User talk:GallifreyanWitch

OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere. --Verity (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

Thoughts

Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari

POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:

• Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
• Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
• Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
• Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--Verity (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:

Year (UC)	Vetinari's Age	Current affairs
1939 or 1940	Possible Year of Birth
1941	1/2
1942	2/3
1943	3/4
1944	4/5
1945	5/6
1946	6/7
1947	7/8
1948	8/9
1949	9/10
1950	10/11	Joins the Guild of Assassins?
1951	11/12	Joins the Guild of Assassins?
1952	12/13
1953	13/14
1954	14/15
1955	15/16
1956	16/17
1957	17/18	Night Watch
		Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.
		Participates in the Glorious Revolution (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
		Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
1958	18/19
1959	19/20
1960	20/21
1961	21/22
1962	22/23
1963	23/24
1964	24/25	The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic
		Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
1965	25/26
1966	26/27	Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
		Equal Rights
1967	27/28	Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
		Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
1968	28/29	Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, The Truth)
		[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
1969	29/30	Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
		Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
1970	30/31	Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
1971	31/32
1972	32/33
1973	33/34
1974	34/35	Sorcery
		Definitely Patrician.
		Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.
		Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.
1975	35/36
1976	36/37
1977	37/38
1978	38/39
1979	39/40
1980	40/41
1981	41/42
1982	42/43
1983	43/44
1984	44/45	Verence II of Lancre crowned
1985	45/46	Guards! Guards!
		Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive
		Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.
		Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
		Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary
		Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
		Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
		Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
		Witches Abroad - Lillith deposed in Genua
		Moving Pictures
		Vetinari visits the Odeon
		Reaper Man
		Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting
1986	46/47	Men At Arms
		Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.
		Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards [and slight limp for a short while?]
		Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
		Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
		Detritus and Angua join the Watch
		Interesting Times
		Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
		Soul Music
		Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)
		Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
1987	47/48	Feet of Clay
		Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him
		Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
		Movement to free Golems starts
		Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
		Hogfather
1988	48/49	Jingo
		Leshp war with Klatch
		Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.
		Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before
		Vimes created Duke of Ankh
		300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
1989	49/50	The Fifth Elephant
1990	50/51	The Truth
		Wuffles aged 16
		Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent
		Later events of Night Watch
		Birth of Young Sam Vimes
1991	51/52	Going Postal
		Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
1991	51/52	Monstrous Regiment
		Borogravia-Zlobenia War
		THUD!
		Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
		Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.
1992	52/53
1993	53/54
1994	54/55
1995	55/56
1996	56/57	Snuff
1997	57/58
1998	58/59
1999	59/60
2000	60/61

The Patrician's Palace

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems. For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in Guards! Guards!. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)? Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved? The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/ Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are: The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229)) Guards! Guards! Feet of Clay Night Watch

--Verity (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the Menagerie on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. AgProv (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--Verity (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the Pictsie page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration. --Verity (talk) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

...using the page for its usual purpose

Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. (Dromandkass disappeared after planting another little mystery in Mrs Beddowe's House. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --Old Dickens (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --Verity (talk) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face. --Verity (talk) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Dating

I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --Old Dickens (talk) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. However, in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--Verity (talk) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)