SOD3}}, when in order to manipulate the Roundworld timeline, wrest control back from the [[Auditors of Reality]] and ensure the one possible universe happens where Charles Darwin writes the right book, Ridcully scours the university for every able-bodied wizard who is capable of being sent on a mission. As over two thousand changes are needed, and most wizards are sent on two or more missions, it is possible to infer that there are between five hundred and a thousand wizards at the University with some sort of arcane speciality and maybe even tenure, most of whom are not seen except at mealtimes. <br />
<br />
==Faculty Members==<br />
<br />
===University Council===<br />
The group of senior staff at Unseen University who at least in theory lead, define its direction, set policy, pay the bills, hire and fire, have eight-course [[Guilds of Ankh-Morpork|Guild]] dinners on behalf of the university, deal with the [[Patrician]], and in extreme cases where there simply isn't any alternative or [[Room 3b]] isn't available, interact with [[students]]. The Council usually includes:<br />
<br />
*the [[Archchancellor]], currently [[Mustrum Ridcully]]<br />
*the [[Dean]], recently [[Brazeneck College|departed]]<br />
*the [[Chair of Indefinite Studies]]<br />
*the [[Lecturer in Recent Runes]]<br />
*the [[Senior Wrangler]]<br />
*the [[Bursar]]<br />
*the [[Librarian]]<br />
*[[Ponder Stibbons]], as:<br />
**the Head of Inadvisably Applied Magic<br />
**the Keeper of [[Hex]]<br />
**the Praelector<br />
**the Master of the Traditions<br />
**the [[Camerlengo]]<br />
**the [[Reader in Invisible Writings]]<br />
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===Other Wizards===<br />
<br />
Such wizards would not normally be invited to Council meetings, but their skills and specialties may make them occasional ex-officio members.<br />
<br />
*the [[John Hicks|Head of Post-Mortem Communications]]<br />
*the [[Professor of Applied Anthropics]] (mentioned in {{H}})<br />
*the [[Professor of Astrology]] (in {{TLF}})<br />
*the [[Pennysmart|Professor of Revolvings / Professor of Extreme Horticulture]]<br />
*the [[Professor of Recondite Architecture and Origami Map Folding]] <br />
*the [[Professor of Recondite Phenomena]]<br />
*the [[Professor of Logic]]<br />
*the [[Prehumous Professor of Morbid Bibliomancy]]<br />
*the [[Egregious Professor of Grammar and Usage]]<br />
*the [[Lecturer in Applied Astrology]] (in {{ER}})<br />
*the [[Lecturer in Creative Uncertainty]] (mentioned in {{TLC}})<br />
*the Lecturer (?) in Vindictive Astronomy (mentioned in {{TT}}, title implied but not specified)<br />
*the [[Reader in Woolly Thinking]] (mentioned in {{IT}}. Woolly thinking is like {{wp|fuzzylogic|fuzzy logic}}, only more so)<br />
*the [[Reader in Esoteric Studies]] also known as the Reader in the Lavatory (mentioned in {{SM}})<br />
*the Chair of Oblique Frogs <br />
*the [[Henry the Taupé|Professor of Criminology]]<br />
*[[Rincewind]], as:<br />
**the [[Chair of Experimental Serendipity]]<br />
**the [[Chair for the Public Misunderstanding of Magic]]<br />
**the [[Egregious Professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography]]<br />
**the [[Fretwork Teacher]]<br />
**the [[Health and Safety Officer]]<br />
**the [[Lecturer in Approximate Accuracy]]<br />
**the [[Professor of Slood Dynamics]]<br />
**the [[Professor of Virtual Anthropology]]<br />
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Then we have to consider the temporarily deceased wizards who are taking a sabbatical for a year or so: as this class of wizard (temporarily) physically exists only as a knitted sock-puppet in [[Wizards' Pantry|a jar in the cupboard]] (don't ask - it's in {{GP}}) then this would preclude their being active members of the Faculty. In this category we have:-<br />
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*the [[Posthumous Professor of Morbid Bibliomancy]]<br />
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along with other dead wizards who would like to take a more active role, but whom Ridcully would not want turning up at a Faculty meeting. <br />
<br />
Professor [[Flead]] from the Department of [[Necromancy]] would almost certainly count in this group. <br />
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[[Category:Wizards]]<br />
[[Category:Groups]]<br />
[[de:Unsichtbare Universitaet]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Bernard_Pearson&diff=35222Bernard Pearson2024-02-18T05:22:35Z<p>Old Dickens: available again</p>
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<div>Otherwise known as the ''Cunning Artificer'' and the creator of many quality [[Discworld]] souvenirs and tie-in goods, many of which now fetch fabulous prices on the collectibles market. He and his wife, Isobel, founded [[Clarecraft]] in 1980 and began producing Discworld figurines in 1990. They sold the company in 1993 but continued with other Discworld projects. He is the co-creator of [[Book:The Unseen University Cut-out Book|''The Unseen University Cut-out Book'']], [[Book:The Celebrated Discworld Almanak|''The Celebrated Discworld Almanak'']] and, with the rest of the Discworld Emporium faculty, {{CAM}} and {{CDA}}.<br />
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His [[Discworld Emporium]] is no longer open to the public but still stands in [[Wincanton]], Somerset, a convenient distance from Sir Terry Pratchett's house. The online Emporium still operates a mail-order service.<br />
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{{stub}}<br />
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==External Links==<br />
* [http://www.discworldemporium.com/pages/discworld-emporium.php The Discworld Emporium Website]<br />
* [https://bernardpearson.me/ Bernard Pearsons Website]<br />
* [https://www.facebook.com/Bernard-Pearson-The-Cunning-Artificer-1425990717667440/ Bernard Pearson on Facebook]<br />
* [https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/and-he-said-to-me-bernard-pearson-8YnXjklidD9/ And He Said to Me (podcast)] - Bernard shares stories about Terry Pratchett.<br />
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{{DEFAULTSORT:Pearson, Bernard}}<br />
[[Category:People]]<br />
[[Category:Order of the Honeybee]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Havelock_Vetinari&diff=35221Talk:Havelock Vetinari2024-02-16T06:11:10Z<p>Old Dickens: dead link</p>
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<div>==Assassin's Guild target?==<br />
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Does the assassin's guild have a fee on his head? I thought he (and Sam Vimes) were the only two people the guild gave up on...--[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 23:06, 13 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
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:I'm pretty sure that I read in one of the books that Vetinari had a fee on his head but noone had yet dared (and succeeded) to collect it. Don't remember in which book it could have been tough. Probably one of the guards novels. It would be nice if we could verify this though. [[User:Jeltz|Jeltz]] 23:13, 13 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
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Men At Arms:<br />
'Everyone knows the Assassins have set his fee at a million dollars,'<br />said Lady Selachii.'That's how much it would cost to have him killed.'<br />'One can't help feeling,' said Lord Rust,<br />'that it would cost a lot more than that to make sure he stayed dead.'<br />
--[[User:Death|Death]] 10:03, 14 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
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:I give you ''Nightwatch'', UK hardback p. 8 from the top:<br />
'You're a bit young to be sent on this contract, aren't you?'<br /> said Vimes.<br /> 'Not a contract, sir,' said Jocasta, still paddling.<br /> 'Come now, Miss Wiggs. The price on my head is at least---'<br /> 'The Guild Council put it in abeyance, sir,' said the dogged<br /> swimmer. 'You're off the register. They're not accepting<br /> contracts on you at present.'<br />
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On the next page, when Sam contemplates this:<br />
'Off the register, eg? The only person not on it any more,<br /> it was rumoured, was Lord Vetinari, the Patrician. The Assassins<br /> understood the political game in the city better than anyone,<br /> and if they took you off the register it was because they felt your<br /> departure would not only spoil the game but also smash the<br /> board...'<br />
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I'm writing a paper on Havelock Vetinari for my English Composition II class and I need some good reliable sources, especially Terry Pratchett interviews that may bring up his name or books he is featured in prominently. I promise faithfully to share all my information, but I need someone to point me in a good direction!<br />
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==Name==<br />
I read somewhere about Vetinari's name being a satire in itself but I can't remember what of or where i read it - any ideas? [[User:81.77.78.217|81.77.78.217]] 21:25, 13 February 2006 (CET)<br />
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:From http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/sourcery.html: " A sideways pun (via 'veterinary') on the name of the famous de Medici family, who were the enlightened rulers of Renaissance Florence." --[[User:10.0.0.1|10.0.0.1]] 12:57, 14 February 2006 (CET)<br />
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Yes, where a vetinarian is an animal doctor and ''medicin'' is the french (and possibly other Romance languages) for 'doctor'--[[User:Hapenny|Hapenny]] 23:45, 24 January 2008 (CET)<br />
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in book 37 a drunken footballer directly calls him vetinary<br />
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One quick question: I think there was an English medieval king called "Havelock" as well, as far as i remember it seems as if he was regarded as a kind of ideal leader...just an idea though<br />
:See {{wp|Havelok the Dane|Havelok}}. No obvious connection, though, except as successful overthrower of an evil ruler. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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It was also used as a pun during the Fifth Elephant: when Vimes mentioned Vetinari to the von Uberwalds (werewolves) (putting a little extra stress on the first syllable) the response included a growl. (He got a similar response at the mention of baths - it all rather put's me in mind of Blackadder III dealing with the actors through the use of the word 'Macbeth'). <br />
I've also commented on the name 'Havelock' lower down this page (under Vetinari In Concert), sorry - it fitted in with my mention of his Holmesian like character with relation to choice of instruments. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|GallifreyanWitch]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 16:18, 21 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
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==Age quibble==<br />
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Vetinari needs to be well over 50. He's older than Sam, who has to be over 50 by now.<br />
(Calculate from ''Night Watch''.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 10:15 EST 17 Aug 2006.<br />
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: I gathered from Nightwatch that he's slightly older than Sam (how old are Assasin's Guild students?). Sam goes back 30 years in time and sees himself as a 16 or 18yo (can't remember exactly). That would make him nearing 50 and Vetinari a few years older than that. I remember TP saying that Vimes and Vetinari are roughly the same age, too.<br />
BTW, we probably need to replace age with year of birth so it doesn't need to change with each book, and a timeline (just mailed the LSpace people who maintain the DW Timeline whether it's okay to put in on the wiki). --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 16:48, 17 August 2006 (CEST)<br />
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Timeline discussion [[Talk:Discworld Timeline|moved here]].<br />
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In {{NW}}, Vetinari is still a pupil at the Assassins' Guild school. We know from context ({{P}}) that the AG school is set up along the lines of a British public school. In common with other British higher schools, the age-range of pupils would be eleven - eighteen. Downey and his louche chums would be the equivalent of sixth-formers: ie, seventeen-eighteen. Vetinari, from context, can be assumed to be of the same age or slightly younger? While mention is made of a "post-graduate" course in the Assassins' Guild - implying that it offers continuing learning at the equivalent of university level (the Unseen University can hardly be expected to offer degrees in assassination...) the bulk of the Guild's education appears to be focused on young people of accepted school-age, ie 11-18 years old. So you could assume the young Vetinari is, at this time, no lower than the fifth form (15-16) but most probably in the Lower Sixth (16-17)?<br />
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In The Truth, we are told he graduated in 1969. This places the events of Night Watch as being no later than 1999/1969, and suggests a birthdate of c.1951 [[User:Gothmog Dave|Gothmog Dave]] 21:54, 29 February 2008 (CET)<br />
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In the book The Fifth Elephant, Lady Margolotta (a vampire) says that Vetinari "should be quite old by now". Sam Vimes asks her if she taught Vetinari everything he knows, and she laughs and insinuates that, in fact, he had taught her in her younger days. This indicates to me the possibility that Vetinari's age is far greater than what some of you may be thinking. And although it hasn't been explicitly stated in any of Terry Pratchett's works as far as I know, it also opens up the possibility that Vetinari is a vampire, which would explain how he could look relatively young while in fact being quite old.<br />
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Assuming that Vetinari is seventeen during Night Watch, it's impossible (unless he ages in a ''very'' strange way) that he could be the Patrician during the events of The Colour of Magic or Mort. Since in Thief of Time Susan is almost certainly in her early- to mid-twenties, I'm assuming that by Night Watch (in the present) she's at least 25. This means that Night Watch takes place around 27 years after Mort, and three years after Vetinari 'killed' Winder, meaning he couldn't possibly be celebrating his 10th anniversary as Patrician, even if he had managed to become Patrician at such a young age. Does anyone else agree? [[User:Rachel95|Rachel95]]<br />
:Most people agree, except The Author who has, unfortunately, chosen to die rather than defend his single-Patrician hypothesis. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)<br />
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I've created a potential Time Line for Vetinari on my talk/discussion page, based on the assumption he's 17 or 18 in Nights Watch (though I expect it could also be modified to assume he's younger/older at that time) and on the info I can find on the page related to events in specific years (I would provide the link but formatting could be problematic as I'm writing from a tablet). I must admit I think the Time Line I've come up with covers most things and fits in quite well. I've also included current affairs (other rulers, wars, development of technology) and the little info on Wuffles on the timeline to provide context.<br />
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Here are some of my assumptions/suggestions based on the Time Line I've made:<br />
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It would, if it's accurate, suggest he's around 24/25 at the time of The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic - so it would technically be possible for him to be Patrician at that time. <br />
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As of THUD! Vetinari has been patrician for at least 17 years (based on Sorcery), possibly 27 Years (if he was patrician during the colour of magic).<br />
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There is roughly a 10 year gap between Colour of Magic and Sorcery, presenting the potential he lost weight and showed his true colours as patrician during that time - see point below about overweight Vetinari (even if it took 10 years if he really lost weight during that time I'd love to know what his diet/fitness plan was to achieve such a change).<br />
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There could be a gap between 7 and 17 years between Vetinari's final year/s as a student in the guild and his being patrician - during which time the Grand Sneer and his assistance to Lord Snapcase can be assumed to have taken place.<br />
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If he is the patrician during the colour of magic it suggests he made use of the post-graduate program during his time as patrician (must admit I find it curious he has no formal qualification in languages despite the fact they'd probably be useful in his current profession).<br />
Personally I think the reference in The Truth to graduation in 1969 refers to his latest graduation - i.e. post-graduate course. It messes the dates up quite a bit and doesn't fit in with the suggested date for Night Watch if that were his original graduation aged under 20 otherwise, and probably reduces his apparent age by about 10 years or so I think, which would not fit in with the idea of him being older than he seems or aged in his 50s during the latest books.<br />
Potential year of birth - 1939/1940<br />
Possible ages during sorcery - 34/35<br />
Possible age during Guards! Guards! - 45/46<br />
Other key books on virtually a yearly basis after that.<br />
Possible age during The Truth - 50/51<br />
Possible age during Goind Postal and THUD! - 51/52<br />
Dates for following books unknown, but presumably also on a yearly basis suggesting he's arounf 54/55 as of Snuff<br />
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And, Rachel95, I wouldn't put it past Vetinari to age in an odd manner, however I'd of also thought that using Susan's age as a guide might not set things in stone - she is Death's Granddaughter afterall, so it might be that she's the one who ages in an odd way (I've included her potential date of birth based on the lspace wiki time line on the Time Line on my talk page.). I personally don't think he's a Vampire - even though he exhibits similar traits. But I do think he's not simply human. There is a presedence for a human aging oddly: Rincewind - who's life timer is described as looking as if it were created by a glassblower with hiccups - What if the same glassblower was a frequent sufferer of hiccups and made other unusual hourglasses (which just so happen to be for influential people in relation to events on the disc? (Oh dear - Now my mind is racing with potential stories.)<br />
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 22:08, 1 December 2013 (GMT)<br />
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== Coat of arms ==<br />
After the success of my [[Ankh-Morpork]] coat of arms I thought I'd try my hand at a few more. Vetinari's was the obvious choice because it's more or less blank although I added a bit of a flourish to the motto to liven it up a bit. If you go back and look at when I first added Vetinari's coat of arms you'll see it looked dreadful but I think I've found a way that works, I've made it slightly larger and floated it above the text. I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions (or criticisms) you may have.--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 00:38, 26 February 2007 (CET)<br />
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I can't read the motto.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:30, 26 February 2007 (CET)<br />
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click on it and it'll get bigger--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 03:53, 26 February 2007 (CET)<br />
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== Vetinari's Intelligence Files ==<br />
<br />
Do the Patrician's intelligence service files contain at least a partial catalogue of books held by the Library? <br />
<br />
--(Originally posted by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] to [[The Summoning of Dragons]] on 22:10, 19 May 2007 moved here by [[User:Fhh98|Fhh98]] 06:31, 28 February 2008 (CET))<br />
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:The Patrician's intelligence service files could hardly contain more than a partial list. The UU Library, of course, contains all the books ever written and all the books that will or may ever be written. <br />
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:--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 01:08, 28 February 2008 (CET) (Originally posted to [[Talk:The Summoning of Dragons]] moved here by [[User:Fhh98|Fhh98]] 06:31, 28 February 2008 (CET))<br />
::It is possible that the UU library may have a list of the books that will ''never'' be written. [[Special:Contributions/173.206.76.164|173.206.76.164]] 06:39, 23 March 2011 (CET)<br />
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Just logic, really: how does a non-wizard such as Lupine Wonse stumble accross the idea, in the first place, that the UU library contains a book which offers the key to taking over the city? (And to know its location on the shelf well enough to direct a hired thief there). Without Wonse's awareness that such a book exists, there'd be no later events to relate in {{G!G!}} - the ''Summoning'' would still be gently mouldering unheeded on a shelf somewhere, with its carbonised last few pages flaking into decrepitude. Wonse could ask a Wizard, but then he's openly declared an interest in such a book - leading no doubt to an intelligence report on ''him'' ending up on the Patrician's desk. The simplest concept that answered this question - ''how did he know the book existed in the first place?'' - is to posit that, as Vetinari's secretary, Wonse had unlimited access to the intelligence files in the Palace in the course of his duties. Nobody would notice, or think to ask, what he was looking up, as it was his job to maintain those archives. And if the Files included partial catalogues of books held in the Guild libraries, including that of UU...--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 16:38, 3 March 2008 (CET)<br />
