Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum: Difference between revisions

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<div class="usermessage">This is the page for current discussions. Archives can be found in [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]], [[Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]] and [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]] </div>
&nbsp;'''This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).'''


I didn't get a confirmation e-mail, although I seem to have an account. Did anyone get the e-mail? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:00, 27 September 2012 (PDT)  It works now. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:50, 29 September 2012 (PDT)<BR>
<div class="quotebox">This is the page for current discussions.  
Oh wow...I just noticed that this version can display the ampersand in the title! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:32, 27 September 2012 (PDT)


Archives
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 2]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 3]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 4]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 5]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 6]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 7]]
*[[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 8]]
</div>


Spam here already! How do they even know it exists? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 09:16, 6 October 2012 (PDT)


:Funny thing I just discovered, I can prevent new users from creating new pages. They will have to wait a set number of days unless they confirm their emails. Now i just need time to implement it. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 11:03, 6 October 2012 (PDT)
==AI content and fan project promotion==
::Is it not written: "We live and learn"? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:56, 6 October 2012 (PDT)
So we have a new contributor (hello [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, [https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3162903/oath-stories-discworld/page/1 a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game ''Oath'']. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)


Strange goings-on back at the original wiki: no editing, apparently. A sign of progress, I trust. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:33, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
::Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.<br> Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble. <br> If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. [[User:DugBride|DugBride]] 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even ''Oath'', but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a [[Fandom]] page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens.  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
::I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
:I second all that, except that the '''Upload file''' page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. '''Help:editing''' is already linked from editing pages.  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)<BR>
:[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, ''but'' we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints?  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
:: Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]]'s advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --[[User:DugBride|DugBride]] ([[User talk:DugBride|talk]]) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink.  Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, ''This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.''  I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere.  People don't necessarily read rules before editing.  If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
:Have you watched ''The Holdovers''?  [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
::I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970.  Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist.  My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break.  The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help.  My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.


He backed up the site and sent it to me. He disabled edits because any new edits wouldn't get moved over to the new site --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:14, 7 October 2012 (PDT)
::Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>


...and it's driving the spammers MAAAAAD! Over 250 today and the day's not over. I don't feel up to that; I hope there's some way to purge or re-start the user list. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:42, 9 October 2012 (PDT)
==Atom==
Clicking '''Atom''' in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in [[wikipedia:Atom (web standard)|Atom format]]) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by [[mediawiki:Sidebar|editing the sidebar menu]], but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — [[User:Guybrush|Guybrush]] ([[User talk:Guybrush|talk]]) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


:I wouldn't bother, none of those new users will show up here since they're not included in the database backup that Sanity gave me. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:13, 9 October 2012 (PDT)
==Spamagain==
 
Suddenly, the SEOs are back! [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
We now have the best part of a thousand spammer accounts arranged in one long neat unbroken list. I'm wondering if there is any way of  simultaneously highlighting and deleting them all with two or three clicks of a mouse? (Select all to a certain point on the list and then hit block and delete, ideally, once each..) This would be so satisfying.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 11:12, 13 October 2012 (PDT)
 
:On this wiki a spammer has to pass two steps before they can make an edit. First they must pass the capcha, sadly some to them can do that. Second they must verify their email address, very few seem to be able to pass that second test. I wouldn't worry too much about deleting spam accounts. I plan to develop a script that will run monthly to clean them up. Basically, any user which hasn't confirmed their email after 30 days gets deleted. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 12:04, 8 November 2012 (PST)
:: Oh. It was sort of fun shooting them individually, seeing the terror in their beady little eyes... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:37, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 
:::Feel free to shoot away, just don't worry if you miss. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:39, 9 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Starting over==
The notice at the top isn't available for editing or I'd fix the spilleng; anyway, there are some more bits missing:
*discussion pages
*categories (the list is there but not the page itself, heading and comments)
*The de: links (The Czech version seems to be gone anyway)
*and especially the wiki.lspace link
Other questions:
*Will there be a custom skin, wallpaper?
*Why is my ISP address different?
If there's a chance of losing any of this material, might we know what so we could download as much as possible while it's available? I've done my own stuff and some bits of history but there are many discussion pages I'd hate to lose, back issues of the Mended Drum, etc.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:35, 15 October 2012 (PDT)
 
:I do have everything, i just need to get it working properly. RL issues have gotten in the way. I wouldn't edit this too much since I may replace quit a few pages. Also, the cabal will be updating the wiki.lspace.org link soon. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:15, 15 October 2012 (PDT)
 
::BTW The spammers can create users all day long but they cant post anything without email verification. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:06, 17 October 2012 (PDT)
 
:::So one verifies his email, WTF! --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 10:36, 18 October 2012 (PDT)
 
==Amazon Outage==
Since this website is now hosted on the Amazon Web Services cloud, any outage to Amazon will affect us. Hence the brief outage today. I don't think Amazon is back up to full capacity yet though since the server is still super slow. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:44, 22 October 2012 (PDT)
 
==Spam Accounts==
Hopefully, ReCapcha will continue to block the creation of spam accounts. It's been 15 minutes and no new accounts were created but I was able to create a test account.
 
BTW: You shouldnt see a capcha if you have an account and have confirmed your email. If ReCapcha continues to work well, I may allow anonymous edits again. Next item on the TODO list. Image files... --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2012 (PDT)
:It seems about 99% effective so far. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:09, 27 October 2012 (PDT)
 
Just a reminder, unless a spammer manages to authenticate it's email address that person cannot post. Very few of the spammers are managing to authenticate. The rest just create accounts that I delete every few months. You don't really need to delete all of them unless you really really want to. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:01, 29 January 2013 (GMT)
:There is now a list of about a thousand: the few legitimate contributors hardly matter to the total. Several have posted since the update. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:25, 29 January 2013 (GMT)
:Surely it would make sense to simply prevent spammers from creating accounts in the first place. Allowing to fill the database up with bogus accounts is counter-productive and the number of spam accounts that are created on this site each day is surprisingly high. See below re my suggestion. --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 21:46, 6 June 2013 (GMT)
 
Hi all, just thought I would mention that I was quite amazed at the number of spam accounts being created on a daily basis here. This happened to me a while back on my own wiki before I changed my methods to combat it. I currently use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ConfirmEdit ConfirmEdit] with  '''QuestyCaptcha''' to combat spam accounts etc. and since then I have not had a single spam account created! Why? Because it uses questions that you create to be used at the 'create account' stage. The account creator has to answer a question, which is random every time the page is refreshed. I have six questions on my site and one is really easy: 'what is the name of this wiki?' etc. I have five other questions relating to the subject matter of my wiki of varying levels. You can make them as easy or as difficult as you like (although I would recommend quite easy for novice readers of Discworld like myself) and this is pretty much the most effective way to combat 90-95% of spammers, especially bots who cannot understand the question option, therefore can never create a spam account.
 
Of course if a human was persistent in creating an account to post spam across this excellent site they could, especially if they are knowledgeable about Discworld, but in general people could work out the answer to a question by reading the information on this site. However, this is incredibly rare. Well, it is for my wiki anyway.
 
All you have to do is install the extension, think of a selection of questions (and include their answers) and add it to the localsetting.php file like this:
 
require_once( "$IP/extensions/ConfirmEdit/ConfirmEdit.php" );
require_once( "$IP/extensions/ConfirmEdit/QuestyCaptcha.php");
$wgCaptchaClass = 'QuestyCaptcha';
$arr = array (
        "A question?" => "An answer!",
        "What is this wiki's name?" => "$wgSitename",
        'Please write the magic secret, "passion", here:' => 'passion',
        'Type the code word, 567, here:' => '567',
        'Which animal? <img src="http://www.example.com/path/to/filename_not_including_dog.jpg" alt="" title="" />' => 'dog',
);
foreach ( $arr as $key => $value ) {
        $wgCaptchaQuestions[] = array( 'question' => $key, 'answer' => $value );
}
 
I don't even bother with recapture as it just wasn't effective against bots any more.
 
