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Hi. Weren't you here before? Certainly I remember a similar handle doing a bit of good work, probably before the restart nearly three years ago.


You'll find quite a lot of material in 3760 articles here, particularly the [[Bibliography|Book]] and [[:Category:Annotations|Annotations]] pages, as well as in [http://www.lspace.org The L-Space Web] and other sites listed in [[Fandom]]. Whenever our [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] shows up again he'll likely have ideas - a few off the top of my head:
==Vetinari. Vampire?==
I was just listening to [[user:Guybrush|Guybrush]] and friends on Pratchat's {{NW}} episode.  They were discussing young Vetinari, and how Lord V always plays the long game politically.  Or the longest game.  And they discussed his relationship with his "Aunt," who (Pratchat suggested) may very well not be an actual Aunt.  As well as the similarities between Lady Margolotta and Lady Meserole.


*Comparison to Jonathan Swift, Miguel de Cervantes, discussion of parody in general; parody vs satire.
I remember the gut punch I felt the first time I read {{UA}} when Glenda says in her internal monologue, "they say he [Vetinari] is a vampire..."


*Comparison to modern observational comics: I've always thought that George Carlin did much the same kind of work in a short, punchy stand-up format without the plotting and character development.
It seemed a throwaway line, as she was musing (I think) about the upcoming dinner being thrown for the footballers by the Wizards, to which Vetinari was invited.  But Pratchett doesn't throw away lines.


*Probably my favorite device of Pterry's (your wife might have a name for it) was his knack of telling a story without action words, just describing the resulting scene so that you knew what happened without explanation.
I've always thought of Vetinari as Ankh Morpork's version of Margolotta.   
Good luck spreading the word.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:11, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


:Hi, Old Dickens... You're right that I worked here a bit one summer, in the Time When Things Were Otherwise And The Moon Was Different, I suppose.  Good to be back.  I never thought of the Carlin comparison, but it seems apt. Thanks for the welcome, and the comments.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 19:53, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
[Okay, time for class, more to come here. I have some textual evidence I'll bring forth.  In the meantime... have we ever seen Vetinari out in the direct sunlight? He wears the signet ring that nearly burns Moist at one point... probably we have, but there's that line repeated multiple times about how he seems to be awake and working at all hours...][[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:54, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


A football legend called Moishe Rosenbaum.... I can see the humour here. Apparently one member of England's 1966 World Cup squad was ambiguously Jewish, and Liverpool's world dominating squad of the late 1980's boasted Israeli international Ronnie Rosenthal, whilst Tottenham Hotspur are based in the most Jewish part of North London and are nicknamed '''The Yids''' (by ''their own fans''... they take pride in a Jewish identity of club and area) ..  but that's pretty much it.... welcome back to our fellowship. The only idea that occurs off the top of my head:
Now... some evidence-like substance.


* Charting the evolution of the standard "monster" types through the history of the Discworld novels. From their roots in folklore, other peoples' fantasy fiction, and perhaps in tabletop gaming. How the vampire evolves in Discworld, for instance, from versions recognisable by Bram Stoker and F.W. Murnau through Hammer Horror films (Christopher Lee), to Anne Rice's navel-gazing angst-ridden creation, to Whitley Streiber's, and on to 1990's film interpretations such as Gary Oldman's 1992 film version. The way the legend is universal and vampires are in virtually everyone's folklore - but methods for despatching them vary wildly and ridiculously, as do the powers the individual vampire can call upon.  (Count Notfaratou v the Count de Magpyr v Otto Chriek v Sally von Humpeding). The idea that the blood-lust is a craving and one addiction can replace another....  and how, if taken past absurdity, everything is fair game for humour. 
We know that reformed B-word-less vampires transfer their craving, their *obsessiveness*, to something else. Coffee. Photography.  Political manipulations in Uberwald. Vetinari is obsessed, too - with the city of Ankh-Morpork.  He even says so, in a line that seems like it should be accompanied by a maniacal laugh, I think in Making Money: "It's about the city. It's always about the city."
* You could do similar exercises for trolls, elves, golems, werewolves, et c, as presented in the Discworld. How trolls finesse the sunlight thing in a civilization which has evolved deep-freezes and barrier cream. In our world, people of different ''races'' find it hard to get along. How would a world with a dozen different sentient ''species'' work - how do they all coexist? --(Unsigned comment by [[User:AgProv|AgProv]], who has been away a few days and forgotten the drill, 19 Jul 2015)