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de Malachite's adventure might well fall into the category of things the Patrician didn't want to see happen again and had notes about. On the other hand Wonse was a clever sod in his own right and might have come across it anywhere. Certainly I would expect the university to give the Palace the courtesy of free access to the library, and it wouldn't seem odd for clerks to be doing research there. This is pretty much why I was astonished when you pointed out that I was wrong in assuming Wonse stole the book himself: that was so much more likely. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:57, 3 March 2008 (CET)<br />
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:Brother Fingers stole the book. [[User:Fhh98|Fhh98]] 03:46, 4 March 2008 (CET)<br />
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We know. Agprov's trying to work out how Wonse knew where to look. I say he was a clerk and finding out was what he did. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:42, 4 March 2008 (CET)<br />
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If the Library contains every book that's ever existed, its going to be hard for any non-magician to find any book. No details have been given on the Library's filing system, but it's bound to be complicated. [[Special:Contributions/92.7.160.39|92.7.160.39]] 15:27, 24 February 2011 (CET)<br />
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It is. [[Blit]]. (ref {{UA}})--[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] 09:50, 23 March 2011 (CET)<br />
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==Stealth Exam==<br />
When Vetinari returns (camouflaged) from taking out the assassin intending to kill Keel, Lady Roberta remarks "I understand, Havelock, that you scored zero in your examination for stealthy movement." <br />
The "correction" mentions only the "missed" classes, which apparently didn't bar him from the exam. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==TV Casting==<br />
Remember, in Sky's adaptation of The Colour Of Magic, Vetinari is played by Jeremy Irons. I don't know where in this article this should be mentioned, but it's noteworthy. [[User:JaffaCakeLover|JaffaCakeLover]] 16:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
:I don't know that most of us accept that he was Patrician at the time of {{COM}}, although Irons certainly plays him that way, not like the fat hedonist from the book. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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== Roundworld equivalent ==<br />
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OK I know a wiki isn't the right place to post current-event-blog-satire but this picture nails the Roundworld-Vetinari to an accuracy of 225%<BR><br />
(Putin-related image unavailable. Hmmm.)<BR><br />
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[[User:Iron Hippo|Iron Hippo]] 22:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)<br />
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Five years on, it is possible to marvel at the prescience of this comment. Where are the Guild of Assassins when you need them? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 19:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)<br />
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==Vetinari In Concert==<br />
The Assassins' Guild School is known to require proficiency in some musical instrument, and V. is known to have an ear that prefers his own reading of the score to any imperfect performance of it. I wonder what his instrument was. The violin, like Sherlock Holmes, or the oboe, perhaps, because it's difficult? Maybe an even more unusual Agatean instrument, or the Klatchian asp-pipe? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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:I would say the violin would be the most obvious choice, which probably means it's automatically excluded. Maybe something unexpected like a harp, or even bagpipes? Though given V. seems to be proficient in almost everything he can probably play whatever instrument he picks up. --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 09:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I realise this doesn't mean he actually plays it, but in Going Postal Moist says he has 'pianist's fingers'. --[[User:Rachel95|Rachel95]] 21:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
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I would have thought the violin a good, if predictable choice (OK, I must admit I see Vetinari as a very Holmesian character considering his build, skills, mind and abilities - if anything he seems a cross between Sherlock and Mycroft and if you want to go into sort of conspiracy-theorizing one might say even the name hints at this link: both 'Have'(in Havelock) and 'My' (in Mycroft) being terms of ownership, while 'lock' being in both 'Sherlock' and 'Havelock' - though perhaps that's just the thoughts of a mind that notices odd, seemingly deliberate coincidences. I remember reading somewhere that a Sherlock like detective probably wouldn't work that well in Ankh-Morpork, but a Sherlock like character would surely still be a possibility). <br />
<br />
Anyway - back on topic, on the main Wikipedia page for Vetinari it says<br />
:'Vetinari also enjoys reading written music rather than listening to it performed, because the idea of it being performed by people, with all the sweat and saliva involved, strikes him as distasteful.'<br />
Perhaps the thought of 'sweat and saliva' would be somewhat off putting with some instruments - especially wind instruments - though the violin would seem quite inoffensive in these respects as far as I can see.<br />
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It's also worth remembering he's a Doctor of Music and, let's face it, a polymath. I expect he'd be proficient in a variety of instruments, and still probably be able to play new instruments quite easily through transferable skills (like his juggling in Klatch during Jingo). I must admit I'm biased as I play the violin (though not well), however the skills/knowledge involved in it have greatly helped me in learning the plucked psaltery and tabor pipe, hence the line of thinking above.<br />
<br />
This is, of course, assuming he actually plays music. He may have the skills and played in the past but who knows now? Certainly his view of music means he might just play it with his mind (see Soul Music - or [http://www.ealasaid.com/fan/vetinari/vl-soulmusic.html this useful webpage]<br />
<br />
[[User:GallifreyanWitch|GallifreyanWitch]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 14:45, 21 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Interesting ideas. I gave one of my Assassins, in fanfic, the tuba, just for the sheer incongruity of it... (there was another more intricate joke involved, but you'd have to read the fic...) So what would Vetinari play? Well, he'd be cunning. In the Assassins' School Orchestra, he might be the piccolo player: he could just slip it into his inside pocket, bid the rest of the orchestra goodnight, and be in bed a long time before the timpanist had dismantled and packed his drums. He might be the man who quietly points out that the Uberwaldean music teacher meant no insult, as few people outside Überwald would know the word " das Faggot" means "bassoon". (weird but true). I suppose he might play the Extremely Muted Trumpet as an extention of his skills in stealth and concealment, arguing that a musical instrument making any sort of sound would betray his position... or else, given the social disruption caued by Music With rocks In, somewhere in the lowest dungeons of the palace, in a sound-proofed triple-locked room, there is The Guitar and a righteous heap of Marshall Stacks, where Vetinari goes to chill and blast out a few riffs. After all, the guitar is ''dangerous'' in other hands...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:52, 21 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
:"Doctor of Music"? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:59, 21 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
::Love the ideas for different instruments. The concept of subtlety does seem very in keeping but can't help but grin at the thought of The Guitar. <br />
:: Re: Doctor of Music, to quote the page for the [[Assassins'_Guild|Assassins Guild]]:<br />
:::Lord Havelock Vetinari Holding the Title 'Provost of Assassins' and the following degrees: DMAP [Doctor of Medicine & Applied Pathology], '''DM [Doctor of Music]''', DGS [Doctor of God Studies], MA [Master Assassins], MPE [Master of Political Expediency], MASc [Master of Alchemical Science], MIDD [Member of the Institute of Dance & Deportment], BScI [Bachelor of the Science of Inhumation] & DiPE [Diploma in Physical Education]<br />
::--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 23:53, 26 November 2013 (GMT)<br />
:But where does ''that'' come from? Is it in the Handbook? It would suggest that he spent many extra years at the College rather than hiding out on a long Grand Sneer as we suspected and wouldn't he have found many of these courses a great waste of time? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:14, 2 December 2013 (GMT) (From [[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]], apparently, so maybe from the Handbook. I'd still like confirmation. If so, I'd have to think of most as honorary degrees.} --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:50, 2 December 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
Ah, I see what you mean. I was relying on what was written on this wiki. I'm not familiar with the handbook. Do you mean Assassins Guild Yearbook - not that I'd know if it were included as I don't have that one. From the looks of it this is the change to the Assassins guild page that mentions it: http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Assassins%27_Guild&diff=13110&oldid=13096.<br />
<br />
: Is there some kind of standard referencing system used on this wiki to clear up confusions like this? I've been a keen reader of this wiki for quite a while, but my joining it is quite recent so I don't really know.<br />
<br />
EDIT: Having just had a quick look at 'The Library' - can't easily provide the link due to tablet and formatting but a quick google search for 'Havelock Vetinari Library' should show it up - under the page for Assassins it lists his qualifications as based on the Assassins Guild Yearbook.<br />
<br />
I would also suspect that, to a mind like Vetinari's, all knowledge is useful. Looking at them I can't really see any that wouldn't be of use in some way. Political Expediancy, science of inhumation and physical education all make sense for an assassin. Master assassin might be to do with the origional qualification granted by the guild or an additional level of teaching (e.g. BSc vs Masters vs Doctrate). The more curious ones are Member of the institute of Dance and Deportment, Doctor of Music, Doctor of God Studies, Doctor of Medicine and Applied Pathology and Master of Alchemical Science, but even then I think most of these can be explained. Dance and Deportment would be useful to someone entering a rather traditional world which values such skills - and Dance would encourage a number of skills of use to an assassin . Medicine and Applied Pathology would probably teach both how to kill and understand killing methods involving quite natural means (or at least means that appear natural) as well as what to do if one encounters problems oneself - and medicine would always be useful for staying alive (especially since the Doctors of Ankh-Morpork don't seem all that great - presents the option for the physician to heal thyself). Alchemical Science would probably be akin to chemistry, and useful in understanding the substances used in the guild (poisons, antidotes, sleeping draughts, etc). Music is perhaps a curious one - but then again it might be the precise nature, the skills involved and mental challenge that would interest him (it would probably encourage nimble fingers and mind - and might be useful to bear in mind he does seem to like puzzles). God studies might be the strangest - but considering how real the Deities of the Disc are it would probably be a good idea to understand them - and it might be worth considering there have been assassins like Teatime who'd considered how to inhume anthropomorphic personifications.<br />
<br />
If anything I'm suprised he didn't go on to get a Doctrate in Languages (which he probably has the skills for (and perhaps his understanding of Klatchian hints at this in Jingo) and seems the only potentially relevent qualification left for him to get in my mind). <br />
<br />
Perhaps, as he learnt in the guild origionally perhaps a wide variety of skills he might have decided to go on and formalise his knowledge. On the other hand perhaps he's a life long student, constantly seeking a new challenge (which seems quite fitting considering his improvements to the city).<br />
<br />
And, based on the age/time line discussion above and the timeline I've been working on, he may have had 7 to 17 years before becoming patrician - and theres at least a gap of 12 years between Night Watch and his assumed graduation according to The Truth - in which time he could have quite easily got quite a few qualifications. I think this would also leave time for the Grand Sneer - which might take only a year or two or three - still leaving plenty of time. Perhaps the Guild even does correspondance/distance learning/modular courses or special shorter courses that are of use to the average noble not going to go on to take the black. If he's patrician during The Colour of Magic then it seems he may have used the post graduate courses during his time as patrician. And perhaps he did extra study while at the guild initially - considering his study of Camouflage during Night Watch he seems a keen and attentive student, and perhaps once he'd reached the point where he could fail/get 100% for camouflage his attentions turned to other subjects. He really does seem an eclectic polymath. And don't forget his attitude to the books brought to him by the rat's during Guards! Guards! - 'Lacemaking through the ages'? (But that's assuming it wasn't a rebound book). The text even says 'he was not a man to ignore fresh knowledge'.<br />
<br />
Getting back to Qualifications (having so greatly deviated from the original topic of musical instruments - perhaps this should be copied to a new thread) now we have a potential refernece for the qualifications might it be worth listing them on Vetinari's page (so we don't have to keep swapping to the Assassins Guild page to learn what he qualified in)?<br />
<br />
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 01:15, 3 December 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Just been wondering across Youtube in search of tips on how to play irish fiddle music and due to the interconnectedness of all things stumbled upon this: <br />
<br />
Jeremy Irons learning to play the fiddle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvTxPz5L2tU <br />
<br />
Considering he played the Patrician in The Colour of Magic in a very Vetinari like way it reminded me of this thread. Can now mentally see Vetinari playing the fiddle, and not necessarily classical. <br />
<br />
--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 10:09, 16 May 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Glorious Revolution ==<br />
<br />
Any ideas on re-wording this to be bit better? I understood young Samuel Vimes was present, but the older self had gone back.<br />
As well, the Patrician fought in the event on the side of the Watchmen, though at a period Vimes was not present. <br />
--[[Special:Contributions/82.130.29.57|82.130.29.57]] 00:38, 24 February 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
== Past Havelock knows Vimes is Vimes... ==<br />
<br />
Having recently heard the audio book version of ''Night Watch'', something stuck out to me about halfway through. When Vimes (posing as Keel) goes to visit Vetinari's aunt, it is revealed once Vimes/Keel leaves that Havelock knows he is called Vimes. I don't understand where he came by this information or if this is a typo or simply needs to be chalked up to Vetinari being omniscient, even in the past. Thoughts?<br />
:In the book (Corgi PB, p.256), V. refers to him as Keel. A little brain-cramp in the audiobook script, maybe? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:13, 8 April 2013 (GMT)<br />
::Ah, must be, must be. Thanks for the info.<br />
<br />
== An Explanation for Overweight Vetinari ==<br />
<br />
This was just my two cents that I didn't know where-else I could post, but seeing as there were two explanations given to the massive discrepancy in weight and nature between Lord Vetinari between the initial Discworld books and subsequent tales;<br />
<br />
When beginning his career as Patrician, Lord Vetinari perhaps felt it appropriate to maintain the image of 'here comes the old boss, same as the new boss' as in appearing somewhat plump, cold and foreboding, without weakness yet exuberant and overindulging with a penchant for candied jellyfish (a vice that could be taken advantage of come need to dispose of him).<br />
<br />
The moment the masses perceived him to be just like the former patricians as a whole (a promising start only to lead to a spectacularly terrible finish) he could then lose the weight and vices, whipping the rug out from under the populace with such speed and skill, the majority (poor) didn't notice the change (or if they did, they didn't care), and the minority (wealthy) were in no position to point it out.<br />
--[[User:IronDino|IronDino]] ([[User talk:IronDino|talk]]) 17:16, 17 October 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
==A most amusing bit of trivia==<br />
I really don't know if Terry meant to do this deliberately or indeed if he was even aware of it. But in my Web meanderings, I have discovered that the American Sign Language gesture for "vagina", often used by deaf people talking among themselves to communicate displeasure at the personality, attitudes or general demotic-vagina-ness of a nearby hearing person, involves ''holding your hands flat, fingers together, thumbs extended, and the tips of the thumbs and forefingers touching.''<br />
<br />
In other words, ''steepling the fingers''.<br />
<br />
How many times does Vetinari do this in conversation with people he finds irksome, stupid or annoying? Is it a private joke? We are told Vetinari is multi-lingual, and elsewhere that Assassins have a sign-language and finger code they use among their own.... the question is, does he consciously refrain from this mannerism if he ever needs to discuss issues with the Ankh-Morpork Society For The Deaf? (unless he finds their representatives to be irksome or annoying...). I must work this into fanfic now I know of it...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 12:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Reminds me of ''The Da Vinci Code'' film, now you point it out, although there the symbolism was the other way up to represent the feminine (i.e. a 'V' shape). Along similar lines of thought (if increasingly tenuous to the discussion re: Discworld books etc)the symbolism for the natural elements of Air (Intellect) and Fire (Spirit) (masculine elements)incorporate triangles pointing upwards - which I guess could be thought similar to steepled fingers. It certainly is an interesting idea it being code (whether private joke or designed to be interpreted/understood by someone - regardless of the meaning/symbolism - in which case, is there any consistency in the occurrence?). Then again, it could be one of those interesting 'coincidences' Narrativia has thrown in Terry's path, which he's sort of mentioned happening before. --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC) OK - just done a bit more googling and also found that the shape of steepled fingers could also correlate to the symbols for 'action' or 'shelter' in 'Bliss language' (Not the same Bliss referred to in {{SOD4}} but an interesting coincidence nonetheless)--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
Very sorry to post again, but rereading your post I couldn't help but wonder where it says Vetinari's multilingual. Personally I think he is, but I don't recall any direct mention in the books (except or the hint when he understands but claims not to have spoken - which is different to not being able to speak - Klatchian in {{J}} ) and based on his list of qualifications there's no mention of him being a Doctor of Languages (which seems odd considering everything else he's got and the relevance of such a qualification to his occupation). --[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 19:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
:I remember the mention of languages as his academic "major" at the College. I can't say where it was, of course. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)<br />
::I don't know whether this is the reference your thinking of, but I've just found a mention to him studying languages at the Assassins Guild in Jingo - no mention of it being a major just 'studied' - I'd of thought if he'd majored in it it would add some letters behind his name (But then again, for all we know the list of qualifications in the Yearbook might not be exhaustive) and languages would, perhaps, be a normal (if smaller if not followed up by the pupil) part of the Guilds teachings.<br />
::--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 06:43, 21 February 2014 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Sexuality==<br />
I know that there are hints that Vetinari is in some kind of relationship with Lady Margolotta, but there is a hint in Unseen Academicals that he might be gay, Glenda at one point muses that 'no one knew which side of the bed he got out of, or if he got out of bed at all', suggesting that, at least in the realm of Ankh Morpork rumour, he could be gay or a-sexual. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this idea? --(unsigned comment by [[User: Jarona]] 15 August 2014)<br />
<br />
:While I personally don't follow the idea that he's gay (ok, I'll admit it, I'm also more than a bit Havelocked so I'm not exactly inclined to think that way - though it would be typical: all the best men are gay, taken, fictional or dead, after all) perhaps this reference/rumor is a nod towards the fanfiction archives: it's hard at times to go scrolling through AO3 without seeing his Lordship embroiled in some affair or other - often enough with Vimes. As of today there are 330 works listed as featuring Vetinari, 91 of which feature a relationship (beyond normal work, if you see what I mean) with Commander Vimes, 30 of which feature a relationship with Drumknott, 2 with Von Lipwig and even one with Carrot. And that's only on AO3 - I know there's other archives out there (Fanfiction.net springs to mind). That's quite a contrast to the 9 where he's involved with Sybil Ramkin and 8 where he's involved with Margolotta. Then there's those who suggest he's bi-sexual: there's 16 works on AO3 where he's involved with Sam AND Sybil. And then there's those with Original Characters - but thats another story (literally)<br />