If the nice admin folk here haven't utilized it before then I would certainly recommend it. It worked for me --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 08:40, 6 June 2013 (GMT)
 
:We used '''QuestyCaptcha''' last year in the original version. It slowed them down for about two days until their program learned the answers (I assume). My original idea was to use Discworld-specific questions and change them when necessary. It was pointed out that this might exclude not only newbies, but complete strangers from some link in left field who could still make a contribution. It's all engineering...and politics.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:39, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
::What questions did you use where bots could figure out the answers? Generally speaking they are not that sophisticated. Questions shouldn't be mathematical, too simple or too complicated so I guess it is difficult to say what would be considered as decent question that both veterans and newbies alike can answer. I think the questions should be Discworld specific and worded in simple English in such a way that the answer can easily be found on this site. Changing the questions when necessary, maybe every six months, is a good idea.
::I do, however, agree with you that using this extension ''might'' exclude newbies. I look at it this way, anyone who is serious in joining and contributing to the site (which are the people you want to be attracting here anyway) will be keen enough to find the answer/s to the question/s they are posed with.
::Giving it another try has to be an improvement on the current situation, which is far from ideal. I certainly would prefer to put more time into improving a site instead of dealing with spam accounts and vandalism. --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 20:30, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
Just checking the [[Special:RecentChanges|RecentChanges]] again and the number of spam accounts being created on this site is crazy. Since last night (GMT) there have been 50 new spam accounts. How do you guys put up with this madness? I have noticed the admins spend a bit of time deleting these accounts and all this action is making the RecentChanges difficult to view. So, I checked my Watchlist and for some reason it is showing changes that shouldn't be there, see [[Watchlist issue|new section]] at bottom of page for more about this issue. --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 16:50, 10 June 2013 (GMT)
 
'''''Here's an interesting development.'''''
go to Special Pages and then to Users and Rights/Active User List. Two names are mentioned there as active users - Parent7Kettle and Taiwan5kettle. both have only one edit to their name - in both cases they vandalised the Main Page, deleting it completely and repalcing with spam. As they were still listed as "active", I attempted to merge and delete.
But in both cases it was impossible to do so. I went through the merge/delete procedure and got this error message:
 
Database error
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:
(SQL query hidden)
from within function "DatabaseBase::update". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry '0-0-Main_Page' for key 'wl_user' (127.0.0.1:3307)".
 
I am wondering if these might be the trojan hoses allowing other spammers to enter and set up fake accounts? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 09:28, 18 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Files Work Again!==
FYI: Pictures are back to working again. Also, sorry for the outages, first a slight hiccup because of a hurricane and then I got called away while in the middle of upgrading the hardware profile. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 22:09, 2 November 2012 (PDT)
 
==External Links Work Again!==
...you might boast about these things a little. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:45, 3 November 2012 (PDT)
:The link from Doubleday's Terry Pratchett site is still wrong, though. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 09:55, 10 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Moving In==
So are Talk pages going to be uploaded or are we starting anew?--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 23:25, 5 November 2012 (PST)
:Eventually, I'm having a small problem bringing up the copy of the system that Sanity gave me. That combines with real life considerations means I havent had the time to spend on it. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 10:40, 6 November 2012 (PST)
::I was just worried about what might happen if I created one and then the old one was added in later. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 14:56, 6 November 2012 (PST)
:::Keep a copy. I've made a couple of new entries, but on the basis that they might disappear. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:03, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 
The dense ''Cloud'' seems to have lifted; I've had smooth communication for a while now! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:41, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 
:I increased the size of the server and fixed an email issue. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:37, 6 November 2012 (PST)
::Excellent, I had an issue with saving edits take five minutes and then fail to save but that no longer seems to be happening. I am also really glad that we have the little signiture button on the top of the editing screen again, it is really convenient.  --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 21:52, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Hello==
I just wanted to introduce myself; I'm Joe, I was kind of active on the old wiki but since the wiki's been refreshed I'm going to try and be a lot more active! If there's anything I can do to help ten please drop me a note! --[[User:Krysophrase|Krysophrase]] ([[User talk:Krysophrase|talk]]) 03:58, 7 November 2012 (PST)
:It is good to see that people are making their way to the new wiki, also, what was your name on the old wiki?--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 07:41, 7 November 2012 (PST)
::I was called ArchchancellorJoe on the old wiki but I decided to change to my general internet name. --[[User:Krysophrase| Joe]] ([[User talk:Krysophrase|<font size="1">talk</font>]]) 05:39, 9 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Blocking IP's==
Please do not block IP addresses. This site is now behind a load balancer so the site sees everyone coming from the same IP address. The load balancer was necessary to avoid having to have the Cabal update domain records when I resize the virtual server. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:18, 18 November 2012 (PST)
 
==Quick question:==
Is anyone else having difficulty uploading files (jpeg artwork) or is it just me?
 
Also, I may be slow on the uptake here and I'm sure nothing's actually been lost, I'm sure the Main Page on the old site said we had over 3,000 articles/entries. This one tells me we only have 1,707. But nothing of primary importance seems to have been lost? (All the Discussions, yes, but rather lose those than the main entries.) Is it just a different way of counting things? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 14:36, 1 December 2012 (PST)
:I noticed that too. My thought is that it comes from losing the discussion pages and most other special pages such as the Catagory pages. Also it appears that not all pictures transferred correctly, many of the ones with symbols such as 'Ã' seem to be giving errors.--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 15:07, 1 December 2012 (PST) (Also  is anyone else unable to paste text into the editor?)
:::Yep, I get a "Fatal exception of type UploadStashFileException". I mentioned the wonky counter before. (I just pasted the error message there.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:37, 1 December 2012 (PST)
 
My recurring error message is Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/a/a3". [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 07:49, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
:Try now. I changed something and managed to upload a file. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 08:06, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
Hey, thanks! Works perfectly, although the artwork (just a bit of amusing whimsy. Is Matt Smith still around?)  came out a lot bigger than I anticipated! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:38, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
I would also like to see the [[Small Gods Question]] talk page fixed even if the other talk pages aren't. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 19:42, 1 December 2012 (PST)
 
I wasn't aware of that issue. I'll try working on it tomorrow. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:39, 1 December 2012 (PST)
 
1,524 articles today, despite having added at least twenty. Most strange! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 01:43, 8 December 2012 (PST).
:...aka the Fred Colon Memorial article counter? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 05:34, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
::How about {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}. Apparently, Sanity had this setting configured differently. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 07:27, 8 December 2012 (PST)
 
{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} now... hey, that's an interesting plug-in! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 07:47, 8 December 2012 (PST)
:It seems pretty clever; it doesn't include any redirects or other extraneous pages that I can see. It matches the count in "Oldest pages". --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:19, 12 December 2012 (PST)
::It's a kind of [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Magic] --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 21:49, 12 December 2012 (PST)
 
==Lspace Skin==
The old default skin is available in your preferences area. I haven't forced everyone over to it because it needs a few fixes in the sidebar. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 11:21, 2 December 2012 (PST)
:It only works in the preview, though; I can't save the setting. In fact, I can't save any setting. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 11:40, 2 December 2012 (PST)
::I get a message saying my changes were saved but nothing actually happens.--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 13:37, 2 December 2012 (PST)
 
==New Rant==
It seems slightly odd that absolutely no one from the foundation of the wiki remains active (except perhaps Death, who remains at the German Discwiki). OK, DaibhidC has chimed in a few times; not really active. The denizens of [[afp]] who thought it up in the first place have been conspicuously absent. The few of us on the staff now have remained since the second generation, but it seems we dwindle and rely on [[User:AgProv|AgProv]]'s input more than ever.
 