:Thanks, AgProv! I really like the idea of using the theme of species evolution, from trope to modern Ankh-Morporian.  That would give me an excuse to dig into the folklore a bit.  That's something I know a wee bit about, but not really a whole lot.
I'm not sure where I stand on Vetinari's blood-relation (sorry, wrong word) to Meserole. I agree with Pratchat that they seem to say "Aunt" way too often. But... My own crazy thought is that Lady Meserole and Margolotta are *THE SAME PERSON*.  And she could indeed by Vetinari's aunt.  In NW, she swoops in from far away and insinuates herself into powerful political circles, creating change that works to her benefit in the long term.  Who says she didn't swoop into Uberwald after the Dark War to do the same thing, the endgame of which we saw in T5E?  She behaves differently while executing her machinations in Ankh Morpork, but she blends in culturally for her ends.  I suspect she recognized that Nephew Havelock would be the right person at the right time in AM, so she installed him and now they rule two parts of the continent jointly.


:I've used this wiki to look at annotations, especially of the recent books.  The old APF seemed reasonably comprehensive for older books; there seems to be plenty of room in this wiki for expansion of annotations beyond APF and what's here already.  That's probably what I'll work on when I have a chance.  Of course, annotations are really, really tough -- every time I dig into what seems to be a straightforward reference, I get what could be an entire research paper.  So there's an idea for a course right there.  Sure, the Beverly Hills Cop scene in Men at Arms couldn't be more obvious, but what if anything is the historical basis for Moist von Lipwig?  And who are all the roundworld characters amalgamated into William de Worde?  Usually, the simplistic answer is too simplistic.
Or not.   


:I got myself a hard copy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, which Sir Terry said he used extensively. He wrote the introduction to the edition I have.  Between that, The Folklore of Discworld, this wiki, and just the general internet, there seems to be all sorts of background information on the Discworld species, and how Pratchett uses and references them. Do youall know of any other specific sources I should be aware of?
I have always felt that Pratchett himself had a long game in mind for these characters, but ran out of Time to tell the story.  Vampires, though... live many human life spans.  [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:08, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
:This conspiracy theory mania is getting out of hand. Have you found any basement dungeons in pizza parlours that don't have basements lately? Sam Vimes doesn't miss much and if the Patrician were a Vampire he would be very annoyed and we would have heard about it. Never mind that Angua would smell him at fifty yards. On the other hand, I always doubted that Lady Roberta was a blood relation (although I wrote a fanfic on the idea that she was his mother's sister, just on the Pratchettian idea of "what if?"). She may just have noticed him as someone useful to the movement, or just interesting to a cougar (female "funny uncle"?). It's all speculation. I also suggest that she's an agent of Margolotta's intelligence network and the connection between M and V.  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
:However improbable, the Vampire idea isn't original. See [[Talk:Havelock Vetinari#Age quibble]].  --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 03:13, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
:True, Vetinari's devotion to the city hasn't been explained (to me). Why does the greatest mind of his generation apply his talents to the care and feeding of this big dirty, smelly, grotty accumulation of humanoids? Of course, it might be that it's the grandest vision of SimCity in the metaverse and the only game that challenges him. He seems to get nothing out of the office except the chance to play the game (and perhaps to improve the city, which would lead back to the original question). --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 04:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
::I played SimCity once, in something like 1994. That's a fascinating idea.  I wonder, are there any direct references that could be to the video game? The only thing I can think of offhand is, if you didn't put in the correct code from the manual, then the game assumed it was being played with pirated software, and your city was attacked by a dragon within minutes. (I know your SimCity comparison is not necessarily literal; you've described the most likely Vetinari motivation I can think of.  Yet I wonder... TP plays multidimensional chess, there could easily be subtle references that I'd miss.)