:What I find funny is how there's even a few fanfictions out there that play on the idea of the rumors. It's hardly surprising really: a tyrants love life is bound to attract some attention from the gossip-hungry public (and political opponents, of course).<br />
:You can even see characters in canon speculating a bit. I'd completely forgotten (or probably naively taken as read) the quote you mentioned,but there's also a bit in [[The Truth]], for example:<br />
::''"Mrs Arcanum patted her hair. 'I've always thought Lord Vetinari was a most handsome man,' she said, and then looked flustered when they all stared at her. 'I meant, I'm just a little surprised there isn't a Lady Vetinari. As it were. Ahem.'! ''<br />
<br />
:I think part of it is that some people don't buy to the Vetinari/Margolotta relationship - I actually remember finding a page one time that listed reasons this canon-mentioned relationship might not be active during most the canon, and thus why people might not believe in it. Even before finding that I was having my doubts: there's so much potential interference with politics to start with, and the distance might not help, but it's a useful political tool both benefit from by maintaining the illusion - You can see that in Raising Steam when certain suggestions are made a train to Uberwald would ease "political" relations - which it does, in a way, but with the Dwarves mainly.<br />
:As a result (I think), since people are still looking for someone to pair him up with (Modern Jane Austen style), Vimes and a love/hate relationship seems to be the popular option.<br />
:And there goes a chunk of what I was hoping to write as a paper one day on the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork (because studying a single fictional character of the Disc is a ton more fun than revising Phytochemistry and other Herbalism related subjects that I need to do).<br />
:--[[User:GallifreyanWitch|Verity]] ([[User talk:GallifreyanWitch|talk]]) 17:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=List_of_Pratchett_characters&diff=35218List of Pratchett characters2024-02-09T21:52:08Z<p>Old Dickens: right the first time</p>
<hr />
<div>'''Alphabetical list of characters in the works of Terry Pratchett'''<br />
<br />
'''There are over 1100 individuals listed on this site. For more complete lists, please also follow links to [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]], [[:Category:Characters by book]] etc.<br />
<br />
When including characters, please also add them to a relevant category, or create one for the book if necessary (should only be needed for non-Discworld books).<br />
<br />
=Major Discworld characters=<br />
'''Major characters are those with dialogue in three or more books or who are in some other way important (like the Luggage).'''<br />
<br />
===Ankh-Morpork and The Watch===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in {{G!G!}}, {{MAA}}, {{FOC}}, {{J}}, {{TFE}}, {{NW}}, {{T!}}, and {{SN}}<br />
<br />
* [[Mrs. Cake]]<br />
* [[Fred Colon]] (Sergeant, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Mrs. Marietta Cosmopilite]]<br />
* [[Detritus]] (Sergeant, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler]]<br />
* [[Dorfl]], ([[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Rufus Drumknott]] (current assistant to Lord [[Havelock Vetinari]])<br />
* [[Gaspode]] the Wonder Dog<br />
* [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]] (Captain, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Leonard of Quirm]]<br />
* [[Cheery Littlebottom]] (Sergeant, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Nobby Nobbs]] (Corporal, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Lady Sybil Ramkin]], Duchess of Ankh<br />
* [[Foul Ole Ron]]<br />
* [[Reg Shoe]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Mr. Slant]]<br />
* [[Angua von &Uuml;berwald]] (Captain, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Havelock Vetinari|Lord Havelock Vetinari]] (current [[Patrician]] of [[Ankh-Morpork]])<br />
* [[Samuel Vimes]] (Commander, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]], Duke of Ankh)<br />
* [[Visit-the-Infidel-with-Explanatory-Pamphlets]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Willikins]], Butler to [[Samuel Vimes]]<br />
<br />
===Unseen University and the Wizards===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in {{ER}}, {{S}}, {{E}}, {{RM}}, {{LL}}, {{H}}, and {{TLC}}<br />
* The [[Bursar]]<br />
* [[Coin]]<br />
* The [[Chair of Indefinite Studies]]<br />
* The [[Dean]]<br />
* [[Hex]]<br />
* Doctor [[John Hicks|Hix]]<br />
* The [[Lecturer in Recent Runes]]<br />
* The [[Librarian]] (formerly Dr [[Horace Worblehat]])<br />
* [[The Luggage]]<br />
* [[Mustrum Ridcully]] (Archchancellor, [[Unseen University]])<br />
* [[Rincewind]] (Professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography)<br />
* The [[Senior Wrangler]]<br />
* [[Ponder Stibbons]]<br />
* Mrs. [[Whitlow]]<br />
<br />
===Lancre and the Witches===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[Equal Rites]], [[Wyrd Sisters]], [[Witches Abroad]], [[Lords and Ladies]], [[Maskerade]], and [[Carpe Jugulum]]<br />
<br />
* [[Gammer Brevis]]<br />
* [[Magrat Garlick]]<br />
* [[Greebo]]<br />
* [[Agnes Nitt]] (aka Perdita X Dream)<br />
* [[Jason Ogg]]<br />
* [[Gytha Ogg]], (aka "Nanny")<br />
* [[Shawn Ogg]]<br />
* [[Eskarina Smith]]<br />
* [[Tomjon]]<br />
* [[Lucy Tockley]] (aka Diamanda)<br />
* [[Verence II]]<br />
* [[Esmerelda Weatherwax]], (aka "Granny")<br />
* [[Lily Weatherwax]], (aka Lilith Tempscire) (originally from Lancre)<br />
<br />
===Death's Domain and supernatural entities===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[Mort]], [[Reaper Man]], [[Soul Music]], [[Hogfather]], and [[Thief of Time]]<br />
<br />
* [[Auditors of Reality]]<br />
* [[Albert]] (Alberto Malich, the wise)<br />
* [[Binky]]<br />
* [[Blind Io]]<br />
* [[Death]]<br />
* [[Death of Rats]]<br />
* [[Fate]]<br />
* [[The Lady]]<br />
* [[Mort]]<br />
* [[Offler]]<br />
* [[Om]]<br />
* [[Quoth]]<br />
* [[Susan Sto Helit]]<br />
* [[Ysabell]]<br />
See also [[the gods]], [[anthropomorphic personification]] and [[Supernatural Entities]] for gods and other entities who appear in only one or two books.<br />
<br />
===Tiffany Aching===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[The Wee Free Men]], [[A Hat Full of Sky]], [[Wintersmith]], and [[I Shall Wear Midnight]]<br />
<br />
* [[Tiffany Aching]]<br />
* [[Rob Anybody]]<br />
* [[Roland]] de Chumsfanleigh (Pronounced Chuffley - it's not his fault)<br />
* [[Letice Earwig]]<br />
* [[Annagramma Hawkin]]<br />
* [[Jeannie]]<br />
* Miss [[Perspicacia Tick]]<br />
* [[Daft Wullie]]<br />
<br />
===Industrial Revolution Characters===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in {{MP}}, {{TT}}, {{GP}}, {{MM}} and {{RS}} <br />
* [[Otto Chriek]]<br />
* [[Sacharissa Cripslock]]<br />
* [[Adora Belle Dearheart]] (also known as ''Spike'' and ''Killer'')<br />
* [[Moist von Lipwig]]<br />
* [[William de Worde]], (Editor of the [[Ankh-Morpork Times]])<br />
<br />
=Minor Discworld characters=<br />
<br />
===Ankh-Morpork and The Watch===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in {{G!G!}}, {{MAA}}, {{FOC}}, {{J}}, {{TFE}}, {{NW}}, {{T!}}, and {{SN}}<br />
* [[Agony Aunts]], Sadie & Dotsie<br />
* [[71-hour Ahmed]]<br />
* [[Altogether Andrews]]<br />
* [[Grag]] [[Ardent]]<br />
* [[Wee Mad Arthur]]<br />
* [[Grag]] [[Bashfull Bashfullsson]]<br />
* [[Stoker Blake]]<br />
* [[Rupert Bleakley]]<br />
* [[The Hon. J. Bleedwell]]<br />
* [[Bluejohn]] (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Boffo (Clown)|Boffo]]<br />
* [[Brakenshield]] (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Brick]]<br />
* [[Carcer]]<br />
* [[Chrysoprase]] (the [[Breccia]])<br />
* [[Cecil Clapman]], also known as "Snouty" (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Ned Coates]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Cruces|Dr. Cruces]]<br />
* [[Cuddy]] (Lance-Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Dai Dickins]], (Sergeant, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Doughnut Jimmy]]<br />
* [[Lord Downey]] (head of the [[Assassins' Guild]])<br />
* [[Downspout]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[the Duck Man]]<br />
* [[Edward d'Eath]]<br />
* [[Errol]]<br />
* [[Legitimate First]], (cryptkeeper of the cemetery of Small Gods)<br />
* [[Zlorf Flannelfoot]], former president of the Guild of Assassins<br />
* [[Gimlet Gimlet]]<br />
* [[Grag]] [[Hamcrusher]]<br />
* [[Helmclever]]<br />
* [[Sally von Humpeding]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Gunder Ironcrust]]<br />
* [[Setha Ironcrust]]<br />
* [[All Jolson]]<br />
* [[John Keel]], (Sergeant-At-Arms, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Dr. Lawn]]<br />
* [[Lady Roberta Meserole]] (also known as Madam)<br />
* [[Mica]] (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Horace Nancyball]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Rosemary Palm]] of the [[Seamstresses' Guild]]<br />
* [[Pepe]]<br />
* [[A.E. Pessimal]]<br />
* [[Doc Pseudopolis]]<br />
* [[Verity Pushpram]] (also known as ''Hammerhead'')<br />
* [[Reet]], [[Seamstresses' Guild|Seamstress]] and former girlfriend of [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]]<br />
* [[Rodney]]<br />
* [[Ronald Rust]]<br />
* [[Sammies]]<br />
* [[Schist]] (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Albert Selachii]]<br />
* [[Arnold Sideways]]<br />
* [[Mr Shine]]<br />
* [[Inigo Skimmer]]<br />
* [[Mad Lord Snapcase]]<br />
* [[Wallace Sonky]]<br />
* Sir [[Reynold Stitched]]<br />
* [[Findthee Swing]]<br />
* [[Buggy Swires]]<br />
* [[Pors Stronginthearm]] of [[Burleigh & Stronginthearm]]<br />
* [[Tawneee]]<br />
* [[Grabpot Thundergust]]<br />
* [[Charles Venturi]]<br />
* [[Vortin]]<br />
* [[Eric Wheelbrace]], author of [[Walking in the Koom Valley]]<br />
* [[Billy Wiglet]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Lord Winder]]<br />
* [[Notfaroutoe|Arthur Winkings]] (also known as Count [[Notfaroutoe]])<br />
* [[Notfaroutoe|Doreen Winkings]] (also known as Countess [[Notfaroutoe]])<br />
* [[Lupine Wonse]] (previous assistant to Lord [[Havelock Vetinari]] of [[Ankh-Morpork]])<br />
<br />
===Unseen University and The Wizards===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[Equal Rites]], [[Sourcery]], [[Eric]], [[Reaper Man]], [[Lords and Ladies]], [[Hogfather]], [[The Last Continent]], [[The Last Hero]], and [[Unseen Academicals]]<br />
<br />
* [[Bethan]]<br />
* [[Skarmer Billias]]<br />
* [[Drum Billet]]<br />
* [[Cohen the Barbarian]] (leader of the [[Silver Horde]])<br />
* [[Conina]] (the barbarian hairdresser)<br />
* The [[Creator]] (of Discworld)<br />
* The [[Creator (of the Continent XXXX)]]<br />
* [[Cutangle]] (Past Archchancellor, [[Unseen University]])<br />
* [[Herrena]]<br />
* [[Trevor Likely]]<br />
* [[Mightily Oats]]<br />
* [[Modo]]<br />
* Mr. [[Nutt]], UU [[Candle Dribbler]] and [[Orcs|orc]]<br />
* [[Windle Poons]]<br />
* [[Hughnon Ridcully]], High Priest of [[Blind Io]]<br />
* Madame [[Sharn]]<br />
* [[Spelter]]<br />
* [[Juliet Stollop]] (Jooles), Night Kitchen girl & fashion model sensation<br />
* [[Glenda Sugarbean]], Head Cook of Unseen University's Night Kitchen<br />
* [[Adrian Turnipseed]], (also known as "Big Mad Drongo")<br />
* [[Twoflower]]<br />
* [[Galder Weatherwax]] (Past Archchancellor, [[Unseen University]])<br />
<br />
===Lancre and The Witches===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[Equal Rites]], [[Wyrd Sisters]], [[Witches Abroad]], [[Lords and Ladies]], [[Maskerade]], and [[Carpe Jugulum]]<br />
<br />
* [[Andr&eacute;]]<br />
* [[Marmaric Carding]]<br />
* [[Casanunda]]<br />
* [[Old Mother Dismass]]<br />
* [[Lady Felmet|Duchess Felmet]]<br />
* [[Leonal Felmet|Duke Felmet]]<br />
* [[Hodgesaargh]]<br />
* [[Desiderata Hollow]]<br />
* [[Hwel]]<br />
* [[Mightily Oats]]<br />
* [[Walter Plinge]]<br />
* [[Mr Pounder]]<br />
* Mr. [[Salzella]]<br />
* [[Ella Saturday]]<br />
* [[Olwyn Vitoller]]<br />
* [[Goodie Whemper]]<br />
<br />
===Death's Domain and Supernatural Entities===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[Mort]], [[Reaper Man]], [[Soul Music]], [[Hogfather]], and [[Thief of Time]]<br />
<br />
* The [[Abbot]]<br />
* [[Lias Bluestone]]<br />
* [[Duke Bottomley]]<br />
* [[Imp y Celyn]]<br />
* [[Mr. Clete]]<br />
* [[Jeremy Clockson]]<br />
* [[Keli]]<br />
* [[Myria LeJean]]<br />
* [[Lu-Tze]] (also known as ''Sweeper''), one of the [[History Monks]]<br />
* [[Lobsang Ludd]]<br />
* [[Qu]]<br />
* [[Marco Soto]]<br />
* [[William Spigot]]<br />
* [[Jonathan Teatime]]<br />
* [[Wen the Eternally Surprised]]<br />
* [[Gabby Wheels]]<br />
<br />
===Tiffany Aching===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in [[The Wee Free Men]], [[A Hat Full of Sky]], [[Wintersmith]], and [[I Shall Wear Midnight]]<br />
<br />
* [[Granny Aching]]<br />
* [[Wentworth Aching]]<br />
* [[Jenny Greenteeth]]<br />
* [[Toad]]<br />
<br />
===Industrial Revolution Characters===<br />
Featuring characters appearing in {{MP}}, {{TT}}, {{GP}}, {{MM}} and {{RS}}<br />
<br />
* [[Gaffer Bird]]<br />
* [[Boddony]]<br />
* [[Reacher Gilt]]<br />
* [[Gladys]] ([[Golem]] at the [[Post Office]])<br />
* [[Gunilla Goodmountain]]<br />
* [[Tolliver Groat]]<br />
* [[Laddie]]<br />
* [[Iodine Maccalariat]] (Miss Maccalariat)<br />
* [[Mr. Pin]]<br />
* [[Mr. Pony]] of the [[Artificers' Guild]]<br />
* Mr. [[Pump]]<br />
* [[Sendivoge]]<br />
* [[Thomas Silverfish]]<br />
* [[Victor Tugelbend]] (also known as Victor Maraschino)<br />
* [[Mr. Tulip]]<br />
* [[Theda Withel]] (also known as "Ginger" and "Delores De Syn")<br />
* [[Harry King]]<br />
<br />
===Discworld Cultures===<br />
Featuring characters from [[Pyramids]], [[Small Gods]], [[The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents]], and [[Monstrous Regiment]]<br />
<br />
* [[Aristocrates]]<br />
* [[Brutha]]<br />
* [[Didactylos]]<br />
* [[Dios]] ({{P}})<br />
* [[Ibid]]<br />
* [[Jack Jackrum]]<br />
* The Amazing [[Maurice]]<br />
* [[Polly Perks]]<br />
* [[Ptaclusp]] ({{P}})<br />
* [[Ptaclusp IIa]] ({{P}})<br />
* [[Ptaclusp IIb]] ({{P}})<br />
* [[Ptraci]] ({{P}})<br />
* Sergeant [[Simony]]<br />
* [[Teppic]] (King Pteppicymon XXVIII {{P}})<br />
* [[St. Ungulant]] (full name Sevrian Thaddeus Ungulant)<br />
* [[Urn]]<br />
* [[Vorbis]]<br />
* [[Xeno]]<br />
<br />
===Überwald===<br />
<br />
* [[Sally von Humpeding]], (Constable, [[Ankh-Morpork City Watch|City Watch]])<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Ankh-Morpork City Watch, Ankh-Morpork|Igor at Ankh-Morpork City Watch, Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Ankh-Morpork Embassy in Bonk, Überwald|Igor at Ankh-Morpork Embassy in Bonk, Überwald]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at the Baron's, Bonk, Überwald|Igor at the Baron's, Bonk, Überwald]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Biers, Ankh-Morpork|Igor at Biers, Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at the Lady Sybil Free Hospital|Igor at the Lady Sybil Free Hospital]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Jeremy Clockson's, Ankh-Morpork|Igor at Jeremy Clockson's, Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor who worked for Demented Doctor Wingle in Bad Schuschein|Igor who worked for Demented Doctor Wingle in Bad Schuschein]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Don'tgonearthe Castle, Überwald|Igor at Don'tgonearthe Castle, Überwald]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Reacher Gilt's, Ankh-Morpork|Igor at Reacher Gilt's, Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Hobson's Livery Stable, Ankh-Morpork|Igor at Hobson's Livery Stable, Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor in the Ins-and-Outs, Borogravia|Igor in the Ins-and-Outs, Borogravia]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at Lady Margolotta's, Bonk, Überwald|Igor at Lady Margolotta's, Bonk, Überwald]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor who works for Doctor Thaumic near Bonk, Uberwald|Igor who works for Doctor Thaumic near Bonk, Uberwald]]<br />
* [[Igor#Aunt Igorina who runs We-R-Igors at Bad Schuschein|Aunt Igorina who runs We-R-Igors at Bad Schuschein]]<br />
* [[Igor#Igor at the Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork|Igor at the Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
* [[Mightily Oats]]<br />
* [[Bela de Magpyr]]<br />
* [[Count de Magpyr]]<br />
* [[Lacrimosa de Magpyr]]<br />
* [[Vlad de Magpyr]]<br />
* [[Lady Margolotta]]<br />
* [[Rhys Rhysson]], [[Low King]] of the [[dwarfs]]<br />
* [[Guye von Überwald]] <br />
* [[Serafine von Überwald]]<br />
* [[Wolfgang von Überwald]]<br />
* [[Yennorks]]<br />
<br />
=Discworld Historical Figures=<br />
* [[Achmed The Mad]]<br />
* [[B'hrian Bloodaxe]], [[Low King]] of the [[dwarfs]]<br />
* [[St Bobby]]<br />
* [[Carelinus]]<br />
* [[Rolande de Colline]]<br />
* [[Aliss Demurrage]] (aka [[Black Aliss]])<br />
* [[Bergholt Stuttley Johnson]] ("Bloody Stupid" Johnson)<br />
* [[Khuft]] - founder of The Old Kingdom<br />
* [[Lorenzo the Kind]]<br />
* [[Olaf Quimby II]]<br />
* [[Ossory]]<br />
* [[Methodia Rascal]]<br />
* [[Riktor]]<br />
* General [[Callus Tacticus]]<br />
* [["Stoneface" Vimes]]<br />
* Queen [[Ynci]]<br />
<br />
=Characters from books not set in the Discworld universe=<br />
===The Dark Side of the Sun===<br />
*[[Chatogaster]]<br />
*The [[First Sirian Bank]]<br />
*[[Ig]]<br />
*[[Isaac]] the robot<br />
*[[Korodore]]<br />
*[[Dom Sabalos]]<br />
*[[Joan Sabalos]]<br />
*[[Arte Sadhim]]<br />
*[[Darven Samhedi]]<br />
*[[Charles Sub-Lunar]]<br />
*[[Ways]]<br />
<br />
===Strata===<br />
*[[Kin Arad]]<br />
*[[The Committee]]<br />
*[[Leiv Eriksson]]<br />
*[[Marco Farfarer]]<br />
*[[Abu Ibn Infra]]<br />
*[[Jago Jalo]]<br />
*[[Silver (Strata)|Silver]]<br />
<br />
===Bromeliad series===<br />
*[[Grimma]]<br />
*[[Angalo de Haberdasheri]]<br />
*The Duke [[Cido de Haberdasheri]]<br />
*The [[Baroness del Icatessen]]<br />
*[[Dorcas del Icatessen]]<br />
*The [[Count de Ironmongri]]<br />
*[[Kiddie-Klothians|Nooty Kiddies-Klothes]]<br />
*[[Masklin]]<br />
*[[Granny Morkie]]<br />
*Old [[Torrit]]<br />
*[[Nicco]]<br />
*[[Nisodemus]]<br />
*[[Sacco]]<br />
*The [[Abbot of the Stationeri]]<br />
*[[Gurder]] de Stationeri<br />
*[[The Thing]]<br />
<br />
===Good Omens===<br />
*[[Adam Young]], leader of [[the Them]], the antichrist<br />
*[[Anathema Device]], professional descendant<br />
*[[Aziraphale]], angel<br />
*[[Beelezebub]], Prince of Hell<br />
*[[Brian ("Good Omens")|Brian]], one of [[the Them]]<br />
*[[Anthony Crowley|Crowley]], an angel who did not so much fall as saunter vaguely downwards<br />
*[[Death (Good Omens)|Death]], a Horseman of the Apocalypse<br />
*[[Dog]], a hellhound<br />
*[[Famine (Good Omens)|Famine]], a Horseman of the Apocalypse<br />
*[[Hastur]], a Fallen Angel<br />
*[[Ligur]], a likewise fallen Angel<br />
*[[Madame Tracy]] also named [[Marjorie Potts]]<br />
*the [[Metatron]], or Voice of God<br />
*[[Newton Pulsifer]], Witchfinder Private<br />
*Pippin Galadriel Moonchild, or [[Pepper]], one of [[the Them]]<br />
*[[Pollution]], a Horseman of the Apocalypse<br />
*[[Shadwell]], a Witchfinder Sergeant<br />
*[[War (Good Omens)|War]], a Horseman of the Apocalypse<br />
*[[Warlock (character)|Warlock]], son of a cultural attache, not the Antichrist<br />
*[[Wensleydale]], one of [[the Them]]<br />
*[[Mrs. Deirdre Young]], 'Mother' to [[Adam Young]]<br />
*[[Mr. Young]], 'Father' to [[Adam Young]]<br />
<br />
===Johnny Maxwell series===<br />
*[[Bigmac]]<br />
*[[Johnny Maxwell]]<br />
*[[Kirsty]]<br />
*[[Wobbler]]<br />
*[[Yo-less]]<br />
<br />
===Nation===<br />
*[[Ataba]]<br />
*[[Cookie]]<br />
*[[Cox]]<br />
*[[Ermintrude Fanshaw]], aka ''Daphne''<br />
*[[Daphne's Grandmother]]<br />
*[[Henry Fanshaw]], Daphne's Father<br />
*Mr [[Griffith]]<br />
*Mrs. [[Gurgle]]<br />
*[[Mau]]<br />
*[[Milo]]<br />
*[[Nawi]]<br />
*[[Pilu]]<br />
*[[Nathan Roberts]]<br />
*[[Lionel Samson]]<br />
<br />
===The Long Earth===<br />
*[[Douglas Black]]<br />
*[[Lobsang]]<br />
<br />
===Dodger===<br />
*[[Dodger]]<br />
*[[Solomon Cohen]]<br />
<br />
Note: Some character pages may not yet have been added to this list. Check the relevant categories to be sure.<br />
<br />
{{listdev}}<br />
<br />
=External links=<br />
*{{ls|/books/whos-who/|L-Space Web, Who's Who}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Characters by book| ]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Book:The_Streets_of_Ankh-Morpork&diff=35212Book:The Streets of Ankh-Morpork2024-02-08T05:00:56Z<p>Old Dickens: Vade Mecum NLA</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Book Data<br />
|title=The Streets of Ankh-Morpork<br />
|cover=[[File:The Streets of Ankh-Morpork.jpg|The Streets of Ankh-Morpork]]<br />
|coauthors=[[Stephen Briggs]]<br />
|illustrator=[[Stephen Player]]<br />
|publisher=Corgi<br />
|date=November 1993<br />
|isbn=0552141615<br />
|pages=24<br />
|rrp=£4.99<br />
|series=Maps<br />
|characters=<br />
|annotations=<br />
|notes=<br />
}}<br />
<br />
'''''The Streets of Ankh-Morpork''''', the first in the "Discworld Mapp" series, was released in 1993, and could be considered one of the first "supplemental" works in the Discworld canon. It consists of a large square fold-out map of the city of [[Ankh-Morpork]] and a booklet containing an introduction by [[Terry Pratchett]], and information about how the map itself was devised, written by [[Stephen Briggs]]. The remainder of the booklet contains a list of locations on the map shown by grid reference.<br />
<br />
This is one of only a handful of Discworld publications to be illustrated by [[Stephen Player]] rather than [[Josh Kirby]] or [[Paul Kidby]].<br />
<br />
In November 2012, an updated and more comprehensive street mapp of the City was released to accompany the book ''[[The Compleat Ankh-Morpork]]''. This provides names for a lot of the streets, alleys, locations and institutions that were un-named on the original Mapp. <br />
<br />
==Blurb==<br />
<blockquote>Being a conci&#x017F;e and possibly even accurate MAPP of the Great City of the DISCWORLD.</blockquote><br />
<br />
<blockquote>Including [[Unseen University|Un&#x017F;een University]] and environs!</blockquote><br />
<br />