Why do we:
*not attract more useful contributors?
*not retain useful contributors (we've had many come and go)?
*not attract better illustrations, as AgProv just mentioned?
 
The current rough look and missing pieces of the wiki are another hindrance but the problem goes back years. Many of us have done good work over several years to produce a comprehensive and often amusing source of information but we seem to lack something in marketing.
 
One on my issues is that for some reason I always expect a small group of new contributors to join after Terry publishes a new book but for some reason they never materialize. Another thing is that when one searches 'Discworld wiki' we are pretty far down on the list, even lower then another wiki that has only 500 or so articles. This may be partially because of the site move but it defiantly isn't helping us. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 22:22, 14 December 2012 (PST)
 
:I don't find that problem with searches. If you Google the characters in the current 'Recent changes' this wiki comes first or second, generally. Major characters and names with other Roundworld meanings will have more competition and may push us down the list. Googling 'Discworld wiki' shows us on the first page, following only Wikipedia. This is part of why I wonder about the shortage of contributors. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 07:54, 15 December 2012 (PST)
 
::Many of the google searches I have done have shown this site to be at the top or at least near the top of each page. Wikipedia didn't even come up top when searching for 'Discworld wiki', this site did. So, I am guessing since your posting in December last year, this site's ranking has improved since then. I have moved my wiki several times and each time it took a little time to get back to the (or near) the top of google searches.
 
::Regarding the "rough look and missing pieces" hindrance, this is something I have been fighting with and have only in recent months changed the look of my wiki. I preferred the look of the Vector skin when that was released in version 1.16 but even now I find it quite dull so I slightly reinvented the Vector skin for my own needs just by changing some css. Aesthetics are very important! If people don't like the look of the site instantly for whatever reason they will not use it. This I have learned and so tried to make my wiki more inviting, which I am still working on but I'm definitely getting there. -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 07:54, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
::Regarding "why do we not attract more useful contributors", has anyone considered starting a Twitter feed or a Facebook page? I am sure you have. I don't use either as I have no use for them but millions of other people do and there must be a lot of Pratchett and Discworld fans out there using both. If you want to get a wider audience that doesn't simply reply on web searches, this might have to be the way to go. What about the Terry Pratchett website and asking for permissions to use illustrations fro there? Is anyone on their message boards spreading the word? -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 09:00, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
:The "rough look", of course, was in the early development; we have the old green skin back now and everything works except histories and foreign-language links, I think. The [http://www.terrypratchett.co.uk/ Terry Pratchett] site has fixed its link recently and I would expect that to send more visitors. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:59, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
As [[User:Zdm|Zdm]] mentioned, [[Talk:Book:Small Gods]] is one of the wiki's best efforts; how do we advertise that and reproduce it? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:39, 2 February 2013 (GMT)
 
==TODO List==
I should have some time to work on the wiki here in the next week since I'm off work. Of course, that can change at the whim of the lady and kiddo. So what's the top items you think are missing and that i need to work on? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 23:47, 22 December 2012 (PST)
:I am still unable to save any preference changes and I would like to see the [[Small Gods Question]] talk page restored. Those are the only major thing I can think of right know. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 00:05, 23 December 2012 (PST)
 
The only thing that comes to mind is (perhaps selectively) restoring the Discussion pages, if this is at all possible. [[Currency]], [[Sock Under The Mattress]], and the one about everyday economics of Ankh-Morpork, all had interesting discussions going and additional notes, as I recall. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 03:37, 23 December 2012 (PST)
*<s>ALL the discussion pages</s> (well, nearly all; a few seem to have wandered off.)
*<span style="color:red">Page histories</span>
*<span style="color:red">Other language links (de:)</span>
*<s>The Help namespace (mostly [[Help:Editing]])</s>
*<s>Whatever is wrong with the templates.</s> The templates are also mostly free from gibberish and editing themselves again, except the cover look-up from Amazon in the <span style="color:red">Book Data template</span>. It still doesn't work and leaves an unsightly swath of code across the top. I can remove that but it leaves the image off-center and the box too wide. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:00, 27 January 2013 (GMT)
*<s>User preference settings.</s>
*A minor oddity: the contributors appear in code, or just as the universal IPA in the [[Special:NewFiles|Gallery of new files]], although they're correctly identified in the individual File: pages.
And what have you done to the poor spammers, by the way? <s>There don't seem to be any legitimate sign-ups either.</s> --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 07:30, 23 December 2012 (PST)
 
Also it would nice to have the old Mended Drum archives back. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 09:32, 23 December 2012 (PST)
:I have those myself. I can put them up again if Osiris can't extract them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 10:10, 23 December 2012 (PST) They're there now. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 12:42, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
Also the getting started guide is still missing. It is the only major red-link on the main page that I can see. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 14:05, 23 December 2012 (PST)
:Also done. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 12:42, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
 
'''Merry Christmas''': Here's most of the [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php/Special:AllPages old wiki] up and running. Still no access to anything in the Book namespace though. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:15, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
 
I hadn't noticed that [[User:Death|Death]] joined us back in January (wie gehts, Jens). If there's a problem connecting the de: links he might be able to help. I'd like to lose those red links. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:21, 2 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==New element==
'''...and happy Hogswatch and Hogmanay.''' Hoo! This is getting confusing. I guess you mean there's no Book namespace in the "old wiki" (gods know why), but then in the "old wiki" there's a Talk page for "Bergholt Stuttley Johnson' but no actual page (likewise 'Broomstick'; of course it was only the Talk pages we were missing). Will it be possible to assimilate the Discussion pages into the "new wiki" or will we have to do that manually, as noticed or required? Casual viewers certainly can't be expected to find a nested "archive" wiki.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:56, 25 December 2012 (PST)<BR>
I have some archives and Talk pages copied here, but I need to know whether it would be useful to paste them up now, or would that just get in the way of a general restoration? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:30, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
:Talk pages have been imported.--[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:21, 25 December 2012 (PST)
::Very impressive. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 20:04, 25 December 2012 (PST)
:::...what he said.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 20:19, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
Go here to [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php/Special:Export export] and here to [[Special:Import|import]] --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:24, 25 December 2012 (PST)
:::Weird. Talk:Bibliography exists but Talk:Book:Title doesn't. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:08, 25 December 2012 (PST)
 