:And Moishe owns a fantasy *american* football team, i.e. Robot Rugby.  That said, I'm spending August in London with my family on sabbatical.  I'm going to spend a good bit of time digging into (English) football culture, attending games, touring grounds, etc.  When I broadcast baseball and american football, I'm drawing on three-plus decades of experience listening to and watching games.  I've only been following association football carefully since 2011 -- haven't missed watching more than a couple Arsenal games in that time.  So I think Moishe is going to have to deal this season with a new co-owner, one who doesn't understand why the referee is dressed like a Newcastle supporter, and why he doesn't hand out red cards for some of those bone-crunching tackles.  Thanks for the comments and ideas![[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 16:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
::You're right that Angua would sniff Vetinari out instantly if he were in fact a vampire.  I can't think, though, of a scene with both Angua and Vetinari in.  Look, you're probably right that I'm engaging in ''Koom Valley Codex''-level conspiracies here.  But abf is defunct.  If not on my talkpage, then where else?  :-) [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 19:37, 23 April 2022 (UTC)


Hi Moishe! In agreement on Annotations. I've been re-reading {{MR}} and found a couple of obvious ones that I'd missed the last time I picked the book up - every time I come back with a fresh eye, there's always more. Which is a tribute to the depth of Terry Pratchett's original vision. I realised with the thing about "the barefoot army" that there's a lot to be mined from historical accounts of armies pushed past the point of desperation, but still fighting - when a country is running on empty, but still refuses to give up. The thing about the Confederacy (no boots, but they were potentially in ample supply let down by inter-State bickering and bad supply) was just the beginning of it and I could have gone on for paragraphs more - an example of one little throwaway line opening up a  thesis. Which is also part of the Pratchett genius - how he must have read thousands of words on a fringe topic but condenses it all down into six or seven words of telling detail. Some of my annotations make the association, then waffle on in proving it and adding detail.... the thesis is there, in IKEA self-assembly form.
==Annotations==
I wish we had the old Biers discussion page for administrators, but no... You apparently allow editing of annotations, which hasn't been usual, annotations being regarded as personal opinions which couldn't be gainsaid. This seemed to make them very popular; I spent two years fighting with people about them, but I had no support for any controls. I applaud the recent edit of [[Rufus Drumknott]], but what is the policy? <BR>(You may also need an archive here soon; partly my fault, I suppose.)--[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 02:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
:Huh.  I wasn't active in the early years of this wiki, so I must have entirely missed that discussion.  On one hand, I am absolutely respectful of a community consensus, and so won't remove others' annotations any more now that I know of how they've traditionally been regarded here; but a consensus from 2006 or so should likely be revisited. <BR><BR> If you're asking my personal view, I suppose I'd suggest that annotations should at least be plausibly specific.  That is, if someone's opinion is that a Pratchett scene is based on / related to something in history or literature, they should make their case, and other editors should default to leaving that case visible.  However, if the link to Pratchett's scene is in no way specific, we should remove it.  <BR><BR>  To take an absurd example - let's pretend that Gaspode had just appeared in Pratchett's works in, say, 2010. The annotation that I'd sigh and let stand would say something like "Gaspode the talking dog might be a reference to the talking dog in The Family Guy."  The annotation I'd remove would be "Gaspode the dog might be a reference to the basketball playing dog in Air Bud." What's the difference?  Plausible specificity.  Gaspode's primary distinguishing trait is that he is a dog *who can talk* - as is the Family Guy dog.  I don't see any specific relationship between the Air Bud dog and Gaspode, other than them just being talented dogs.  <BR><BR> Now, the annotation that would make my heart leap with joy would demonstrate external-to-the-novels evidence that TP was a Family Guy fan, and would show even another layer of specificity in the annotation - perhaps Gaspode had used several phrases directly from the TV show or something. That's the type of annotation that the APF is - was - full of, the kind I'd love to see more of.  Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out. <BR><BR> Old Dickens, you're the, well, old hand at administrating here, so I'm just putting in my two pence where I've been asked.  I'd love to hear what Guybrush or Jagra or (if they're around) AgProv think nowadays. Happy to move this conversation off my talk page if that'd be better.  [Oh, and would you be able to point me to somewhere to learn how to archive?  You're right that this talk page is getting long and ancient... :-)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 21:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)


