User talk:GallifreyanWitch

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OK - I'm not using this page as it is normally used. But it seems a good place to share thoughts and ideas relevant to the Disc and Wiki, without messing up pages or taking up space elsewhere. --Verity (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

Thoughts

Working Out Characters Ages: Vetinari

POTENTIAL SPOILER WARNING

Assuming the Discworld Timeline pages are correct, I'd calculate Vetinari's year of birth as being either 1939 or 1940 based on the assumption he was aged 17 or 18 (and so both older than Vimes' yonger self and in the final year/sixth form equivalent of the guild) during Night Watch. [If he were in the 5th year during Night Watch that could place his year of birth as being 1941 or 1942] For the purposes of my initial thoughts I'm working with the older option. That would make it 1951 when he joined the guild

Note: A gap of 7 years between Night Watch and Colour of Magic (assuming he is the Patrician at that time - which is possible considering he'd be about 24/25). During this time We can assume the Grand Sneer (and meeting with Lady Margolotta) took place and Vetinari assisted Lord Snapcasere: tax on rat tails. If he weren't the patrician in the colour of magic that would make a gap of 17 years during which most of his activities are unknown, apart from graduating from the guild (again?)

Note: As off THUD!, assuming he's been patrician since Sorcery he would have been patrician for 17 years. If he'd been patrician during the Colour of Magic he'll of been in office for 27 years.

Note: It's interesting theres a gap of 10 years between The Colour of Magic and Sorcery - plenty of time for him to lose weight (following one theory)and wonder what was going on all that time

Note: recent events much easier to document. There also seems a higher frequency of his involvement in more recent stories.

Of course, we are assuming there aren't a seventh or eighth form in the guild - this being the disc. On that basis, assuming he's in either seventh or eighth form during Night Watch he may have joined the guild a year or two earlier than normally considered. Could this impact age/dates?

And then of course, it might be that he doesn't age entirely normally - considering Rincewind's hourglass looks as if it had been blown by a gassblower with hiccups, what if the same applied to other hourglasses.

Events yet to be placed:

  • Making Money - Vetinari starts taking care of Mr Fusspot (aged 52/53?)
  • Unseen Academicals - Visit of an Orc, redevelopment of Football (Aged 53/54?)
  • Raising Steam (Aged 56<?)
  • Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day

Just added potential date for Snuff. Perhaps someday I'll add the combined timeline I've been working on for Moist, Susan, Carrot,Vimes, Rincewind, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax and, most recently, Young Sam.--Verity (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

My worked out timeline so far - extra info is provided for context:

Year (UC) Vetinari's Age Current affairs
1939 or 1940 Possible Year of Birth
1941 1/2
1942 2/3
1943 3/4
1944 4/5
1945 5/6
1946 6/7
1947 7/8
1948 8/9
1949 9/10
1950 10/11 Joins the Guild of Assassins?
1951 11/12 Joins the Guild of Assassins?
1952 12/13
1953 13/14
1954 14/15
1955 15/16
1956 16/17
1957 17/18 Night Watch
Assassinates (through fear) Patrician Lord Winder.
Participates in the Glorious Revolution (fought on the side of the watchmen and wears lilac in remembrance)
Vimes a year younger??? Sybil Aged 16?
1958 18/19
1959 19/20
1960 20/21
1961 21/22
1962 22/23
1963 23/24
1964 24/25 The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic
Fire spreads through Ankh-Morpork
1965 25/26
1966 26/27 Moist von Lipwig's Birth?
Equal Rights
1967 27/28 Keli becomes Queen of Sto Lat
Mort and Ysabell become Duke and Duchess of Sto Helit?
1968 28/29 Graduation from the Guild of Assassins with full honors (Sachrissa Cripslock, Twurp's Peerage, The Truth)
[Might only be latest graduation - post graduate program]
1969 29/30 Birth and orphaning of Carrot Ironfoundersson
Lancre sent forward in time by 15 years and may have taken Cohen the Barbarian with it
1970 30/31 Approx year of Susan Sto Helit's Birth
1971 31/32
1972 32/33
1973 33/34
1974 34/35 Sorcery
Definitely Patrician.
Vetinari temporarily turned into a lizard.
Feels uncomfortable around glass and has an urge to catch flies with his tongue for a short time afterwards.
1975 35/36
1976 36/37
1977 37/38
1978 38/39
1979 39/40
1980 40/41
1981 41/42
1982 42/43
1983 43/44
1984 44/45 Verence II of Lancre crowned
1985 45/46 Guards! Guards!
Vimes mentions Vetinari's aunt (Lady Roberta Meserole) suggesting she's alive
Temporarily deposed and 'imprisoned' within the palace dungeons. Leaves of own free will and resumes patricianship.
Lupine Wonse (secretary) plots against Vetinari. Dies.
Rufus Drumknott becomes patricians secretary
Carrot Ironfoundersson joins the Night Watch
Mustrum Ridcully becomes Archchancellor of UU
Hughnon Ridcully becomes High Priest of Blind Io
Witches Abroad - Lillith deposed in Genua
Moving Pictures
Vetinari visits the Odeon
Reaper Man
Discusses taxes with the university and holds a meeting
1986 46/47 Men At Arms
Attempted assassination by Edward d'Eath using the gonne.
Shot in the leg by the gonne. Walks with a cane afterwards [and slight limp for a short while?]
Vimes and Sybil marry and Vimes knighted and promoted to Commander of the Watch
Carrot Ironfoundersson promted to Captain
Detritus and Angua join the Watch
Interesting Times
Genghiz Cohen conquers Agatean Empire
Soul Music
Mentions Vetinari's interests in music, thoughts on the city and work with informants (including Foul Ole' Ron!)
Verence II marries Magrat Garlick
1987 47/48 Feet of Clay
Plot against Vetinari using arsenic in a candle to poison him
Dorfl and Cheery join the Watch
Movement to free Golems starts
Cable Street Particulars reformed into plianclothes detectives
Hogfather
1988 48/49 Jingo
Leshp war with Klatch
Visits Klatch and Leshp with Nobbs, Colon and Leonard da Quirm.
Shows understanding of Klatchian language and ability to juggle despite never having done so before
Vimes created Duke of Ankh
300th Anniversary of Ankh-Morpork Civil War
1989 49/50 The Fifth Elephant
1990 50/51 The Truth
Wuffles aged 16
Plot against Vetinari, framing him for the attempted murder of Drumknott - proven innocent
Later events of Night Watch
Birth of Young Sam Vimes
1991 51/52 Going Postal
Refounding of post-office under Moist von Lipwig (who is also entrusted with the clacks)
1991 51/52 Monstrous Regiment
Borogravia-Zlobenia War
THUD!
Peace treaty signed between Low King of the Dwarves and Diamond King of the Trolls
Wuffles deceased. Buried in palace garden and visited by Vetinari weekly.
1992 52/53
1993 53/54
1994 54/55
1995 55/56
1996 56/57 Snuff
1997 57/58
1998 58/59
1999 59/60
2000 60/61

The Patrician's Palace

Is there a definitive guide/plan to the palace? Things seem a little.. unclear at the moment.

While the palace probably contained numerous secret passage ways before Vetinari's time in office I can't help but wonder whether Vetinari started influencing the building of the palace before that time. Old secret passageways would surely have been found/known by staff etc over time, so to have truly secret passageways might they be new?

Also, I must admit I play Sims 3 and have been attempting to work out a rough layout of the palace. It's quite a useful tool as it helps to work out possible schematic problems. For example, where would Vetinari's bedroom be? I read somewhere it would be (or is assumed to be) next to the oblong office. Yet it would also need to be able to be accessed - presumably by corridor - and I would assume it would have a window/windows. These aspects in themselves aren't to problematic, until you consider it also has to be adjacent to the Great Hall - a wall of it had been taken out during the Dragon's rulership in Guards! Guards!. I've racked my brains and can't quite work it out - either the rooms really big, not directly adjacent to the office, lacking windows or rather difficulty located as far as I can see.