Here are the [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=100 BOOK] pages...
And the [http://wiki.lspace.org/oldwiki/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=101 BOOK TALK] pages...
--[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 07:41, 26 December 2012 (PST)
:::Things are looking up, but Discussions for {{SM}} and {{TOT}} seem to be missing (both significant, I would have thought). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 11:36, 26 December 2012 (PST)
::::Neither of those are in the database. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 07:52, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
==They're baaack!==
Speak of the devil and in crawls a spammer under just the common IP address. How did that happen? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:54, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
Reverted his vandalism but I don't seem to be able to delete the bugger - keeps going to an error page. Can you help?[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 17:01, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
You can't do anything to the spammer: it's just the common IPA that everyone converts to for reasons known only to denizens of the H.E.M. The question is how he got to edit at all without an ID. I just tried and just submitting an email address won't do it, you have to be logged in.
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:25, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
:My fault, for some reason people cant confirm email addresses at the moment so I was trying to find the cause and opened everything up for a few minutes. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:45, 27 December 2012 (PST)
::Sneaky buggers. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:05, 27 December 2012 (PST)
 
ref, user Gigano: not only the wrong language but totally irrelevant too. I ran his blathering through the Babylon translator and it comes out as ''Thanks to its type design each even smallest room in our flat may become not only interiors functional, but above all pleasant)''.I'd put it in better English if I could be bothered, but I'm not.  Can't see that as being Discworld-relevant, somehow! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 12:59, 8 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Is it just me or are account creations not showing up in the recent changes?--[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 04:26, 9 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Account creation is broken. I still haven't figured it out yet either. I manually activated TC01's account. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:23, 9 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==A toast==
At the year's end, I suggest that our little band has made it to Florida, if not the stars.<BR>
I propose a ''Brindisi'' (surely you have a glass of something handy at this time of year) to the Founders,<BR>Osiris, those who have hung in over the long drive, and all the valuable contributors over seven years.<BR>Here's to us, and the return of auld acquaintances and the arrival of article 4000.<BR>
Happy Hogswatch, Happy Hogmanay, Bonne Année, Gelukkig Nieuwjaar, l'chaim and lang may yer lum reek!<BR>
'''''Old Dickens''''' - ''Editor Quia Nemo Vult'' ... 31 Dec 2012
 
==Database Crashed==
Sorry for the outage, the db crashed when i wasnt looking. FYI: You can reach me at disc@osiris-web.com anytime to let me know of issues with the site. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 17:01, 2 January 2013 (PST)
:Yay! You probably had to go back to work today and I empathise, but spare a thought for those of us snowbound in the frozen north with nothing else to do. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:33, 2 January 2013 (PST)
 
==Crude remedy for messy templates==
Not as good as fixing the stupid template, but to remove the weird code in place of the unused "photo" field, use "Blank.jpg|". See [[Bashfull Bashfullsson]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:53, 9 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==Question re editing/previewing==
 
Hi! I've just noticed when I was setting up a new entry: I went to the Preview screen as usual to proof-read the piece and to seek to eliminate any glaring crass compositional errors, as you do. This is probably a case of All-Discworld-Slow-On-The-uptake syndrome, but I've realised the one thing you cannot preview in this screen is the Category. Therefore you can't see until you've saved the page is whether the details for Category are correct. it'sonly when it comes up as a redlink that you realise it isn't - I had a frustrating time with <<Category: Discworld Flora & Fauna>>, for instance.  I don't suppose there's any way this can be amended? Cheers. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:22, 12 January 2013 (GMT)
:Ah, the new-style preview at the top of the box, no. It doesn't allow you to carry on editing, either; I don't see the use of it. The same old preview button at the bottom beside "Save page" works the same as ever. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:39, 12 January 2013 (GMT)
 
==Back in business?==
A tentative hallelujah for new users confirmation. Who's still out there? --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:57, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
: Looks like Vandals 11, Contributors 0 so far. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:55, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
Also, I was about to delete the dead link to "Biers" in the sidebar, but I wondered if there were some reason for it. ?
 
:Turns out there was a bug in the 1.20.1 version of MediaWiki that recently got fixed in 1.20.2. So I upgraded. As for Biers, I don't care about it. Did you notice the default skin changed? And user preferences work again. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 05:51, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
::I don't care if nothing works after this, we have the old skin back and that deserves a little party. :) --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 06:37, 26 January 2013 (GMT)
 
 
==Discworld Diaries?==
Hi, I wanted to ask about the Discworld Diaries (Assassins, UU, Reformed Vampires etc)
Is the information in them considered cannon? 
 
I have several of these and they have extra information not detailed in the books, such as a Ramtop kingdom which has embraced the Way of the Cospolite (and even the Black Cult that worship her evil neighbour Mrs Golightly), they name the Vampire Count that [[Greebo]] ate as a bat, and the previous Professor of Cruel and Unusual Geography who was eaten by Thunderlizards on [[Mono Island]].
 
Let me know if you'd like any of this added,
 
regards
 
--[[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] 27 January 10:43pm GMT
 
As an example, Mr [[John Smith|John "Not-A-Vampire-At-All" Smith]] first appears in the Vampires' Diary, as does Pamela Betty von Jones: they cross over to {{T!}} as the vampire committee pressuring Vetinari and Vimes to add a vampire officer to the Watch. [[Alice Band]]'s first appearance was in the Assassins' Guild yearbook: she crosses to the opening chapters of {{NW}}.  There are so many examples of information passing over from the Yearbooks to the novels that it's a pretty safe bet to assume it can be treated as canonical!  Even more - but as I know to my cost, not ''all'' - information from the yearbooks has been copied over to the Companions.
Would you have the Assasins' Yearbook, dromandkiss? I'd love to see the incidental info in that in more detail! Cheers [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:36, 27 January 2013 (GMT)
:I think we've always assumed that anything with The Author's name on the cover is canon (note spelling), even if it might have been Stephen Briggs or others' idea; we rely on {{DC}} and {{NDC}}, we've wikified them for years. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:34, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Thanks for your response, I'll start adding information from the diaries.  The ones I have are: Unseen University, Assassins, Thieves, Post Office, Reformed Vampires & Lu Tze's book of enlightmement, but I don't have the Fool's or the Watch.  I don't know why they didn't make more of these, there were plenty of groups they could have used (Seamstresses, Beggers, Times etc) it's a pity they stopped.  Perhaps they weren't selling very well, but it's hard to get them these days, and most now sell online for more than they were worth when printed! 
Regards --[[User:Dromandkass|Dromandkass]] 29 January 2013 11:03pm GMT
 
==Picture Rules?==
 
Do we have any official rules on which pictures can be uploaded and used and which can't? (copyright, artist request, ect.) Also is there a list of artists who have allowed their pictures to be used? --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 05:13, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
 
The accepted rule on copyright is that to use a picture, it requires the explicit and preferably written permission of the artist first. I have retained emails and PM's from artists I have contacted on deviantArt and other sites so that documentary proof exists and can be cited in the event of subsequent inquiry. Most artists are absolutely pleased for their work to be used here - if you ask nicely - so long as they are credited, a link is put up to their website or dA (or similarly hosted) gallery, and of course a rider is added about it not being copied on without permission nor used for commercial gain.
 
"Public domain" images are acceptable if used and do not require permission - my adaptations of currency notes that have been reproduced here and there, for instance.
 
There is also a rule about "fair usage" - ie, if part or all of a copyright image is used in the context of an academic argument or critical discussion. For an example, refer to illustration on the [[Alice Band]] page, where "fair usage" would justifiably apply to both illustrations as they are cited to demonstrate a point about the character's origins.
 
Of course, any member of this site who posts their own artwork - Matt, puggdogg, me - has implicitly given consent by posting their own intellectual property here, although this is of course protected from copying on by the same copyright protocol!
 
And, as Old Dickens has pointed out, it is common courtesy to get the artist's name exactly right in the credit...whoops...
 