<blockquote>Also finest assortment of avenues, lanes, squares, and alleys for your walking pleasure.</blockquote><br />
<br />
"There's a saying that all roads lead to Ankh-Morpork. And it's wrong. All roads lead away from Ankh-Morpork, but sometimes people walk along them the wrong way." &mdash;from {{MP}}<br />
<br />
Ankh-Morpork! City of One Thousand Surprises (according to the famous publication by the [[Guild of Merchants]])! All human life is there! Although, if it walks down the wrong alley, often quite briefly!<br />
<br />
The city celebrated in the bestselling Discworld series by Terry Pratchett has been meticulously mapped for the first time. It's all here &ndash; from ''Unseen University'' to the [[The Shades|the ''Shades'']], from major landmarks like the ''[[Patrician's Palace]]'' to little-known, er, nooks like the ''[[Dwarf Bread Museum]]'' in ''[[Whirligig Alley]]''. See the famous streets along which so many [[Barbarian heroes|heroes]] have walked, in some cases quite hurriedly!<br />
<br />
As leading Ankh-Morpork entrepreneur [[C.M.O.T. Dibbler]] would say: A snip at any price &ndash; and that's cutting our own throat. Well, close.<br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
* {{DC}}<br />
* {{DM}}<br />
* {{TGL}}<br />
* {{DD}}<br />
* {{CAM}}<br />
<br />
== External links ==<br />
* ''[https://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/book/the-streets-of-ankh-morpork The Streets of Ankh-Morpork]'' on terrypratchettbooks.com<br />
* ''[http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/the-streets-of-ankh-morpork.html The Streets of Ankh-Morpork]'' on the [[Annotated Pratchett File]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Maps|Streets of Ankh-Morpork, The]]<br />
[[Category:Discworld Series|Streets of Ankh-Morpork, The]]<br />
[[Category:Ankh-Morpork Series|Streets of Ankh-Morpork, The]]<br />
[[Category:Reference|Streets of Ankh-Morpork, The]]<br />
[[de:Buch:Die Stra&szlig;en von Ankh-Morpork Eine Scheibenwelt-Karte]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Josiah_Remnant&diff=35211Talk:Josiah Remnant2024-02-06T05:16:54Z<p>Old Dickens: artistic criticism</p>
<hr />
<div>However elderly the couple being attacked by a Werewolf, could it be a still life? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Attention_Surplus_Disorder&diff=35210Talk:Attention Surplus Disorder2024-02-02T05:50:35Z<p>Old Dickens: also in Blackbury</p>
<hr />
<div>Across the the multiverse, it may affect Johnny Maxwell's mate [[Yo-Less]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:50, 2 February 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35200User:Old Dickens2024-01-31T06:16:06Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
<hr />
<div><br />
==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
<br />
There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
<br />
Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
==Bridge==<br />
<br />
'''M'''y family goes back to a cyanobacterium. Doesn't yours?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''б'''раво україно!<br />
<br />
==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Discworld_calendar&diff=35199Talk:Discworld calendar2024-01-29T17:03:40Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
<hr />
<div>Can someone please go through the Discworld calendars and find more special days? Mine are in German. I am also not able to find more references for the names of the years. Apparently 2005 was the year of the prawn. --[[User:Jogibaer|Jogibaer]] 21:59, 5 April 2006 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==Move article?==<br />
Maybe it is necessary to move this article to a different spot and introduce a disambiguous page. Why? Because the user could be looking for the discworld calendar books. Opinions? --[[User:Jogibaer|Jogibaer]] 22:39, 29 August 2006 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:On wikipedia they seem to include a line at the top (italicised) saying "If you're actually looking for (similar name), go to that page". As we have the book namespace precisely to keep them out of the other articles, we could adopt a similar approach here. --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 23:17, 29 August 2006 (CEST)<br />
:: Done. --[[User:Jogibaer|Jogibaer]] 20:25, 30 August 2006 (CEST)<br />
==Named Centuries==<br />
I added the '''Century of the Three Lice''' which is when [[Windle Poons]] was born so we know it was immediately before the '''Century of the Fruitbat''' but I got it from the companion so I don't know what book it's from.--[[User:Teletran|Teletran]] 20:27, 10 February 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Current Year==<br />
How do we know the the current year? The timeline has been baffling me for some time (and Orin Thomas too, apparently; his update is overdue.) Following the Lspace timeline, the most recent history [[Book:Thud!|(''Thud!'')]] should be 1990. The new century seems to have begun in 1989, but how long has it been since?--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 22:48, 10 February 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
Another problem is that the Discworld (short) year has 400 days and we don't actually know how long a day is, so aligning our calendars may be impossible. I have calculated a twelve-year lag as of the last change of century, but this may not be constant. If we assume equal days, the Discworld year is about a month longer than ours, but the days may be shorter or longer. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Holidays==<br />
The description of the calendar in {{COM}} indicates that Hogswatch begins the 800 day year and doesn't occur in Spindlewinter. This idea doesn't seem to appear again; {{H}} would suggest that the Hogswatch celebration is necessary to produce another sunrise, why not in Spindlewinter? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 02:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Calendar idea ==<br />
<br />
Whoa! Remember how TP loves sneaking the number 57 into everything? If a "century" is 57 Great Years under the AM calendar (114 years UC)- then the turn of the 41st century from the founding of the city (1 AM) is 1996 UC: a '''much''' more comfortable date.<br />
<br />
After all, Wizards ''avoid'' the number, err, "7a." Too many 8's could even lead to the Things breaking through! Actually to celebrate years ending in doubled 8's- well, remember Mr Hong's fish bar? Not only is 57 reassuringly prime, but it's also another prime, 7, away from 8^2=64 - safe as houses, numerically. 8 and 57 have no common multiples at all, save their own.<br />
<br />
Or, from another perspective, the animal-year cycle and animal-century cycle could very well predate Albert and UU, and have rolled on uninterrupted from the beginning (much as the traditional Chinese calendar continues despite China's adoption of the Gregorian in modern times).--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 06:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Nope. You don't talk about 7a and no one says it's 1988; circumlocution is highly developed in that area, but eight happens. Eights are quite common, magic being quite common, and it seems like a natural for the change of (animal) centuries, besides working well with the rest of the history. Fifty-seven I find contrived and unlikely. The named centuries apparently originated in Krull and may be older than Ankh-Morpork. I don't know why 1996 would be more comfortable; there would be several years missing. (80*57 - 2564 = 1996 too.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 17:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Calendar Question ==<br />
<br />
Maybe I missed something, but where is it stated that the AM calendar uses 800 days and the University Calender 400? If that's true, there's something very odd going on with Albert's age. In Mort his statue is dated AM 1,222-1,289. This makes him 67 (which is what Ysabell says his age is). But if that's Great Years (as an 800 day AM calendar would imply) he's actually 134 which is more than even Windle Poons managed and he was wheelchair bound and senile. I've checked everywhere else I can and I can't find a reference to different calendars anywhere in the books. So, can anyone point me to where it comes from? [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 13:31, 21 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
:Of course it's a ''Well-Known Fact'' and confirmed in [[Book:The Celebrated Discworld Almanak|''The Celebrated Discworld Almanak'']], for example, but you know, I can't recall the source either. The statue dates look like what we call a ''mistake'', but perhaps we could assume that Wizards were longer-lived in those days and that they use full years in Death's Domain. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:45, 22 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
::Or, more simple, things weren't written in stone. I mean, going by the books pre wyrd sisters/reaper man Rincewind had a more or less fulfilling sexlife, for example.--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 01:01, 22 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
:Actually, I expect the statue dates ''were'' written in stone, but off the topic, you should fill in Rincewind's sex life in his article; I don't remember much of that either. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 01:24, 22 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
::It's mainly in CoM and TLF. Only hinted. In a rather obvious way. Remember the line after Rinso managed to cast magic in the weird town? The line that was something like -Of course he knew what an orgasm was-?--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 02:22, 22 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
::: In all fairness it then went on to point out that sometimes he had had one in company. I'm not certain that counts as a fulfilling sex life. I always took it as a reference to occasional meetings with seamstresses. As regards the great years thing, I had a feeling it was somewhere like that (what I would call beta-canon). I only have the novels, so I only work from them and my suspicion is that there's no such reference in the books themselves. Still there's no reason to disbelieve it so that's fine. Thanks for letting me know. [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 11:10, 22 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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::: Actually, while I think about it, can you give me the exact quote from the Almanack? I've love to know precisely what it says. Cheers. [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 16:30, 22 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
:Everything about the ''Almanak'', actually. It starts with the foreword "...being known as the Common Year 2005, Scholar's Year 1657 & The Year of the Prawn. The Sun Rises Left as I face the Hub".<BR>It goes on to describe a 400-day year in detail. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:02, 23 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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Brilliant! Thanks for the quote. I must try and track down a copy. It sounds absolutely clear that the 400 day year is used in general. What about the principle that AM years are 800 rather than 400? Also, I don't suppose it happens to state whether the year of the Prawn is the fifth or sixth year of the Century of the Anchovy? [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 11:09, 23 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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:I don't think there's any help on the centuries, but I still maintain the century started at Hogswatch, 1989 (making it the seventeenth year). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:19, 23 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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::That’s a position I held myself until recently. Here’s where I try to persuade you out of it. In Feet of Clay, Dragon King of Arms says the following “Old Stoneface, indeed, as he was called. Commander of the City Watch in 1688. And a regicide.” Nobby later points out that it will be three hundred years since the King’s execution the following year. This implies that Feet of Clay takes place in 1987 and the ’88 century change is a natural result. However, the following line appears in Making Money “We have been badly buffeted in recent years. The Crash of '88, the Crash of '93, the Crash of '98”. This states pretty clearly that ’93 and ’98 are recent years which cannot be true if the century change takes place in ’88 (’93 and ’98 wouldn’t yet have happened). <br />
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::Taken at face value these statements seem to be mutually incompatible. However, I think there is an interpretation of the first which allows us to move Feet of Clay later. Dragon King of Arms never says that the aforementioned regicide took place in 1688, only that Vimes was Commander in that year. Given that he is talking about personal family history it is not inconceivable that he meant that Stoneface was raised to Commander in 1688 and then killed the king sometime during his tenure. <br />
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::This interpretation is useful in several areas. The century change can now be moved to its normal numerical location and Feet of Clay can take place in 1997. As a result Carpe Jugulum, The Fifth Elephant and The Truth all take place in 1999, which matches with the statement made in all three that they take place in the Century of the Fruitbat. In the ’88 interpretation, they take place in 1989 which means all three seem to be in the wrong century (or there was a mysterious extra winter in the middle of 1988). This allows Thief of Time, Night Watch and Monstrous Regiment to take place in 2000 (which has the correct millennial feel) and Going Postal, the first mention of the Century of the Anchovy, to fall in 2001. It also means that the date of Lord Winder’s fall lines up with the date given for Vetinari’s graduation (1968 given in The Truth) which matches his approximate age as described in Night Watch and means one doesn’t have to invoke further study or a time away from the Guild. Even Susan’s age works. <br />
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::To my mind when the results are so perfect, taking an unorthodox (but viable) interpretation of Dragon King of Arms comments seems a small price to pay. So, have I convinced you? [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 14:30, 26 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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:::Lobsang screwed up putting time back together again. No, seriously... Ever since the events of ToT and NW things got rather awry. Maybe all these holes are on purpose. This. Or look at the Night Kitchen. With it in existence at the time of TLC the events of the book would have never taken place, what would actually have lead to Bugarup etc not existing (long story). We could go and say Lobsang made one fatal mistake: thinking he knows better how events should have occured and how time is to be put back together again...--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 17:03, 26 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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::::I’ll happily admit that’s also a fair interpretation :-). One does wonder whether Sir Pterry has deliberately buggered things up to wind up timeline enthusiasts! However if history is that badly broken there’s almost no way of putting together a viable timeline, so I’ve tried to soldier on regardless and only invoke Lobsang’s doings when every other possible alley is closed. Other’s may differ and that’s their prerogative. [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 17:16, 26 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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::::: Here's something to ponder about: Pterry requested someone to lend a hand with tibetian several months back. Now, if that was for Snuff, couldn't it be that it was for the TimeMonks and that they are to fix what was messed up? After all, they had to repair those...forgot the name, the things they control time with. And there are six years between NW and Snuff. What if they only now finished? And therefore only now can set things straight again? Maybe they aren't happy with Lobsang's idea of events should have occured, but were bound to it...for a time...--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 17:44, 26 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
:I remain unconvinced (as a big fan of Brother Thomas of Ockham). 1993 may have happened, but 1998 is a problem; I also suspect The Author of serial bloody-mindedness. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 23:51, 26 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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:: Any suggestions on solving the '98 problem? I'd be equally happy with a way of keeping the 1688 reference and explaining away the '98 one. Although that would still leave some work to be done on the positioning of CJ, tFE and tT with respect to the Century of the Fruitbat. As an Ockham's razor fan I'd recommend you check out Crabtree's Bludgeon - a philosophical principle that's especially useful for this sort of game. [[User:LordJuss|LordJuss]] 10:28, 29 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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::: How's bout this: Rememeber the sorting machine in the post office? The one that gave out letters not yet written? What if it produced letters or possible newspapers from a different timeline mentioning the crash of '98?--[[User:LilMaibe|LilMaibe]] 17:04, 29 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
:Crabtree also states the obvious, but less usefully. Certainly the bludgeon has been swung around here plenty. Re {{CJ}} and {{TFE}}, ''CJ'' states that it's the end of the C. of the Fruitbat and I don't agree with [[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]]'s spreading out the events there just because he felt they were too closely-spaced. They ''are'' too closely-spaced, but you can't ignore the evidence. On the other hand, how can you get from {{J}} in 1988 to {{CJ}} in 2000? As for 1998, what if V. were just projecting and suggesting that these might go on and on? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:38, 30 September 2011 (CEST)<br />
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== Eve/Day of Small Gods ==<br />
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I think the Day of Small Gods is not the same as the Eve of Small Gods (what is suggested). It would be logical if the eve was the day before the Day of Small Gods. --[[User:Pkap90|Pkap90]] 04:16, 29 July 2012 (CEST)<br />
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==People's Ages==<br />
On another track entirely: Discworld characters routinely start their careers at age sixteen. If their years have four hundred days, however, this is equivalent to about seventeen and a half or near eighteen Roundworld years. This goes some way toward explaining the maturity of juvenile characters from [[Carrot Ironfoundersson]] to [[Tiffany Aching]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:21, 9 September 2013 (GMT)<br />
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== Variances with the MUD ==<br />
In researching this calendar, I came across the realtime implementation at the [https://discworld.starturtle.net/lpc/playing/documentation.c?path=/concepts/calendar Discworld MUD]. I'm curious about several variances from the specification here:<br />
* Their common year begins with Offle and ends with Ick.<br />
* Their "UC" year is 800 days long with Prime and Secundus cycles.<br />
* Their week begins with Monday and ends with Octeday. (Order not given here so I am assuming a traditional Sunday start.)<br />
Are these blatant errors or mere differences of interpretation? --[[User:Jvraines|Jvraines]] ([[User talk:Jvraines|talk]]) 15:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:{{TCDA}} shows months and weeks beginning with Octeday and ending Sunday; I don't know if there's a real canonical source. The first two sound like "blatant errors". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:03, 29 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=The_Duck_Man&diff=35197The Duck Man2024-01-27T05:38:31Z<p>Old Dickens: clean infobox</p>
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<div>{{Character Data<br />
|title= The Duck Man<br />
|photo=Blank.jpg|<br />
|name= <br />
|age= <br />
|race= human<br />
|occupation= Beggar<br />
|appearance= Wears fine (if somewhat tattered) clothing, has a duck on his head<br />
|residence= Under the [[Misbegot Bridge]]<br />
|death= <br />
|parents= <br />
|relatives= <br />
|children= <br />
|marital status= <br />
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|books= {{SM}}, {{H}}, {{TT}}<br />
|cameos= {{FOC}}, {{J}}, {{T!}}<br />
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'''The Duck Man''' is a beggar in [[Ankh-Morpork]], who unlike [[Foul Ole Ron]], talks like an intellectual. He is the most coherent of the [[Canting Crew]]; he can estimate how much food can be bought with a certain amount of money. It is possible that someone who sits down blindfolded with the Duck Man at the same table can carry out a normal conversation on a non-personal and non-controversial topic without finding out that the Duck Man is a beggar (no longer in the [[Beggars' Guild]]) who is considered insane.<br />
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The reason that the Duck Man is called the Duck Man, and considered insane, is that there is forever a duck sitting on top of his head, though he insists that there is not. Other small clues such as that he cannot recall his past will not be observed except in an extensive conversation. Confused memories of a time before he became the Duck Man occasionally arise, but are soon disregarded. The Duck Man is quite happy as he is.<br />
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For unknown reasons the [[Assassins' Guild]] has a substantial price on his head, although he is probably safe as few assassins would want to be recorded as assassinating a beggar.<br />
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[[Category:Discworld characters|Duck Man, The]]<br />
[[Category:Human characters|Duck Man, The]]<br />
[[de:Entenmann]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Sal_Lifton&diff=35193Sal Lifton2024-01-26T22:02:13Z<p>Old Dickens: she says "skelington"</p>