Considering the age of the palace there must be a lot of grand old rooms. There would also probably be a servant's block. Images frequently show other buildings along the walls surrounding the palace - including the stables (including for the racehorse?)? Is there a courtroom included, or is this separate? In The Science of Discworld IV the Great Hall is converted for this purpose, yet major crimes and crimes against the city are dealt with by the Patrician - so might this case be due to the importance of the case and number of people involved? The Barbican has recently been converted into government offices - was it originally a defensive structure related to the Winter/Patrician's Palace?

Current sources are the books, Map (e.g. in The Complete Ankh-Morpork), Artistic impression of the City (either the Ipad app, video for the app or reverse of the Map in The Complete Ankh-Morpork) and the rather impressive plan - if unclear in terms of canonical accuracy - here: http://plans-design-draughting.co.uk/ankh-morpork-details/ Books the palace (and it's layout/features) is mentioned in are: The Science of Discworld IV: Judgement Day - mentions the Great Hall (chapter 15 (p206) onwards) and the Black Gallery (Chapter 17 (p229)) Guards! Guards! Feet of Clay Night Watch

--Verity (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

hi Verity, just noticed this. Interesting concept! You must have looked up one of the Ankh-Morpork city maps to get the general ground-plan of the Palace? It's set in very extensive grounds which are shaped like a rough oval, squared off at the city centre end, encompassed by the sweeping curves of the BroadWays, facing the Guild of Thieves (the old Court House) and the Butchers' Guild.

The ground plan of the building looks like a step-pyramid, with three steps, narrowing towards the rimwards-by-turnwise. The buildings seem to encompass two internal open spaces. There is no sign of the Menagerie on the plan, however. From notes in the books' text, the building appears to have at least four floors in addition to the dungeons, and large inhabitable attics where Leonard of Quirm is happy to be physically incarcerated. Watch this space for a screen-grab. AgProv (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Ankh-morpork 004.JPG

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yep, it's the maps that mainly triggered the thoughts. What doesn't help is the reverse side of the map/illustration, which in many areas seems quite detailed and yet seems to suggest a slightly different internal layout. It also shows some of the buildings along the walls (perhaps the stables and/or menagerie).

Patricianspalace.PNG

I expect the maps take precedence, but my thoughts keep creeping back to Guards! Guards! when the dragon took up residence in the palace - the reference to the great hall: several walls and floors having been removed, and having an antechamber. Considering the amount of damage done to create Dragons landing/Brickfields and the implied size of the dragon the illustration seems a little more likely in a sense than the map as it appears to have much more room for a large dragon in the middle section. Yet both versions of the map are consistent in the layout of the courtyards/cloisters/etc

--Verity (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


Why is it thoughts you'd been meaning to write always spring up a minute or so after hitting the save/submit/close button?

It also occurred to me the other day when looking at the Pictsie page that the Feegle word for Oblong can be Eldritch, which can also mean strange or weird - almost fitting considering the secret goings on there and the reliance on written words and politics which might well seem strange to a Feegle. It makes me wonder what the Oblong Office would be in pictsie: The Eldritch Hall (which when read in a certain way might sound like hole, referring to the burrows/barrows the Feegles use)? The Eldritch Close (being an enclosed, secretive place)?

And, one final thought on a slightly different note but reminded of by the recent edits to the Patrician's Palace page: I wonder if, out of boredom, Vetinari might devise some more... interesting method of punishing mimes and living statues. If mimes insist on being yet another man silently trying to get out of a glass box, perhaps he'd actually provide a glass box for them to escape (rendering their actions pointless), and if some people are really so keen to become statues perhaps theres some high-up chilly tower somewhere needing a bit of decoration. --Verity (talk) 06:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


Browsing through the Discworld Stamp Catalogue I've just found a stamp featuring the front of the Patrician's Palace - another canonical/semi-canonical reference. Can't enlighten us entirely as to the floorplan, but every little helps. --Verity (talk) 00:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Normal Talk

...using the page for its usual purpose

Re:Vetinari's degrees, that's what I found, of course. (Dromandkass disappeared after planting another little mystery in Mrs Beddowe's House. No one else seems to have an Assassins' Diary. Its nice to make some mention of the source when adding possibly startling new revelations, although we don't have any citations mechanism like Wikipedia.