I'm not sure about the provenance or right-to-use of screen grabs from the various Discworld animations, though. I note there's a Dibbler illustration on his page that is taken direct from the animation of {{SM}}. If we can't justify "fair usage", this may need to be taken down. Votes on this? [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 08:25, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
:We've gotten along for some time using fairly small and low-res versions as have others. I'd say we continue as always and if an artist objects we'll take it down (no one ever has). They should be at less-than-photo resolution and modest size '''even as uploaded''' (the full version being available for download by anyone, not just the size in the article. Credit should always be given, of course. I think some of that is missing. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:09, 28 January 2013 (GMT)
:Is it not written: "everything works if people are reasonable"?
:I had a think about "credit should always be given". If AgProv has gone to Jennifer Babcock and been granted permission to publish her drawing, it's probably polite to credit her; people who write, though never so cleverly, don't sign their work in a wiki or get credit outside the History. Why do contributors of graphics get special consideration? Because they're scarce. We've had dozens, maybe a hundred valuable contributors of text. The list of signed-up, volunteer  contributors of useful graphic art is very short. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:36, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Quite pleased with myself... I've been schmoozing various artists I know or have encountered, and got a really nice picture for the Quoth the Raven page today. (Thanks, Jen! I know you promise yourself you'll properly start reading Pratchett one day. Given your academic speciality, I may send you a thank-you copy of {{P}} c/o your university. You'll either love it or hate it. I'm guessing "love."). with a bit of luck, there will be more guest artists on the way, one or two of whom may even sign up and contribute. you never know...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:14, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
:Carry on, you silver-tongued devil! --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:36, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
 
Another issue comes up with [http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/File:Dave.jpg this] picture is that it is no a screenshot of the movie, it is a picture of a prop from the movie, with no photographer credit given. How do we deal with situations where we don't know who took/created the picture? Also there are some other pictures from [http://www.paulkidby.com/news/july2010.html here] that I would love to use, specifically the ones of Terry with the clacks tower signs but I'm not sure whether 'fair use' covers them or not. Even Wikipedia's rules don't seem to entirely cover this situation. Also the We-r-Igors picture [http://www.paulkidby.com/cmot/index.html here] is amazing. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 05:32, 30 January 2013 (GMT)
 
I share your concern over use of the Pin Exchange image, as it seems to have been lifted from the PJSM site, who have a very large warning notice up saying they will pursue breaches of copyright and unapproved re-users of their imagery.  I have emailed them to request permission (see below) and we will see what reply comes back, if any. Until then I thought it was prudent to take down the Pin Exchange picture - at least temporarily, until formal permission is or is not given. Their FAQ page suggests they will be sympathetic, though!
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
Hello,
If I can introduce myself and humbly beg a favour. I and several other Pratchett obsessives run, manage and edit the Discworld and Terry Pratchett L-Space Wiki, which we intend to be as complete an encyclopaedia of all things Pratchett as we can manage. We currently have over 3,500 entries and we hope not to stop here!
 
''(link to Main Page)''
 
We are currently looking for illustrations to accompsny our articles. Mindful of your intention to protect your copyright, we do not want to infringe or cause offence. But please could we humbly ask if we can use images of your products, with your permission, to accompany our work?  We are expressly not for profit nor in it for commercial gain, just performing a labour of love for Terry and his works. I stress that any use of your images will be accompanied by a full credit and a redirect link to your site - please view this as free advertising, as the Wiki comes up on the first page of many Google searches and draws attention from around the world. We are proud of our creation and naturally wish to source only the highest quality illustrations.  Your wishes will naturally be respected if you do not want us to use your material.
 
With very great thanks
 
----------- , posting as "AgProv".
 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
On my wiki I take copyright seriously and always try to cover myself by using the appropriate templates for image use. For an image that was 'taken', for want of a better word, from a website I use the 'Somewebsite' template, which states:
 
''"The editor who uploaded this work found it on a website or in a publication where the current copyright status is unconfirmed. This means the image may be in breach of certain copyrights even if the editor thought it to be in the public domain. This license can be used while the status of this work is determined by the editor, whose responsibility it is to ascertain the correct license. This tag should be removed when an appropriate license is in use.''
 
''If any image using this license infringes on copyright law please contact us and we will, with proof from the copyright holder, remove the work immediately with our sincere apologies."''
 
Would something like this be any use for the Pin Exchange image? -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:20, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
:Also, if you create a wide selection of templates you should be able to cover various different permissions that are granted by artists. This is my short list of [http://border-regiment.co.uk/index.php?title=Border_Regiment_Wiki:Copyrights licenses that I use]. I would certainly wouldn't mind helping you guys out there. -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:25, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Technical difficulties are temporary; do not adjust your shorts==
The dreadful slowness seems to have returned. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:23, 9 February 2013 (GMT)
 
:I haven't downsized the server. I'll have to look at log files to see if we're under higher then usual spammer load. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:08, 9 February 2013 (GMT)
 
==Architecture Change==
I've drastically changed the architecture of the backend system to more easily allow me to scale resources to demand. If you see any issues or wierdness please let me know at [mailto:disc@osiris-web.com disc@osiris-web.com]. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:54, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
 
==Uploads?==
I can't upload a file. The message is: ''Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/8/82"''. 
--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:59, 20 March 2013 (GMT)
 
:Looks like I still had a permissions issue from when I moved the image storage to Amazon S3. I've applied the proper permissions now and was able to upload a file. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 02:11, 21 March 2013 (GMT)
 
Is there still an issue with image uploads? Or are the permissions set to deny newbies from uploading images and creating pages until they have reached a certain number of edits? I only ask as I wanted to upload an icon for my talk page template and I get the following: <span style="color:red;">You do not have permission to create new pages.</span> -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 21:45, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Oddity==
Now, how can [[User:Konsumencerdas]] vandalise my user page on the 6th after having been deleted on the 3rd? ... --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:20, 6 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==Downtime==
Expect some downtime this week while I apply security updates to the wiki. Not sure when yet though. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 20:30, 15 April 2013 (GMT)
 
:unfortunately, I'm a victim of all the flooding in Illinois. No time for maintenance right now --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 13:19, 21 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==Archive==
I just noticed that the old wiki ''complete with '''histories''''' is still available at [http://wiki.affordable-prawns.co.uk/wiki/Main_Page AffordablePrawns]. I don't know how to copy them, but you can look things up. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 13:55, 17 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==Forensic?==
This might be something or it might be nothing. I expressed a suspicion some time ago that one spamming tactic being used here is for somebody to register as a legitimate user, allay any suspicion by making one or two legitimate-looking entries, and then use that legitimate site membership as a doorway to introduce spam. I believe I've found evidence of this. User Lonna7626 made a strange but obviously human change, just about legitimate in context (a very vague comment about the locker-room incident between Angua and Sally), to the Angua von Uberwald page, recorded in the history, which was deleted by a later user. Lonna7626 reappeared today with a spam posting in German extolling the virtues of Viagra and posting a link to a dubious chemists' site. I don't know if this is useful intel for Osiris, but it's another angle on the way these people are operating. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 09:06, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
 
:And if true, there's not really anything i can do about it. Now back to my unscheduled flood vacation. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 16:23, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
 
Hope you're not too badly afflicted by the floods! Just think... you could be living in Ankh-Morpork and the river in question might be.... [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:53, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
 
==1.20.5 Upgrade==
The wiki was upgraded tonight and I'm playing around with the capcha settings. Every edit should now require a capcha. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 01:36, 8 May 2013 (GMT)
 
==Spam & Moderation==
I'm seriously considering switching this wiki to a review/moderation model. Here's the extension I'm considering implementing.
 
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension%3aFlaggedRevs
 
Specifically, once a user has had a few edits reviewed, they will be added to the autoreview group so that they don't need to have approval for modifications anymore.
 
Thoughts?
 