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<div>Sal Lifton is the little girl of about seven, in {{RM}}, who leaves [[Bill Door]] concerned that [[Death]]'s ability to hide his true nature from the human race is rapidly failing. She is the only child of the couple who run the local village pub.<br />
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Sal sees a seven-foot tall skeleton (''skelington'', to her) where everyone else, including her parents, sees long thin Good Old Bill. She is told off for her insolence, and sent to bed loudly wailing "but it's true!"<br />
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When the pub catches fire, and Bill Door's desire to help outweighs Death's indifference to something that catches up with every human sooner or later, Bill rescues her from the flames before the boiling brandy explodes. He then gives her his lifetimer to keep her alive, thus hastening his meeting with the [[New Death]].<br />
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[[Category:Discworld characters]]<br />
[[Category:Human characters]]<br />
[[de:Sal Lifton]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35190User:Old Dickens2024-01-25T05:39:17Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div><br />
==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
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There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
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Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
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==Bridge==<br />
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{{wp|Peter Schickele|Peter Schickele}} died. Another brick out of the wall. <br />
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'''б'''раво україно!<br />
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==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Untied_Alchemists&diff=35189Untied Alchemists2024-01-21T05:42:09Z<p>Old Dickens: de-stub</p>
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<div>The Untied Alchemists were a Clicks-making company, one of several competing [[Movie Studios]] operating out of [[Holy Wood]].<br />
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[[Category: Discworld characters]]<br />
[[Category: Groups]]<br />
[[Category: Discworld concepts]].</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Daft_Wullie&diff=35188Daft Wullie2024-01-21T03:55:35Z<p>Old Dickens: sp</p>
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<div>Not the most intelligent of [[Pictsies]], '''Daft Wullie''' is nonetheless one of [[Chalk Hill Clan]]'s best thieves, although every mission he been in charge of has been a failure. Often making suggestions like "Can we swim there?" after another has said it's too far to walk, he hasn't many good ideas, but is always trying to contribute, and 'show willin.' He was in charge of the raiding party that needed turpentine, sheep's wool and Jolly Sailor tobacco. He is a brother of [[Rob Anybody]], who often tells Wullie when he has said something foolish. On one occasion, Rob went a little too far in belittling Daft Wullie's intelligence: and when Wullie protested, Rob actually apologised - by saying that contrary to his previous statement, Daft Wullie <i>does</i> have the brains of a beetle, "an' I'll fight any scunner who says different!" In [[Wintersmith]], Wullie adopts [[Horace the Cheese]], the sentient Lancre Blue cheese that was previously something like a pet of Tiffany's.<br />
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==Daft Wullie: annotation==<br />
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In {{wp|George MacDonald Fraser|George MacDonald Fraser}}'s autobiographical stories about his time as an officer in the Gordon Highlanders (ie, real-life Feegles in Highland army uniforms) there is a character called "Daft Bob" by his fellows. Bob is a Glaswegian, but so amazingly soft in the heid that he fervently supports neither Celtic nor Rangers but the lowly Glasgow side Partick Thistle. (the parallel is coming from Liverpool and wearing the tangerine scarf of Tranmere Rovers, or residing in Manchester and spurning United or City for Stockport County). Bob also correctly divines that his brand-new commanding officer has, in his first three days with the Regiment, fallen foul of the byzantine rules of the Officers' Mess and ended up on a charge. As well as being daft enough to notice what should not be his concern, he then sets McDonald-Fraser right with well-meant good advice, a thing a private soldier should not normally do to his officer. Hence "Daft Bob" - for either not knowing or not especially caring what the rules are, he just ''is'', and regularly proceeds to say what he's thinking, however daft or ill-advised it is. It is clear that Bob is a khaki ''idiot savant'', a trait he shares with the Feegle Daft Wullie. <br />
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There is also a "Wee Wullie", a giant of a man and when sober, a good soldier, but when drunk, capable of such acts as declaring war on the entire United States Marine Corps - and winning. In thirty years' service he has managed promotion to the rank of Private. <br />
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[[Rob Anybody]]'s alter-ego in the Highlanders is most probably the dapper barrack-room lawyer Private Fletcher, who serves much the same function for Daft Bob as Rob does to Daft Wullie. (Book: '''The General Danced At Dawn''', Pan paperbacks)<br />
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The whole exchange between Daft Wullie and Rob Anybody, over whether Wullie does or does not have the brains of a beetle, is a long-term running gag that Pratchett himself has used at least once before - in an argument between Esme Weatherwax and Gytha Ogg over whether the latter does or doesn't have the morals of a cat. Similar arguments have been used in political debate as well - most recently in the British House of Commons, Labour MP Dennis Skinner describing half the Conservative Party as crooks, and when called to apologise, he said "I withdraw my statement. Half of the Conservative Party are not crooks". Skinner himself would have known of, and was providing his own variation on, a similar story which is attributed (unproven) to, among others, Benjamin Disraeli: describing half of the Cabinet as asses, and when asked to apologise, stating that half of the Cabinet are not asses. (It is not clear whether the party he was referring to was his opponents, or indeed his own.)<br />
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[[de:Doofer Wullie]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Sandra_Battye&diff=35187Talk:Sandra Battye2024-01-19T05:11:52Z<p>Old Dickens: Mrs?</p>
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<div>I noticed when she founded her own guild in [https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5016509/1/The-New-Guild fan fiction], but when did she become "Mrs" canonically? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:11, 19 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Sandra_Battye&diff=35186Sandra Battye2024-01-19T04:51:22Z<p>Old Dickens: can't find "earnt" anywhere</p>
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<div>{{Character Data<br />
|title= Sandra Battye<br />
|photo=Blank.jpg|<br />
|name= <br />
|age= when first encountered, early twenties<br />
|race= human<br />
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|occupation= a real Seamstress and victim of frequent humorous misunderstandings<br />
|appearance= five feet two of pure bantam defiance clutching a large wickerwork sewing basket<br />
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|residence= Ankh-Morpork<br />
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|death= <br />
|parents= <br />
|relatives= <br />
|children= <br />
|marital status= when first encountered, single. In the "present day" she is "Mrs"<br />
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|books= {{NW}}<br />
|cameos=<br />
}}<br />
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A real seamstress.(i.e., one who not only owns a needle but knows how to use it. She is also mushroom-literate.) She appears in {{NW}}, where her specialist skills bring in more money than is earned by her flatmate [[Rosemary Palm]]. She ''much'' prefers to be described, occupationally speaking, as a "needlewoman". <br />
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But wherever there are men who are away from the regular society of women, who get.... you know... ''urges'' of the sort which only a woman possessed of a range of specifically female skills can satisfy, Sandra Battye will not be short of a living. For men with the urge and the powerful longing, say for a shirt with all its buttons on, or socks with working heels and no holes in the toes, it can be just as confusing and unhelpful to look for a seamstress and, well, be directed to the wrong sort. As [[John Lawn|Dr. Mossy Lawn]] once remarked, some people who are looking for a massage really DO only want a massage. Or in this instance, a shirt with all the buttons in the right places. <br />
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In these instances, Sandra has a working understanding with the [[Seamstresses' Guild|Seamstresses]] that they will send the victims of misunderstanding down the street to the ''correct'' sort of Seamstress, according to stated need and purpose. In fact, Sandra often ends up earning more money doing proper needlework, much to Rosie's chagrin.<br />
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Thirty years on in the "present", she and Rosie Palm are still friends, and leave an egg in the graveyard of Small Gods every 25th May, as some things have to be remembered while the lilac is in bloom.<br />
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Sandra is still based on [[Treacle Mine Road]] and advertises simply for ''repairs and darning''.<br />
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Another named Real Seamstress in the canon is Mrs [[Hotbed]].<br />
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[[Category:Discworld characters|Battye, Sandra]]<br />
[[Category:Human characters|Battye, Sandra]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Treem&diff=35185Treem2024-01-19T04:38:39Z<p>Old Dickens: de-stub</p>
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<div>A cleric who earned the informal nickname Bishop "Deathwish" Treem of [[Omnia]].</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Book:Going_Postal&diff=35184Talk:Book:Going Postal2024-01-15T01:45:22Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div>Yet another case of TP being ahead of his time: BS Johnson and Reacher Gilt in the REAL Royal Post Office. [https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-reports/justice-lost-in-the-post I hope the assassin's guild is sent after these administrators]<br />
:Unfortunately the very long link doesn't work and it's too many characters for me to guess the problem. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
Grrr. Sorry, folks. Thanks for letting me know, Old Dickens. I've edited the link above, and checked it - it seems to work. Please let me know! TL:DR - the post office bought some financial management software in the late 90s, it was known to be unreliable and wrong, yet administrators convinced themselves the software had exposed all sorts of fraud by local postmasters. Who were then put in jail or ruined financially, despite having done nothing wrong except anger an algorithm. And administrators pushed on for decades, regardless of The Truth, though that's a different book. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Ah. I suspected that was what it was about. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Book:Going_Postal&diff=35183Talk:Book:Going Postal2024-01-15T01:42:21Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div>Yet another case of TP being ahead of his time: BS Johnson and Reacher Gilt in the REAL Royal Post Office. [https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-reports/justice-lost-in-the-post I hope the assassin's guild is sent after these administrators]<br />
:Unfortunately the very long link doesn't work and it's too many characters for me to guess the problem. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::Grrr. Sorry, folks. Thanks for letting me know, Old Dickens. I've edited the link above, and checked it - it seems to work. Please let me know! TL:DR - the post office bought some financial management software in the late 90s, it was known to be unreliable and wrong, yet administrators convinced themselves the software had exposed all sorts of fraud by local postmasters. Who were then put in jail or ruined financially, despite having done nothing wrong except anger an algorithm. And administrators pushed on for decades, regardless of The Truth, though that's a different book. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
:Ah. I suspected that was what it was about. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Book:Going_Postal&diff=35179Talk:Book:Going Postal2024-01-13T22:45:48Z<p>Old Dickens: whoops again</p>
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<div>Yet another case of TP being ahead of his time: BS Johnson and Reacher Gilt in the REAL Royal Post Office. [https://link.mail.beehiiv.com/ss/c/mcrwkDRDFW-hybc4hr0s0ji4YnP7PG8tIVyAAqYZYDViQNNPcIdfjNW4JMBlvpKaygrdtO9nPAcFoVZ8a3zVIqkwDEiiaLZHojv3Ok2QR_u5g-H2pJq5CmYo6P3Hhv-RyaTFDKv3DuzYIB5xVebw0HwsO10FU7nW8WOyJcJhgDBXqcr1sufZr0aUySllHyhnpGlnbvNL6otWfYHb1G59_JAGtWAJ I hope the Assassins Guild is sent after some of these administrators].<br />
:Unfortunately the very long link doesn't work and it's too many characters for me to guess the problem. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Tag&diff=35178User talk:Tag2024-01-13T22:35:41Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div>Hello<br />
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While I enjoy adding some annotations (usually after checking the lspace website), my experience of the Discworld is through audio-books and therefore I don't have any page numbers. I hope this is not too inconvenient.<br />
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And while I have your attention - Has anyone considered adding 'Annotations' to the main menu? They are difficult to find if you don't know that they are there.<br />
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:Hello, Tag! The annotations, especially to later books that aren't covered in the APF, are one of the more useful features of this wiki. I think it'd be fine to add a link from the main page. The organization of the annotations does need work - sometimes they're in a separate page, sometimes they're on the main book page. (And some annotations are, well, more likely than others. But that's a separate issue. :-) ) I suspect you'd get support from contributors if you carefully reorganized and linked these... Thanks! And good to e-meet you. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 19:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)<br />
::There's already an Annotations portal on the Main Page. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Catbury&diff=35168Talk:Catbury2024-01-11T04:47:49Z<p>Old Dickens: Created page with "==What Giants?== "It is possible that the street, Nine-Beans Row may preserve the memory of another flawed experiment involving a cow, a stupid kid, exchange of said cow for nine magic beans" and a resultant trans-dimensional beanstalk offering a gateway to a world populated by unwelcome giants."<BR> ...Possible? maybe, likely? no. The reference to Yeats is pretty clear in Mystick Alley. --~~~~"</p>
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<div>==What Giants?==<br />
"It is possible that the street, [[Mystick Alley|Nine-Beans Row]] may preserve the memory of another flawed experiment involving a cow, a stupid kid, exchange of said cow for nine magic beans" and a resultant trans-dimensional beanstalk offering a gateway to a world populated by unwelcome giants."<BR><br />
...Possible? maybe, likely? no. The reference to Yeats is pretty clear in [[Mystick Alley]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Category:Rumoured_Books&diff=35161Category:Rumoured Books2024-01-04T05:46:37Z<p>Old Dickens: consistent spelynge</p>
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<div>Manuscripts which were mentioned as being in progress,, or rumoured to be, in Terry Pratchett's last years.</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Category:Rumoured_Books&diff=35160Category:Rumoured Books2024-01-04T03:57:39Z<p>Old Dickens: caption</p>
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<div>Manuscripts which were mentioned as being in progress,, or rumored to be, in Terry Pratchett's last years.</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35155User:Old Dickens2024-01-01T06:02:12Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div><br />
==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
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There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
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Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
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==Bridge==<br />
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'''б'''раво україно!<br />
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==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Piecemaker&diff=35152Piecemaker2023-12-28T03:50:30Z<p>Old Dickens: Remove reverse annotation suggestion. Sharpe and Harper appeared in 1981.</p>
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<div>There is a tradition, right across the Multiverse, of macho law-enforcers toting ridiculously heavy sidearms, which surely represent overkill for normal policing duties. Dirty Harry had his .44 Magnum; [[Detritus]] carries a siege weapon with a two thousand pound draw.<br />
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As Detritus considers this a waste of energy if all the energy devoted to drawing back and cocking the string is only expended on a single arrow (which from a human point of view is a six-foot lance), he has adapted it still further, so that it shoots a bundle of twenty or so arrows bound together around a central core. Due to the violent force acting on them, the arrows tend to disintegrate into a cloud of supersonic (a significant fraction of local lightspeed) shrapnel which bursts into flame from air friction. The resulting fireball scythes everything in its path totally clean. Hence the name. It not only opens front doors, but frequently creates a back door as well.<br />
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Especially as Detritus' first reaction on picking the Piecemaker up from the city armoury was to ask "Which bit am der safety catch?", [[Samuel Vimes]] has effectively forbidden him from firing it anywhere within [[Ankh-Morpork|the City]]. But anyone he points it at, in the normal course of policing, doesn't need to know that. Especially with Detritus' haziness about the nature of safety catches and the tortured noise as of metal under great stress that the loaded weapon emits... well, accidents can happen.<br />
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Detritus had his chance to see what it could do when fired in anger during the showdown with the [[Überwald]]ean [[Werewolves]] in {{T5E}}. The first shot not only shatters the doors into pieces, but it takes a substantial part of the castle frontage along with them. The ''second'' shot, fired in more haste, creates even more structural damage and leaves [[Serafine von Überwald]] with not only the werewolves' plot in ruins, but their castle requiring extensive rebuilding.<br />
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===Piecemaker Mark IX===<br />
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The '''Burleigh & Stronginthearm Piecemaker Mark IX''' appears in {{SN}}, as used by [[Willikins]]. It appears to be a small, foldable crossbow that makes no noise when shot, and can be easily concealed within a pocket. Only three of these were ever produced, due to being deemed so dangerous, two of which are kept under wizard-assisted lock and key in the [[Burleigh & Stronginthearm]] vaults. The third one was kept in a secure vault in the cellar of the [[Ramkin Residence|Ramkin residence]] on [[Scoone Avenue]], and it is this one that Willikins seemed to have obtained.<br />
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The penalty for being caught carrying one of these in [[Ankh-Morpork]] is to be hanged, unless said person is caught by a member of the [[Assassins' Guild]], in which case (the Guild have implied) hanging would seem like a walk in the park. The reason Wilikins has escaped this fate? Well, for one thing, even his already deemed unkillable master, Samuel Vimes, is afraid of him.<br />
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==Annotations==<br />
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The [[Roundworld]] reference is to the Colt [[wikipedia:Colt_Single_Action_Army_handgun|'''Peacemaker''']] .45 revolver, a staple weapon of law enforcers and criminals alike in the American Wild West and - similarly to Detritus' weapon - made and kept the peace by making it impossible for the other side to continue being aggressive, which is difficult to do when you're dead.<br />
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'''Other policemen in fiction with unfeasibly large weapons:''' <br />
* "Dirty" Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) in ''Dirty Harry'' wields the Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum revolver, a weapon somewhat overpowered for police work and better suited for hunting large animals, like five hundred pound grizzly bears.<br />
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* Legendary US Marshal Wyatt Earp supposedly (in fictional accounts) carried a "Buntline Special," a Colt .45 Peacemaker with a 12- or 16-inch barrel. <br />
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* Macho cop Lieutenant "Sledge" Hammer, toting his trusty "amigo" in a TV series that was effectively ''Dirty Harry'' played for laughs.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledge_Hammer] Hammer, when faced with a random rooftop sniper, once decided the Amigo was not nearly enough, and got an anti-tank missile from the boot of his car, succeeding in demolishing the entire seven-storey building. Watch it here: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSr_3E7VWmo|I_Think_I_Got_Him]<br />
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* In the TV series ''Wanted: Dead or Alive'', bounty-hunter Josh Randall (Steve McQueen) carries the "Mare's Leg," a Winchester rifle cut down into an oversized pistol.<br />