Taking the "barefoot army" throwaway line - on the surface it concisely describes an Army at its last gasp which has run out of everything but is still adamant in refusing to surrender. But that's not all there is to it, when you read about one state in the Confederacy that easily made enough footwear for ''every'' Confederate soldier and then some over - but ''refused to issue them beyond their own State''. And about a chaotic supply system incapable of getting kit where it was needed - the Confederacy also had ample artillery that was just parked up doing nothing a long way from the front lines.  Things have a surface level, then a level beneath that, then a third stratum of reference... There's a story about the British Army general who read {{MR}}, and demanded to know how somebody who has never been in the Army could write such an accurate book, full of all the little telling details only squaddies are supposed to know. Terry replied that to his best knowledge, Homer had never been a hoplite or gone to war with a Greek army - he just did his research, and asked people who ''had''. Then wrote the ''Iliad''. 
I'd love a new consensus on annotations with some kind of rein on the inanity; we can move to the Mended Drum. My point was always that if an annotation was useful and supportable it should be in the body of the article and editable like anything else. Annotation pages are also available. To archive, just create a page and copy the form from the [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1]], correcting the specifics. Then cut and paste whatever chunk you want. I should do one myself. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 22:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)<BR>
I just came across a precursor to this discussion from 2011! See [[Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:User talk:Old Dickens/Archive 1#Threshold of evidence]]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)


On characters and monsters: take a look at British Isles folk music. Steeleye Span, for instance, one of Terry's great musical influences. You could discuss the philosophical and gender differences between witches and wizards - then play them the Span's take on the old ballad, ''The Two Magicians''. This one song runs right through {{ER}} and fuels one climactic scene. ''Seven Hundred Elves'' is about Elves as they really were and are seen in {{LL}}. (touches iron). ''Long Lankin'' is a ballad about a mediaeval psychopathic killer. When you listen to it, you ''know'' why one Elf gets called Lankin. The Span do Scottish stuff too as well as English. ''Parcel of Rogues'' is tinged with Feegle-speak. And, more crucially, with Feegle-''think''. 
==Futbol==
oh. yeah. The women have been a power for a while. The men are slowly catching up, but there isn't much excuse for the national side or Toronto FC in a country chock-a-block with immigrants from football-mad countries around the world. (Alphonso Davies isn't a great penalty kicker, unfortunately.) --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:16, 2 December 2022 (UTC)


Remembering to sign off with my name - I'm too used to tvtropes formatting, it's spoiling me for here! [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 00:02, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
:Ah.  A big problem with US Men's soccer has been exactly the "chock-a-block with immigrants" issue.  Those immigrants were never represented on the national team, or in the US youth system.  For all the money US soccer spent, they would have done better simply plucking the best teenager from every New York, Los Angeles, or Houston city park.  I'm finally seeing some ethnic diversity on our team - and they're playing well.  Go figure. <shrug> [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 01:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
:Cool... I'm American, and I never made the Confederate connection. But it seems dead on.  I just read this morning the annotation about Snuff and Samwise's scouring.  Never occurred to me, clear once it's pointed out. 
Well, that was quick. Guybrush wins our pool by a point, but Sanity/Leo were always more likely. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 21:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)


:The school where I teach performed the musical "Catch me if you can", which is based on a 2002 movie of the same name.  The whole time I could think of nothing but that I was watching the prequel to Going Postal. Frank Abagnale *is* Moist von Lipwig, at least to me.  I know that Moist is an amalgamation of an archetypical character, of course, not based on any one person; this wiki postulates several historical Moists, and I've no doubt Sir Terry was aware of all of them. As you say, one character / line / event leads to a long thesis. 
==Blockage==
 
You got one! One point: we don't usually block forever, because that ip will be blocked for whomever inherits it. A week would probably do; I've generally made it six months. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 00:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
:Keep the thoughts, annotations, and ideas coming, please, AgProv and others.  I'm headed to London on sabbatical during the month of August.  Among the many goals for the month is some in-country background on some of the books.  (I'm also umpiring a bit for the London Mets; I'm trying to get in touch with soccer radio broadcasters to talk shop and learn about their craft.  And we'll do all the typical touristy things, like walk across the Bridge of Size.)[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 12:41, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
:Got it! Changing now... [[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)<BR>
 