--[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 18:05, 29 May 2013 (GMT)
 
:Sorry, I don't know if I understand through the jargon in the Mediawiki page. I'll need explanations as well as AgProv, I suspect. It doesn't sound as if it will reduce traffic in ''Recent changes'' or the ''User list''. I guess I can't tell if it will save more trouble than it costs. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:30, 29 May 2013 (GMT)
 
::Ok here's another thought, new members can't create new pages until theyve made X number of article changes that werent reverted??? --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 17:42, 31 May 2013 (GMT)
 
:::This doesn't always work as sometimes people cannot offer anything new to an existing article that improves or extends it in any way. In that case, especially if they are new to the subject, they will never be able to contribute on a wider scale and therefore don't come back to the site. -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:36, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Wait a minute...==
the page title has lost the ampersand again. That was fixed!  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:34, 29 May 2013 (GMT)
 
:I still see an ampersand. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 14:54, 30 May 2013 (GMT)
::...and not an "amp"?  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:54, 30 May 2013 (GMT)
:::looks fine to me --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 17:40, 31 May 2013 (GMT)
::Curious. On my computer or my wife's with Windows 7 it shows the code rather than the symbol, as it used to in the old version. An ampersand shows normally in the page or listed in a category, but page titles show '''& amp ;'''. While looking for examples I also found I couldn't search in the Discworld & Pratchett Wiki namespace: content, users, categories, but not D & PW. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 23:30, 31 May 2013 (GMT)
 
==I'm locked out!==
There seems to be a spanner in the works in the permissions area. Usually I can log in, but I get chucked out again as soon as I try to edit. I get permission error as well as a notice that I must have cookies enabled (which of course they are, as usual). Sometimes I can get in one edit. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 13:35, 4 June 2013 (GMT)<br>
It's intermittent: it was ok for a while but now it's back. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 16:44, 4 June 2013 (GMT)<br>
Same bs today: can't log in, log-in comes and goes, no permission, no cookies...--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:11, 5 June 2013 (GMT)<br>
Pfui. I thought resetting the modem was going to work, but no, same rotating error messages. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:17, 7 June 2013 (GMT)<br>
But then, I find I can just ignore many of the error messages, go back and do it again. It just takes twice as long. Gremlins. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:36, 7 June 2013 (GMT)<br>
Definitely gremlins. Everything works normally today...so far.--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:16, 8 June 2013 (GMT)
:I'm continuing to have permission problems. Shame really as I have had plenty of spare time today and I can't get on with creating new templates that I think would be helpful to the site. (signing without my other signature as not to incur the wrath of those higher up the food chain!) --[[User:CelticWanderer|CelticWanderer]] ([[User talk:CelticWanderer|talk]]) 14.54, 9 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Contact us page==
I was wondering if you could implement a contact us page for those who would like to, for instance, contact an admin if they have a question prior to registration or, like myself, have registered, have verified my email address but now cannot use the wiki's internal mail system. Frustrating, especially as it says my email address has not been verified, when it has. I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere but having a contact us page would be helpful for such instances (as I have tried to contact admin without luck). My [http://border-regiment.co.uk/index.php?title=Border_Regiment_Wiki:Contact_Us contact us] page is simple but effective and anyone who has question, concern or general comment can get in touch by clicking on the mailto: link that opens up the user's own default email client.
 
Is this something you could possibly implement in the near future? -- <small><span style="border: 1px solid #183a55">[[User:CelticWanderer|'''<span style="background-color:white; color:#183a55">&nbsp;&nbsp;CelticWanderer&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Editcount/CelticWanderer|<span style="background-color:#183a55; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;edits&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 20:44, 7 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==User rights==
Apparently the restriction on page creation is installed, but how should one become a ''creator''? [[User:Drakon467|Drakon467]] has created a page already; [[User:Bs75660|Bs75660]] has three months of useful minor edits; [[User:Sdornhoff|Sdornhoff]] and [[User:Sharlee|Sharlee]] show more than ten edits each.<br>
The rules will also need to be explained to new members {linked in the Main Page and included in their confirmation e-mails?) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 14:26, 9 June 2013 (GMT)
:I think something needs to be set in stone in a clear, concise manner and shown in obvious place. Tell us what new members can or cannot do on this wiki and if we cannot create new pages to start with (which is a good idea to prevent any unnecessary spamming and vandalism), we should be notified that we have to make a minimum of, for instance, at least five edits before page creation is allowed.
:I think this should be included in a user's talk page when they create their account. I use the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NewUserMessage New User Message] extension, which displays a welcome message of your choosing on the user's talk page. The user can make any necessary changes to their talk page later by simply editing it should they wish but at least it will inform them of what they can and cannot do on this wiki. Here is an [http://border-regiment.co.uk/index.php?title=User_talk:Ahnawiki example of a user page] on my wiki that was created using the above mentioned extension. --[[User:CelticWanderer|CelticWanderer]] ([[User talk:CelticWanderer|talk]]) 15:56, 9 June 2013 (GMT)
 
I was just looking at the user rights list and see that [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] is the ''only'' person (apart from the other admins) who can create pages. Is this right? Why have emailconfirmed and autoconfirmed options if they aren't being used effectively? I have confirmed my email address but I don't appear in the email confirmed list. And I have made 30+ edits (all be it mostly here and my own user pages) over the last three days. The only reason I can think of having the 'creator' user rights option is for admin to physically give a user the appropriate permissions to create pages upon proof of their usefulness as an editor. If this is the case then fair enough, it's a good idea but can we please be notified from the start so we know where stand. I hope to be of some use to this site but at the moment with the permissions as they are I feel what I can offer is limited. --[[User:CelticWanderer|CelticWanderer]] ([[User talk:CelticWanderer|talk]]) 16:15, 9 June 2013 (GMT)
 