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* In Tom Sharpe's stories about the amoral, corrupt, criminally inefficient and cretinously led South African police force of apartheid days ("'''Indecent Exposure'''" and "'''Riotous Assembly'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sharpe][http://jim-on-the-web.com/en/timeoff/books/sharpe-riotousassembly.html]"), the worst constable in Sed Effrrika, Constable Els, who is a sort of Afrikaaner Nobby Nobbs stripped of all redeeming virtue, totes a mighty four-barreled hunting rifle used originally to down a charging rhino, with truly spectacular effect.<br />
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* In Bernard Cornwell's ''Sharpe'' tales, about a proto-commando in the Napoleonic Wars, the huge and hulking Sergeant Harper totes a fearsome seven-barreled musket, originally designed for close-quarter naval use with the express intention of bringing down a battleship's mainmast and rigging. This failed as a naval weapon because sailors tend to be smaller and wirier men whose talents lie elsewhere. Besides, to fire a weapon like this from the deck of a rolling and pitching ship could be... something of an own goal. But the huge Harper, who has a suspiciously Detritus-to-Vimes relationship with Captain Sharpe, takes to it like a troll to a siege weapon.<br />
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* [http://destroyermen.wikia.com/wiki/Dennis_Silva Dennis Sylva] of Taylor Anderson's Destroyermen series carries a rifle made from a 25mm (1 inch) anti-aircraft gun; he has affectionately dubbed this the "Doom Whopper."<br />
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[[Category:Devices]]<br />
[[Category:Weapons]]<br />
[[de:Friedensstifter]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Discworld_%26_Pratchett_Wiki:Mended_Drum&diff=35149Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum2023-12-26T03:34:33Z<p>Old Dickens: sidebar again</p>
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<div>&nbsp;'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''<br />
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<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions. <br />
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Archives<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]] <br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]] <br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]<br />
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==Well, that hurts==<br />
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])<br />
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
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==New staff==<br />
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators:<BR><br />
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and<BR><br />
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<BR><br />
And belatedly, having opened his email:<BR><br />
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.<br />
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
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::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==<br />
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'')<BR><br />
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space.<BR><br />
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Down time==<br />
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Those missing facilities==<br />
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==CQ Vade Mecum==<br />
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.<br />
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better<br />
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Page count==<br />
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports:<BR><br />
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." <BR>It gives the error code <br />
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Rejects==<br />
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Test==<br />
Editing appears to work.<br />
: Does editing still work?<br />
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))<br />
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Server Move==<br />
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Everything okay?==<br />
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC) <br />
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]<br />
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back?<BR><br />
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Annotations (again)==<br />
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<BR>Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
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Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.<br />
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:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==...and then==<br />
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?<br />
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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== Repeated annotations ==<br />
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
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==Re-hash==<br />
''Recalled from the archives:''<BR><br />
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:<br />
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i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;<br />
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ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.<br />
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iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.<br />
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iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.<br />
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v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.<br />
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vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.<br />
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vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.<br />
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--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)<br />
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Some guidelines for annotators?<br />
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Useful annotations:<BR><br />
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).<br />
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Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.<br />
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Useless annotations:<br />
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The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich.<BR><br />
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.)<BR><br />
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?<br />
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--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)<br />
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Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.” <br />
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!<br />
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.<br />
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
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==That was interesting==<br />
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
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==AI content and fan project promotion==<br />
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
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::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR><br />
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.<br />
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::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile><br />
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==Atom==<br />
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=User:Old_Dickens&diff=35144User:Old Dickens2023-12-23T05:27:33Z<p>Old Dickens: Season's Greetings</p>
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==Verse==<br />
'''W'''hat if the stories were true? What if there really were [[Vampires]] and [[Werewolves]] and [[Wizards]] and [[Witches]] who really could turn you into a toad, or make you think they had? Suppose [[Samuel Vimes|Nick]] and [[Sybil Ramkin|Nora]] {{wp|Nick_and_Nora_Charles|Charles}} were the most powerful couple in the country...<br />
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There is a story that the world is a disc borne on the backs of [[World Elephant|four elephants]] which stand on the carapace of an enormous [[Great A'Tuin|turtle]]. In one corner of the Multiverse (the one farthest from ''Reality'') this, too, is true. This is where the [[Narrative Causality|story]] creates the history and a one-in-a-million chance turns up nine times out of ten and the ocean falls into space around the [[rim]] without depleting itself. On the [[Discworld (world)|Discworld]], "what if?" must be answered, the stories lived, the myth made real.<br />
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Tales from this remote universe arrived regularly via [[Inspiration Particles|inspiration particles]] intercepting the particularly receptive and talented brain of [[Terry Pratchett|Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE]]. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to sort, file and illuminate the elements of these chronicles in this little corner of the vast library of [[L-space]]. Just don't forget your ball of string.<br />
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==Bridge==<br />
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[[File:GuestofH.jpg|thumb|left|I know, it's only once a year, but there's something about this collar just gives me the willies...]]<br />
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'''HAPPY HOGSWATCH AND WHATEVER ELSE YOU CELEBRATE IN THE LONGEST NIGHTS'''<br />
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . '''''and gods bless us every one.'''''<br />
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'''б'''раво україно!<br />
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==Chorus==<br />
'''I''' sometimes sit and laugh giddily at the mere existence of some Pratchett characters (Carrot Ironfoundersson, say) and the reality he creates out of the absurd stereotype. This is often toward the end of the bottle of wine, but still, it suggests how he's different from other writers I have followed. There are now more than twelve hundred [[:Category:Discworld characters|Discworld characters]] described here, and that's not all.<br />
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Made a sysop for the many good contributions --[[User:Sanity|Sanity]] 01:34, 19 August 2006 (CEST)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=35141Main Page2023-12-22T05:06:18Z<p>Old Dickens: remove link to long-deceased page counter</p>
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===Recent news about Terry===<br />
;Thursday, December 14th, 2023: After [https://x.com/goodomensprime/status/1735298598894436405?s=46&t=qZWvb2BDsjbvYIoWy2hk3w Amazon released a ''Good Omens'' song list containing a clue], Good Omens HQ officially announce that a third and final season of {{GOTV}} has been confirmed. ([https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/good-omens-season-3-renewed-final-season-amazon-1235837682/ ''Variety''])<br />
<br />
;Thursday, December 14th, 2023: The Pratchett Estate [https://x.com/pratchettonline/status/1735268536346407220?s=46&t=qZWvb2BDsjbvYIoWy2hk3w announce via a cover reveal] that a new edition of {{TLH}} with a cover design by Leo Nicholls matching the [[50 Years of Terry]] Penguin editions will be published on 29th February 2024, completing the set of Discworld novels in this edition. This edition will also have a “new text design”, suggesting the book will have new layout and typesetting - previously too expensive an endeavour given the way the original was created. ([https://www.gollancz.co.uk/titles/terry-pratchett/the-last-hero/9781399611206/ Gollancz website])<br />
<br />
;Friday, November 24th, 2023: On social media (including [https://x.com/PratchettOnline/status/1727976194354651253?s=20 Twitter (X)]), the Pratchett Estate marks the fortieth anniversary of {{COM}} and teased the start of a “Year of Discworld” in celebration, promising “more on that soon...” ([https://terrypratchett.com/discworld/40-years-of-discworld-magic/ terrypratchett.com])<br />
<br />
===Significant Pratchett Events===<br />
;Tuesday, April 28th, 2020: Narrativia announces an exclusive deal with Motive Pictures and Endeavour Content to produce "definitive" and "absolutely faithful" Discworld adaptations for the screen. No specific productions are announced. The full text of the announcement is available on the [https://www.narrativia.com/discworld.html Narrativia web site].<br />
<br />
;Saturday, September 16th, 2017: Opening of the [[Terry Pratchett HisWorld Exhibition]] at the Salisbury Museum, Wiltshire. [http://www.pratchetthisworld.com/?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email&iid=6ceb3655f9a94b5487a1455ca5733642&uid=267767096&nid=244+272699400 HisWorld Website] [http://www.salisburymuseum.org.uk/ Salisbury Museum Website]<br />
<br />
;Wednesday, August 30th, 2017: In accordance with his final wishes Sir Terry Pratchett's unfinished novels are destroyed using a steamroller. [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/aug/30/terry-pratchett-unfinished-novels-destroyed-streamroller News Article]<br />
<br />
;Saturday, February 11th, 2017: The BBC broadcasts the biographical documentary ''[[TV and Film:Terry Pratchett: Back in Black|Terry Pratchett: Back in Black]]''. (Non-UK viewers may be able to watch it '''''[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpdh-vKTz4 here]]''''')<br />
<br />
;Thursday, August 27th, 2015: Publication of the final Discworld novel, {{TSC}}.<br />
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;Thursday, March 12th, 2015: Sir Terry Pratchett died at home in Wiltshire following a long battle with Alzheimer's. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31858156 BBC report, 3:26pm GMT]<br />
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===[[Featured Article]]===<br />
''Please, help to maintain the excellent standard of the articles in this wiki.''<br />
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'''Alphabetical list of [[List of Pratchett characters|characters]] in the works of Terry Pratchett'''<br />
When including characters, please also add them to the ''Pratchett characters'' category.<br />
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This popular page is fourth in views after the Main Page but it has not been updated regularly.<br />
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===Latest and Upcoming Publications by or about Terry Pratchett===<br />
;29 February 2024: Publication of new paperback edition of {{TLH}} from Gollancz, matching the [[50 Years of Terry]] Penguin editions.<br />
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;7 December 2023: Publication of new paperback editions of {{WFM}}, {{HFOS}}, {{W}}, {{ISWM}} and {{TSC}}, the final books released as part of [[50 Years of Terry]].<br />
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;9 November 2023: Publication of {{TAG}} by [[Rhianna Pratchett]] and [[Gabrielle Kent]], illustrated by [[Paul Kidby]], celebrating the 20th anniversary of [[Tiffany Aching]].<br />
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;5 October 2023: Publication of {{SP}}, a collection of previously uncollected “lost” early stories written by Pratchett for newspapers under pseudonyms.<br />
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;28 July 2023: Season two of {{GOTV}} premieres on Amazon Prime Video.<br />
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;15 June 2023: Publication of new audiobook editions of {{WFM}}, {{HFOS}}, {{W}}, {{ISWM}} and {{TSC}} as part of [[50 Years of Terry]].<br />
<br />
;25 May 2023: Publication of new audiobook and paperback editions of {{G!G!}}, {{MAA}}, {{FOC}}, {{J}}, {{TFE}}, {{NW}}, {{T!}} and {{SN}} as part of [[50 Years of Terry]].<br />
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;18 May 2023: Publication of new audiobook and paperback edition of {{MP}} as part of [[50 Years of Terry]].<br />
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[[de:Hauptseite]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Granny_Weatherwax&diff=35130Talk:Granny Weatherwax2023-12-21T18:04:22Z<p>Old Dickens: /* Neil Gaiman and Granny's alternate ending */</p>
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<div>Is her name spelled "Esmerelda" with an "e" or "Esmeralda" with an "a"? I've always thought it's an "a". I haven't checked thoroughly but so far the references that I have found are:<br />
*"Esmerelder Weatherwaxe (Mss) Wytch" in her signature on letter to the UU, in ''Equal Rites''. Note "e" and "er" ending on the first name, and extra "e" at end of surname. Of course, we know that spelling is not her best subject.<br />
*"Esmerelda" with an "e" in ''The Discworld Companion''.<br />
*"Esmerelda" with an "e" for the baby princess's name, in the naming ceremony, in ''Carpe Jugulum''.--[[User:Vsl|Vsl]] 22:20, 8 January 2006 (CET)<br />
:I just checked all the books, it's allways Esmer'''e'''lda. --[[User:Death|Death]] 09:05, 9 January 2006 (CET)<br />
::BTW: The German translations are all '''a''' but Magrats daughter is '''e'''... --[[User:Death|Death]] 09:18, 9 January 2006 (CET)<br />
:Amen.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:16, 18 March 2007 (CET)<br />
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Shouldn't this page be called "Esmerelda Weatherwax" rather than "Granny Weatherwax"? Practically, everyone else (Nanny is another noteable exception) seems to be paged by name (where known) rather than title or prefix (Ronald Rust, rather than Lord Rust; Symbil Ramkin, rather than Lady Ramkin; and so on). --[[User:DJones|DJones]] 14:00, 18 March 2007 (CET)<br />
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:For consistency. of course, but I'm ambivalent. Some of the given names used are so obscure that few would know where to find them. Other deviations: Mrs. Evadne Cake, Bursar, "Bloody Stupid" Johnson, St. Ungulant.<br />
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:Redirects always seem to be necessary whatever you do. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 15:16, 18 March 2007 (CET)<br />
<br />
== What about her HAIR? ==<br />
<br />
-The burning question here is still: What color is Granny's hair?<br />
It was "silver" in ER, later black, and also blondish in her youth,<br />
I believe, which is how she's drawn by Paul Kidby.(Suggestions that<br />
she colors it will not be entertained.)<br />
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:It's grey in ''Maskerade.''--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 02:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Age? ==<br />
<br />
Do we have a clue as to Granny's age? I've always assumed that she was in her 60s since anything over 40 would have been considered old in rural communities a couple of hundred years ago, but the L-space timeline puts her in her 70s. Can anyone point out where it's stated that she's older than [[Mustrum Ridcully]]? since with the events of {{WS}} moving Lacre forward 15 years, shouldn't this make her younger than him? --[[User:Megahurts|Megahurts]] 12:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I will generally take [[User:DaibhidC|DaibhidC]]'s opinion, but I don't know how they decided she was older than Ridcully in [http://www.lspace.org/books/timeline/dw-timeline-thoughts.html#granny-meets-ridcully|"timeline thoughts"]. It would be only slightly in any case. She should now be physically nearly 15 years younger, which would account for the difference between 45 years and sixty years that's mentioned. (Daibhid and esmi neglect the timeslip in their discussion.) Then she would only be in her late fifties: I might like to push her fling with Ridcully back a little earlier than 1936. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 14:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
:Based on statements in {{SM}}, Ridcully would have been born earlier than the DWTL has it: in 1914 or 15, and so his meeting with Granny, if he was 18, in 1932 or 33.--[[User:Solicitr|Solicitr]] 13:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Appearance in Going Postal? ==<br />
<br />
The comment about granny appearing in gp appear to be very speculative. <br />
Surly others could be reasonbly accused?<br />
Sure Granny may not be the best on a broom but don't others also struggle?<br />
--[[User:BOZZ|BOZZ]] 14:32, 1 November 2010 (CET)<br />
<br />
It is mentioned that she says that "they move them (the clacks towers) around." in {{SOD2}}. I believe that it is the same but this is only speculation. I'll find the page number soon.--Confusion 03:30, 28 October 2011 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==The book maskerade is not shown in books ! ! ! == <br />
(unsigned comment by 184.76.242.37, 15 Dec 2010)<br />
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It used to be, but then [[User:217.155.192.180|217.155.192.180]] removed the exclamation marks while making some other mess. Then [[User:99.241.98.144|99.241.98.144]] deleted the damaged template instead of repairing it. Then [[User:184.76.242.37|184.76.242.37]] added some discussion as a header to the article. Wheeee!!! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:09, 16 December 2010 (CET)<br />
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== ==<br />
The many edits of 27 Apr don't seem to be any improvement. Any defense? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] 00:23, 28 April 2011 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== {{HFOS}} ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't this be a full appearance, not a cameo? --Confusion 19:13, 24 November 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Everywhere==<br />
<br />
Found this from the [[Borrowing]] entry in [[Book:Turtle Recall|Turtle Recall]]:<br />
<br />
'A built in danger is that a witch, by accident or design, will become so immersed in the mind of the 'borrowed' creature that she will not return. Indeed, it has sometimes been suggested that witches never die - they merely don't come back.'<br />
<br />