[[User:Osiris|Headquarters]] says we shouldn't block ip addresses for the time being. Unfortunately, selective unblocking doesn't seem to be available, despite the instruction. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 15:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC) - Ah, but it's easy with Change Block in the log. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 17:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
'''''[[Moist von Lipwig]]'''''. Now there isn't just a thesis, there's a full scholarly treatise. My very first search threw up all the people listed as Annotations, especially the guy who sold the Eiffel Tower for scrap. Twice. And that's just scratching the surface... My suggestion here is to become acquainted with Harry Harrison's sci-fi comedy series, ''The Stainless Steel Rat''. In which there is a con-man, one of the last criminals left in the galaxy, thirty thousand years in the future. He refuses to kill people, only applies corrective violence if there is no alternative, and prefers separating people and their money in some very inventive non-confrontational ways. Jim di Griz has a ball as he cons and buncos his way between planets, until the day he is picked up by a Macchiavellian schemer called Inskipp who offers him an Angel. Either join the Galactic Special Corps and use your skills for good, or get something like a frontal lobotomy (only nastier) to burn the criminal tendencies out of your brain. No pressure, your choice. In the series, he gets a girlfriend, later wife, with serious anger management issues. ("Slippery Jim" and the spiky Angelina go on to have twin sons, but Pratchett, alas, did not get this far with Moist and Adora Belle.) Narrating the novels, Jim diGriz describes the tricks he uses and how they work and an extremely moist-like voice emerges. I have a distinct feeling Terry Pratchett had read the Stainless Steel Rat books, as Moist von Lipwig is pretty much a Jim diGriz in a different setting. Harrison could be on the summer reading list alongside "Going Postal". [[User:AgProv|AgProv]] ([[User talk:AgProv|talk]]) 20:47, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
==Does anyone know where to find this quotation?==
 
Sometime well after ''The Truth'', William de Worde spouts off arrogantly on the pages of The Times.  There follows a comment that the underlying message of every newspaper column is that the world would be a better place if only it were run by newspaper columnists. Can anyone help me with where I might find this comment?  It's, um, rather timely in American politics right now.[[User:Moishe Rosenbaum|Moishe Rosenbaum]] ([[User talk:Moishe Rosenbaum|talk]]) 00:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
:This is more a discussion of Harry Harrison, of course, but it leads in to the Discworld idea that writers and readers come and go but stories and characters persist, wandering the multiverse like the Music and showing up everywhere like Dibblers. TP borrowed unabashedly from myth and folklore and pop culture and other writers, realising that there aren't any new stories, just new and occasionally better ways of telling them. Shakespeare did the same, with more limited resources.
 
:All of which reminds me of an idea I had a while ago for a section (category?) of literary discussion and criticism of the works focussing on the style and techniques rather than the bare elements of the books. I didn't know how to pitch it or organise it in a wiki format and still don't. Probably it would need [[User:Osiris|Osiris]] to create a new namespace, at least. This page threatens to become a version of the theme and we should probably come up with some alternative before poor Moishe needs an archive. I attach my original thoughts and invite suggestions on where this might be moved from his user page.
 
:(December 21, 2012) ''New Category?''
 
:''We have often dealt in literary criticism and meta-analysis of the stories in various discussion pages. An idea occurs to me for a category of articles in this vein describing and analysing The Author's style, devices, influences, strengths and foibles.''
 
:''I worry, though, about the danger of ill-thought-out, half-baked opinion (which I have decried for years in the general pages) but we have some competent critics (many more on the old roster) who can provide some insight. The old discussion pages have been installed in the new wiki and these could be scavenged for ideas. I would suggest that these articles be required to provide paragraphs of reasoning and examples, one-or-two-sentence statements of opinion disqualified. Then there's the problem of enforcing that rule: annotation was once to be restricted to annotation pages as well.''
 
:''Should these be organised as conventional pages, where topics can be modified and expanded with discussion in Talk pages or as individual essays like critiques in other media? Should it be tried at all?'' --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 01:06, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 
:...cricket sounds. No, I couldn't come up with a plan either. Anyway, although it may be late for the school year, we forgot [http://www.lspace.org/books/analysis/index.html this]. --[[User:Old Dickens|Old Dickens]] ([[User talk:Old Dickens|talk]]) 19:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
:I like the idea I just don't have a good idea on how it would be set up which would be rather important. I feel that it could get messy very quickly if not set up well. --[[User:Zdm|Zdm]] ([[User talk:Zdm|talk]]) 00:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 00:41, 8 August 2024

Vetinari. Vampire?

I was just listening to Guybrush and friends on Pratchat's Night Watch episode. They were discussing young Vetinari, and how Lord V always plays the long game politically. Or the longest game. And they discussed his relationship with his "Aunt," who (Pratchat suggested) may very well not be an actual Aunt. As well as the similarities between Lady Margolotta and Lady Meserole.