:Those groups are just a couple days old. I've been configuring autopromotion to make users implicit members of these groups. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 19:12, 9 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Quotes (again)==
''copied from Archive 3'' <br>
Sorry if this has come up before (I couldn't see it anywhere) or if I'm in the wrong place, but I think it would be a good idea to have quotes at the top each article. There are two main reasons: 1) Demonstrates a bit about the character in the purest form... 2) Gives us an excuse to quote Pratchett, who's amazing quotable. One wiki I've seen do this is Wookieepedia (e.g. [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis here]), although there are many others. I imagine the quotes would look something like this:
:"''Blahblahblah.''"
:? Rincewind, ''[[The Colour of Magic]]''
Only handled by a nice template. [[User:Harry Blue5|Harry Blue5]] 20:15, 16 August 2011 (CEST)
::This would be a great idea to implement and I am surprised it hasn't been introduced already. I wouldn't mind coming up with a template for it. --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 15:26, 9 June 2013 (GMT)
:::Are there any objections to this? --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 16:32, 10 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==A category main page, perhaps?==
Is it just me or does anyone else sometimes find the [[Special:Categories|categories]] page a little bland? Ok, as an alphabetical list this does its job more than adequately but has anyone considered having a categories main page (a sort of landing page, top level page or contents page for categories) and linking it to the sidebar for easy access. This is something I implemented a while back on my own wiki and I find it a useful tool for browsing the entire site via categories. Is this something you would be interested in implementing here? --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 16:29, 10 June 2013 (GMT)
:Does anyone have any objections to this? --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 08:55, 12 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Watchlist issue==
My Watchlist is showing actions that shouldn't be there. I use the watchlist because [[Special:RecentChanges|RecentChanges]] is so overpopulated with newly created spam accounts making it awkward to find the genuine stuff. But, I seem to have [[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] merge/delete actions appearing, as shown below:
<pre>
(User merge log); 14:49 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) User NormanHil (7968) merged to Anonymous (0) ‎
(User merge log); 14:49 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: NormanHil (7968) ‎
(User merge log); 14:09 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: ErickaJQV (6047) ‎
(User merge log); 14:09 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) User ErickaJQV (6047) merged to Anonymous (0) ‎
(User merge log); 14:03 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) User PaulinaCl (7963) merged to Anonymous (0) ‎
(User merge log); 14:03 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: PaulinaCl (7963) ‎
(User merge log); 14:03 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: JerriFTE (7959) ‎
(User merge log); 14:03 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) User JerriFTE (7959) merged to Anonymous (0) ‎
(User merge log); 14:03 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) User ElissaMae (7945) merged to Anonymous (0) ‎
(User merge log); 14:03 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: ElissaMae (7945) ‎
(User merge log); 14:02 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: BritneyBo (7942) ‎
(User merge log); 14:02 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) User BritneyBo (7942) merged to Anonymous (0) ‎
(User merge log); 14:02 . . Old Dickens (Talk | contribs) Deleted user: WillisVFO (7887) ‎
</pre>
I would like to see only the pages I have added to my watchlist; is this happening to anyone else? Any suggestions how to correct this? Thanks. --{{User:CelticWanderer/sig}} 17:00, 10 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Little administrative problem==
Offing so many spammers in one go gave a real  sense of achievement. I also have an uneasy feeling that when I went into autopilot on the delete button,  User Sharlee (7070) might have been legitimate, as  on reviewing, he/she made a couple of insightful edits to the [[Unseen University]] page. '''''(Deep sense of "whoops")''''' I may have deleted them in error. Is it possible to get a second opinion on this and restore them?[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 23:31, 17 June 2013 (GMT)
:[[User:Sharlee|Sharlee]] certainly had several legitimate edits, but I can't see anything to do about it. There's no unmerge function or undo in the logs that I can find. Oh, [[User:Osiris|Osiris]]!...--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:06, 18 June 2013 (GMT)
::too late. Nothing can be done. Sorry guys I'm getting married next week so I haven't been around much. --[[User:Osiris|Osiris]] ([[User talk:Osiris|talk]]) 04:39, 18 June 2013 (GMT)
Mazel tov, Osiris! There's got to be a better way... I'm ashamed to say while I've deleted a thousand spam accounts, two legitimate users have been deleted in error too, in the last week. And in the last month three thousand spam accounts have been created and are yet to be dealt with. That error rate is just too high (I've left fulsome apologies where I hope they'll be seen. Wish I had their email addresses so I could apologise in person. are these stored anywhere?) While I've cleared out all the spam accounts beginning with "A" and a good few of the "B"'s  - as well as routine demolition of new ones as they pop up - I'm now hideously aware that mistakes will inevitably happen and I do not want to make any more. So tonight I've just identified a few known legitimate users who still have to make an entry on their user pages and left temporary messages there, so they show up blue in the user list and are less likely to be deleted in error. but there has to be a better way around this. Otherwise I'd keep on zapping through the B's....[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:18, 22 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Re: Sharlee==
So, if [[User:Sharlee|Sharlee]] is viewing, she(?) will have to sign up anew with our apologies for allowing [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] to operate a vehicle on the internet while ratted. (If the old name doesn't work, add an "e".)<br> --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:26, 19 June 2013 (GMT)
 
Sharlee appears to have made further edits on the 19th June - I merged her in error on the 17th. So that's heartening. I have left an apology message on her userpage. [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 22:04, 20 June 2013 (GMT)
 
Sharlee turned out to have an account on the Official Terry Pratchett forums. I sent her an apology and invitation to rejoin via PM. Aldibibable (Rob from Dudley) has an account on Wikipedia; there can't be two people with that username, so I sent him an apology  and POM via Wikipedia so he's aware. I think the situation is rescuable...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:43, 22 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==You-Tube==
Just discovered there's an anti-spam filter in place  that prevents new links being made to You-Tube. Does this mean all old you-Tube links are now dead, and need to be edited out? and/Or that it's no longer possible to link to any external site? Ah well, i suppose it's necessary...[[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 18:22, 26 June 2013 (GMT)
:Was there an old You-Tube link? Without being able to remember one, I'd say I could do without them. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:16, 27 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Clever buggers==
''from discussion in [[User talk:AgProv]]''...
 
So, [[User:Parent7kettle|Parent7kettle]] and [[User:Taiwan5kettle|Taiwan5kettle]] have found a foxhole in the database where they can't be killed. We haven't heard from them directly, though, since 8 Jun. [[User:DortheaM3|DortheaM3]] is a bit different: shows as "not registered" and "Invalid old user name" but still appears in the history by name, not as "Anonymous". [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] may refer to the same account I found that had been deleted three times; we also saw [[User:Sharlee|Sharlee]] re-enlist under the same name. I can put up with the re-registering, the alternative seems worse, but DortheaM3 and the kettle brothers seem to point out serious holes in the perimeter. . --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:10, 27 June 2013 (GMT)
 
Just a thought, why don't you try registering under the DorotheaM3 username and see what happens? If you can register then I smell a bug in the logging. Maybe deleting the account again would clear it. If you can't register than rather than a bug I detect a rat. [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 18:17, 27 June 2013 (GMT)
 
==Speaking of spam==
 
Can I ask what I am meant to do if I find spam? For example I just came across [[User talk:JamalChap]] while taking a glance in recent changes. I have blanked a couple of pages in the past, but I don't want to seem like I am trying to play admin. Are you guys happy with us as users removing links or do we need to report or what? [[User:Manwe|Manwe]] ([[User talk:Manwe|talk]]) 18:04, 27 June 2013 (GMT)

Latest revision as of 16:59, 18 March 2024

 This is a location to discuss non-content matters (what do we do with content disputes, vandalism, etc, what do we want to do with this wiki, and so on).

This is the page for current discussions.

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AI content and fan project promotion