I think this could shed some light on the event's of {{TSC}} such as the comment made at the end of the novel and [[Death]]'s 'flickering candle' analogy. This would also be relevant to the apparently present powers of [[Sarah Aching|Granny Aching]] on the chalk, but in this case for [[Lancre]]. --[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] 13:32, 16 September 2015<br />
<br />
== Definitely everywhere ==<br />
<br />
Odd fact: there are real people out here called Weatherwax. The Hollywood animal trainer who was responsible for Lassie The Wonder dog was called ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudd_Weatherwax| Rudd Weatherwax'']]. Was this at the back of Terry's head when inventing [[Gaspode]] for {{MP}}? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:17, 21 December 2016 (UTC)<br />
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== Neil Gaiman and Granny's alternate ending ==<br />
I see Guybrush did some excellent copyediting on this page. He took out the mention of what Gaiman contends Pratchett intended as Granny's final scene. I'm of two minds here. On one hand, I think a link to that interview with a brief summary is important - Gaiman is as reliable a source about TP's intent as can exist; I would never have found out about this leg of the Discworld Trousers of Time if I hadn't seen the note here. That said, I can see the argument that whatever The Author might have *intended*, Gaiman's report is non-canonical - the scene is not in the text, so it doesn't belong on Granny's page. If that's the argument for removing the note, I agree... but I'd like to see this note replaced somewhere. (Perhaps this talk page? Is there another spot on this wiki?) What do youall think?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 15:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I don't see where he took it out; it's under "Trivia". I assumed on first reading that Granny would "borrow" You. It seemed obvious, but not to the committee that finished the book. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:03, 21 December 2023 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Discworld_%26_Pratchett_Wiki:Mended_Drum&diff=35126Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum2023-12-21T02:30:24Z<p>Old Dickens: sorting colons</p>
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<div>&nbsp;'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''<br />
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<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions. <br />
<br />
Archives<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]<br />
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]<br />
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*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]] <br />
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*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]<br />
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==Well, that hurts==<br />
Changing the backend of architecture had a hiccup and I had to restore from my previous backup. We've all new changes since the 23rd :( --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Back up again faster than expected; now about the previous problem... Is there yet hope of recovering the Discworld & Terry Pratchett namespace (or the missing images)? I have the Mended Drum archives, but I don't know what's to be done with the rest of the missing pieces. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I restored the Mended Drum archives. What other pages are you looking for? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:The portals on the Main Page, mainly (the About page doesn't even have the link now); there may be more I haven't seen yet. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
::I think everything is back. At least all of the ones I can find in the database are restored. Can you give me an example page with a missing image? I'll tackle those next. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
:Yay! (I wonder how you did that.) Missing image in [[Chidder]], e,g. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC) The File List suggests that all images between Aug, 2006 and the Long Drive may be missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]])<br />
::Sent you an email --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==New staff==<br />
After a long period of inadequate supervision, the wiki is pleased to announce the appointment of new administrators:<BR><br />
[[User:Jagra|Jagra]] as Head Librarian and<BR><br />
[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Rabbi Moishe Rosenbaum]] as Spiritual Adviser . [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<BR><br />
And belatedly, having opened his email:<BR><br />
[[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] representing the underside of the Disc.<br />
:Much appreciated! I'll huddle up with [[Mightily Oats|Pastor Oats]]. Thanks, Old Dickens and Osiris! [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Thanks very much; and a position that no ones going to try to assassinate me over. Ook. [[User:Jagra|Jagra]] ([[User talk:Jagra|talk]]) 22:20, 24 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, you know what they say about "running on Fourecksian time"... Thanks folks. Nice to be on the team. - [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Discussion of respect for peripheral creations==<br />
(''moved from [[Talk:Jocasta Wiggs]].'')<BR><br />
Gee I hate ''The Watch''! Does it deserve references here beyond its own page acknowledging its existence? It has almost nothing to do with the works of Terry Pratchett. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I mean, it's a related work and people are going to want to know more about it; I don't like the idea of trying to put everything relevant on that one page. And if someone wants to know more about the character in the show, who gets a lot more screen time than the book version, this felt like the right place for a little paragraph. But if the consensus is it's not wanted here, fair enough and I'll stop adding info about it. I'll note it's not universally hated, though, despite its faults. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 03:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
OK, two opinions. Is anyone invoking Terry's name entitled to advertising here? Where's the limit? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I haven't seen the show, and I don't intend to - not after I saw what the young (my age!) Ms. Pratchett had to say about it on twitter a long while ago. But, that said... it's not a pirated fanfic, it's a legit derivative work that, as Guybrush says, people may come to this site for info about. As long as anything about it is clearly marked as from the show, or "non canonical", or something like that - as long as we're not representing ''The Watch'' as an actual Terry Pratchett creation - I'm okay with it getting coverage. Though my heart agrees with Old Dickens. And someone please correct me if I'm wrong about anything here. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 05:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Terry's name appears in the titles, Rob is still credited as a producer and the Narrativia logo appears at the end, which for me is qualification enough; and no other adaptation has been different enough to require additional information like this (except maybe the TV version of {{GO}}). But it's true that the important difference between {{TW}} and other adaptations is that the official Pratchett team are clearly unhappy with the result, and that they didn't have the equivalent of the veto power Terry had on all projects while he was alive. I also understand why people don't like it, even if I did (if with plenty of reservations). I want to document it somewhere - not least for fans who want to know more about it without watching it - but to avoid contention, perhaps we should just confine it to the specific article. I can find somewhere else for the greater detail. (As it happens, [https://guild.pratchatpodcast.com I have a whole separate wiki I've been working on], on which I've already set up interwiki to L-Space.) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
You may be right. I started here arguing against content restrictions since we don't take up any weight or shelf space.<BR><br />
What, then, might be reasonable limits to inclusion or linking in the wiki? So far, I and contemporaries have treated spam pretty ruthlessly because it was obvious. What credit do we give a book/story/movie/tvseries/game/... that has only a nominal connection to Terry Pratchett? We already treat [[Discworld Noir]] as if it were canon, so it's muddy. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 4 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:This discussion is getting big enough that we should shift it to the Drum, since it's no longer just about {{TW}}, but what our policy is on inclusion of stuff in general. My two cents though is that anything officially licensed should definitely be included, and that unambiguously includes both {{TW}} and ''[[Discworld Noir]]'', even though neither was written by Terry himself. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
I think the difference is that Discworld Noir does not get equal billing in an article if it uses a canonical name. What do we do with fanfic versions and creations? I still prefer separation of peripherals. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
We used to have a page for administrative discussion, but Osiris never liked the idea. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:18, 5 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Down time==<br />
And...we're back. They blowed that cable up real good. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Railroad company doing maintenance didn't check for existing lines and dragged it's feet taking responsibility and allowing access for repairs. 1100 Tuesday to 0200 Friday complete outage. Then I had to update the DNS back to normal and wait for propagation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:59, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::Woo-hoo! Thanks, Osiris. For all I understand about such things, you might as well have said "a witch flew into a tower." Glad we are up and running again! :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
::::Yeah, he often talks IT to me. I just smile and nod. He's a sort of Ponder Stibbons among us old-fashioned wizards. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
:::As someone who did understand all of those words...thanks for getting it sorted, Osiris! ;) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Those missing facilities==<br />
Is the loss of hit counters, PopularPages and such interesting utilities due to practical or philosophical reasons? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==CQ Vade Mecum==<br />
French site ''Vade Mecum'' has been hijacked and the link leads to a load of malevolent crap.<br />
Their Facebook page remains and doesn't mention the problem. It wants someone with better<br />
French than mine to ask them. -- [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Page count==<br />
Trying to do a count of total pages (the page counter having been broken for some years), I find that Special:AllPages reports:<BR><br />
"A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software." <BR>It gives the error code <br />
[71b51ca94cd2a7996b274243] 2022-05-12 04:37:07: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Rejects==<br />
I'm glad "TilanissaWildhawk" and "Argent Stallion" are just spammers. They sound problematic as real contributors. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Test==<br />
Editing appears to work.<br />
: Does editing still work?<br />
I dunno; ISP has been down all day all over the country. (Seems to work [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC))<br />
:This is me. Testing editing after applying the upgrade... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Server Move==<br />
Editing may be a bit slow for a while. I had to move to a slower system to perform some maintenance on the old server. I'll move it back as soon as i can. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Moved DB to Amazon RDS so we'll see how fast it goes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Not that fast at the moment. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Everything okay?==<br />
Site's been offline for a day or two, by my reckoning; just moving back to the old server, or something else? (PS - I've been bit quiet, but I'm still around!) -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC) <br />
:Back for a while, but not on the real server, apparently; still at dial-up speed. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Back on dedicated hardware. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
[[Category:Wiki Data|Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum]]<br />
:Back at warp speed already! Nice work, Scotty! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:'''Special pages''' is not back, however. [7f0d5fb90f244811375db569] 2022-08-03 20:03:27: Fatal exception of type "TypeError" [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I complained before about the loss of some features of Special Pages, but I wonder if we can get along without the whole set. Are they coming back?<BR><br />
:(I can search out individual pages if I can remember the Speling, and Categories are available from the Main page, but the list was more convenient. If the list must go the link should be removed from the sidebar.) [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Annotations (again)==<br />
Soliciting opinions of administrators and all users on the admissibility and editing of annotations; does the old consensus hold? Does anyone's opinion qualify as an Annotation? See [[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum#Annotations]]. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I think some editorial control would be appropriate, at least in the form of some basic standards. We're the successor of the APF, and that was compiled intentionally, rather than including every comment made by fans on the group. I agree with Moishe that "this reminds me of this other thing" isn't sufficient. As a baseline, specific similarities should be cited, and where possible evidence for a link. If there is none, then that should be clear by using language like "might be a reference to" - there are some long bow comments in some annotations which are written as if they are fact. And I am also okay with old annotations being edited where appropriate, too. Part of agreeing to contribute to a wiki is understanding what you write is not permanent and may be changed by others over time. Disagreements can be hashed out on Discussion pages if need be. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 11:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
::Well said, Guybrush. Successor to the APF - large boots to fill! You're right that we need to aspire to that level, even if we don't reach it all the time.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
With all due respect to Leo and Mike, I had hoped for more than a collection of annotations. If, on the other hand, we were going to be a continuation of the APF, annotations would need to be filed in the annotation pages with original edition page numbers. Nobody does that. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<BR>Moishe said: "Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out." I guess that depends on your idea of less-specific but I'd prefer we tried to refine the gold and dump the muck. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Well, I do put annotations in that way - and I'm willing to go through and move them to separate pages, with page numbers, for the books at least. (Page numbers don't have to be from the original editions (the later paperbacks are far more common these days, after all), as long as the edition is noted.) For other kinds of articles, a separate annotations section at the bottom is fine, but should be cleaned up wherever possible. We aren't just annotations, of course - I also think our role is to be a source of "who is that again?" kind of information that the Discworld Companions are actually really bad for, as they are all jokes and no actual context - but we're also not the only Discworld-themed wiki. I'm keen for us to differentiate ourselves and not end up a dumping ground for everything like some of them are; the Fandom one, for example, has huge slabs of the APF next to stuff from this wiki and other stuff that's just nonsense, with no differentiation or proper organisation. So I also definitely agree we should dump the muck and refine the gold! -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 02:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Bonzer! Death to graffiti artists! We have been something of a dumping ground for any crackpot opinion since the consensus of ten years ago that "my uninformed and illogical opinion is as good as yours". My ideal would be no annotations in factual pages, but if we can edit them and cull the worst it's a useful compromise. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:I'm 100% on board with "edit them and cull the worst". Here we *go*. (And good luck to your respective foot-the-ball teams today and tomorrow!)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 18:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
No such luck. Moishe/Osiris 5, Guybrush 6, Old Dickens X. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)<br />
:After watching the first games, I would've wagered on Old Dickens over any of the rest of us. Your team looked great. Alphonso Davies is a beast.<br />
<br />
:Now, in the 2023 Women's world cup, USA/Canada/Australia sound like three favorites. DYK I have a Haley Raso jersey?[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==...and then==<br />
Here's a challenge for the new consensus on annotations. See [[Moules]]. Here is a looong annotation based only on a similar made-up word, but it's amusing. There's nothing wrong with it in itself and I'd say it was positive contribution, but it does over-balance the main article. Opinions?<br />
:I mean, I'm happy to move this to the talk page. It's certainly interesting, and it adds background that I wasn't aware of, since I'm American and younger than TP. Yet, I agree this is more an interesting side note rather than an annotation. Are others okay if I move it to talk? [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
That could be done...I asked because I was torn myself. I have been more interested in getting the utter nonsense out than the merely peripheral. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:Yeah, I agree - we don't need to be ruthless! I'd probably edit something like that shorter if possible, or perhaps in this case add a bit more detail to the main article, but we don't need to remove something interesting as long as its clear and doesn't detract from the utility of the article. Having it in a separate section helps there, too. I don't know if moving it to the talk page is best, though - a lot of users will never think to look there. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Repeated annotations ==<br />
One benefit to having annotations in articles about things and people is that when they crop up in multiple books we can easily do a "see [[Piecemaker]]" (for example); as it is now, many annotation pages include annotations for things already annotated elsewhere, and not always in agreement. (The {{T!}} annotation for the piecemaker said it was a reference to a bomber plane, with the gun mentioned as a "maybe".) I'd be keen to replace a lot of those with a wiki-link, or at least to edit down to a short version with a link to the detail. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 09:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
:No argument from me. I've seen a few that are about the same concept, but phrased completely differently on the book's annotation page and on the page for the concept itself. Not the end of the world, of course, but where you see these, I'd say, change it - I'll do the same![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Re-hash==<br />
''Recalled from the archives:''<BR><br />
I'd suggest that for an annotation to count as such, it has to satisfy several criteria:<br />
<br />
i) The argument is as watertight, logical and succinct as possible;<br />
<br />
ii)The mistake is avoided of attributing specific status to a generic observation. To explain, the anthropomorphic personification of Death is a universal concept which has been around, in the "modern" form of scythe-carrying animated skeleton, since mediaeval times. A lot of people have used this image - Pratchett is only a contemporary user, and not the latest. There is a discussion on the "Reverse Annotations" talk page as to why the makers of the animation Family Guy may' have been influenced by the Discworld in their interpretation of the Death character, and why the makers of The Simpsons almost certainly haven't. In principle, just because other people use the Death icon does not imply they've borrowed it from Terry - as he himself said we're all fishing from the same stream.<br />
<br />
iii) The onus is always on the Annotator to explain exactly why they think their insight qualifies as an Annotation. As the maths exam says - explain your workings.<br />
<br />
iv) An Annotation you have to explain with a convoluted thousand-word essay almost certainly isn't. In this case it's likely to be the author's own wishful thinking. the best and most certain ones are short, pithy and tie exactly between the Annotation and the idea or concept it showcases.<br />
<br />
v) The more points of association you see between the text and an external idea or quality, the more likely it is to be an Annotation. For instance, the shout-outs to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice to be seen in the pages of Snuff. Everything fits; nothing is problematic or wishful thinking. Conversely, just because two words used in a character name or description also appear in a Beatles song title, it doesn't necessarily mean this is intentional. Lucy Tockley was not in the habit of spacing herself out on hard drugs, for instance, and almost nothing in the song lyrics is reflected in the events of Lords and Ladies. The association is tempting, but ultimately only superficial. Soul Music aside, look more deeply into the lyrics of songs, not just the titles, to check as certainly as you can as to whether TP is really referencing them. Avoid superficiality.<br />
<br />