I remember the gut punch I felt the first time I read Unseen Academicals when Glenda says in her internal monologue, "they say he [Vetinari] is a vampire..."

It seemed a throwaway line, as she was musing (I think) about the upcoming dinner being thrown for the footballers by the Wizards, to which Vetinari was invited. But Pratchett doesn't throw away lines.

I've always thought of Vetinari as Ankh Morpork's version of Margolotta.

[Okay, time for class, more to come here. I have some textual evidence I'll bring forth. In the meantime... have we ever seen Vetinari out in the direct sunlight? He wears the signet ring that nearly burns Moist at one point... probably we have, but there's that line repeated multiple times about how he seems to be awake and working at all hours...]Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 00:54, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Now... some evidence-like substance.

We know that reformed B-word-less vampires transfer their craving, their *obsessiveness*, to something else. Coffee. Photography. Political manipulations in Uberwald. Vetinari is obsessed, too - with the city of Ankh-Morpork. He even says so, in a line that seems like it should be accompanied by a maniacal laugh, I think in Making Money: "It's about the city. It's always about the city."

I'm not sure where I stand on Vetinari's blood-relation (sorry, wrong word) to Meserole. I agree with Pratchat that they seem to say "Aunt" way too often. But... My own crazy thought is that Lady Meserole and Margolotta are *THE SAME PERSON*. And she could indeed by Vetinari's aunt. In NW, she swoops in from far away and insinuates herself into powerful political circles, creating change that works to her benefit in the long term. Who says she didn't swoop into Uberwald after the Dark War to do the same thing, the endgame of which we saw in T5E? She behaves differently while executing her machinations in Ankh Morpork, but she blends in culturally for her ends. I suspect she recognized that Nephew Havelock would be the right person at the right time in AM, so she installed him and now they rule two parts of the continent jointly.

Or not.

I have always felt that Pratchett himself had a long game in mind for these characters, but ran out of Time to tell the story. Vampires, though... live many human life spans. Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

This conspiracy theory mania is getting out of hand. Have you found any basement dungeons in pizza parlours that don't have basements lately? Sam Vimes doesn't miss much and if the Patrician were a Vampire he would be very annoyed and we would have heard about it. Never mind that Angua would smell him at fifty yards. On the other hand, I always doubted that Lady Roberta was a blood relation (although I wrote a fanfic on the idea that she was his mother's sister, just on the Pratchettian idea of "what if?"). She may just have noticed him as someone useful to the movement, or just interesting to a cougar (female "funny uncle"?). It's all speculation. I also suggest that she's an agent of Margolotta's intelligence network and the connection between M and V. --Old Dickens (talk) 02:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
However improbable, the Vampire idea isn't original. See Talk:Havelock Vetinari#Age quibble. --Old Dickens (talk) 03:13, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
True, Vetinari's devotion to the city hasn't been explained (to me). Why does the greatest mind of his generation apply his talents to the care and feeding of this big dirty, smelly, grotty accumulation of humanoids? Of course, it might be that it's the grandest vision of SimCity in the metaverse and the only game that challenges him. He seems to get nothing out of the office except the chance to play the game (and perhaps to improve the city, which would lead back to the original question). --Old Dickens (talk) 04:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
I played SimCity once, in something like 1994. That's a fascinating idea. I wonder, are there any direct references that could be to the video game? The only thing I can think of offhand is, if you didn't put in the correct code from the manual, then the game assumed it was being played with pirated software, and your city was attacked by a dragon within minutes. (I know your SimCity comparison is not necessarily literal; you've described the most likely Vetinari motivation I can think of. Yet I wonder... TP plays multidimensional chess, there could easily be subtle references that I'd miss.)
You're right that Angua would sniff Vetinari out instantly if he were in fact a vampire. I can't think, though, of a scene with both Angua and Vetinari in. Look, you're probably right that I'm engaging in Koom Valley Codex-level conspiracies here. But abf is defunct. If not on my talkpage, then where else?  :-) Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 19:37, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Annotations

I wish we had the old Biers discussion page for administrators, but no... You apparently allow editing of annotations, which hasn't been usual, annotations being regarded as personal opinions which couldn't be gainsaid. This seemed to make them very popular; I spent two years fighting with people about them, but I had no support for any controls. I applaud the recent edit of Rufus Drumknott, but what is the policy?
(You may also need an archive here soon; partly my fault, I suppose.)--Old Dickens (talk) 02:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Huh. I wasn't active in the early years of this wiki, so I must have entirely missed that discussion. On one hand, I am absolutely respectful of a community consensus, and so won't remove others' annotations any more now that I know of how they've traditionally been regarded here; but a consensus from 2006 or so should likely be revisited.