Also, do remember to sign your Talk posts. --Old Dickens (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Must admit I thought I had signed them - and when I forget I go back and add them - it is difficult though working from a tablet - scolling and inserting links and clicking buttons at the top and applying them to the right place on a page can be problematic. I also suddenly havw an urfe to expand my discworld library with an assassins guild yearbook - shame many of the other yearbooks are quite expensive now --Verity (talk) 07:35, 3 December 2013 (GMT)

Well, I've bought a copy of the Assassins Guild Yearbook and can confirm Vetinari's listed qualifications. If only all the old almanacks were so affordable *watches the Post Office one on Amazon* and if only there were some more coming out in the near future: it's all those little details that are so wonderful and bring a smile to my face. --Verity (talk) 06:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Dating

I believe the published Discworld Calendars refer to Roundworld years because they would be hard to sell otherwise. I calculated years ago that the Discworld calendar lagged ours by twelve years (perhaps due to the time of propagation through the Multiverse - whatever). This offset might also vary because of the different years used, but in any case, as you say, if it were now 2014 UC on Discworld many characters would be improbably old. I wonder why you make Mustrum ten years older than Esmeralda. I would have thought from the text they were closer. (Our debatable Timeline has her three years older, which doesn't sound likely either.) My chronology roughly agrees with yours for Vetinari and Vimes. --Old Dickens (talk) 01:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


I can't remember exactly how I did the workings out, but have based my dating upon the Timeline listed here.

I'm actually really glad you asked, as I haven't checked my timeline for a while and just found both Esme and Mustrum's timelines were misplaced by a year (Esme's quite late on making her older by a year by the end calculations and Mustrum's right at the start earlier by a year). My workings out were very much 'give or take a year' and I now remember getting a little confused about the formatting of the tables along with getting that little mix up resulting from looking at too many boxes in a table. Next week I'll try and revisit it and correct the one I have here like I just have with my personal notes.

Based upon my notes and workings out based on the wiki's timeline, Esmeralda was born in/around 1912, roughly 2 years prior to Mustrum in 1915. Right up until 1969 this number relationship remains the same, with Esme 2 years older. However, in 1969 you have the moving of Lancre into the future by 15 years. I'm guessing the witches personal timelines moved with that shift in time otherwise that seems an extremely long spell to cast from outside the sort of time-shifting- bubble encapsulating the whole of Lancre. Consequently her personal age is frozen at around 55/56 for 15 years, during which time Mustrum's still aging. Aging for Esme recommences in 1984. I might have made a miscalculation here, trying to work out whether to continue Esme's aging at 55/56 or 56/57 - I opted for the latter, but I expect it will take a bit more thought thanks to the wibble-wobbly nature of time. Consequently, by my calculations (and I admit they may well be fallible - but that's why they're still notes and up for discussion) after that 15 years Mustrum is 68/69 (being 53/54 at the time of the start of Lancre's shift into the future) while Esme's timeline resumes at age 56/57 (ish - and that's the option that seems to reduce the age gap between them to 12 rather than 13 years).

I hope that explains it. It's currently a bit late at night/early in the morning to get a better answer at the moment but hopefully a tired brain has tried to put it simply.

--Verity (talk) 03:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Make that 2-3 years approx between Mustrum and Esme's original birth dates/ages. --Verity (talk) 20:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC) Make that

An Experiment...

Something I've been working on for a little while... I wonder if there would be a way to include it on the wiki - I can't find a way to simply embed it. I'll leave it here for now so hopefully can come back to it at a later time: http://www.thinglink.com/scene/609101018046660609 --Verity (talk) 22:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

wow. Impressed. This is definitely addable. How much work and dedication went into this?

Looking at the map also tells me exactly where "Aceria" should go in my fanfic take on the Discworld - in my head the location of an, er, Canada-like country on the Disc had been wobbling around a bit. But now I see it.... (Oh Aceria! From Hub to shining sea!) Start around the Hub and move outwards through all the unclaimed and un-named territory as far as Hudson's Bay, sorry, Whale Bay... Quirmian Aceria would be in there somewwhere, too. AgProv (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Delighted you like it!