So we have a new contributor (hello DugBride if you’re reading this) who is adding AI-generated images to pages without images, and attributing them to their fan project, a Discworld “re-skin” of the board game Oath. Which means the time has come for us to have a policy about AI-generated content. As a writer, actor, teacher, podcaster and more, every facet of my life is currently being made worse or at best more complicated by diffusion model images and large language model text, so I’m not a fan. But I recognise that’s not necessarily a majority opinion. So: what do we think? I don’t think we want AI text here at all, and at a bare minimum I want art to be clearly attributed to the model that created it. I would prefer hand-drawn fan art for character and item art, and I confess I am not a fan of some of the images uploaded so far, but again I recognise that’s a preference. But I am also not in favour of the wiki being filled up with images that promote a fan project, even if it is one I’m interested in. (This is why I have limited mention of my own podcast here, and started my own wiki for the detail I wanted to share.) What do you folks think? -- Guybrush (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not a fan either, of course, and I would certainly ban AI-generated text, except how would you recognise it? Images are more difficult. What if the image were created in an old-fashioned (two years ago?) drawing program? What about photographs? I expect you know a lot more about the process than I; what if the AI is just used to smooth out an original drawing or color it, or...? Enforcement seems to be the hardest part. Other ideas, anyone? Old Dickens (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I’m not proposing we get too draconian about it, but having an official policy (or as close to official as we get) is enough to get us started. If folks want to ignore the rules and do it anyway, we can address that if necessary. I would just like us to be clear about whether we want images created by a diffusion model - which is to say, a generative AI like MidJourney or Dall-E which takes a text prompt and then creates an image based on analysis of training images (many used without permission) and associated descriptions. If someone makes art themselves and includes some kind of computer assistance in their process, I am not that fussed, just as I don’t mind if someone has a chat with ChatGPT to get inspiration for the fanfic they then go on to write. But the kind of thing created just by prompting an algorithm seems rather against the fandom spirit of L-Space, to me; fandom involves community, and that means if you need art for a project, you talk to other fans and find fan artists who are willing to help. An example policy might be something like: “This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator.” -- Guybrush (talk) 08:00, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi there thanks for the welcome and open discussion I was aware both issues you have raised were contentious which is why I messaged Old Dickens direct before touching a page to get the go ahead to open this can of worms. I don't know how the back end of these things work so had to feel my way and have learned a fair bit in the past couple of days. Including where you talk about these things.
Here is where I am at...I would say if you don't like AI content then don't allow any AI content, if it is uploaded but then attributed to the model then I think you would be promoting it and will get a lot more. It has been surprisingly easy for me as a first time user to access and upload images seemingly without any gatekeeping, I am sure you already have safeguards against this but you may want to relook at those if you are hoping people will act in good faith. As for the project promotion, I agree it's a bit too much and if it's OK I will remove all references just leave the link in in my profile. Following the example set by Guybrush. I will of course not add any more pics but, it might be best if the current images stay while you make your decision, a picture tells a 1000 words even if those words are “we don't want these pictures” if then they are removed you may have to do it because although I can remove the page code, I have no idea how to delete uploaded files. Ironically I have been using both this reference and Guybrush’s podcast regularly without knowing they are connected for the last few months to get up to speed on Discworld, it took me all my life to read most of the books and so I have had to take shortcuts to work on the project references. I have a lot of respect for both sources and wouldn't want to cause any trouble.
If the images are unwelcome then I doubt I will have much to add as a contributor, there are a few unanswered questions when doing my research that I might be able to offer something on; Holy horns gesture? Guild Weathervanes? But you seem to have a lot covered and I have my own shed to be working in, maybe further down the road if you need some help administrating incoming imagery then I can help, although my field is Digital Imagery I am no artist and no expert in spotting deep fakes either. Finally I am thrilled you have both looked at my work in progress even if your not fans, I appreciate discerning feedback but happy to keep in my shed for now where I can choose how long Carrot has grown his hair. DugBride 11:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Hey DugBride - I might not be a fan of the art, or even Oath, but your project is pretty amazing! And we do have a Fandom page where you could list it, at the very least. I want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in generous good faith, too. I’m not interested in having to police images really, but I think if we have a policy and find the right place to get it in front of users then that should be enough - I’m not expecting a torrent of diffusion model generated Discworld characters any time soon! — Guybrush (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd go along with Guybrush's policy statement, above, now, where does it go? I wouldn't like a big banner of "don'ts" on the front page, but if it's in "About", or Help:Editing nobody will read it. Help:Editing is already noted at the top of every editing page, so I guess we could say ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have to defer to Guybrush on interpretation of what's too much AI; I don't suppose it's possible to credit the source in an AI image when there might be dozens. Old Dickens (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
I think on image upload I had to tick a box marked "this is my own work" If it had said this is my own work and not AI generated I would have halted at that point. Apologies for the multi edits; still learning. --DugBride (talk) 12:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

This is a pretty good idea. What if we create a policies page (it could also include guidelines on annotations etc) and then link to that from the upload page? We can probably change the language on the upload page itself, too. And to be honest ownership is part of the problem; at the moment the ownership of generated images is murky at best, and it’s certainly unclear who owns copyright. So that does seem like the right place to put it. — Guybrush (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC) On the subject of “how much AI is too much AI” I don’t think that’s a big problem; right now the thing we don’t want are wholly generated images - things created by diffusion models and similar tools, stuff like MidJourney or Dall-E, which create an image for you based on a text prompt. We don’t need to worry about folks using “AI” tools when making digital fan art (anything vaguely automated is being misleadingly lLabelled “AI” At the moment, even when many of those technologies already existed under other more sensible names). Perhaps we just need a clarifying clause on the “your own artwork” covering that it has to be yours, used with permission, allowed by copyright law and attributable to a person. I think it will also help to include in our art policy that as a fan project we want to showcase fan artists; you are welcome to use whatever you like to make art for yourself or or your own projects, but here we want to showcase human-drawn (etc) fan art. And as a longer term solution, perhaps I can do some call-outs in other fan spaces asking if folks have character and location fan art they’d be happy for us to use on the wiki for articles which lack images? — Guybrush (talk) 20:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I second all that, except that the Upload file page is for images and doesn't relate to annotations; also it's a "special page" and Osiris would have to modify it. Help:editing is already linked from editing pages. Old Dickens (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
DugBride has removed his contributions. I'm of two minds on this; I have despised computer-generated pop music for many years now and I would prefer hand-made art or clever photographs, but we've begged for illustration for years and some of what we have isn't very good. I wish we could have more as useful as PetuliaGristle.jpg for example. Are these opposite and irreconcilable viewpoints? Old Dickens (talk) 04:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Missed one, just removed Detritus from the page this morning, like I said I can't do much about the images I uploaded as it won't let me delete the copy on the server. I sympathise with your issue, there are significant characters and locations without graphical representation. The AI works for me as I have to produce 250 images for a very small audience on zero budget, and I am more keen on design and mechanics than artistry. I don't think its as vital a part of your offering. Its possible that in the new year I will take Guybrush's advise and reach out to some of the fan-artists to see if they want to help my project but only when I have something significant to demonstrate. I'll be happy to mention the gaps here that need filling, but it sounds like you have already been down that road. --DugBride (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi, all, sorry I'm late to the discussion... boarding school at Hogswatch is a time sink. Anyway, y'all have said pretty much everything I would have, so all I'll do here is lend one more voice in support of Guybrush's suggestion, This wiki does not permit the use of content created wholly or primarily by generative AI systems, including large language and diffusion models for text or art. All text added should be the work of the contributor; any art uploaded should be done so only with permission, and attributed to the creator. I don't think we need to do much more in terms of advertising or enforcement, as long as we have something like this clearly stated somewhere. People don't necessarily read rules before editing. If we find someone using ChatGPT to make articles, we politely ask them to stop, and can point them to the statement if they wonder whether the polite ask has community consensus behind it. Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Have you watched The Holdovers? Old Dickens (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
I haven't, but I just read about the movie... boarding schools are (for the most part) very, very different places in 2023 than they were in 1970. Yet, the popular perception of class privilege and influence lives on in the zeitgeist. My school doesn't allow students to remain on campus over Christmas break. The ones for whom getting home would be prohibitive - usually just a few folks from overseas - generally stay with friends. We have a faculty member who helps coordinate such stays if students need help. My family hosted several of my son's friends, who were from China and Vietnam, on occasion.
Okay, in spring 2020 most of our international students remained on campus, and I was one of many faculty who volunteered to chaperone / entertain them. That's a very different story, with very different cultural context, to what I read about The Holdovers. <smile>

Atom

Clicking Atom in the sidebar bar produces the message: "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.", followed by pages of XML gibberish. Not widely useful. Old Dickens (talk) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The Atom link is only visible in Recent Changes, your Watchlist or the history of a specific page, and generates an RSS feed (in Atom format) from entries in that list using XML which is (hypothetically) useful for other apps or websites to read. The main use case I’ve seen for that recently is a Discord bot which posts recent changes to a specific text channel, but generally speaking RSS has fallen from favour for most uses except podcasting. The Atom feed option is built in to MediaWiki so we can’t remove it by editing the sidebar menu, but probably there’s an option to disable it in the config file if we really want to. (FYI I don’t get the error you mentioned, though I did get a different one trying to view the feed for my Watchlist that suggests we might have an out of date extension somewhere?) — Guybrush (talk) 12:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Spamagain

Suddenly, the SEOs are back! Old Dickens (talk) 16:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

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