If you're asking my personal view, I suppose I'd suggest that annotations should at least be plausibly specific. That is, if someone's opinion is that a Pratchett scene is based on / related to something in history or literature, they should make their case, and other editors should default to leaving that case visible. However, if the link to Pratchett's scene is in no way specific, we should remove it.

To take an absurd example - let's pretend that Gaspode had just appeared in Pratchett's works in, say, 2010. The annotation that I'd sigh and let stand would say something like "Gaspode the talking dog might be a reference to the talking dog in The Family Guy." The annotation I'd remove would be "Gaspode the dog might be a reference to the basketball playing dog in Air Bud." What's the difference? Plausible specificity. Gaspode's primary distinguishing trait is that he is a dog *who can talk* - as is the Family Guy dog. I don't see any specific relationship between the Air Bud dog and Gaspode, other than them just being talented dogs.

Now, the annotation that would make my heart leap with joy would demonstrate external-to-the-novels evidence that TP was a Family Guy fan, and would show even another layer of specificity in the annotation - perhaps Gaspode had used several phrases directly from the TV show or something. That's the type of annotation that the APF is - was - full of, the kind I'd love to see more of. Yet I kinda think that on a wiki, we have to put up with some of the less-specific annotations in order to get the awesome ones, the same way panning for gold requires one's hands to get quite mucky before the good stuff filters out.

Old Dickens, you're the, well, old hand at administrating here, so I'm just putting in my two pence where I've been asked. I'd love to hear what Guybrush or Jagra or (if they're around) AgProv think nowadays. Happy to move this conversation off my talk page if that'd be better. [Oh, and would you be able to point me to somewhere to learn how to archive? You're right that this talk page is getting long and ancient... :-)Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 21:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I'd love a new consensus on annotations with some kind of rein on the inanity; we can move to the Mended Drum. My point was always that if an annotation was useful and supportable it should be in the body of the article and editable like anything else. Annotation pages are also available. To archive, just create a page and copy the form from the Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:Mended Drum/Archive 1, correcting the specifics. Then cut and paste whatever chunk you want. I should do one myself. --Old Dickens (talk) 22:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
I just came across a precursor to this discussion from 2011! See Discworld & Pratchett Wiki:User talk:Old Dickens/Archive 1#Threshold of evidence. --Old Dickens (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Futbol

oh. yeah. The women have been a power for a while. The men are slowly catching up, but there isn't much excuse for the national side or Toronto FC in a country chock-a-block with immigrants from football-mad countries around the world. (Alphonso Davies isn't a great penalty kicker, unfortunately.) --Old Dickens (talk) 00:16, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah. A big problem with US Men's soccer has been exactly the "chock-a-block with immigrants" issue. Those immigrants were never represented on the national team, or in the US youth system. For all the money US soccer spent, they would have done better simply plucking the best teenager from every New York, Los Angeles, or Houston city park. I'm finally seeing some ethnic diversity on our team - and they're playing well. Go figure. <shrug> Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, that was quick. Guybrush wins our pool by a point, but Sanity/Leo were always more likely. --Old Dickens (talk) 21:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Blockage

You got one! One point: we don't usually block forever, because that ip will be blocked for whomever inherits it. A week would probably do; I've generally made it six months. --Old Dickens (talk) 00:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Got it! Changing now... Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 00:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Headquarters says we shouldn't block ip addresses for the time being. Unfortunately, selective unblocking doesn't seem to be available, despite the instruction. --Old Dickens (talk) 15:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC) - Ah, but it's easy with Change Block in the log. --Old Dickens (talk) 17:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone know where to find this quotation?

Sometime well after The Truth, William de Worde spouts off arrogantly on the pages of The Times. There follows a comment that the underlying message of every newspaper column is that the world would be a better place if only it were run by newspaper columnists. Can anyone help me with where I might find this comment? It's, um, rather timely in American politics right now.Moishe Rosenbaum (talk) 00:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

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