Quite a bit of time was spent on tracing. I considered adding colour (beyond an attempt a at a sort of vellum/parchment effect) but decided to keep it simple (especially since it would have taken a lot longer). Around the Hubwards Circle Sea region I also copied the map edge from the Raising Steam map of the region (it has more rivers). Must admit it's also got me thinking a lot about the other blank regions. Wondering about Russia and Spain equivalents at the moment. There's a couple of spots on the map which are different to the others: I'm going to make "close up" maps of those regions, which would enable greater detail, especially since Mrs Bradshaw's guide provides a few maps with new places on them, and on the Rimwards Circle Sea region there's a lot going on within quite a small area, which can't be shown at this scale.

I was also hoping to make a similar map for Ankh-Morpork, possibly with greater detail of individual areas (i.e. click a neighborhood and it will take you to a detailed map of that region). I have been desperate for the past year to properly sit down and try and correlate locations named in The Complete Ankh-Morpork with where they are on the maps - e.g. the shops and pubs and wells. I recently managed to get a highly detailed 1:1 scan of The Complete Ankh-Morpork Map so I could start overlaying it with the Streets of Ankh-Morpork one (which I've had in a digital format for ages now)- each has details the other lacks which might help identify individual properties. Funny thing is, I'm sure I've spotted a few inconsistencies, especially between the drawing on the reverse of the new Ankh-Morpork map and the actual plan of the city itself, which makes things a bit more complicated. I've been trying to draw an image of Ankh-Morpork from the opposite direction to that on the reverse of the map (i.e. Looking down the River Ankh)

All in all, it seems I have a habit of keeping myself busy with Discworld stuff almost to the detriment of everything else. It's so intrinsically rewarding. --Verity (talk) 12:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

The Discworld Spain is almost canonical: it appears in Witches Abroad. of course, as The Place Where They Do That Thing With The Bulls... (Olé!). Wintersmith introduces a people who speak a suspiciously Russian-like language; Far Uberwald and Zlobenia have an interestingly Russia-like vibe going on. AgProv (talk) 14:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

First, will the map work as a wiki page? If so, why not install it? Suggestions and discussion could then carry on in its talk page without overloading this one. If not, what to do with it? It would remain just an external link. --Old Dickens (talk) 14:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Oh yes - forgotten about those references - I just don't recall names being attached - need a reread methinks. It's a shame the atlas that was meant to be published in 2014 wasn't. It would answer so many questions and blank spots on the map - though it would probably result in a lot of redrawing (and the hubwards sea coast, I'm finding, is a bit of a nightmare as the different versions don't quite match up).
I really don't know whether it will work as a wiki page, unfortunately. If it was possible to embed things from external sources it should - but so far I haven't found a way. My original intention was to experiment with it here, but I couldn't find a way to embed it. I've seen some sites (admittedly thinking An Archive of Our Own and Tumblr)offer rich text or HTML editing - I've found it works (not perfectly, but to a certain extent) with both of these sites, where they seem to treat it like a video. I've looked around and unfortunately can't find any alternative free website/programs.Perhaps I'm missing something, but I think this might be a coding matter - which I've absolutely no experience of. My mind is now drifting towards learning some coding and making a dedicated website with java or something...

My intention with using this format was that it's a little easier to read without being overly cluttered and/or having to match numbers to places. Having said that, I'd be happy to upload named/numbered versions as simple images to use on the wiki - I could easily see a single spot being used to point out a site on some of the pages about different location and simplified, regionalised maps with links underneath (i.e. Whole Map with links to Klatchian continent, Hub, Ramtops, Sto Plains, etc --> Map of Sto Plains with Links to cities, etc which link either directly to pages or to further maps etc, etc...). It's a bit more of a clunky, slow method, but should, I think, maintain a level of visuals and interactivity - almost like clicking a 'zoom in' (or 'pan' for moving according to compass points) button on Google Earth. It would certainly be a decent work around without any risk of braking the wiki or need to work on coding. Images are images: we can edit them to meet our needs. --Verity (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)