vi) It helps to know a little about Terry: for instance, his favourite novelists: it isn't then a long jump from George Wambaugh (police procedurals and cops-as-buddies novels) to the City Watch. Nor from George McDonald-Fraser (war stories involving unruly Scottish soldiers) to the NacMacFeegle. We also know his favourite rock/pop/folk music includes They Might Be Giants, the Blue Öyster Cult and Steeleye Span, all bands referenced freely in the books to date. He is also fond of bad puns and absurd humour.<br />
<br />
vii) Terry has a serious side. His thoughts on assisted death - and the dignity of life - are well known. Sometimes an annotation might be there to point the thoughtful in a given direction. He's good at multi-level puns, that is, condensing the maximum of information into the least possible words. Look out for this too, but this is necessary more speculative. For instance, a very minor character yet to get even a speaking part - although the context suggests with a very marked and unique accent - is Miss Smith-Rhodes, teacher at the Assassins' School. In one name, Terry has condensed a hundred years of political history in Southern Africa, and this screams out that this name did not happen by accident: Cecil Rhodes created a country called Rhodesia. Ian Smith was its last white ruler, in the tradition of Rhodes, fighting a bitter civil war before having to concede defeat and hand it over to black majority rule and Robert Mugabe's tender care. These two names condense the rise and fall of white empire in Africa into two words - very economical shorthand. Maybe he has a sketched-out plot for a lost colony in Howondaland? And in the context of academia, a Rhodes Scholar is a gifted student from the white British Empire who gets to study for free, and with a grant, at Oxford or Cambridge.... for this number of referents to come together in a single character strongly suggests something is going on here. These things are certainly worth noting.<br />
<br />
--AgProv 03:42, 28 November 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
:Oh, ay. Should be printed on the Main Page, but, the Devil being in the details, how to enforce it? AgProv has contributed lots of useful and entertaining annotations, generally admitting it, at least, if they become imaginative. We might even be able to agree on what's "watertight and logical", but others won't. I spent last year campaigning against vacuous annotations and graffiti in general but the consensus seemed to be that anyone had the right to free expression here, short of spam. (Meanwhile, why is this meta discussion in Lucy Tockley's page? I'm moving a copy over to the Mended Drum.) --Old Dickens 00:44, 29 November 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
Some guidelines for annotators?<br />
<br />
Useful annotations:<BR><br />
Explaining the more obscure bits of British institutions, geography, pop culture, etc. to the rest of us. British movies, rock and roll and some tv shows will be known internationally: not so much comic strips, radio personalities, the Football League and cricket or the British Post Office. This may occasionally work in reverse for Fourecksian or Genuan trivia, Seattle or the environs of Power Cable, Neb. (See SiD's note on Integrated Mail Processors (Going Postal/Annotations). That's interesting (and still in the Annotations page).<br />
<br />
Explaining details that might not be known outside your area of special interest (except by a researcher of TP's experience). Math and physics to the journalists, say, or German philosophers to the more technical.<br />
<br />
Useless annotations:<br />
<br />
The Bleeding Obvious. Please, you can't read Pratchett if you're thicker than a Troll sandwich.<BR><br />
Explaining the Jokes, unless there's a real chance they depend on a useful annotation above.(Even then, a joke explained tends to be a joke spoiled.)<BR><br />
What You Think The Author Was Thinking. If you were as smart as he is you wouldn't be working for free here, would you?<br />
<br />
--Old Dickens 03:29, 15 December 2011 (CET)<br />
<br />
Opinions? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 06:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree with nearly all of this, though the bit about “useless annotations” needs to take into account that Pratchett’s readers in 2023 don’t have the same cultural context as those at the time of publication. What was "bleeding obvious" in 1983, 1996 or even 2015 may not be so for new readers now - and indeed, wasn’t for all readers then! We don’t know who is reading an annotation, beyond that they are interested in Pratchett’s work. So I think annotations should be written in plain language and explain themselves clearly, with a minimum of assumptions. They should convey everything you need to understand the basic reference, then link to sources that explain further so they don’t get too long. (e.g. it’s enough to explain that the band We’re Certainly Dwarfs is a reference to one of Pratchett’s favourite “nerd rock” bands, [[wikipedia:They Might Be Giants|They Might Be Giants]]; see also [[Foul Ole Ron]] and the origins of “Bugrit millennium hand and shrimp”.) So I guess I’d add “Annotations should be complete.” <br />
:I also think some jokes might need explaining now, if the cultural references they rely on are now more obscure than at the time of writing. And I say this as a sometimes professional comedian and comedy writer who hates doing that!<br />
:I’d prefer we didn't use language describing folks as stupid for not getting things. Pratchett has a broad appeal, and he read and researched widely; ''no-one'' gets every joke and reference.<br />
:Finally, when it comes to reverse annotations, I think they ought to have a much higher bar to clear: unless they’re unambiguous or there’s clear evidence, we have no idea if other creators have even read Pratchett, let alone are really referencing his work. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 05:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
As a North American, I didn't get all the jokes in many of my first Pratchett books either, but the bleeding obvious needs moderation before the article/annotation becomes condescending. I'd admit that there needs to be consideration of the generation gap. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==That was interesting==<br />
Hey, we've moved behind the scenes again. Sorry for the downtime. My home internet company decided to remove my static IP so back to the cloud we go. It was a pain to get working again. Let me know if you find anything broken. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 03:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Bugger. Are they worse than my IP? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==AI content and fan project promotion==<br />
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR><br />
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.'' I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Pack_Up_Your_Troubles_in_Your_Old_Kit_Bag&diff=35123Pack Up Your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag2023-12-20T02:21:16Z<p>Old Dickens: maybe not "morals"</p>
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<div>'''Pack Up Your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag''' is a song sung by [[Percy Blakeney]] to a group of Trolls (who he thought were Russians) after he accidentally stepped to [[Long Earth|another earth]]. The Trolls seem to enjoy it.<br />
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==Annotation==<br />
Pack Up Your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag was an actual song thought was known by the slightly longer title of 'Pack Up Your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag and, Smile, Smile, Smile.' The song was immensely popular during WW1 and was credited with boosting morale within the British troops. The full lyrics can be found [http://www.firstworldwar.com/audio/packupyourtroubles.htm here]<br />
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[[Category:The Long Earth]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Nanny_Ogg&diff=35122Nanny Ogg2023-12-20T02:09:32Z<p>Old Dickens: books</p>
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<div>{{Character Data<br />
|title= Nanny Ogg<br />
|photo=nannymine.jpg|Nanny Ogg by [[user: darkplush|Kit Cox]]<br />
|name= Gytha Ogg<br />
|age= 70+<br />
|race= Human<br />
|occupation= [[Witches|Witch]]<br />
|appearance= Short, dumpy, face like a friendly raisin.<br />
|residence= Tír Nani Ogg, The Square, [[Lancre Town]], [[Lancre]]<br />
|death= <br />
|parents= <br />
|relatives= sister, [[Beryl Ogg]]<br />
|children= [[Jason Ogg|Jason]], Grame, Tracie, [[Shirl Ogg|Shirl]], Daff, Dreen, [[Nev Ogg|Nev]], Trev, Kev, Wane, Sharleen, Darron, Karen, [[Reet]] and [[Shawn Ogg|Shawn]]<br />
|marital status= Widow (Albert Ogg, Winston Ogg and [[Sobriety Ogg]])<br />
|books= {{WS}}<br/>{{WA}}<br/>{{LL}}<br/>{{M!!!}}<br/>{{CJ}}<br/>{{NOC}}<BR>''[[Short Story:The Sea and Little Fishes|The Sea and Little Fishes]]''<br/>{{W}}<br/>{{ISWM}}<br/>{{TSC}}<br/>{{TAG}}<br />
|cameos= {{TOT}}<br/>{{WFM}}<br />
}}<br />
'''Gytha "Nanny" Ogg''' is a [[witches magic|witch]] from the [[Ramtops|Ramtop Mountains]], [[Granny Weatherwax]]'s oldest and perhaps only friend, sometime conscience and reality-check. As skilled a witch as Granny, but in other ways, able to manipulate events and people (even Granny) by being herself &ndash; ''in capital letters'' &ndash; fond of a dram, or three; fond of a lad, or three; she is Granny's connection to a different world.<br />
<br />
She lives in [[Lancre town]] and is the matriarch of a very big family. Two of her sons live in cottages on either side of her house, and when she needs either of them she only has to bang on the wall. It is said that housework to Nanny is something that happens to other people; Nanny stopped doing housework once her eldest daughter was old enough to hold a duster. Nowadays, Nanny's daughters-in-law come in to do her household chores; she bosses them rather nastily, and the trait is considered to be the only unpleasant thing about Nanny. While she knows every detail of the lives of all her grand- and great-grand-children and most of the rest of Lancre and their ancestors, she can never recall the name of a daughter-in-law.<br />
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Among Nanny's special talents are the ability to get along in any foreign language immediately by turning it into a pidgin that gets the message across, and a knack for producing a reasonable tune from any instrument she picks up. Her singing voice, when echoed by a half filled bathtub, causes birds to fall from the sky and goat milk to turn into yoghurt while still in the goat. Needless to say, the neighbors panic when they hear her drawing a bath. One of her favorite songs is [[Hedgehog song|The Hedgehog Can Never be Buggered at All]], whose lyrics probably shouldn't be proclaimed so loudly in public places. More importantly, she has been selected by [[Time|those]] who should know as the greatest midwife in history, and her command of practical magic is probably second only to Esmerelda Weatherwax's. Nanny Ogg's version of [[scumble]] (distilled, rather than frozen) is widely famous. It's made from apples, ''well, mostly apples''; the mystery ingredients seem to give it power beyond mere alcohol. She must be deemed to be an irrepressible cook, and is the author of [[The_Joye_of_Snacks|The Joye of Snacks]] and the inspiration for <br />
[[Book:Nanny_Ogg's_Cookbook|Nanny Ogg's Cookbook]].<br />
<br />
Nanny Ogg has a helmet of white hair like a very solid thatch. It is also said that there were [[dwarfs]] in the Ogg ancestry. In any case, the result is that it is difficult to knock Nanny out by hitting her on the head, an option not often contemplated but attempted at least once (see ''[[Book:Maskerade|Maskerade]]'') - even having a house drop on her head has not knocked her out (see ''[[Book:Witches Abroad|Witches Abroad'']]). She also has one single tooth left - Nanny eating a pickled onion with gusto is a sight not soon to be forgotten. <br />
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It has been mentioned (especially by Granny Weatherwax) that in her youth, Nanny had an enthusiastic appreciation for the company of men. In [[The Art of Discworld]], it was also revealed that in her youth, she had dated [[Leonard da Quirm]], resulting in his painting ''[[Mona Ogg]]''.<br />
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In {{CJ}} Nanny states, while talking with [[Agnes Nitt|Agnes]] that, like Perdita, she's always been that part of her that wants to (metaphorically or no) strip her clothes off and run naked in the rain.<br />
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Nanny says that the key is to remember where you left your clothes.<br />
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==Related Oggs==<br />
*Notable children of Nanny Ogg:<br />
** [[Jason Ogg]]<br />
** [[Wayne Ogg]]<br />
** [[Darren Ogg]]<br />
** [[Nev Ogg]]<br />
** [[Shawn Ogg]]<br />
** [[Shirl Ogg]]<br />
<br />
*Notable grandchildren of Nanny Ogg:<br />
** [[Pewsey Ogg]]<br />
** [[Shane Ogg]]<br />
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==Misc==<br />
* Nanny Ogg appeared on [http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/wiltshire/hi/people_and_places/arts_and_culture/newsid_9327000/9327675.stm Royal Mail stamps in 2011], and [https://terrypratchett.com/discworld/royal-mail-40th-anniversary-discworld-stamps/ again in 2023] for the fortieth anniversary of Discworld.<br />
<br />
==Character Annotations==<br />
* Unlike the names "Weatherwax", "Device" and "Garlick", the name Ogg came... from a [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.pratchett/msg/196e9c94edfbb4af phonebook].<br />
* The name '''Gytha''' was inspired by [http://www.brighthelm.org/people/gytha Gytha North], a British fantasy fan and acquaintance of Terry's, whose love of music, and involvement in the {{wp|Filk music|filk music scene}} was probably the inspiration for Nanny's penchant for singing.<br />
* Nanny's house's name, ''Tir Nanny Ogg''.... in Irish Gaelic mythology, ''Tír na nÓg'' is the Island of the Blessèd (the literal translation of the Gaelic 'Tír na nÓg' is 'Land of the Young'), the Celtic heaven set in the far West, beneath the setting sun. No doubt Heaven for Nanny, but Purgatory for the daughters-in-law... It is also the Land of the Ever-Young perhaps fitting with Nanny Ogg's desire to never act her age.<br />
* The ancient Irish language Ogham appears in Discworld as ''Oggham''. In {{LL}}, Nanny Ogg claims her ancestors invented the Oggham language, although she might have been having one over on [[Casanunda]]; however, she ''is'' able to translate the Oggham above the door to the [[King of the Elves|Elf King's]] realm as [[The Long Man|"I've got a great big tonker."]]<br />
* She is also a computer program: see [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg here]]. The makers of the software deny it is anything to do with her - although a later development was called [[Vorbis]]. Hmmm.<br />
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==Also See==<br />
* [[wikipedia:Nanny Ogg|Nanny Ogg]] at [[wikipedia:Wikipedia|Wikipedia]]<br />
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{{DEFAULTSORT:Ogg, Nanny}}<br />
[[Category:Discworld characters]]<br />
[[Category:Leading characters]]<br />
[[Category:Serial characters]]<br />
[[Category:Human characters]]<br />
[[Category:Witches]]<br />
[[de:Gytha Ogg]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Owlswick_Jenkins&diff=35111Owlswick Jenkins2023-12-19T06:03:33Z<p>Old Dickens: clean infobox</p>
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<div>{{Character Data<br />
|title= Owlswick Jenkins<br />
|photo=Blank.jpg| <br />
|name= Owlswick Jenkins<br />
|age= <br />
|race= Human<br />
<br />
|occupation= Artist / forger<br />
|appearance= Wispy beard<br />
<br />
|residence= [[Short Alley]]<br />
<br />
|death= Possibly died, possibly working for [[Vetinari]].<br />
|parents= <br />
|relatives= <br />
|children= <br />
|marital status= <br />
<br />
|books= {{MM}}<br />
|cameos=<br />
}}<br />
<br />
A brilliant and precise artist, '''Owlswick Jenkins''' was arrested for forgery of stamps. He appears not entirely sane, but this helps him be extremely good at his work. He was saved from the gallows by [[Moist von Lipwig]] to work on the new [[Paper Money]] under the name of Owlswick Clamp. During which time an [[igor]] replaced his mind with the mind of a turnip until Moist forced him to change it back.<br />
<br />
Owlswick lived and worked in [[Short Alley]] until his capture and then employment at the [[Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork]]. <br />
<br />
Currently, he is officially missing-presumed-dead but it is hinted that an angel came for him and he's probably happily alive and working for [[Vetinari]] in a similar situation to [[Leonard of Quirm]].<br />
<br />
The new name proposed for Owlswick, Exorbit, seems to suggest the xor bit-wise operation used in computer programming to test for certain conditions. Sir Terry worked for a while with a Sinclair computer in the early ‘80s to control devices about the house, an application where he might well have used the xor command. One can’t help wondering…<br />
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[[Category:Discworld characters|Jenkins, Owlswick]]<br />
[[Category:Human characters|Jenkins, Owlswick]]<br />
[[Category:Making Money]]<br />
[[de:Eulrich Janken]]</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Scoone_Avenue&diff=35110Talk:Scoone Avenue2023-12-19T05:54:36Z<p>Old Dickens: sic a soss</p>
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<div>Well my old Granny (frae Perrrth, nearby) pronounced it "Scon", although she wasn't very posh. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:42, 14 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
:It definitely sounds like more of an accent thing than a social status thing. Actually what it sounds like is someone attempting to sound posh and high class and failing miserably.--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 07:27, 14 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
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No, it's just how the town and the stone (pronounced "stane") thereof are pronounced locally. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:24, 14 January 2013 (GMT)<BR><br />
No, it's gotten very confused; the town is pronounced "Scoon"; I don't know how baked goods got in here, that's another whole north-south debate. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Scoone_Avenue&diff=35098Talk:Scoone Avenue2023-12-18T05:24:29Z<p>Old Dickens: pronunciation</p>
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<div>Well my old Granny (frae Perrrth, nearby) pronounced it "Scon", although she wasn't very posh. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:42, 14 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
:It definitely sounds like more of an accent thing than a social status thing. Actually what it sounds like is someone attempting to sound posh and high class and failing miserably.--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 07:27, 14 January 2013 (GMT)<br />
<br />
No, it's just how the town and the stone (pronounced "stane") thereof are pronounced locally. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:24, 14 January 2013 (GMT)</div>Old Dickenshttp://wiki.lspace.org/index.php?title=Talk:Tiffany_Aching&diff=35097Talk:Tiffany Aching2023-12-18T03:55:51Z<p>Old Dickens: </p>
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<div>Re - Note: All Tiffany's adventures seem to have a connection to winter...<br />
<br />
The old Kelda said to Tiffany in Wee Free Men, "You see and hear what others canna', the world opens up its secrets to ye, but ye're always like the person at the party with the wee drink in the corner who cannae join in. There's a little bitty inside yer that willnae melt and flow."<br />
<br />
After the wintersmith crowned Tiffany with the crown of ice, he said to her, "Now it is done," and she replied, "There is something I have to do, too." Although what came about was what the Summer Lady brought about every year, Tiffany did it in a way that was human. Finding herself at the point of balance between frost and warmth, she remembered what the Kelda had said. "Time to thaw. She shut her eyes and kissed the wintersmith..." -- [[User:Emen|Emen]] 09:12, 31 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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I see the connection in 1-3, but how is [[Book:I Shall Wear Midnight|I Shall Wear Midnight]] related to winter? --[[User:Confusion|Confusion]] ([[User talk:Confusion|talk]]) 02:24, 16 December 2013 (GMT)<br />
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==Family==<br />
Why did Tiffany's mother never get a line or mention? She was just a daughter-in-law to Sarah? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:11, 15 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
:She's definitely in the first three books, and gets a few lines in {{WFM}} at the very least (she tells Tiffany that the teachers are in town, for example). Tiffany also mentions many things she's learned from her mother, and recalls an early memory of being held by her as she watched Granny Aching out on the Downs at night. She's not as memorably involved in Tiffany's adventures, but I think it's representative of Tiffany's closer relationship with her father and grandmother - and she is bringing up seven other children, which probably keeps her busy. Perhaps Pratchett drawing on his own father-daughter experience. -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 23:14, 16 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
Hmm. I needed a re-read, but she doesn't have a name, or enough material to warrant a page here. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:54, 16 January 2023 (UTC) <BR>It's unusual for a Witch to come from the paternal side. See E Weatherwax, M. Garlick, a long line of Oggs... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Shepherds Crown update? ==<br />
<br />
There’s not really any info in this article based on {{TSC}}. Is it time to add it? I know a lot of fans are spoilerphobic about the last novel, but it’s been eight years… — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 00:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Could use an update, yes. (I don't support spoilers or plot re-hashes; people should read the books.} --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:51, 18 December 2023 (UTC)<br />
:Correction: No, I don't consider spoilers relevant here, a few years after publication. If people haven't read the books, it's their problem, we tried. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:55, 18 December 2023 (UTC)</div>Old Dickens